Is your Salvation Arbitrary or Works-Based?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by True Believer

Yes, but that doesn't mean that they are not equal.

Equal for what exactly?

[TrueBlue?]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Here is the verse that you quoted in context.

Why did you quote this section of scripture because it is not speaking about salvation?

Did you even bother looking at the context of the surrounding verses before you quoted it?

Acts 5
27*The apostles were brought in and made to appear before the Sanhedrin to be questioned by the high priest.
28*“We gave you strict orders not to teach in this name,” he said. “Yet you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and are determined to make us guilty of this man’s blood.”
29*Peter and the other apostles replied: “We must obey God rather than human beings!
30*The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead—whom you killed by hanging him on a cross. 31*God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins.
32*We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

I don't see how the context changes anything. In fact it helps make my point. We must obey God, who gives His Holy Spirit to those that obey Him.

So is this a works based scripture?

[TrueBlue?]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Equal for what exactly?

Equally necessary for Christ's grace.

Faith and works, not by faith alone.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

I don't see how the context changes anything. In fact it helps make my point. We must obey God, who "has given to those who obey him.

So is this a works based scripture.

This section of scripture is not speaking about salvation yet you quoted it in our discussion about salvation.

Remember that Christians believe in obeying Christ and in doing good works but salvation is not based on works. In Mormonism salvation/exaltation is based on works. That is one major distinction between us.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

Equally necessary for Christ's grace.

Why do you believe that you earn grace and earn slvation by doing works when the NT is clear that our works do not contribute for salvation?

[TrueBlue?]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Why do you believe that you earn grace and earn slvation by doing works when the NT is clear that our works do not contribute for salvation?

CFR on the scripture that states our works do not "contribute" for salvation.

Who said anything about earning, He gives His grace to those who love Him.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

CFR on the scripture that states our works do not "contribute" for salvation.

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

[TrueBlue?]

Originally Posted by Billyray

This section of scripture is not speaking about salvation yet you quoted it in our discussion about salvation.

If it is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that sanctifies us then according to this verse Acts 5:32, what is it one must do to receive the Holy Spirit?

Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Remember that Christians believe in obeying Christ and in doing good works but salvation is not based on works. In Mormonism salvation/exaltation is based on works. That is one major distinction between us.

That is the difference between you and the Bible.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

If it is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that sanctifies us then according to this verse Acts 5:32, what is it one must do to receive the Holy Spirit?

That is the difference between you and the Bible.

If you have to do works in order to recieve the Holy Spirit then this should be a consistent teaching throughout the NT but it is not. And this goes against many NT verses that clearly teach that we are saved by grace through faith and not by works. Below in Acts 10 those who heard the words of Peter received the Holy Spirit without doing any works and they had not even been baptized at this point.

Acts 10
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.
45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.
46 For they heard them speaking in tongues[b] and praising God. Then Peter said,
47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

[TrueBlue?]

Originally Posted by Billyray

If you have to do works in order to recieve the Holy Spirit then this should be a consistent teaching throughout the NT but it is not. And this goes against many NT verses that clearly teach that we are saved by grace through faith and not by works. Below in Acts 10 those who heard the words of Peter received the Holy Spirit without doing any works and they had not even been baptized at this point.

Acts 10
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.
45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.
46 For they heard them speaking in tongues[b] and praising God. Then Peter said,
47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

You are right. Teachings must be consistent and harnomize in the Bible else the Bible becomes untrustworthy. So when we have a scripture that says that the Holy Spirit is given to them who obey

Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Then you offer up scripture that make it appear that those people who heard Peter and had received the Holy Spirit were heathens who knew nothing of God and obeyed none of His commandments who were hearing of God for the first time . One has to stop and think, why the contradiction? Why does Peter say that the Holy Ghost is given to those that obey, yet here we have people who don’t even know God much less obey Him receiving the gift of the Spirit. Not just a ***** in the heart, nor a still small voice, but full on, very visual reception of the Holy Spirit.

Peter was preaching to whom? Cornelius and his household. What does Acts 10:2 say about this man and his household.

Act 10:2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

So I see that Cornelius was a good man who, with his household, already was obedient to God, and showing much charity to the poor. Now we see that the scriptures do harmonize.

But also notice that Cornelius and his household was not the only ones there, but brethren from Joppa had accompanied Peter (Acts 10:23) who it is safe to say were members because they were called brethren. Notice how it was only the Gentiles (Cornelius and his household) that received the Spirit, and in a very visual way also? Because, new doctrine was being revealed and acted upon, and those of the circumcision, (brethren from Joppa) were able to see with their own eyes and witness that the gospel was to go unto the Gentiles as well as those of the circumcision.

Below in Acts 10 those who heard the words of Peter received the Holy Spirit without doing any works and they had not even been baptized at this point.

