Evolution does not stand up to biblical scrutiny

[disciple]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I dont teach evolution...

What do I quote to support my views?.....the Bible.

When I talk about how God created life on the earth,what book to I quote?.....the bible.

When I tell people to open a book to read for themselves what it says god did, what book am I referring to?....the Bible.


When I say that God's word supports my views, wherein that word found?...in the bible.



As foryour question referring to my ability to teach the bible to students?....if you want to prove me wrong then just take anything I have said and show me in the Bible that "It does not say that in the bible"!!!



But as you cant do that because I always quote the bible correctly, then the best you can do i guess is what?......paint me as a unbeliever?....perhaps try to drag me into a debate over evolution again?




good luck with that....

All right Alan, for what seems like the 100th time, open the Bible and show us where evolution (a theory) walks
"hand in hand" (your own words) with the bible. Quote the bible correctly anywhere where it even hints that man evolved from
lower life forms. Don't change the subject and talk about light or dust, show us how evolution walks hand in hand with the
truth of the Bible. And by the way, I don't think you are an unbeliever I just think you are blinded by science.

[alanmolstad]

Now some may ask..."How can Evolution be said to agree in any way with Genesis?"

Here is my answer- first...what is the common understanding we can both agree on about what Evolution teaches?

I think we can understand without disagreement that evolution teaches that life as we know it now can be traced back to earlier forms...

correct?

You agree with that?

Im not asking you to agree with evolution, just agree with me as to what it teaches us...


so as we go back in time according to evolution we will be tracing life back to early and earlier forms of life...
This continues until you get to the final source of all life on this world, that being this earth itself.



this actually is one of the most fun things about evolution that i like the most...the fact that according to evolution,Life is from this earth...
What this means is that God's creation is a creation of life....and this leads me to the hope that life is not just a natural result of this one earth,,but that life is found on many such worlds.

In fact,I hope that the stars we see in the night say are not just pin-points of glowing gas, but actually God has planted a "garden"in the night sky....
and that life has evolved not just in a few spots, but darn near everywhere!

So that more or less is what evolution means to me...

Its a natural force...

its like the rain or the sun's light...

its a thing God has created to support life,for God is a God of the living not the dead.


Now,,,,back to my answer to you...

Now that we have decided that according to the teachings of evolution all life is a part of this earth itself, and that the final source for life is this very same earth...lets compare this tothe source of life as taught in the Bible!!!!!!




So where are humans from according to the bible?

the answer is found at Genesis 3:19
"By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;


so here we see that the source of human life is said to be"the ground"
That is where we are "taken" from.

So according to Genesis humans are from the earth...and as we already saw that according to evolution humans are also from this earth itself.



Thus, although genesis does not actually "teach"evolution, it yet is in full agreement as to this important point as to the "source"of all life on this earth.


So we can say that the two works say very different things in very different ways,let are able to join hands when they get the the very same starting point of all life on this good earth!

[alanmolstad]

so as we have decided, Evolution is well known to teach that life is a natural part of this earth,,and that all life, both animal and human, have as their final source of this earth...that the very building blocks of the very earliest form of life are of this earth itself.

and in the post above we learned that humans are also from this earth,, and that the ground of this earth is our source of life...

We now should look at what the bible says is the animals source?...where are all the animals from?


Genesis 2:19-
"So out of the ground the Lord God formed every animal of the field and every bird of the air..."

thus once again we confirm the agreement with evolution as to the final source of life for all the animals..

This also means that just as in evolution we learn that animals and humans share the very same source, so too this is the teaching of the Bible....Humans and all the animals share a common source.

[jude1:3]

[jude1:3]

Originally Posted by disciple

All right Alan, for what seems like the 100th time, open the Bible and show us where evolution (a theory) walks
"hand in hand" (your own words) with the bible. Quote the bible correctly anywhere where it even hints that man evolved from
lower life forms. Don't change the subject and talk about light or dust, show us how evolution walks hand in hand with the
truth of the Bible. And by the way, I don't think you are an unbeliever I just think you are blinded by science.

