The Bible Does Not Prohibit ****sexuality

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by asdf

"is called a perversion" — [citation needed]

http://bible.cc/romans/1-27.htm

[alanmolstad]

Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor ****sexuals,or thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

But if any these repent , they will be forgiven.







Let me know if you have any more questions on this topic.

[ActRaiser]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor ****sexuals,or thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

But if any these repent , they will be forgiven.







Let me know if you have any more questions on this topic.

Repent. . .
I know some people who want to "repent" of this and don't lead a ****sexual lifestyle, but still sin in their heart with the same lusts.

I"m not sure what question I"m asking but it would be nice if you could fish for an answer to the unspoken.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by ActRaiser

Repent. . .
I know some people who want to "repent" of this and don't lead a ****sexual lifestyle, but still sin in their heart with the same lusts.

I"m not sure what question I"m asking but it would be nice if you could fish for an answer to the unspoken.

****sexuality is not a "lifestyle". There's nothing to repent of. Gay people are beautiful and good and normal and loved by God just the way they are, despite all the hatred and ignorance and discrimination and shame thrown at them in God's name.

It's sinful to call profane what God has made clean.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by ActRaiser

Repent. . .
I know some people who want to "repent" of this and don't lead a ****sexual lifestyle, but still sin in their heart with the same lusts.

I"m not sure what question I"m asking but it would be nice if you could fish for an answer to the unspoken.

an interesting question....

To answer the unspoken question?.........
very interesting way to wake me up this morning and an interesting challenge.


It's likely that later today I will have this much better answer thought of , but for now this is my first thoughts on your post.



There is no temptation common to the Gays that is so powerful that the Christian faith is helpless to meet it.
So as with any other sin and temptation to sin that all humans face, the answer from the Scriptures is to center your heart on the Lord.

Fill your thoughts with the Word of the Lord, and it is like a seed planted there that grows and grows and will push out all other thoughts.



It must start with a moment of self-reflection where you see the truth that a sin is a sin, and the attempt to "call" it something else might fool men, but never fools God!

To "REPENT" is to "re" - "think"

To "think about that again"

In today's wording I would say that it means " To spend some time thinking about that..."


So the first step is this coming to terms with the sinfulness of your life, and the seeking of being made clean.

For only in the blood of Christ are people made clean from this and all other sin.



I do know that the closer you draw to your Lord, the more even the smallest of errors are driven out of your life...

[asdf]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

My previous answer was addressed to the idea that because I follow the New test Biblical condemnation of the Gays that I also must follow the teachings on hair length....

as I point out in my post, I do.

For a certain value of "follow". Others, who take the text more "literally", would likely describe your interpretation as playing-fast-and-loose-with-the-plain-meaning-of-scripture.

Morality as I know it must be based on the text of the Bible alone, or it is of no value to us...

Nonsense. Each of us has opinions and moralities that range far and wide, on topics both familiar to and utterly foreign to the writers of scripture.

The Bible is not a rulebook. Trying to read it as a rulebook doesn’t work. Read it that way and you’re bound to be frustrated, misled and confused. Filtering through the Bible to pluck out the rules produces two results, neither of them helpful. First it gives you a jar full of context-less rules, and second it leaves behind the vast bulk of the Bible — all those stories and songs, prophecy, proverbs, parables and promises filtered off to the side by the quest for rules. (source)

in other words:
The Bible says it-
I believe it -
That settles it!

Um, no. A human writer "said" something, 2000+ years ago, in Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek, to an audience consisting of other Hebrew, Aramaic and/or Greek speakers, both author and audience residing in the same culture, a culture very unlike ours, dealing with local and community-defining issues. The writing has been preserved, transcribed, copied, transported across the centuries, dragged thousands of miles from their original context in the ancient Near East, translated into languages that didn't even exist at the time of writing, then interpreted and applied, selectively and imperfectly, by yet more humans, who decide what gets considered a "timeless moral truth" and what gets a p***ing nod as a historical quirk.

No, sir—you do not "just believe" what the Bible "says".

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Actually the whole letter by Paul addressed to Philemon is a clear attempt by Paul to get a slave set free and returned to him.....

Paul puts the screws to Philemon in the letter, and the context is clearly that Paul wants the slave set free.....

Oh! So you should be able to point me to the p***age where Paul instructs, in so many words—"Philemon, you should free Onesimus, and all your slaves! What were you thinking, having slaves in the first place? Don't you know it's immoral for a person to own another human—and you call yourself a follower of Christ! You should be ashamed!"

Feel free to point that out to me at your earliest convenience.

