Pahoran--I hope IOW stands for "in other words" and not "id*iot*s on wheels."So, IOW, this board is committed to a long-discredited canard (see here) which no-one is permitted to challenge.
Got it.
Regards,
Pahoran
Two points:
First, although you are welcome here, no one is twisting your arm to remain a member. You have the freedom as a Mormon to argue against our stated position that the term "LDS Christian" is an oxymoron. You do not have the freedom to use the term LDS Christian, just as a Jehovah's Witness would not have the freedom to use misleading and inaccurate terms.
A heart pumps blood and a lung processes oxygen; you cannot redefine them and still be considered credible. The same is true with theological terms. The God of the Bible is not married and never mentions Kolob (edited to correct misstatement).
Christians hold the Bible to be the infallible, only Word of God, with all writings held to its standard--Mormons do not. Christians categorize Joseph Smith Jr. as a liar and a false prophet--Mormons do not. I could go on and on, but you get the point. Logically, Mormons are not Christians.
Second, the only ones claiming that our argument is "long discredited" are Mormons, so why would I consider Daniel Peterson's arguments to be valid, when he is a Mormon apologist?
How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God. 1 John 3:1
Would you be OK if I dug out my LDS missionary badge and went around teaching others my current beliefs while at the same time claiming I was a Mormon?
Sure! Of course the problem with your ****ogy is that you want to be called a Mormon, and yet go around telling everyone that Mormonism is wrong and its leaders and tenants are false.
Mormons go around telling people they are Christians and tell them why they believe Jesus Christ is TRUE, the Savior of the world, the Redeemer, Son of God, etc....
Most people with common sense will see the difference in someone who calls themself one thing but professes another and someone who calls themself one thing and verifies it by word and deed.
Too many problems to address here.Pahoran--I hope IOW stands for "in other words" and not "id*iot*s on wheels."
Two points:
First, although you are welcome here, no one is twisting your arm to remain a member. You have the freedom as a Mormon to argue against our stated position that the term "LDS Christian" is an oxymoron. You do not have the freedom to claim to be Christian, just as a Jehovah's Witness would not have the freedom to claim this.
A heart pumps blood and a lung processes oxygen; you cannot redefine them and still be considered credible. The same is true with theological terms. The God of the Bible is not married and doesn't mention Kolob (edited to correct misstatement). Christians hold the Bible to be the infallible, only Word of God, with all writings held to its standard--Mormons do not. Christians categorize Joseph Smith Jr. as a liar and a false prophet--Mormons do not. I could go on and on, but you get the point. Logically, Mormons are not Christians.
Second, the only ones claiming that our argument is "long discredited" are Mormons, so why would I consider Daniel Peterson's arguments to be valid, when he is a Mormon apologist?
But let me get this one aspect right. LDS are not allowed to call themselves Christians here anymore or claim they are Christian?
I just interpret it differently than you and thus would give others a clearer understanding of true Mormonism.
BTW is that what YOU are doing to Christians when you go around and teach investigators that Christianity is wrong and you are right?
LOL...If you want to go around appearing to be a representative of the Mormon church, and then telling people that the things the Mormon church believe in and its leaders are false, I'm not too worried about the numbers of followers you will have.
Of course Christianity is defined as those who profess in and believe in Jesus Christ as their Savior. Since LDS do this they have more right to be called a Christian than you would to be called Mormon.
EDIT to ADD: I'm sure there will be a litmus test of the criteria required to be called a Christian, right? Jill indicated that a Christian is someone who denounces Joseph SMith. Is that one of the new extra-biblical requirements for being a Christian?
I would tell them that the LDS church is changing from the inside out and moving more mainstream. And that they have officially changed their beliefs somewhat such as the Book of Mormon is not a true history but a feel good book that has good religious principles and stories, particularly good stories to help your kids fall asleep really fast.
You see it is all about perspective. You interpret the Bible differently than I do. I interpret Mormonism differently than you do. I would tell them the truth about Mormonism the way that I interpret it.
Yes, but you just got through claiming that:
That is not just your perspective. You are claiming the LDS made an official statement to support your "perspective", which is false and would be lying.
But the issue is much more simple: You want to call yourself a Mormon and then tell everyone why from your perspective Mormonism is false and a satanic-cult.
LDS call themsleves Christian and then tell everyone why they believe in Jesus Christ and look to Him for their salvation.
Your argument only makes sense if the issue is that LDS call themselves Christian and then go around telling people that Jesus Christ is false, not the Savior, a fraud, and you shouldn't follow Him, etc...
He could just tell them that Mormonism has been "re-restored".