Surely Alan will reply directly to your post. Let's just keep waiting :

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by jude1:3

Surely Alan will reply directly to your post. Let's just keep waiting :

see post #213 and #214 above for my response.

if there is any part of my response you want to talk about, just let me know.

Right now I think it answers the question I was asked.

[alanmolstad]

MichaellS seems to have dropped out of this?

[MichaellS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

MichaellS seems to have dropped out of this?

Hello Alan, everyone!

Oh there has been a falling away alright. Anytime you want to drag up one of those posts that Jude 1:3, Disciple or I went down the trail of travail for you over, yet dealt us stern refusal, just pick out anyone of them and anyone of us would be happy to correspond as though it were yesterday.

The choice is yours, stay with the old status quo, or choose life.

“, , choose for yourselves today whom you will serve, ,” (Joshua 24:15)

"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, ,” (Deuteronomy 30:19)

[alanmolstad]

If I ever teach anything you don't think is written in the bible just ask me to provide a quote

[MichaellS]

Yes, I would like you to show me in the Bible the justification for refusal of communication, such a this last post. We post - you intercept - and supply a foreign, totally unrelated entry.

Show or quote for me the justification for refusal of communication??

That would be most interesting.

But is Jude1:3 right?

Will you again respond with more rhetorical drivel?

And that is what this thread will always be according to Alan, nonsense, because you don't communicate.

See ya around!

[alanmolstad]

If I have taught anything about what a genesis says that you think is not found in the text just ask me where the verse is and I will show you.

Also if there is any of my teachings you don't think are supported by the genesis text just ask and I will quote you the verse.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Also if there is any of my teachings you don't think are supported by the genesis text just ask and I will quote you the verse.

Now let me take a moment to talk about what I teach the Text in the Bible supports.

I teach that the first thing the Bible lists that god created was the stars and all the other stuff out there in space, INCLUDING our own sun.

i teach that the Bible supports the idea that the word "day" has many different meanings depending on the context of how the word is used.
It can be talking about a limited amount of time, or a very unlimited amount of time...and the tricky part of that is that sometimes it cane be pointing to both understandings at the same time.

I teach that human are a part of this earth that has come to life.

I teach that humans share a common starting point with all other animals like the great apes,,,and that starting point is listed in the bible as being this earth itself.

I teach that the bible has very clear endings to 6 of the 7 days of the creation week....but that there is no ending listed for the 7th day.

I teach that there is no listed ending to the 7th day at any point that matches what is written about the other 6 days...not in the story of Genesis, not in the whole book of Genesis, notin the whole Old testament, nor at any point in the whole Bible!

I teach that the earth was created as a dead and DRY world.

I teach that the reason the earth is said to be in darkness was because God wrapped the early earth in a thick wrapping of dark clouds.

I teach that the clouds are from the mist that came later from underground.

I teach that this mist was able to cover the whole surface of the earth with water, and that this is where the water came from that is talked about in Genesis 1 as "the deep".

I teach that the whole story of Genesis and the creation is told from the point of view of someone just hovering over the surface of the waters.

I teach that the sun is created on the first day.

I teach that the "light" talked about in Genesis is, both the light talked about on Day 1,,,and the lights talked about on the 4th day, are all the same light, and that it has a single source the sun, that was created on the first day.

I teach that the 'lights' talked about on the 4thday are only the description of the "Amounts" of light seen from the perspective of someone hovering over the surface of the seas.

I teach that the Bible does not actually say that the stars were 'made"on the 4th day, but that this is an addition to the text of the Bible that was inserted later to agree with young earth creationism....

I teach that if you remove the un-needed and added wording to the story of the 4th day and read it as the writer intended,then all you see fits nicely with the story of what the "lesser light" rules over (ie the night and the stars)

[disciple]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Now let me take a moment to talk about what I teach the Text in the Bible supports.