The context of the New Test is clearly that owning a slave is harmful and that if a slave gets a chance to be free he should take it, and that to be a good Christian a slave owner should allow his slaves to go free.

[citations needed]

This is the teachings of the Bible, and it is true....

Funny—it sounds distinctly like "the teachings of alanmolstad", and not so much like "the teachings of the Bible" at all.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

All of the Law of the Jews was totally fulfilled in the life and death of Christ.
When we become Christians, we are buried with Christ in the water of our Baptism.

Thus to the law we are then , (and for all time after) dead ....

We are dead in the eyes of the law.
And as we all know, the Law has no power over the dead...the law is fulfilled and we are no longer under it's power.

That's nice. I wish someone would tell the zealots who want to plaster the Ten Commandments all over US government buildings, or who tattoo verses from Leviticus on themselves...

We rise up out of the waters of the new Covenant, and as such we now fall under the control and power of the New test commandments.

The important teachings for the church are found now in the New Test and are therefore part of our New Covenant...

The commandment that Gays do not enter into the Lord's Kingdom are found in the New test and are very much a part of the New Covenant that we now live under in Christ.

You've already amply demonstrated just how selective you are when applying commandments—even "New Covenant" ones. And you've more-than-amply demonstrated that you don't know any gay people—as well as provided a textbook illustration for my knowing gay people is the #1 factor correlating with a person's acceptance of GLBT people as fully human and full members of society.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

The Bible is not written for private interpretation!

That's nice. But you've already shared your own private interpretations—of slavery p***ages, of hair-regulation p***ages, ...

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

http://bible.cc/romans/1-27.htm

Okay, you've got me. Four out of your cited 18 translations translated the Greek πλάνης as "perversion". So you agree with 22% of your own source? Based on the concordance and lexicon uses of πλάνη, why?

I'm familiar with Romans 1. Paul says that [something —*men leaving women for men] was a punishment from God for the sin of idolatry. Neither idolatry, nor lust, nor "envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity", nor any of the other descriptors Paul uses accurately describe my gay and lesbian friends. Thus, I am forced to conclude either 1) Paul was not referring to my friends when making his diatribe, or 2) Paul was wrong in referring to my friends that way.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor ****sexuals,or thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Considering that the word ****sexuality, and the understanding of sexual orientation as an immutable characteristic of some people did not exist until the late 19th–early 20th century, I find that translation highly suspect.

Paul writes of malakoi and ****nokoites. What reason do you have to believe that these words refer to a modern gay or lesbian person seeking a committed, monogamous, lifelong covenantal relationship with the person they love?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by asdf

Oh! So you should be able to point me to the p***age where .....

I have already talked about this:

We can not go to the Bible and say, "Where is your clear condemnation of driving a new car the wrong way of the freeway while drunk?"

and then believe that just because the Bible does not clearly address the particular situation with the same wording we would ask of it, that this must mean that the Bible actually "endorses" driving a car drunk the wrong direction.


There are billions and billions of different people on this earth right now, and all of them have the ability to ask their own different questions in their own different ways, and then all of them looking to the Text of the Bible for their particular answer addressed clearly to their own questions.

It would be child-like and ridiculous for us to say that because the Bible is not like a magic 8-ball, with all the correct answers to every question , found simply by flipping open to the first page we turn to, that this means the Bible is completely silent.


The bible speaks!

The Bible has it's own message to give us and to teach us to live by.

It's up to us to read, learn, and live by what we find in the Bible....

The truth is that the Bible is what it is, and we cant make demands of the wording to fit our questions, rather we have to conform our lives to the text as we have received it.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by asdf

.......
Okay, you've got me. ......

Im simply providing you with the information you requested....

[alanmolstad]

the Bishop abandoned his wife and family...and entered into an evil and disgusting **** relationship.

He has led many down a dark path....

He will likely burn forever and ever in hell's fire....
I would be not upset by that eternal fate for him at all...

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by asdf

What reason do you have to believe that these words refer to a modern gay or lesbian person seeking a committed, monogamous, lifelong covenantal relationship with the person they love?

"And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female"

Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve!

"Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate"

[alanmolstad]

Q - So what does the Bible say about the eternal future of all the gays?....
A - that they will not enter into the Kingdom.


Q - What does that mean that they will not enter into the Kingdom?...
A - It means that will be gathered together before the Judgement seat of Christ, where they will be condemned...and tossed with Satan into the eternally burning Lake Of fire.


Q - So the Gays are tossed into the lake of Fire....but then what next?.....
A - there is no "what next?", there is no change in their eternal existence from that moment on.


Q - so the gays burn forever?
A - yes....and forever is a very, very long time.

