The Gift

[Saxon]

And your point is???

[Saxon]

So you are not a Trinitarian because you have separated Jesus from the ONE God and made him, the Holy Ghost and the Father three separate gods.

[Saxon]

Positional only but not a God in fact.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Anyone separating Jesus Christ(God the Son) out from the "one God" can in no way be considered a Trinitarian.

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

The "one God" of the Biblical NT was Jesus' God and Father:

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Originally Posted by Saxon

So you are not a Trinitarian because you have separated Jesus from the ONE God ...

Saxon--1Timothy was written by Paul--not me. Not only did Paul separate out God the Son from the "one God"--there was no NT writer that designated Christ as the "one God". Christ was always separated out from the "one God" designation in the NT--even Christ Himself:

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Corinthians 8:6--King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

God the Son was never designated as the "one God" in the NT. The "one God" in the NT--was Jesus' God and Father:

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

The Father is the One which Jesus obtained His inheritance from:

Hebrews 1:1-9---King James Version (KJV)
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

[Saxon]

The Christian Trinity is the one God. You also have no concept of the incarnation, God becoming man. It is no wonder as all the hordes of gods in the Mormon thought were all men to begin with.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon

The Christian Trinity is the one God. You also have no concept of the incarnation, God becoming man. It is no wonder as all the hordes of gods in the Mormon thought were all men to begin with.

And just how are you relating your prejudice to the fact God the Son was never referred to as the "one God" in the Biblical NT--and was always separated out from that designation when using that term in the NT, IE--

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Corinthians 8:6--King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

God the Son was never designated as the "one God" in the NT. The "one God" in the NT--was Jesus' God and Father:

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

The Father is the One which Jesus obtained His inheritance from:

Hebrews 1:1-9---King James Version (KJV)
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

[Saxon]

And just how are you relating your prejudice to the fact God the Son was never referred to as the "one God" in the Biblical NT--and was always separated out from that designation when using that term in the NT, IE--

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Corinthians 8:6--King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

God the Son was never designated as the "one God" in the NT. The "one God" in the NT--was Jesus' God and Father:

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

The Father is the One which Jesus obtained His inheritance from:

Hebrews 1:1-9---King James Version (KJV)
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

The Bible clearly states that there is only one God that exists. Seeing that there is only one God and Jesus is identified in many places as God, he is the one God. The Holy Spirit is identified as God, he is the one God. The Father is identified as God, he is the one God. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the one God; the real Trinity.

Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one

John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Acts 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

[alanmolstad]

Amen Saxon, well said!

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

And just how are you relating your prejudice to the fact God the Son was never referred to as the "one God" in the Biblical NT--and was always separated out from that designation when using that term in the NT, IE--

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Corinthians 8:6--King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

God the Son was never designated as the "one God" in the NT. The "one God" in the NT--was Jesus' God and Father:

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

The Father is the One which Jesus obtained His inheritance from:

Hebrews 1:1-9---King James Version (KJV)
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Originally Posted by Saxon

The Bible clearly states that there is only one God that exists.

Again--would that be this "one God"?

1 Corinthians 8:6--King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Seeing that there is only one God and Jesus is identified in many places as God, he is the one God.

Again--the NT writers never identified God the Son as the "one God". Jesus Christ was always separated out from the "one God" designation--and placed in another category whenever the "one God" designation was used--even when Christ was identifies within the same p***age of scripture, IE--

1 Timothy 2:5King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

The "one God" is identified as the God and Father of Jesus Christ:

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

The Holy Spirit is identified as God, he is the one God.

Please give us any NT verse that identifies the Holy Spirit as the "one God".

The Father is identified as God, he is the one God. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the one God; the real Trinity.

Please give us any verse of scripture that mentions the "Trinity"--or any NT verse that identifies the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as the "one God".

Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

The NT writers did not adopt the Deutero-Isaiah theology--obviously. The Divine Council of the Gods was a know fact in OT theology:

Psalm 82:1---King James Version (KJV)
82 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

Paul also accepted that even satan is a god:

2 Corinthians 4:4---King James Version (KJV)
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

But not part of the NT Godhead--which consisted of this:

1) God the Father
2) God the Son
3) God the Holy Ghost

[Saxon]

Try answering the stated questions that I ask. The Bible clearly states that there is only one God that exists. Try to answer and keep in mind the Bible says;

Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Once you can understand what you are reading and realize that the Bible states that there is only one God that exists I will answer the rest if you can remember the concept of only one God that exists.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon

Try answering the stated questions that I ask. The Bible clearly states that there is only one God that exists. Try to answer and keep in mind the Bible says;

Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Once you can understand what you are reading and realize that the Bible states that there is only one God that exists I will answer the rest if you can remember the concept of only one God that exists.