The order of obedience does not matter.

[TrueBlue?]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

I agree. We are not saved by works, but by grace. This verse in no way says our works do not contribute.

Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

How is our faith perfected? See above verse.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

I agree. We are not saved by works, but by grace. This verse in no way says our works do not contribute.



How is our faith perfected? See above verse.

You must not have read verse 9. It clearly states that salvation is NOT BY WORKS, SO THAT NO ONE CAN BOAST.. Works therefore contribute nothing to salvation it is given 100% by the grace of God through faith in Jesus. Again it is not of works.. Surely you can see that right there in the p***age.. IHS jim

[TrueBlue?]

Originally Posted by James Banta

You must not have read verse 9. It clearly states that salvation is NOT BY WORKS, SO THAT NO ONE CAN BOAST.. Works therefore contribute nothing to salvation it is given 100% by the grace of God through faith in Jesus. Again it is not of works.. Surely you can see that right there in the p***age.. IHS jim

James, I don't see it in that verse that works do not contribute to make my faith complete. Clearly you are not reading my posts, because I have stated that I agree that I am not saved by works. I am not saved by faith either. I am saved by grace given to me by Christ.

I could have perfect faith and perfect works, but neither will save me, it Christ who saves. It is His grace He gives us. His free gift to all. He stands at the door knocking. But before I open it, I must have faith that it is Him, when I have faith, I must act on that faith and actually open the door. I can stand there all day shouting through the door my professed love and belief. but my faith and belief will not open the door. He will not break it down either. There is no latch on the other side of it so yelling I believe come on in will not open the door. You must act on your faith and make the decision to open the door.

Faith and works. Not by faith alone.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

was a good man who, with his household, already was obedient to God, and showing much charity to the poor.

How could they be completely obedient to God when they didn't know what God's commandments were?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

The order of obedience does not matter.

So you can receive the Holy Spirit before you are baptized or know what God's commandments are?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

I agree. We are not saved by works, but by grace. This verse in no way says our works do not contribute.

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Sure it says that works do not contribute. What do you think not of works means?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

I have stated that I agree that I am not saved by works

So you can be exalted without doing all of the required works for exaltation?

[TrueBlue?]

Originally Posted by Billyray

How could they be completely obedient to God when they didn't know what God's commandments were?

Your gonna have to take that up with the Bible, the Bible states he was devout to God.

Definition of DEVOUT
1
: devoted to religion or to religious duties or exercises
2
: expressing devotion or piety <a devout at***ude>
3
a : devoted to a pursuit, belief, or mode of behavior : serious, earnest

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

Your gonna have to take that up with the Bible, the Bible states he was devout to God.

Tell me what they knew about God and his commandments?

[TrueBlue?]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Sure it says that works do not contribute. What do you think not of works means?

No, Billy, it does not say of works, but by works. Huge difference. Why do you think Paul that it was us who had work out our own salvation?

Php_2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Why do you keep trying to change what the Bible states?

[TrueBlue?]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Tell me what they knew about God and his commandments?

The Bible doesn't give minute details of the mans life, but devout enough that God chose him, a devout man to God, to appear unto him and make him the sign that the gospel was to be preached to the Gentiles.

[TrueBlue?]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So you can receive the Holy Spirit before you are baptized or know what God's commandments are?

If you continue in this manner of discussion then I will not continue to carry this discussion on with you. Stop with the deceptive tactics. If Cornelius was devout to God, then he knew the commandments of God.

Again no specific order of obedience necessary.

Anyone can receive a witness from the Holy Ghost, but having the Holy Ghost as an constant companion is another thing.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

If you continue in this manner of discussion then I will not continue to carry this discussion on with you. Stop with the deceptive tactics. If Cornelius was devout to God, then he knew the commandments of God.

Again no specific order of obedience necessary.

Anyone can receive a witness from the Holy Ghost, but having the Holy Ghost as an constant companion is another thing.

A person can respond to the promptings of the Holy Spirit but if they receive the Holy Spirit the same as Peter had at Pentecost there is no doubt that they have the Spirit of God in them just as much as any other believer. Do you see what the p***age teaches lets look:

Acts 10:47
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Just saying they had a witness from the Holy Ghost, but didn't have the Holy Ghost as an constant companion, is another denial of the scripture.. When is it you will start to believe God instead of always trying to put your words in His mouth? IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

No, Billy, it does not say of works, but by works. Huge difference.

Huge difference? Really? Let's use the KJV which is your official scripture

Ephesians 2:8-9
8*For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9*Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The KJV says "not of works" weren't you aware of that? I guess not. Now tell me why you think that works contribute for salvation when Paul clearly says that it is not of works?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

Why do you keep trying to change what the Bible states?

Where in that verse does it say work FOR your salvation?

Notice it say work OUT your salvation NOT work FOR salvation.