[ActRaiser]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Q - So what does the Bible say about the eternal future of all the gays?....
A - that they will not enter into the Kingdom.


Q - What does that mean that they will not enter into the Kingdom?...
A - It means that will be gathered together before the Judgement seat of Christ, where they will be condemned...and tossed with Satan into the eternally burning Lake Of fire.


Q - So the Gays are tossed into the lake of Fire....but then what next?.....
A - there is no "what next?", there is no change in their eternal existence from that moment on.


Q - so the gays burn forever?
A - yes....and forever is a very, very long time.

A#1- Well, if they are unrepentant, although I think that's what we are talking about here.

A#2- Yeah

A#3- Okay

A#4- Just to make sure, we're talking about people who are unrepentant ****sexuals, and not just people who have strong same-sex urges right?

[asdf]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Q - So what does the Bible say about the eternal future of all the gays?....
A - that they will not enter into the Kingdom.

Q - What does that mean that they will not enter into the Kingdom?...
A - It means that will be gathered together before the Judgement seat of Christ, where they will be condemned...and tossed with Satan into the eternally burning Lake Of fire.

Q - So the Gays are tossed into the lake of Fire....but then what next?.....
A - there is no "what next?", there is no change in their eternal existence from that moment on.

Q - so the gays burn forever?
A - yes....and forever is a very, very long time.

You make it painfully evident that you're not even trying to read and respond to my posts. You've got a script, and you're sticking to it.

You also continue to make it painfully evident that you don't know any gay people.

The truth will set you free.

[alanmolstad]

Some people try to say that only gay "actions" condemn a person to hell...but our Lord was very clear at pointing out that even our inner most private thoughts condemn a person.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Some people try to say that only gay "actions" condemn a person to hell...but our Lord was very clear at pointing out that even our inner most private thoughts condemn a person.

Considering what else is on Paul's "sin list" along with malakoi and ****nokoites, one might think you'd be more circumspect and less glib about condemning vast swathes of humanity to unending torture.

Or have you never stolen anything, been greedy or slandered or served an idol—even in your "inner most private thoughts"?

[ActRaiser]

Originally Posted by asdf

Considering what else is on Paul's "sin list" along with malakoi and ****nokoites, one might think you'd be more circumspect and less glib about condemning vast swathes of humanity to unending torture.

Or have you never stolen anything, been greedy or slandered or served an idol—even in your "inner most private thoughts"?

The problem here is that you're answering your own question. God condemns ALL sin. Have you been greedy, slandering, served an idol, like admiring sports more than God?

If the answer is yes, then having ****sexual thoughts and mannerisms shouldn't be far behind what is condemned. What's easy to understand, or at least it should be, is that you can hate things God hates without hating people.

I love thieves. I love my enemies. I hate what they do.

Likewise, God directly loves ****sexuals while he despises ****sexuality, what ****sexuality does to them and how ugly it is. Bare in mind it's not just ugly because of what it does but what it represents. Man was made in the image of God, and ecspecially for believers, when someone turns away from how God made them, it not only makes God a liar but it corrupts his image.

However, I am well-aware that having same sex attraction doesn't make you a murderer, a violent person, or a particular despicable person. The problem with God and ****sexuality is not the degree of sinfulness, it's SIN it'self.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by ActRaiser

The problem here is that you're answering your own question. God condemns ALL sin. Have you been greedy, slandering, served an idol, like admiring sports more than God?

If the answer is yes, then having ****sexual thoughts and mannerisms shouldn't be far behind what is condemned.

My point is not the condemnation, it is the result of that condemnation. Alan seems to be so gleeful & glib in talking about unending, hellacious torment for gay people, based on [his understanding of] Paul's list, not realizing that by his own standard he condemns himself to the same.

"For with the measure with which you judge, you will be judged."
– Jesus of Nazareth

"Therefore you have no excuse, whoever you are, when you judge others; for in p***ing judgment on another you condemn yourself because you, the judge, are doing the very same things."
– Paul of Tarsus

Also, [I repeat myself] I disagree that "****sexual thoughts and mannerisms" are what is condemned by Paul as malakoi and ****nokoites.

What's easy to understand, or at least it should be, is that you can hate things God hates without hating people.

I grant that it's possible. But considering that the ones who "hate ****sexual sin" are also the ones who are fighting against all legal and civil protection for GLBT people, I do not think that theoretical possibility is applicable in this instance.

Likewise, God directly loves ****sexuals while he despises ****sexuality, what ****sexuality does to them and how ugly it is. Bare in mind it's not just ugly because of what it does but what it represents. Man was made in the image of God, and ecspecially for believers, when someone turns away from how God made them, it not only makes God a liar but it corrupts his image.

