An Opportunity for Russ

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Pro-Truth

Jesus is the answer-not any religious organization of any kind.

This false theory just proves that we can't just pick up the Bible and read it and expect to come up up with a knowledge of the truth that is necessary for our salvation.

“So Philip ran to him,and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet,and asked,"Do you understand what you are reading?" And he said, "How can I,unless some one guides me?" And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. Now the p***age of the scripture which he was reading was this:"As a sheep led to the slaughter or a lamb before its shearer is dumb,so he opens not his mouth. In his humiliation justice was denied him.Who can describe his generation? For his life is taken up from the earth." And the eunuch said to Philip,"About whom, pray, does the prophet say this,about himself or about some one else?" Then Philip opened his mouth,and beginning with this scripture he told him the good news of Jesus.” Acts 8:30-35

[Father_JD]

This was BEFORE the NT was inscripturated. But please note that God sent Philip to explain this to him. He didn't "pray" one way or another for theological truth.

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

This was BEFORE the New Testament was inscripturated,Mesenja. But please note that God sent Philip to explain this to him. He didn't "pray" one way or another for theological truth.

The burden of proof is still on you to provide proof that supports this Protestant presupposition. Where in the Bible does it tell us that the doctrine of Sola Scriptura will become “operational” after the period of enscripturation is over?

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Uh,the text itself proves it,Mesenja. Funny,you don't have the eunuch "praying" to know what it means,but you dO have Phillip explaining it to him, don't you? Christians are exhorted to TEST all things. Not "pray" about them. Why? Because God knows how easily DECEIVED people can be...hey! Just like you are!!!

You don't have the eunuch opening up the Bible and having the Holy Spirit guide him to a correct understanding of the scriptures either. That's why if you put two theologians in the same room together you get three different opinions. Where are the modern day Phillips?

[nrajeff]

I have several modern-day Phillips in my toolbox, as well as a couple of screwdrivers for slotted screws

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

I have several modern-day Phillips in my toolbox, as well as a couple of screwdrivers for slotted screws

Another two points for the jeffster! Well done!

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Oh,Messy...how many times do you have to be told that Christ's Church is TRANS-DENOMINATIONAL??

Think outside of the Mormon-mind-conditioned "box",dude.

How many times are you going to resort to juvenile name calling? The name I used for this forum is Mesenja. I guess the chances of you growing up and using my proper forum name would be never wouldn't it?

The Bible speaks only of one flock not many. Also Paul spoke of the church as the metaphorical body of Christ. He spoke of only one body,one faith,and one Lord. Not the thousands of trans-denominational bodies that this false doctrine would entail.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

How many times are you going to resort to juvenile name calling? The name I used for this forum is Mesenja. I guess that would be never wouldn't it?

The Bible speaks only of one flock not many. Also Paul spoke of the church as the metaphorical body of Christ. He spoke of only one body,one faith,and one Lord. Not the thousands of trans-denominational bodies that this false doctrine would entail.

Do you all go to the same Ward? Are there not different Stakes all over the church? Have you come to a unity of your faith? I have been witnessing to the LDS for many years now.. I have heard so many different idea's of salvation I gave up trying to find a connection in what mormons believe must be done to gain eternal life.. So say be baptized, others say more in needed like marriage, and still other say plural marriage is required. Some tech that salvation is a goal that can only be reached at judgment, others say it's possible to know in this life.. Some teach that sin can be forgiven Once but if you sin a second time ****ation follows..

I have talked to most if not all the Christians I have seen on this site.. We have exchanged out faith in Christ.. We believe that He is our Salvation.. That we are saved NOW not in a distant future. We believe that this salvation come by God's grace through faith in Jesus plus NOTHING.. I have never asked any of these my brothers and sisters what church they belong to, I DON'T CARE.. The question is "Are you His child through His grace by faith?" That is all that matters.. In short We have come to a Unity of the Faith.. Denominations are not what makes us Christian, they can't save. They can give us a place to worship Him where we feel His Spirit better than the others. I personally don't like the Rock church.. I am an old stick in the mud grandpa.. I like the old Hymns the quite contemplative worship.. Not that I also don't enjoy the praise times but a whole meeting of that would not suite me.. I know other disagree with that and it's OK.. The central message remains the same.. IT'S ALL ABOUT JESUS!!! Surely the Church has come to a unity of our faith, mormonism has NOT... IHS jim

[Jill]

General Reminder and Warning:

Please refer to other members of the board by their correct usernames. Anything else will be considered baiting and you will be warned.

Thank you!

[Jill]

Fig-bearing Thistle, you wrote, "Either we will rip your testimony and your sincere expression of faith to shreds as you watch, ...or we will congratulate you for mustering enough personal courage to share something personal and sacred, even though we may disagree with it."

No one will "rip" anyone's testimony and their "sincere expression of faith to shreds"--LDS or Christian--it simply will not be tolerated.

And if someone tries it, I would like to know about it.

