Free Will

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

It sounds like we are in agreement for the most part if you believe that God intervenes and controls certain events. But I am sure you know that your position wouldn't line up with the idea that God simply saw what you did ahead of time.

Yes, in retrospect, I think it is more like what I described the Arminian view to be, which is more "interactive" with God, rather than independent free will.

My position is probably best described in the following verse from Proverbs.

Proverbs 16:9 The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.

Yes, I remember that verse. I like it.

[Billyray]

Acts 9
1 But Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest
2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.
3 Now as he went on his way, he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven shone around him.
4 And falling to the ground he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?”
5 And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.
6 But rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do.”

Romans 9
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

Romans 11
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
8 as it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”


In the above sections of scripture you see God taking an active role in the course of people's lives. He just doesn't sit around and see (foresee) what people will do like you hear from the Arminian point of view. With this in mind look again at the objection that Paul raises in Romans 9. If the Arminian point of view is correct the objection below wouldn't make any sense, on the other hand from the Calvinist point of view the objection does make sense in fact people on this board have made the exact objection.

Romans 9
19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”
20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”
21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

[Libby]

I agree those p***ages are difficult to explain from an "interactive" perspective, but I still don't think we can know, for certain, that Saul/Paul did not still have the freedom to turn away, if he had sincerely wanted to. That was a dramatic story of conviction that left Saul with absolutely no doubt about who Jesus was....so, in that sense, he had no choice, when confronted with direct knowledge and truth. Most of us don't get that kind of direct knowledge. Jesus chose Saul/Paul for a particular mission...and Jesus knew he would fulfill that mission, just as he knew Judas would fulfill the mission he was called to.

Think I will look at some commentary from an Arminian perspect, on these p***ages.

[Libby]

John Wesley

"I appeal to every impartial mind...whether the mercy of God would not be far less gloriously displayed, in saving a few by his irresistible power, and leaving all the rest without help, without hope, to perish everlastingly, than in offering salvation to every creature, actually saving all that consent thereto, and doing for the rest all that infinite wisdom, almighty power, and boundless love can do, without forcing them to be saved, which would be to destroy the very nature that he had given them." -Predestination Calmly Considered

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I agree those p***ages are difficult to explain from an "interactive" perspective, but I still don't think we can know, for certain, that Saul/Paul did not still have the freedom to turn away, if he had sincerely wanted to. That was a dramatic story of conviction that left Saul with absolutely no doubt about who Jesus was....so, in that sense, he had no choice, when confronted with direct knowledge and truth. Most of us don't get that kind of direct knowledge. Jesus chose Saul/Paul for a particular mission...and Jesus knew he would fulfill that mission, just as he knew Judas would fulfill the mission he was called to.

Think I will look at some commentary from an Arminian perspect, on these p***ages.

I agree that Christ chose Paul as evident by the p***age of His conversion in Acts 9--prior to this point Saul had no interest in joining Christianity in fact he was on a mission to persecute the Christians. Now compare this Romans 11 (reproduced below) this certainly isn't indicative of the Father drawing these people to Christ--in fact if the Father was drawing them to Christ why give them "a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear".

Romans 11
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
8 as it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I agree those p***ages are difficult to explain from an "interactive" perspective, but I still don't think we can know, for certain, that Saul/Paul did not still have the freedom to turn away, if he had sincerely wanted to. . .

I think a lot of people view the Calvinist position as people being forced to make a choice one way or the other--and that is the sense that I am getting from your statement above. Paul chooses to accept Christ after his experience in Acts 9--the same is true for the other elect after they are regenerated. Those who are not elect choose to reject Christ.

[Libby]

Billy, would you mind watching this seven minute video (mostly on Ephesians 2:8)? I would really like to hear your opinion on this. The teacher is Dr. Norman Geisler. Are you familiar with him? I am not, but have really enjoyed what I've listened to, so far!

This was originally posted by Alan on another forum.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I think a lot of people view the Calvinist position as people being forced to make a choice one way or the other--and that is the sense that I am getting from your statement above. Paul chooses to accept Christ after his experience in Acts 9--the same is true for the other elect after they are regenerated. Those who are not elect choose to reject Christ.

Yes, but the point of contention is that God chooses a few for salvation, for no known reason, and then must regenerate them, before they can even respond.

The video I posted poses a very good argument as to why regeneration cannot come before faith. And, Dr. Geisler uses Ephesians 2:8 to prove his point.

[Libby]

If you would like to watch the whole series, you can do that here:

http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/s...l=1#post155446

I'm listening, right now.

[Libby]

This is the whole series.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9n_...D2E37589EA81B9

[alanmolstad]

thanks Libby!

he really helps a person understand

[alanmolstad]

Saul/Paul never lost his free will......he always had free will....

the same is true for Pharaoh and even Judas....they (like the rest of us) always have Free Will....