Try to keep in mind the NT writers did not adopt the Deutero-Isaiah theology:

1 Corinthians 8:6--King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

The OT writers believed in the Council of the gods:

Psalm 82:1--King James Version (KJV)
82 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

Prior to the second temple period--the OT writers believed in the reality of the Divine Council--and frequently made reference to it.

Paul believed there were other gods than the Godhead also:

2 Corinthians 4:4---King James Version (KJV)
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

So--was Paul polytheistic, according to the modern definition?


noun poly·the·ism --Merriam Webster

: the belief that there is more than one god

[Saxon]

Try to keep in mind the NT writers did not adopt the Deutero-Isaiah theology:

1 Corinthians 8:6--King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

The OT writers believed in the Council of the gods:

Psalm 82:1--King James Version (KJV)
82 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

Keep in mind that the New Testament writers did remain true to the Old Testament theology. Whenever the New Testament writers referred their readers the scriptures they were direction them the Old Testament as the New Testament had not been written yet.

I do wish that I could be as careless about the Bible as you are then thing would be much easier. Mind you if that were the case then there would never be any coming to the truth. Your slackness with the Bible is going to cause you great despair when you wake up one day and find yourself physically DEAD.

Isaiah 43:10 and Isaiah 44:8 is sufficient to tell you that God said that there is no other God but him. So you still want to believe LDS that there are hordes of gods that have been created over the eons of time? How can you, who claims to be a Bible believer, sit there with your bare face hanging out, and decide that there is more than one God?

Seeing that the Bible is clear that there are no other gods but one, what is the Psalm writer saying? He can’t be saying that there is any other real God because the Bible is clear that there is only one God. There are those that are called gods but that does not make them Gods in reality. If you can read Isaiah 43:10 and Isaiah 44:8 and still want to believe that there is more than one God while claiming that you believe the Bible; there is no hope for you.

Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Prior to the second temple period--the OT writers believed in the reality of the Divine Council--and frequently made reference to it.

The only way that statement would be true is if you do not believe the Bible. (See Isaiah 43:10 and Isaiah 44:8) There is no reference to any Divine Council in the context that you support, more than one God.

This is another incomplete answer, show the references you are alluding to.

Paul believed there were other gods than the Godhead also:

2 Corinthians 4:4---King James Version (KJV)
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

So--was Paul polytheistic, according to the modern definition?

Paul believed the Old Testament, there is only one God. (See 1 Corinthians 8:4 to 6) There is those that are called gods but that does not make them Gods in reality. If you can read Isaiah 43:10 Isaiah 44:8 and 1 Corinthians 8:4 to 6 and still want to believe that there is more than one God while claiming that you believe the Bible; there is no hope for you.

1 Corinthians 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
1 Corinthians 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

noun poly•the•ism --Merriam Webster

: the belief that there is more than one god

By this definition, which is correct, all LDS are polytheists which is contrary to the Bible that declares that there is only one God. Are you sure that you really believe the Bible???

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon

Seeing that the Bible is clear that there are no other gods but one, what is the Psalm writer saying? He can’t be saying that there is any other real God because the Bible is clear that there is only one God. There are those that are called gods but that does not make them Gods in reality.

OT writers believed in the reality of the Divine Council of the Gods--the scholars are now in consensus with that:

http://www.michaelsheiser.com/diss%2...esentation.pdf

https://gematriacodes.wordpress.com/...ouncil-elohim/

Paul and the NT writers believed in the "one God"--and it was not God the Son:

1 Corinthians 8:6--King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

And this "one God" was the God and Father of Jesus Christ--and all of mankind:

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

1 Peter 1:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Ephesians 1:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

The Biblical NT testifies that God the Son--the Savior and Redeemer of the world--- had a God and Father also.

Hebrews 1:1-9---King James Version (KJV)
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

[Saxon]

OT writers believed in the reality of the Divine Council of the Gods--the scholars are now in consensus with that:

http://www.michaelsheiser.com/diss%2...esentation.pdf

https://gematriacodes.wordpress.com/...ouncil-elohim/

I am not familiar with Michael Sheiser. But from what I read from the link that you posted, I cannot agree with him whatsoever. He seems to forget that the Israelites were monotheists, hard core. To me your link is worthless as it also contradicts the bible.

Paul and the NT writers believed in the "one God"--and it was not God the Son:

Your concept of the “one God” and the “Trinity” are not in accordance with the Bible. Paul and the New Testament writers believed that there is only one God and they claim that the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are the one God, the Trinity from a biblical sorce.