I teach that the first thing the Bible lists that god created was the stars and all the other stuff out there in space, INCLUDING our own sun.

i teach that the Bible supports the idea that the word "day" has many different meanings depending on the context of how the word is used.
It can be talking about a limited amount of time, or a very unlimited amount of time...and the tricky part of that is that sometimes it cane be pointing to both understandings at the same time.

I teach that human are a part of this earth that has come to life.

I teach that humans share a common starting point with all other animals like the great apes,,,and that starting point is listed in the bible as being this earth itself.

I teach that the bible has very clear endings to 6 of the 7 days of the creation week....but that there is no ending listed for the 7th day.

I teach that there is no listed ending to the 7th day at any point that matches what is written about the other 6 days...not in the story of Genesis, not in the whole book of Genesis, notin the whole Old testament, nor at any point in the whole Bible!

I teach that the earth was created as a dead and DRY world.

I teach that the reason the earth is said to be in darkness was because God wrapped the early earth in a thick wrapping of dark clouds.

I teach that the clouds are from the mist that came later from underground.

I teach that this mist was able to cover the whole surface of the earth with water, and that this is where the water came from that is talked about in Genesis 1 as "the deep".

I teach that the whole story of Genesis and the creation is told from the point of view of someone just hovering over the surface of the waters.

I teach that the sun is created on the first day.

I teach that the "light" talked about in Genesis is, both the light talked about on Day 1,,,and the lights talked about on the 4th day, are all the same light, and that it has a single source the sun, that was created on the first day.

I teach that the 'lights' talked about on the 4thday are only the description of the "Amounts" of light seen from the perspective of someone hovering over the surface of the seas.

I teach that the Bible does not actually say that the stars were 'made"on the 4th day, but that this is an addition to the text of the Bible that was inserted later to agree with young earth creationism....

I teach that if you remove the un-needed and added wording to the story of the 4th day and read it as the writer intended,then all you see fits nicely with the story of what the "lesser light" rules over (ie the night and the stars)

Alan, who are you teaching? No one agrees with you.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by disciple

Alan, .... No one agrees with you.

I don't care...

[MichaellS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I don't care...

Isn’t this the same dead message that a liberal parasite church wants the benefit of, to creep their way in, not sparing the flock?

After Jesus and the Spirit telling us, ,

“with God, all things are possible” (Matthew 19:26)

Yet,

“without faith, it is impossible to please Him” (Hebrews 11:6)

There’s many folks like Alan who have come so far to completely turn everything around for their own detriment.

Today, they’re idea of approaching the Holy Spirit "isn’t likely, and such lack of faith is still pleasing to God”

See what I mean, and I emphasize, complete reversal. How nicely it works hand-in-hand with the above quote.

But Alan didn’t recognize that last comment of mine took and led him away like a child. The temptation to devourer was all Alan was concerned with, though most saw his response coming a mile off, proving what I suspected,; it isn't that you "don't care", it is that you hate the thought of the life of Christ as it is taught.

"Do you think that the scripture says in vain, The spirit that dwells in us lusts to envy?" (James 4:5)

Still don’t understand my words Alan? That’s alright, I have plenty who do. And aren't ever seeking and working to shrug the Holy Spirit’s ministry.

We love Him,

We expect from Him

We wait on, and many of us find Him daily,,,,,,,,,what a comfort He is! Amen!

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Now let me take a moment to talk about what I teach the Text in the Bible supports.

I teach that the first thing the Bible lists that god created was the stars and all the other stuff out there in space, INCLUDING our own sun.

i

if you doubt what Im saying is true?...then just ask me to show you where in the Bible what Im saying is taught.

[MichaellS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

if you doubt what Im saying is true?...then just ask me to show you where in the Bible what Im saying is taught.

I did ask you. Where in the bible is it?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MichaellS

I did ask you. Where in the bible is it?