We may disagree theologically but the bottom line is we care about the souls of our brothers and sisters or none of us would be here talking, would we?

So, there will be no "ripping" of anyone's faith to shreds on this board. Why should that even be necessary? Logical, fair arguments based on historical and theological points are always the best choice. Once anger enters the picture people stop listening and resort to fighting--not a good scenario and one we hope to avoid here.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Jill

Fig-bearing Thistle, you wrote, "Either we will rip your testimony and your sincere expression of faith to shreds as you watch, ...or we will congratulate you for mustering enough personal courage to share something personal and sacred, even though we may disagree with it."

No one will "rip" anyone's testimony and their "sincere expression of faith to shreds"--LDS or Christian--it simply will not be tolerated.

And if someone tries it, I would like to know about it.

We may disagree theologically but the bottom line is we care about the souls of our brothers and sisters or none of us would be here talking, would we?

So, there will be no "ripping" of anyone's faith to shreds on this board. Why should that even be necessary? Logical, fair arguments based on historical and theological points are always the best choice. Once anger enters the picture people stop listening and resort to fighting--not a good scenario and one we hope to avoid here.

Thanks, Jill. This is re-***uring. WM is a far better atmosphere than CARM.

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Do you all go to the same Ward? Are there not different Stakes all over the church? Have you come to a unity of your faith? I have been witnessing to the LDS for many years now.. I have heard so many different idea's of salvation I gave up trying to find a connection in what Mormons believe must be done to gain eternal life.. So say be baptized,others say more in needed like marriage,and still other say plural marriage is required. Some teach that salvation is a goal that can only be reached at judgment,others say it's possible to know in this life.. Some teach that sin can be forgiven Once but if you sin a second time ****ation follows..

I have talked to most if not all the Christians I have seen on this site.. We have exchanged out faith in Christ.. We believe that He is our Salvation.. That we are saved NOW not in a distant future. We believe that this salvation come by God's grace through faith in Jesus plus NOTHING.. I have never asked any of these my brothers and sisters what church they belong to, I DON'T CARE.. The question is "Are you His child through His grace by faith?" That is all that matters.. In short We have come to a Unity of the Faith.. Denominations are not what makes us Christian, they can't save. They can give us a place to worship Him where we feel His Spirit better than the others. I personally don't like the Rock church.. I am an old stick in the mud grandpa.. I like the old Hymns the quite contemplative worship.. Not that I also don't enjoy the praise times but a whole meeting of that would not suite me.. I know other disagree with that and it's OK.. The central message remains the same.. IT'S ALL ABOUT JESUS!!! Surely the Church has come to a unity of our faith,Mormonism has NOT... IHS Jim

And when you have finished doing that please show us where in the Bible is there an index of essential and non essential doctrines.

[nrajeff]

In reply to Jim's questions:

Do you all go to the same Ward? Are there not different Stakes all over the church? Have you come to a unity of your faith?

No matter what ward you attend on a given Sunday, the teachings will be far more uniform and consistent with all the other wards than what you find out in Evangelicalland, Jim. In fact, one complaint from antis is that our teachings are TOO uniform--they say it's weird how the teaching curriculum comes from central leadership (the apostles) and is followed all over the world. They say it's not how Jesus would run His church. And yet here you are, implying that we aren't consistent enough? Pray tell how much more consistent you expect Christ's church to be.

And to answer your other question: No, the LDS have NOT come to the degree of unity of the faith that St. Paul mentioned was the goal for Christ's church. (Eph. 4) That's why we still believe that apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, and evangelists are needed in the church: It has NOT "attained to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ." We have NOT yet stopped being "infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and ****n here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming." We are not yet "speaking the truth in love in all things" and "grown up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ." One sign that we have not yet reached that unity of faith is the fact that we still need and have prophets and apostles. Someday, when Christianity "grows up" to the extent that Paul hoped for the church, then it will become unnecessary to call apostles and prophets to tell us what God wants us to do, because we will have become sufficiently spiritually mature that we won't need them.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

In reply to Jim's questions:



No matter what ward you attend on a given Sunday, the teachings will be far more uniform and consistent with all the other wards than what you find out in Evangelicalland, Jim. In fact, one complaint from antis is that our teachings are TOO uniform--they say it's weird how the teaching curriculum comes from central leadership (the apostles) and is followed all over the world. They say it's not how Jesus would run His church. And yet here you are, implying that we aren't consistent enough? Pray tell how much more consistent you expect Christ's church to be.

And to answer your other question: No, the LDS have NOT come to the degree of unity of the faith that St. Paul mentioned was the goal for Christ's church. (Eph. 4) That's why we still believe that apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, and evangelists are needed in the church: It has NOT "attained to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ." We have NOT yet stopped being "infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and ****n here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming." We are not yet "speaking the truth in love in all things" and "grown up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ." One sign that we have not yet reached that unity of faith is the fact that we still need and have prophets and apostles. Someday, when Christianity "grows up" to the extent that Paul hoped for the church, then it will become unnecessary to call apostles and prophets to tell us what God wants us to do, because we will have become sufficiently spiritually mature that we won't need them.