1 Corinthians 8:6--King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

And this "one God" was the God and Father of Jesus Christ--and all of mankind:

If you compare Bible scripture with Bible scripture you will soon discover that you are twisting scripture to your own thoughts, not the thoughts and intent of the Bible writers. I hope that you notice that even in your references that you are also claiming “one God”. Instead of the myriad of gods that the LDS claim.

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

1 Peter 1:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Ephesians 1:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

The Biblical NT testifies that God the Son--the Savior and Redeemer of the world--- had a God and Father also.

Hebrews 1:1-9---King James Version (KJV)
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Your lack of knowledge of the Trinity and the incarnation of Christ leads you to your false conclusions. Read the Bible for what it says instead of what the LDS say it says. You should also start believing the Bible as well.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

OT writers believed in the reality of the Divine Council of the Gods--the scholars are now in consensus with that:

http://www.michaelsheiser.com/diss%2...esentation.pdf

https://gematriacodes.wordpress.com/...ouncil-elohim/

Paul and the NT writers believed in the "one God"--and it was not God the Son:

1 Corinthians 8:6--King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

And this "one God" was the God and Father of Jesus Christ--and all of mankind:

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

1 Peter 1:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Ephesians 1:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

The Biblical NT testifies that God the Son--the Savior and Redeemer of the world--- had a God and Father also.

Hebrews 1:1-9---King James Version (KJV)
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Originally Posted by Saxon

I am not familiar with Michael Sheiser. But from what I read from the link that you posted, I cannot agree with him whatsoever. He seems to forget that the Israelites were monotheists, hard core. To me your link is worthless as it also contradicts the bible.

That's Michael Heiser--and what do you believe it contradicts about the Bible?

Psalm 82:1---King James Version (KJV)
82 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

Again--there isn't one credible scholar that I am aware of--that denies the Israelites, prior to the second temple era--did not believe in the reality of the Divine Council of the Gods. That includes writers of the OT Biblical text--as Psalm82 shows.

Your concept of the “one God” and the “Trinity” are not in accordance with the Bible.

Are you saying the NT writers were wrong?

1 Corinthians 8:6--King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Could you give us one quote where NT writers included God the Son into the "one God" designation? One NT reference where it mentions the term "Trinity"?

Paul and the New Testament writers believed that there is only one God and they claim that the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are the one God, the Trinity from a biblical sorce.

Please give us a Biblical NT quote where the Father, Son and Holy Ghost were included in the "one God" designation. "One"--yes--but never the "one God", IE--

John 17:20-22---King James Version (KJV)
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Again--whenever NT writers mentioned the "one God"--it was always the God and Father of Jesus Christ--and they always separated out God the Son--and placed Him in another designation:

1 Corinthians 8:6--King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

If you compare Bible scripture with Bible scripture you will soon discover that you are twisting scripture to your own thoughts, not the thoughts and intent of the Bible writers.

What do you consider as "twisting scripture" about the scriptures included in my above post--or the scriptures being independent of the thoughts and intents of "Bible writers"?

You do realize 1Cor, Ephesians, 1Tomothy, etc--are books found within the Biblical NT?

IOW--I post the scriptures--you deny their truth.

Your lack of knowledge of the Trinity ...

The Biblical writers must have lacked knowledge about the Trinity also--they never once mentioned any such term.

Saxon--any NT writer who separated out God the Son from the "one God"--and placed Him in another designation--could never qualify to accept your theology.

[Saxon]

That's Michael Heiser--and what do you believe it contradicts about the Bible?

Psalm 82:1---King James Version (KJV)
82 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

Again--there isn't one credible scholar that I am aware of--that denies the Israelites, prior to the second temple era--did not believe in the reality of the Divine Council of the Gods. That includes writers of the OT Biblical text--as Psalm82 shows.

The Bible is clear, there is only one God. Any one that says different is in contradiction of the Bible.

Psalm 82 is not claiming a bunch of other gods. Scripture does not contradict scripture. When I say scripture I only include Bible as there is no more scripture.

Are you saying the NT writers were wrong?

1 Corinthians 8:6--King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Could you give us one quote where NT writers included God the Son into the "one God" designation? One NT reference where it mentions the term "Trinity"?

No, I am not saying that the New Testament writers were wrong. I am saying that you are wrong. From what I have been reading from your posts over the months, I have come to the conclusion that you have no true Bible knowledge at all.

There is only one God. The Father is identified as God. The Son is identified as God and the Holy Ghost is identified as God. There is only one God, therefore the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are the one God.