It's found at Genesis 1:1 (Hint: that's near the front of your Bible)

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

"In the beginning " (Beginning =at the start, before all other things)
"God" (This is the person doing the action)
"created" (this is the action taking place)
"the heavens" ( all the things found in the day/night sky including the sun, the stars, the other worlds , and also the things we don't even know about or have names for yet)
"and the earth" The earth is introduced into the Genesis story here and it now becomes the center of the Writer's story. Genesis is a story about this Earth, and it told from the stand point as we shall see of a person hovering just over the seas on this earth)


So lets put this all together then and go over what is being taught to us.
What the Bible is teaching us is this:

The term "beginning" means the start of something, There is no such thing as something having two beginnings, There is no such thing as "One" being the "second first"...LOL
This fact cant be denied.

That the very first thing the Bible lists as whats God created at the very start of his creation work was the "heavens".
This fact cant be denied.

The word "Heavens" can mean a few things in different situations but among the correct meanings found in the Bible for the term "Heavens" is the concept of all the stars and everything else that is found in the night sky.
This fact cant be denied .

The sun is a star.
This fact cant be denied .

So the Bible is telling us that the very first thing that God created at the beginning of the creation are the stars like our own sun.
This fact cant be denied.



So to conclude,
You have asked where do I get the teaching that god created the stars like our own sun first (in agreement with what Science teaches by the way)?...The answer is "At Genesis 1:1"





next question?

[alanmolstad]

PS.....

and Im kinda sure that when I say "I don't care" it pretty much means that I simply don't care about it.

I don't give a darn....I don't have any feelings one way or the other about it...I'm completely indifferent to it...



It's the same when people insult me, for then too I simply don't care.


and I think you have seen clearly that I'm not in the slightest way distracted by it.

[MichaellS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

It's found at , , ,

next question?

Who's question are you answering?

This is the question I still need answered.

As to whomever you intended this for, it is still the same,

Your comment is void from the purpose of the thread.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MichaellS

[FONT=Arial Narrow][SIZE=4]Who's question are you answering?

.....

If at any point I teach something about the Genesis creation story that you doubt is supported by the Genesis text, just ask me, "Where does it say that?" and I will by happy to show you.

For I believe all that I teach on this or any other topic is fully supported by the bible.

[MichaellS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I teach on this or any other topic is fully supported by the bible.

My, how nice that sounds, to bad your "any" isn't what the Bible means when it says "any".

This is still the question that remains unanswered on this thread, thereby poisoning the purpose of "Biblical Scrutiny".

So, in review, all I got for my question is evasion. Surprise surprise, who would have guessed?

Gueeze! Surely, someone here recognizes a simple question when they see it?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MichaellS

[FONT=Arial Narrow][SIZE=4]My, how nice that sounds, to bad your "any" .....

Well I cant tell you what i meant....

Any topic that i have taught on in connection with our main topic of Genesis and what is written in Genesis I would be more than happy to go over again with anyone interested...

But Im not at all interested in other diversions*...

And that the trouble is it not?...for I have seen over and over the the YEC teachers/websites/ and books seem to want to go off on tangents rather that confronting what the Bible says.

Oh how the YEC teachers love to get the conversation dragged down into endless debates over evolution and over DNA and over things like micro-this and Macro-that...
But what you notice is that when a guy only wants to talk about what the bible says?...then all you get is pointless attacks and sidetracked.
I saw the same with Ken Ham in person.

If a guy wants to ask a question about what the Bible says was the "First thing listed that god created in the beginning?"...all you get is the answer, "Well that might be what the Bible says, but it means something else"...and then they always go off on a pointless tangent that has nothing to do with Genesis 1:1.
(An example:To ask questions that are not part of the Genesis text but are only based on their own personal views in an aim to side-track the discussion, ie,"Evolution is evil,why do you insult Christians by teaching evil?")

But Im only interested in reading what the Bible says...