But God is not so limited that he cant move in our lives without first stripping away our Free Will...

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Billy, would you mind watching this seven minute video (mostly on Ephesians 2:8)? I would really like to hear your opinion on this. The teacher is Dr. Norman Geisler. Are you familiar with him? I am not, but have really enjoyed what I've listened to, so far!

I know Norm Geisler in fact he has a pretty good book that I read several years ago ***led "I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist". I will take a look at his video later today and get back with you.

Ephesians 2:8 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God

What is "this"?

[alanmolstad]

you get faith, and following that you get saved......not the other way around

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes, but the point of contention is that God chooses a few for salvation, for no known reason, and then must regenerate them, before they can even respond.

And from your point of view nobody can respond until God changes them in some way. Prior to that they are unable to do so. BTW we both agree that people do not have the free will to come to God until God changes them and allows them to do so. Second who are those who come to God? The elect which are elect from before the foundation of the world. Again you and I would agree that this is true. Where we differ is the basis for their election. Third we would also agree that a person cannot become elect if they are not elect after they are born. If you think about your position we agree more than we disagree.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

you get faith, and following that you get saved......not the other way around

That is correct Alan. faith/repentance-->salvation. Hey we finally agree on something.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Ephesians 2:8 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God

What is "this"?

note the point in the video at 2:50

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

God doesn't have "beliefs", does He? He has true knowledge.

I thought the same thing....I read that list Billy posted and thought to myself...."Who wrote this junk?"

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Are you free to choose anything different in the future than what is already determined for you to do?

You are always free to chouse what you want...God never takes away this Free Will that you have Libby...Never!

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

And from your point of view nobody can respond until God changes them in some way. .

this is wrong.....The Bible disagrees with you 100% on this...

check out 1:50 of the video...

[alanmolstad]

so being "dead' in our sins never for one moment means we are "unable" to respond....

Rather it means we are "unwilling" to respond.


and this fits closely with the words of Christ who wept because the people of the city "would not"come to him....not that they "could not"....

"Would not" = unwilling = dead in your sins.

[Christian]

alan posted:

Originally Posted by ChristianWhat do you think THIS p***age means?

John 6:44
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
NKJV

it points to the verse - Romans 1:20

Is the universe still spinning?
Is the earth still here?

Rom 1:20-23
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man — and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
NKJV

Yep, there those who 'know' God and their hearts are darkened. NOTHING IN THE TEXT says they are 'free willed' to 'choose God' WITHOUT HIM FIRST DRAWING THEM to Himself.

If so, then you are hearing the call.......for the Universe never stops declaring the nature of God to you.

I received Jesus Christ as my Savior and Lord over 40 years ago. . .I don't have to depend upon nature alone. . .I have HIS WORD and HIS HOLY SPIRIT LIVING WITHIN ME. . .MUCH BETTER!

So where is your scripture that says anyone has the 'free will' to choose God on his own?

So far you have found none.

[Christian]

confused alan posted:
yes,,,,
God is not so weak that he has to first rob the person of their own Free Will just to carry out his will in their life!

Why would you consider the TRUTH that God never gave anyone the 'free will' to choose Him or not, a 'weakness' in God?

GOD tells us:
Eph 1:3-6
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
NKJV



That would be a silly type of god to trust...a god who gets nervous at the gifts he has given.....LOL.

I know. . .you think that the Word of God is 'silly.' I also know YOU are pathetically confused if you think we CHRISTIANS believe God 'gets nervous at the gifts He has given. . ."

"Oh no, I gave them all Free Will and now they are stronger than I am!...What shall I ever do?"

SHOW ME IN SCRIPTURE that God ever gave anyone 'free will' at all, and I will show you where God said we are either a SLAVE TO SIN or a SLAVE TO RIGHTEOUSNESS, and that we were BOUGHT from sin BY JESUS ON THE CROSS who PAID FOR US.

Sorry alan, but you are confused.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Here is the second verse given in your link

John 8:24 - I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.

This is certainly true that if a man doesn't believe in Christ and know that He is God then he will die in his sins. Let's look down a few verses to see what else Christ said to these guys.

Alan if anything this section of scripture teaches against "free will".

Why didn't these guys hear the words of God?"

1 Cor 2:13-15
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
NKJV

[Libby]

So where is your scripture that says anyone has the 'free will' to choose God on his own?

Then Jesus said, "Come to me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I will give you rest".

God gently draws us to Him, but then we must have the "faith" to accept His calling.

I hope you will watch the videos, as well, Christian. Dr. Geisler puts it so simply and absolutely according to scripture.