What do you consider as "twisting scripture" about the scriptures included in my above post--or the scriptures being independent of the thoughts and intents of "Bible writers"?

You do realize 1Cor, Ephesians, 1Tomothy, etc--are books found within the Biblical NT?

IOW--I post the scriptures--you deny their truth.

Twisting scripture is when you try to make scripture contradict what is clearly stated. The Bible says only one God and you say more than one God. The Bible says not of works and you say works are needed.

Yes I know that those books are found in the New Testament of the Bible.

You post scriptures and I deny that you are using them as the authors intended. The scriptures are true but your use of them is not right.

The Biblical writers must have lacked knowledge about the Trinity also--they never once mentioned any such term.

The Bible authors knew of the Trinity concept but not the trem. The Trinity concept is directly from the Bible. Because you do not know the Bible is not a reason for anyone to deny it’s truth.

Saxon--any NT writer who separated out God the Son from the "one God"--and placed Him in another designation--could never qualify to accept your theology.

Do you have any idea what the incarnation is all about. (God becoming a man) Of course you don’t.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

That's Michael Heiser--and what do you believe it contradicts about the Bible?

Psalm 82:1---King James Version (KJV)
82 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

Again--there isn't one credible scholar that I am aware of--that denies the Israelites, prior to the second temple era--did not believe in the reality of the Divine Council of the Gods. That includes writers of the OT Biblical text--as Psalm82 shows.



Are you saying the NT writers were wrong?

1 Corinthians 8:6--King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Could you give us one quote where NT writers included God the Son into the "one God" designation? One NT reference where it mentions the term "Trinity"?

Please give us a Biblical NT quote where the Father, Son and Holy Ghost were included in the "one God" designation. "One"--yes--but never the "one God", IE--

John 17:20-22---King James Version (KJV)
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Again--whenever NT writers mentioned the "one God"--it was always the God and Father of Jesus Christ--and they always separated out God the Son--and placed Him in another designation:

1 Corinthians 8:6--King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Originally Posted by Saxon

The Bible is clear, there is only one God. Any one that says different is in contradiction of the Bible.

Then why do you insist on something that is in contradiction to the Biblical NT?

1 Corinthians 8:6--King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

In case you did not notice--God the Son is not included in the "one God" of the NT--ever.

Psalm 82 is not claiming a bunch of other gods.

What is it about Psalm 82 you are in denial of?

Psalm 82:1---King James Version (KJV)
82 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

Paul not only separated the "one God"--and God the Son--he also believed in the reality of another god:

2 Corinthians 4:4---King James Version (KJV)
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Was Paul polytheistic?

[Saxon]

Trinitarianism isn't based in Christianity, its roots are in Paganism. The Bible never supports the trinity idea, it is a concept that was created through various councils with the creeds that came from the philosophies of men. Berrie gave you a list of scriptures directly from the Bible showing that it doesn't teach what you believe. The verses you gave are very out of context. For example "I and my Father are one" doesn't mean trinitarianism. This particular verse refers to being one in purpose. The Savior prays that the saints become one in Him as He is one in the Father. This shows that Jesus didn't mean what you believe. If Jesus meant what you claim, we would all become one m***ive trinity. We are to be one in Jesus meaning we are to make His will ours as the Father's is Jesus's will.

You have no idea of what you are talking about. (See Do Mormons believe in the Trinity?) This is from an LDS web site. There is no indication that LDS do not have a concept of the Trinity. The term is not used as it is not a Bible term. Godhead is used for the same aspect of how God exists. I do realize that the Mormon concept is in contradiction to the Bible concept of the Trinity but the idea is there and from Mormon sources. Your “paganism roots” is false.

Do Mormons believe in the Trinity? (http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/mormonism-101#C5)

Mormons most commonly use the term “Godhead” to refer to the Trinity. The first article of faith for the Latter-day Saints reads: “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.” Latter-day Saints believe God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are one in will and purpose but are not literally the same being or substance, as conceptions of the Holy Trinity commonly imply.

Your not being able to read and comprehend what is said is unbelievable. I know that Mormons are generally well educated and can read and comprehend many books that are difficult to grasp but when it comes to the Bible, there is no ability to understand even the simplest concepts.

There is only one God. The Father is identified as God. The Son is identified as God. The Holy Ghost is identified as God. Therefore the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are the one God. Nothing too hard or pagan about that. What is pagan is the idea that there is more than one God in existence. Now who believes that? Not Christians.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Anyone separating Jesus Christ(God the Son) out from the "one God" can in no way be considered a Trinitarian.