Thats why i like to stick to only what is written about the creation in the Bible, and I dont allow myself to get dragged into endless debates over evolution.....

Nor do i allow myself to get dragged into arguments over personal matters best left off the open forum.

If a person whats to know some type of person question, best ask that in a "private message".

So sticking to the main point of our topic on Genesis, I shall now go on to talk about some things people might not have caught when they read the story.

The key to understanding why the earth is said to be in Darkness after the creation of the "heavens" (The sun and stars) we need to just look at *** 38 for our answer.

At *** 38 we see the bible talking about the same point in history that Genesis is dealing with.

At *** 38 we also see the reason why the Earth is said to be in "darkness"in Genesis...

The reason is given as thick clouds that god wrapped the early earth in.



Its that simple....

it was due to thick clouds.














* I totally ignore all smart-mouth junk that gets tossed my way that can only be a gateway to a lot of personal bickering and pointlessness.

Thus when a guy posts to me something like "Alan evolution is evil,why do you insult Christians and teach what is evil?" I just write that poster off as acting like a silly child and continue on without them as if they don't matter.

Because they dont matter, they are not part of my discussion.

I also dont give a darn if some poster whines that "Alan ignores my questions"if I also consider the guy's questions to be nothing but yet another silly sidetrack attempt.

Now about every night I get a lot of Personal Messages from people who drop by this website, see my posts,and want to know more about what Im saying.
I try to answer such questions as best I can,while always sticking close to the text we see before us in Genesis at all times.

I also think its funny,yet disappointingly common to see how some people are so frustrated at not being able to out-debate me on the topic of Genesis, they they write to the Forum MODs in an effort to get them to come to their rescue.

My advice to such people?.....read your Bible more, then maybe you wont feel so helpless all the time

[MichaellS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

“But Im only interested in reading what the Bible says”

“Because they dont matter, they are not part of my discussion.”

Maybe you should have thought about that before walking into a thread bearing the ***le of “Biblical scrutiny”

It’s time to shed childishness and take responsibility man, answer the question directly

A narrow mind might attempting to convince himself he is in the right by staying narrow may think he’s right, , but with the effort you give to shudder God’s word from us proves it is not!

“Now about every night I get a lot of Personal Messages from people who drop by this website, see my posts,and want to know more about what Im saying.”

Then they are right there with you ignoring the will of God brought to everyone from our wording.

The evasion continues.

What about the silence concerning God's will concerning this? Why do you continue to ignore them? Hello? It God's word, not man's as you like to think.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MichaellS

answer the question directly

.......

If anyone has a question about anything I have taught on the Genesis creation story, just ask and I will be happy to return to the issue and address it.


Now building on what I have been teaching on above...today I will talk about the 4th day,and the idea some in the YEC cult believe about it.

many YEC teachers will try to say that god did not make the stars until the 4th day.
This idea goes totally against what science teaches us about the creation of the universe.
The YEC teachings therefore run counter to modern science and this is why many of the best and brightest within the Christian church are being driven out due to the way some YEC teachers will attack such Christians as being "against the Bible" .

Well Im here to set the record straight!

The fact is, the Bible does not teach that God made the stars on the 4th day!

Yes, I know in your Bible it might "say" that, but what you will learn if you dig into this issue is that the idea that God also made the stars on the 4th day was added to the text and does not actually appear in the oldest Hebrew scriptures.>

To check on this, all you have to do is look at the text for the 4th day in a King James Version of the Bible.

The King James make use of little study helps that allow the student to see what words were added to the text...
Some king James will put words in brackets [] or will write the added words in italic

By checking in the King James you will clearly see that the words teaching that God also made the stars on the 4td Day was added.

This is just a cold hard fact....The Bible does not say that God also made the stars on the 4th day at all !

and.....when you remove the added words,the Bible's original sentence at that point reads so much more better.
The text is simply saying at that point that the "lessor light" will rule over the night and the stars also.


This fact cant be denied!