However, I am well-aware that having same sex attraction doesn't make you a murderer, a violent person, or a particular despicable person. The problem with God and ****sexuality is not the degree of sinfulness, it's SIN it'self.

I disagree that living an honest life; embracing love, confidence, and maturity; being true to oneself and to society; committing to meaningful love and relationship is "making God a liar", "turning away from how God made" one, or "sinful".

[ActRaiser]

Originally Posted by asdf

My point is not the condemnation, it is the result of that condemnation. Alan seems to be so gleeful & glib in talking about unending, hellacious torment for gay people, based on [his understanding of] Paul's list, not realizing that by his own standard he condemns himself to the same.

"For with the measure with which you judge, you will be judged."
– Jesus of Nazareth

"Therefore you have no excuse, whoever you are, when you judge others; for in p***ing judgment on another you condemn yourself because you, the judge, are doing the very same things."
– Paul of Tarsus

Also, [I repeat myself] I disagree that "****sexual thoughts and mannerisms" are what is condemned by Paul as malakoi and ****nokoites.



I grant that it's possible. But considering that the ones who "hate ****sexual sin" are also the ones who are fighting against all legal and civil protection for GLBT people, I do not think that theoretical possibility is applicable in this instance.



I disagree that living an honest life; embracing love, confidence, and maturity; being true to oneself and to society; committing to meaningful love and relationship is "making God a liar", "turning away from how God made" one, or "sinful".

Then you disagree with God. While everything you've listed is good in and of themselves, nothing is adequate for spiritual growth without God, his word and his Son Jesus.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by ActRaiser

Then you disagree with God.

I disagree with you that I disagree with God.

While everything you've listed is good in and of themselves, nothing is adequate for spiritual growth without God, his word and his Son Jesus.

I believe that things that are good—things that are "good in and of themselves"—are in fact good. "Think on these things", "against such things there is no law", "everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial", "everyone who loves is in God, for God is love".

Where there is love, where there is goodness & beauty & fidelity & shalom & perseverance & self-sacrifice & ... — that's where God is. That's what God smiles upon.

I'm not able to regard that as in any way inferior to my own relationship with my wife. I'm not able to regard that as something that is hated by a God who is good.

[Libby]

I disagree with you that I disagree with God.

I came here earlier today and almost typed those exact words, when I read our friend's post...but, decided not to insert myself in this conversation.

Wanted to tell you that I have enjoyed your posts on this subject, though. A breath of fresh air. Namaste'

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by asdf

Four out of your cited 18 translations translated the Greek πλάνης as "perversion". So you agree with 22% of your own source? ...

actually the different translations are in total 100% agreement....

I agree with all of them...

You asked if the bible actually does call being Gay a "Perversion"?, and I looked for a credible website that you could trust, in my effort to show you that the Bible does call being Gay a perversion.

All the wording in all the different translations listed all come to the same united concept that being gay is a very sinful, dirty, disgusting , perverted lifestyle, that will condemn a person's soul to an everlasting Hell fire.

This is not my idea...

I did not come up with this teaching....

Im only showing you what God wanted us to clearly understand so that we have the needed information to REPENT, and turn away from such perversions.

Blame God for what is and is not a sin, I didnt come up with HIS list.
And thats what we need to remember here...
This is God's list...
This is God's thoughts...
This is God's ideas...

God calls being gay a "perversion", and that's just a fact that i personally had nothing to do with..

[asdf]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I have already talked about this:

We can not go to the Bible and say, "Where is your clear condemnation of driving a new car the wrong way of the freeway while drunk?"

and then believe that just because the Bible does not clearly address the particular situation with the same wording we would ask of it, that this must mean that the Bible actually "endorses" driving a car drunk the wrong direction.

Perhaps that's the case for an issue on which the Bible is silent because the issue did not exist at the time the Bible was written—vegetarianism, nuclear physics, drunk driving—but if you have an overwhelming consensus throughout both Testaments that an issue is acceptable, sometimes attributed to Godsown mouth—

—and the only thing you can point to arguing otherwise is a vague possible-suggestion that one particular slaveowner maybe-kinda-sorta-pretty-please ought to free one particular slave, as a personal favor to Paul this one particular time—

—it's rather dishonest to claim that "the context of the New Test is clearly that owning a slave is harmful and (...) that to be a good Christian a slave owner should allow his slaves to go free", don't you think?

The bible speaks!

No, it really doesn't. People speak; books don't.

It's up to us to read, learn, and live by what we find in the Bible....

The truth is that the Bible is what it is, and we cant make demands of the wording to fit our questions, rather we have to conform our lives to the text as we have received it.