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

The "one God" of the Biblical NT was Jesus' God and Father:

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Bump for anyone

Originally Posted by Saxon

So you are not a Trinitarian because you have separated Jesus from the ONE God and made him, the Holy Ghost and the Father three separate gods.

Paul and the NT writers always separated out God the Son from the "one God":

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Again--could you explain how Trinitarianism fits into that scenario?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon

There is only one God. The Father is identified as God. The Son is identified as God. The Holy Ghost is identified as God. Therefore the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are the one God.

Could you give us any NT verse that states the Father, Son and Holy Ghost is the "one God"?

How could the NT writers believe that--and testify to this truth?

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Nothing too hard or pagan about that. What is pagan is the idea that there is more than one God in existence. Now who believes that? Not Christians.

Are you saying that Paul was not Christian?

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

True--there was only One that was designated as the "one God" in the Biblical NT---and it was not God the Son.

Were OT writers Christian?

Psalm 82:1---King James Version (KJV)
82 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Could you give us any NT verse that states the Father, Son and Holy Ghost is the "one God"?

How could the NT writers believe that--and testify to this truth?

"This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one." 1John 5:6-7

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by disciple

"This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one." 1John 5:6-7

But that only connects it in this context:

John 17:20-23---King James Version (KJV)
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

To make your point--it would have to designate the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as the "one God".

Where do we find that designation in the Biblical NT?

Again--the NT writers never designated anyone other than God the Father as the "one God", IE--

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Anyone who testified to that truth could never be ***igned a belief of Trinitarianism. Quite to the contrary.

God the Son was always separated from the "one God" of the NT.

[Saxon]

Then why do you insist on something that is in contradiction to the Biblical NT?

1 Corinthians 8:6--King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

In case you did not notice--God the Son is not included in the "one God" of the NT--ever.

You have no concept of the eternal God, Father Son and Holy Ghost being the one God. The Son who is the eternal God in conjunction with the Father and Holy Ghost became a man and what you are seeing but not grasping is, God in the form and fashion of a man. There is nothing contradictory about it, it is your ignorance of what the Bible actually teaches

Ever?? You do not know the Bible. Who was the word that was with God and was God? He is the same word that was made flesh, and dwelt among us.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

What is it about Psalm 82 you are in denial of?

Psalm 82:1---King James Version (KJV)
82 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

Paul not only separated the "one God"--and God the Son--he also believed in the reality of another god:

2 Corinthians 4:4---King James Version (KJV)
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Was Paul polytheistic?

There is nothing in Psalms 82 that I deny. What I deny is the idea that you are trying to make a case for the polytheistic idea of more than one God. This is contrary to Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 44:8, Isaiah 45:22 and Isaiah 46:9.

Paul was not a polytheist, see 1 Corinthians 8:4.

Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

1 Corinthians 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

[Saxon]

Could you give us any NT verse that states the Father, Son and Holy Ghost is the "one God"?

How could the NT writers believe that--and testify to this truth?

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

You have no concept of the eternal God, Father Son and Holy Ghost being the one God. The Son who is the eternal God in conjunction with the Father and Holy Ghost became a man and what you are seeing but not grasping is, God in the form and fashion of a man. There is nothing contradictory about it, it is your ignorance of what the Bible actually teaches

You do not know the Bible. Who was the word that was with God and was God? He is the same word that was made flesh, and dwelt among us.

I know that Mormons believe that the Father is God. John 1:1 says that the Word was with God and was God. John 1:14 indicates the word is Jesus and Acts 5:3 and 4 indicates that the Holy Ghost is God. Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 44:8, Isaiah 45:22 and Isaiah 46:9 clearly state that there is ONLY ONE God, a fact that Paul confirms in 1 Corinthians 8:4.

Fact: there is only one God. Fact: the Father is called God. Fact: the Son is called God. Fact: the Holy Ghost is called God. Fact: the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are the one God.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Acts 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
1 Corinthians 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

Are you saying that Paul was not Christian?

I would really like to know how you arrived at that conclusion. It wasn’t from reading my posts, if you actually do read them. Of course Paul was a Christian.

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

True--there was only One that was designated as the "one God" in the Biblical NT---and it was not God the Son.

See the first response in this post.

Were OT writers Christian?

Psalm 82:1---King James Version (KJV)
82 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

The Old Testament writers were not called Christians, but they were of the same belief as Christians. They were on the other side of the cross and were waiting for the Christ to come to save them. We are on this side of the cross and trust that Christ has saved those that believe.

Because you do not understand Psalms 82 does not change the fact that there is only one God that exists.

[Saxon]

Look to other posts that I put up today. I am no going to repeat it.