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Thread: A "what if" question for critics.

  1. #26
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    So then why complain about not having the gold plates, you would still find issue with them, even if that solved one of the claims by Anti's that the plates could not have ever existed, you know things like "reformed egyptian writing",
    proof that writing were preserved on metal plates, the weight of the plates, etc, etc.

    At least some of the criticisms would be proved or at least discounted and your talking points would have to adjust to something else if proven wrong.
    RJ.

    --Yes, that is a very logical conclusion. It exposes the disingenuousness of this particular attack on LDS doctrine.

    "If you would just show us the plates, then we would believe!"

    If they were shown the plates, they would renege on their promise. Israelites saw the Red Sea parted, and that didn't turn them into TBJs. You can almost bet that whenever an invested skeptic says "Just show me ____ and I will believe," he is not gonna be telling the truth.

  2. #27
    B2M5L2
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    --Yes, that is a very logical conclusion. It exposes the disingenuousness of this particular attack on LDS doctrine.

    "If you would just show us the plates, then we would believe!"


    Well, if your confession is that Mormons are fideists, then why are you and Chuck here contradicting your fideism by issuing ambiguous evidence to make your case? And if you're not fideists, but quasi-evidentialists, then what presupposition drives your evidentialism to conclude what you do about the Book of Mormon?

    If they were shown the plates, they would renege on their promise. Israelites saw the Red Sea parted, and that didn't turn them into TBJs. You can almost bet that whenever an invested skeptic says "Just show me ____ and I will believe," he is not gonna be telling the truth.
    You're right. For the righteous shall live by faith, but that faith is predicated on an object in real, time-space history; not upon something as convoluted as an inductive argument which leads back to an exalted man ruling from a planet orbiting Kolob.

  3. #28
    Richard
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    Quote Originally Posted by B2M5L2 View Post
    Where have I ever complained about not having gold plates? I simply answered Sir's question.



    And yet, Chuck, there are no gold plates, and the criticisms remain legitimate.
    And again you didn't address the question, interesting.

    If you were able to see the golden plates, and you were ***ured they were authentic and that they were what they are purported to be, what are the other issues that you have with Mormonism that would keep you from accepting its message?

  4. #29
    Richard
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    --Yes, that is a very logical conclusion. It exposes the disingenuousness of this particular attack on LDS doctrine.

    "If you would just show us the plates, then we would believe!"

    If they were shown the plates, they would renege on their promise. Israelites saw the Red Sea parted, and that didn't turn them into TBJs. You can almost bet that whenever an invested skeptic says "Just show me ____ and I will believe," he is not gonna be telling the truth.
    Jeff, can you imagine all the reprinting they would have to come up with, all those anti books would be waste paper as they hurriedly wrote new talking points and discarded the old ones, humorous.

    Richard.

  5. #30
    B2M5L2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    And again you didn't address the question, interesting.
    What was I supposed to address, Chuck, when all you did was make another empty accusation?

  6. #31
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Jeff, can you imagine all the reprinting they would have to come up with, all those anti books would be waste paper as they hurriedly wrote new talking points and discarded the old ones, humorous. Richard.
    ---If they thought they could still make money from sales of the new, improved "Why the Book of Mormon is STILL wrong" books and DVDs, I reckon they would.

  7. #32
    B2M5L2
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    ---If they thought they could still make money from sales of the new, improved "Why the Book of Mormon is STILL wrong" books and DVDs, I reckon they would.
    Hey guys, tell me something. Is this what happens when the so-called "what if" questions have been answered? The Mormons are left grumbling with each other over stuff that has nothing to do with the original scheme?

  8. #33
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by B2M5L2 View Post
    Hey guys, tell me something. Is this what happens when the so-called "what if" questions have been answered? The Mormons are left grumbling with each other over stuff that has nothing to do with the original scheme?
    ---So it's not OK to DISCUSS the answers that people gave? Says who?

    Brian, I do appreciate your post where you admitted that I was right when I said:

    If they were shown the plates, they would renege on their promise.

    and you replied:



    You're right.

  9. #34
    Sir
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    And I would prefer to see your response to my question that you said would be so easy to explain away.
    I know you would. But I think in reading your posts you are one who usually likes to have people answery our questions before you attempt to answer theirs. It's seems common courtesy to address my question that was posed in the OP first before going down your own trail of questions.