Right then. So you should be all for treating your slaves well, or if you're a slave yourself, submitting graciously to your owner without complaining.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Im simply providing you with the information you requested....

And refusing to answer my follow-up. I see exactly how the game is played.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

"And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female"

Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve!
"Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate"

Oh, very clever! I've never heard that pun before. That settles it then.

Do you have any reason to believe that Jesus was addressing same-sex unions in that p***age, rather than what he said he was addressing—opposite-sex divorces?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

actually the different translations are in total 100% agreement....

Except they're not. The vast majority of translators render πλάνης as "error", which is in line with how the word is used through the rest of the NT. And once again, whatever the "error" in question, it is given as the result of sin and idolatry, not presented as the sin itself—far less a "very sinful, dirty, disgusting, perverted lifestyle that will condemn a person's soul to an everlasting Hell fire". You're just making stuff up now.

All the wording in all the different translations listed all come to the same united concept that being gay is a very sinful, dirty, disgusting , perverted lifestyle, that will condemn a person's soul to an everlasting Hell fire.

This is not my idea...

I did not come up with this teaching....

Things missing from Paul, anywhere—that you are claiming (by repe***ion) to be there:
"being gay"
"very sinful"
"dirty"
"disgusting"
"lifestyle"
"a person's soul"
"everlasting Hell fire"

Im only showing you what God wanted us to clearly understand so that we have the needed information to REPENT, and turn away from such perversions.

If God had wanted us to clearly understand, why did God require your words to communicate God's "needed information"?

Blame God for what is and is not a sin, I didnt come up with HIS list.
And thats what we need to remember here...
This is God's list...
This is God's thoughts...
This is God's ideas...

God calls being gay a "perversion", and that's just a fact that i personally had nothing to do with..

Perhaps if you knew some gay people, you would understand that reality testifies against your dogma.

[cheachea]

The Bible says what it says. It's not Politically correct, but it's the Truth. It is what it is.


1 Corinthians 6:9-11 tells us who will Not inherit the Kingdom of God.

* NIV - Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men.


* KJV- neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind


* NKJV - Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor ****sexuals,


* Young's Literal Translation - neither *****mongers, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor Effeminate, nor Sodomites


* ESV - neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice ****sexuality


The Bible says what it says. Sexual sins are one of the toughest battles in life for most people . God wants us to turn from our sins and live. The flesh wars against the spirit. It's a daily battle.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by cheachea

The Bible says what it says.
It is what it is.
The Bible says what it says.

Perhaps so, but nonetheless it must be translated and interpreted by we humans if we are to decide on how, or if, it is relevant to our lives today.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 tells us who will Not inherit the Kingdom of God.

I find it impossible to condemn my gay and lesbian friends with the same broad brush with which Paul condemns ****nokoites and malakoi.

That may be because 1) Paul was not exposed to any healthy, loving, same-sex couples, 2) ****nokoites and malakoi are actually referring to participants in ritual sex, pros***ution and pederasty, not intimate relationships between equals, 3) Paul was wrong, 4) something else about the way that 21st century English misses the original intent of 1st century Greco-Judaic thought.

Sexual sins are one of the toughest battles in life for most people . God wants us to turn from our sins and live. The flesh wars against the spirit. It's a daily battle.

I am no longer able to regard my friends' innate attractions, their desire to love and be loved by the one person with whom they spend their lives, their strength, courage, commitment and devotion in the face of adversity, the grace and friendship and mutuality and other-preferring agape I witness in their lives to be "sexual sin" against which they ought to "battle" and "turn from". I just can't do it. Reality compels me.

It's not Politically correct, but it's the Truth.

I agree that the Bible is not politically correct. I see it as challenging and subversive to all "-isms".

The whole law is summed up in a single commandment, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

[cheachea]

Originally Posted by asdf

3) Paul was wrong,[/INDENT]

Are you Really saying that Paul The Apostle speaking by the Holy Spirit was wrong ?

You need to stop trying to twist the scriptures. You also need to stop trying to justify people's sins. Sodom and Gomorrah were Completely Destroyed for Sodomy and Sexual Sins . They are Suffering the vengeance of Eternal Fire.


* Jude 1:7
as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given Themselves over to SEXUAL IMMORALITY and gone after Strange Flesh, are set forth as an Example, SUFFERING The VENGEANCE of ETERNAL FIRE.



If you love someone you tell them the Truth. Telling them the Truth is the most loving thing you can do. If they don't repent then they will Not inherit the Kingdom of God. If they don't repent then they are proving that they Love there Sin more then they love God.