Very well stated, Jeff. You cannot achieve unity of the faith w/o Apostles, Prophets, etc. Though some may think they can do it with strictly evangelists.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

Russ,

I don't believe I have ever seen a personal affirmation of faith from you.

Im going though the many posts on this topic...but right off the bat this first comment reads very personal.....
I like the way fig has not attacked anyone here, but left the door open for more conversation...

it also is interesting that fig actually seems to know and care a great deal about some very personal matters concerning Russ.....

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Im going though the many posts on this topic...but right off the bat this first comment reads very personal.....
I like the way fig has not attacked anyone here, but left the door open for more conversation...

it also is interesting that fig actually seems to know and care a great deal about some very personal matters concerning Russ.....

Russ doesn't post here any more. To meet him go to http://forums.carm.org/vbb/forumdisp...nism-%28LDS%29 IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Im going though the many posts on this topic...but right off the bat this first comment reads very personal.....
I like the way fig has not attacked anyone here, but left the door open for more conversation...

it also is interesting that fig actually seems to know and care a great deal about some very personal matters concerning Russ.....

Just today this topic was suggested for us to review, and so i have just finished going over the posts by Fig recorded here.

And I think that these posts by fig are the very BEST EXAMPLE OF GOOD MANNERS I have yet seen from anyone!
from start to finish I look at Fig's posts and see a calm person, a witty person, a person with clearly strong religious views but who is never being blinded by them into being rude to others who disagree with him.

I think this topic is something that people should refer others to as a lesson in "How to disagree with cl***"

Fig shows a lot of cl*** here....

[neverending]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Just today this topic was suggested for us to review, and so i have just finished going over the posts by Fig recorded here.

And I think that these posts by fig are the very BEST EXAMPLE OF GOOD MANNERS I have yet seen from anyone!
from start to finish I look at Fig's posts and see a calm person, a witty person, a person with clearly strong religious views but who is never being blinded by them into being rude to others who disagree with him.

I think this topic is something that people should refer others to as a lesson in "How to disagree with cl***"

Fig shows a lot of cl*** here....

Since Fig has p***ed on to his just rewards, then I say high time we move on and talk about something else. He hadn't been posting here for some time and of course he can't come back and respond to anything now. Eternity is a very, very long time and he was told over and over again the true gospel of Jesus Christ. He chose NOT to accept that gospel but to embrace a lie and a cult. Knowing that what is taught in the Holy Scriptures is true, it is sad to say that Fig is not with God.

[alanmolstad]

I think, (being that I just learned of his death this week), that I would enjoy hearing of others who might have also noticed that Fig was one of the few voices that was never rude that posted on this forum.
So yes perhaps I might make a new topic when I get some free time next week, where people might be encouraged to remember him and share experiences...

Seems a fitting way to remember a member of this message board that has now p***ed on.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I think, (being that I just learned of his death this week), that I would enjoy hearing of others who might have also noticed that Fig was one of the few voices that was never rude that posted on this forum.
So yes perhaps I might make a new topic when I get some free time next week, where people might be encouraged to remember him and share experiences...

Seems a fitting way to remember a member of this message board that has now p***ed on.

And yet Fig did call others uneducated.. Yes it is a mild attack but still personal.. Was he speaking of a person that posts here without opportunity to become educated? No the net is filled with LDS teachings and sites that are pro LDS.. That leaves lazy? Are all those that are uneducated in the ways and teaching of mormonism lazy? Isn't that what Fig was saying? Is that kind, was that respectful without being rude? So was he really never rude? That is a statement given to eulogize a fallen friend not a look at his real life.. IHS jim

[TrueBlue?]

Originally Posted by Pro-Truth

Psalm 51:5 clearly teaches that we have sinful nature from birth: "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me".

Gotta love the atonement.

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
(Rom 5:18-19 KJV)

That verse no longer applies for us, Christ paid the price for Adams sin which we are no longer held accountable for.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by James Banta

And yet Fig did call others uneducated.. ...

if that's the worst comment a guy is known for after years and years of debates?.....if thats it?...if thats all you got?

Let me ask you something...
Where are the real nasty comments that Fig must have made?

I mean from you guy's reaction to my few words about my memory of Fig you must be thinking of tons and tons of truly nasty comments that Fig must have made to get you guys so worked up like this right?

Surly you can point out tons of Fig's posts that are profane to justify the way you carry on so?

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

Gotta love the atonement.

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
(Rom 5:18-19 KJV)

That verse no longer applies for us, Christ paid the price for Adams sin which we are no longer held accountable for.

Many, but not you. lol

[TrueBlue?]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

Many, but not you. lol

Are you saying some could have been saved without Christ's atonement?

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

Are you saying some could have been saved without Christ's atonement?

Father Abraham?