You guys can't seem to agree on what is and what is not doctrine (teaching), and doctrine shifts through time anyway in the LDS church, I will just tell them it is true but from an unofficial source similar to FARMS etc.
LOL....again, for those that can't seem to grasp this simple concept: You can call yourself what you want, but if you call yourself something only to denounce everything it entails, you only fool yourself and nobody really cares. ANd if you want to call yourself a Mormon and then tell people false things about Mormonism, that really says more about the type of Christian you really claim to be.
And again, for Libby, Billy's attempt at making a cogent ****ogy only works of LDS call themselves Christians while denying the very Christ. That isn't the case (even though you'll argue it is by virtue of our different interpretations of scripture).
I don't think even Gumby could stretch as far as you guys are trying to here!
I do believe that the LDS church denies "the very Christ" of the Bible. They absolutely do. That's why Billy's ****ogy is right on the mark.LOL....again, for those that can't seem to grasp this simple concept: You can call yourself what you want, but if you call yourself something only to denounce everything it entails, you only fool yourself and nobody really cares. ANd if you want to call yourself a Mormon and then tell people false things about Mormonism, that really says more about the type of Christian you really claim to be.
And again, for Libby, Billy's attempt at making a cogent ****ogy only works of LDS call themselves Christians while denying the very Christ. That isn't the case (even though you'll argue it is by virtue of our different interpretations of scripture).
I don't think even Gumby could stretch as far as you guys are trying to here!
ANd if you want to call yourself a Christian and then tell people false things about Christianity, that really says more about the type of Christian you really claim to be.
LOL....you just tell them that then.
Your argument seemed to change in just one post. Why would anyone fear you calling yourself Mormon!
How funny, though, that this whole conversation is about you calling yourself a Mormon only to profess negativity about the Mormon church, and LDS calling themselves Christians only to profess a belief in Jesus Christ.
Most people will see the difference here.
Vlad, I feel the same way every time I read your posts.
For the last time, the term LDS Christian is contradictory, misleading, and inaccurate. Don't use it here.
How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God. 1 John 3:1
Zing!!!
You win.
Go ahead and call yourself a Mormon.
I'll continue to call myself a Christian.
You deny Mormonism.
I affirm Jesus Christ as my Savior.
Let the people decide who is more worthy of the ***le they have taken upon themselves.
Not negativity. I still like funeral potatoes, green jello, and I occasional break out in song like one of my old time favorites "popcorn popping on the apricot tree".
Funeral potatoes...yum! I loved a lot of things about Mormon culture, including a lot of the music. Plus, I am still on the rolls, so technically I am still LDS...even though I "profess negativity about the Mormon church".
Vlad you may like MormonThink's website, it has a lot of very good information. Below is a little snippet about who they are
http://MormonThink.com/
How do you differ from the New Order Mormons?
Very similar in beliefs, but one difference is that many New Order Mormons (NOM) remain affiliated with the church primarily for the benefit of their individual families and are not necessarily actively engaged in trying to 'change' the church. Those that follow the MormonThink philosophy generally take a more active role in promoting true history over the commonly-held beliefs that are generally taught in the church.
MormonThink followers recognize that staying in the church, in an effort to help educate others and course correct the church towards total honesty, is an altruistic endeavor designed to help others receive more knowledge so they can make informed decisions regarding the church.
Both NOMs and MormonThink followers generally enjoy being ***ociated with the church and its members and don't wish to abandon a group that they still feel they identify with even if they have religious views not in harmony with most mainstream LDS congregations."
There you go. See? You can call yourself a Mormon or LDS but people will know if you really adhere to that name/ label/ etc or not. The problem you and Billy have is that your own words condemn your calling yourselves "Mormon". Yet you can only use your own perspectives and ideologies to try and justify why a Mormon who professes a belief in Jesus cannot be calle a follower of Jesus ie. Christian.
Take a look at the my post just prior to yours about the Mormon Think Mormons. They call themselves Mormon yet they do not believe in traditional Mormonism. Also New Order Mormons consider themselves Mormon but don't believe in Mormonism as a TBM would.
Here is what Jill posted on the use of derogatory terms. I can't even refer to myself as a Christian as that is misleading because the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. And not only that but addressing other board members as "Mormon" is construed as derogatory.
The definition of a derogatory term is one that insults,belittles or treats a group or individual with contempt. This applies to terms like "anti-Mormon" and "Circuit Mormon".
As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board.
One more thing: Do NOT address other board members as "Mormon" or by any other term that can be construed as derogatory. Refer to other members by their USERNAME only. This warning should be quite clear and anyone who does not listen to it will have their account suspended without warning.
Effective immediately,members who use derogatory terms will be warned once, and the second time they will be banned indefinitely without warning. A third infraction will result in a long term account suspension.