Question

[pilgrim1411]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Do theye believe in the resurrection of the Lord jesus Christ?

That he died for our sins, and because of his blood we are saved by Grace though faith?

Do they teach the trinity?

You have got to be kidding me. We are the ones who gave you those doctrines. Study the history of the Church. Study the writings of the Fathers, the canons, creeds and confessions. All of the orthodox (small "o") doctrines in your faith, are residuals from the Orthodox Church that your leaders carried into your own particular brand of "Christianity" from us.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by pilgrim1411

You have got to be kidding me......

Again, Im not at all interested in your views..

I was asking what the church in question believes and teaches?

[Columcille]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Again, Im not at all interested in your views..

I was asking what the church in question believes and teaches?

Since pilgrim is Orthodox, he is telling you what the Church believes and teaches. I wish he would quote more from his bishops, patriarches, and the councils of his Church to support it... but he is quite right that the "orthodox" beliefs that mainline Protestants and all of Christendom hold stem from the Orthodox Church... I should hope he would recognize it as the "Catholic" Church as is recited in the Nicene Creed and understands his history that even the Roman Popes were part of that history even long after much of the early era of the Church until 1054 when the tensions became too great. I can find agreement with him in the 7 Ecumenical Councils and much of the important regional council decisions.

What I perhaps get, that Pilgrim may or may seem to understand from your criticism, is that there are individuals in the communion who do not abide by the teachings of the Church. Just because someone claims to be Orthodox, does not mean he adhers completely to Orthodoxy. We call people like this in the Catholic Church to be "Cafeteria Catholics," because they pick and choose what they want to believe. However, I can understand from the catechesis which many seem to forget is that efficientcy in the sacraments is found in obedience to the Church's teachings. People who are participating in the Divine Liturgy and recieving the Eucharist while acting inconsistent with the doctrines and morals of Orthodoxy are eating and drinking the body and blood of the Lord unworthily as 1 Cor. 11.18-19.

For, to begin with, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you; and to some extent I believe it. Indeed, there have to be factions among you, for only so will it become clear who among you are genuine. (NRSV, 1 Cor. 11.18-19)

When the Protestants come together, most only do the Lord's supper once a month (changed from year). But the instructions given by St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 11.33 "So then, my brothers and sisters, when you come together to eat, wait for one another." The time frequentcy of the instruction from the beginning of this p***age in verse 17 with the detailed instruction of the use of the bread and wine and of self reflection and proclaiming the Lord's death until he comes... Protestants don't need self-reflection but once a month, very rarely do they do it every time they come together. At least in the Catholic Church and Orthodox Churches, self-reflection when coming together for M*** or Divine Liturgy is a daily event.


There alanmolstad, I corrected my mistakes. I made bold the point within the paragraph that would have reflected the whole. It was an inconsistency, the fact you only seemed to see "year" and stopped right there and not seen where I know have made bold should have been an indicator that the time was not in agreement. You know as well as I, that there is probably no church who does communion once a year. Reflecting on the bold type now, I would rather your criticism of the first sentence be conjointed with the later. I would have expected you to have read the whole paragraph and stated instead, "don't you mean "once a month?" I don't know your frame of mind in your criticism, but my perception is you didn't read the whole paragraph.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Columcille

When the Protestants come together, most only do the Lord's supper once a year. .

what church does it only once a year?.....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Columcille

When the Protestants come together, most only do the Lord's supper once a year.

I have to again ask what church only does the Lord's supper once a year?

[Columcille]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I have to again ask what church only does the Lord's supper once a year?

If you read the whole paragraph, you would notice that I stated the word month. That sentence was a misspeak. The point of my argument still stands. If all you want to do is point out grammar errors and mistakes in an attempt to discredit the valid points of an argument, then I don't see how you can be so confident in your own worldview.

[alanmolstad]

I cant read your mind Columcille...

You always had the ability to edit or come back later and make your point more clear....did you?

I cant read your mind and so when you posted "year" and that's was all there was to go on...I took you at your word.

I don't think this is a grammar mistake at all...nor a spelling mistake.

However it is an editing mistake.

Please try to look at it that way, and understand that unless you post what you mean, I will ***ume you mean what you post...

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Columcille

Protestants don't need self-reflection but once a month, .

As a person that leans to the more protestant point of view I don't understand where this "rule" about my only needing a once a month self-reflection is written down at?

"Self-reflection" seems to be a term used to talk about a very personal moment...

Are you talking about an organized time of self-reflection during a church service?

Is it your understanding that guys like me only have private moments of self-reflection when its a listed part of a church service, and comes before one thing on the list and after another?...LOL

[Columcille]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

As a person that leans to the more protestant point of view I don't understand where this "rule" about my only needing a once a month self-reflection is written down at?

"Self-reflection" seems to be a term used to talk about a very personal moment...

Are you talking about an organized time of self-reflection during a church service?

Is it your understanding that guys like me only have private moments of self-reflection when its a listed part of a church service, and comes before one thing on the list and after another?...LOL

The self reflection is tied to 1 Corinthians 11.27-29:
"Whomever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be answerable for the body and blood of the Lord. Examine yourselves, and only then eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For all who eat and drink without discerning the body, eat and drink judgment against themselves."

[alanmolstad]

Once again, the idea that in Protestant churches only hold a moment of self-reflection once a month is something I question.

It seems to me that even if the Protestant church service is not dealing that week with a holy meal, that there always is a point during the service for confession of sins and forgiveness.