  10. #35
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post

    If you were able to see the golden plates, and you were ***ured they were authentic and that they were what they are purported to be, what are the other issues that you have with Mormonism that would keep you from accepting its message?
    Moroni 10:3-5 false promise. I took the LDS god up on his offer and took this challenge and did NOT receive an answer as promised.

  11. #36
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    understanding that LDS can reconcile that Isaiah verse quite easily and harmoniously with the BoM and LDS doctrine
    Can I hear your explanation?

  12. #37
    Sir
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Moroni 10:3-5 false promise. I took the LDS god up on his offer and took this challenge and did NOT receive an answer as promised.
    But if the BoM is what it purports to be, the writings contained therein would also be correct. Your charge that the Moroni promise if false is based on your own personal experience. Many LDS will counter that by claiming it is true based on their personal experience.

    So for you, even if the BoM were authentic and proved to be what it claims to be, you would reject the LDS church because of the negative experience you believe to have had in praying for a confirming witness.

  13. #38
    Sir
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Can I hear your explanation?
    I like Stephen Gibson's better. No sense in trying to reinvent the wheel.

    http://www.lightplanet.com/response/answers/gods.htm

  14. #39
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    Your charge that the Moroni promise if false is based on your own personal experience. Many LDS will counter that by claiming it is true based on their personal experience.
    Moroni 10
    3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.
    4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
    5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

    The promise is that if you follow the steps above "he will manifest the truth of it unto you". He did NOT manifest the truth of it unto me. Therefore the promise failed. As far as others I can't speak for them.

  15. #40
    Sir
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Moroni 10
    3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.
    4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
    5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

    The promise is that if you follow the steps above "he will manifest the truth of it unto you". He did NOT manifest the truth of it unto me. Therefore the promise failed. As far as others I can't speak for them.
    That's what I said. For you it failed, for others (like me) it did not.

  16. #41
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    That's what I said. For you it failed, for others (like me) it did not.
    How do you explain that?

  17. #42
    B2M5L2
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    ---So it's not OK to DISCUSS the answers that people gave? Says who?


    It didn't look like you were discussing answers, but trying to belittle those who've given answers that you didn't like.

    Brian, I do appreciate your post where you admitted that I was right when I said:

    If they were shown the plates, they would renege on their promise.

    and you replied:


    You're right.
    I'm happy for whatever you've recollected.

  18. #43
    Sir
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    How do you explain that?
    Easy. I'm right and you are wrong.

  19. #44
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    I like Stephen Gibson's better. No sense in trying to reinvent the wheel.

    http://www.lightplanet.com/response/answers/gods.htm
    From the article:

    In that Godhead, as Jesus clearly and repeatedly taught, God the Father hold ultimate power and control of earthly events.
    So is the LDS Godhead only gods over this planet and not the entire universe (or over ALL That IS), as the Biblical God states?

  20. #45
    Sir
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    From the article:



    So is the LDS Godhead only gods over this planet and not the entire universe (or over ALL That IS), as the Biblical God states?
    What do you believe, as a former LDS?

  21. #46
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    What do you believe, as a former LDS?
    I don't think I had a firmly held belief about it, but I did think that God's "realm" was more than just this planet.

    So, what do you believe?

  22. #47
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    Easy. I'm right and you are wrong.
    Why do you think that the LDS god failed to keep his promise in my case?

  23. #48
    Sir
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Why do you think that the LDS god failed to keep his promise in my case?
    ..........

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    He did NOT manifest the truth of it unto me. Therefore the promise failed. As far as others I can't speak for them.

  24. #49
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    ..........
    Was that suppose to be an answer to my question?

  25. #50
    Sir
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Was that suppose to be an answer to my question?
    Yes, but I see that you need further explanation. Just as you said you cannot comment on anyone's experiences but your own, I used that answer to your question. You want me to explain why the Moroni promise failed in your life. I can't do that because I'm not you. I'm positive that anything I said about it from an outsiders point of view would simply be cast off as absurd and with the disclaimer that since I'm not you or that I wasn't there I really can't know; which is quite true.

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