I have yet to hear of a church weekly service that had zero opportunities to confess our sins?

[alanmolstad]

self reflection is a very private matter...

while a church may allow a time during the service to have people do self reflection, there is nothing the church can or should do to demand a person do this very private matter.

The idea that a church is the only place where such self reflection is promoted in the bible is a joke.

The best place in my mind for good self reflection is when you are totally and completely "ALONE!"

Then a person has a chance to hear that still, small voice.




Now as for this topic and my view of the eastern orthodox church?.....
My answer is that I dont know too much about that church denomination, however based only on the effects of being a member of that church on some of the posters here, I would suggest not attending for fear of turning into a mean person.

[Columcille]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

As a person that leans to the more protestant point of view I don't understand where this "rule" about my only needing a once a month self-reflection is written down at?

As far as I know, the practice of the Lord's table is practiced once a month by most Protestant churches to be something either practiced for such a long time that it is an unwritten rule. It is just common practice, perhaps seen in the same manner as two opposite sex couples who after living together for years with children and never been married are by some states considered common-law marriage or cohabitation as legal proof of marriage even without a ceremony or certificate. There might be a written rule in the by-laws or even within the perameters of how to conduct the service itself.

[Columcille]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Are you talking about an organized time of self-reflection during a church service?

Is it your understanding that guys like me only have private moments of self-reflection when its a listed part of a church service, and comes before one thing on the list and after another?...LOL

Based on 1 Cor. 11, which I stated earlier without much comment, as well as the practice as it was recieved and handed down, the Church has practiced the Eucharistist service almost daily when they got together. The Church is not based on individuals, but as a community. Hebrews tells us not to forsake the ***embly as some have done. Self-reflection is a private affair, but is connected to the community of believers through the Lord's Table. I'll comment later on the historicity of this practice by searching my logos bible software in the Ante-Nicene Fathers. I should think that people like Clement, who are mentioned directly by Paul in his epistles, and other disciples of the 12 apostles should be very reliable in terms of their continuing the instructions handed down to them.

They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer,44 because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death45 in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect,46 that they also might rise again. It is fitting, therefore, that ye should keep aloof from such persons, and not to speak of47 them either in private or in public, but to give heed to the prophets, and above all, to the Gospel, in which the p***ion [of Christ] has been revealed to us, and the resurrection has been fully proved.48 But avoid all divisions, as the beginning of evils.


Roberts, A., Donaldson, J., & Coxe, A. C. (1997). The Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol.I : Translations of the writings of the Fathers down to A.D. 325 (89) (Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrneans 1 Smy 7). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems.. Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems.

See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the ins***ution55 of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper56 Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the mul***ude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.57


(ibid. 1 Smy 8).

[Columcille]

5. Then, again, how can they say that the flesh, which is nourished with the body of the Lord and with His blood, goes to corruption, and does not partake of life? Let them, therefore, either alter their opinion, or cease from offering the things just mentioned.254 But our opinion is in accordance with the Eucharist, and the Eucharist in turn establishes our opinion. For we offer to Him His own, announcing consistently the fellowship and union of the flesh and Spirit.255 For as the bread, which is produced from the earth, when it receives the invocation of God, is no longer common bread,256 but the Eucharist, consisting of two realities, earthly and heavenly; so also our bodies, when they receive the Eucharist, are no longer corruptible, having the hope of the resurrection to eternity.

Roberts, A., Donaldson, J., & Coxe, A. C. (1997). The Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol.I : Translations of the writings of the Fathers down to A.D. 325 (486) (Ireneas, "Against Heresies 4.18.5). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems.

[alanmolstad]

self reflection is a private matter.

now a denomination can highlight the need for self-reflection by making sure it is made note of and practiced during a church service.

But being a very private affair it is really left to the person to do on their own....even if kneeling at a time set aside for it within a church service.

I believe it was Jesus who gave us the idea that a time of self-reflection is private.

jesus gave many examples of men praying to God and dealing with their own sins during this very private moment .

Can you do self-reflection in front of other people,,,can you do it during an organized church service?...oh yes.

But Jesus also taught of the need to get alone, to go into your room and lock the door, and there find the privacy too.

Is there anything wrong with a denomination highlighting the Christian concept for self-reflection by adding a special place for it during a worship hour?....NO!

I believe that Jesus also makes a strong case for taking a moment to have some self-reflection before you bring your gift to the Lord.

As most churches have a moment of offering during every service, this would be the reason that before every offering in each Protestant church I have attended that there is the moment of sefl-reflection listed in the church bulletin.


So to sum it all up:

Moments of self-reflection are common amoung members of the prodiatant church as well as other branches of the christian church.

Some churches make special notie of the need for self-reflection by including a set-aside moment for people to carry out that during the worship hour.

The time this is done may vary from church to church, and even then it might get moved around.But the fact that Jesus teaches about self-reflection before offering our gifts, (and every church has a moment to bring in the gifts), this leads us to the finding we see in so many Protestant churches of a private moment of reflection before the offering is made....


so .."Self-reflection" is a hallmark of the Protestant church

[Columcille]

Now all you got to do is tie it to 1 Corinthians 11. Because the self-reflection is specifically tied to the Lord's table in this p***age. As a community of believers, the importance of genuineness and of validity tied the Eucharist with a unified body as Ireneus, Ignatius, Justin Martyr, and other Ante-Nicene Fathers who knew the Apostles stated. What each Protestant Church does is insignificant if not tied to Scripture nor to the consistency of truth as it was entrusted from the Apostles on through the ages.