Originally Posted by Mesenja
If you want to debate practice of indulgences then this is better served in the Catholic forum. Simply restate your concerns and take out the Later-day Saint [Mormon] references. This having been said I think the following article will be of great help in at least giving those of us who are not Catholic like myself a basic primer on what indulgences are and what they are not.
I believe shoedog that this article en***led Myths about Indulgences will clear up a lot of the misconceptions you may have about the practice of indulgences. As a non-Catholic it has certainly helped me in this regard. Here is an excerpt from the article that deals with the concerns that you have just raised.
Myth 1:A person can buy his way out of hell with indulgences.
This charge is without foundation. Since indulgences remit only temporal penalties, they cannot remit the eternal penalty of hell. Once a person is in hell,no amount of indulgences will ever change that fact. The only way to avoid hell is by appealing to God’s eternal mercy while still alive. After death,one’s eternal fate is set (Hebrews 9:27).
Myth 2:A person can buy indulgences for sins not yet committed.
The Church has always taught that indulgences do not apply to sins not yet committed. The Catholic Encyclopedia notes,"[An indulgence] is not a permission to commit sin,nor a pardon of future sin;neither could be granted by any power."
Myth 3:A person can "buy forgiveness" with indulgences.
The definition of indulgences presupposes that forgiveness has already taken place:"An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven" (Indulgentarium Doctrina 1,emphasis added). Indulgences in no way forgive sins. They deal only with punishments left after sins have been forgiven.
Myth 4:Indulgences were invented as a means for the Church to raise money.
Indulgences developed from reflection on the sacrament of reconciliation. They are a way of shortening the penance of sacramental discipline and were in use centuries before money-related problems appeared.
Myth 5:An indulgence will shorten your time in purgatory by a fixed number of days.
The number of days which used to be attached to indulgences were references to the period of penance one might undergo during life on earth. The Catholic Church does not claim to know anything about how long or short purgatory is in general,much less in a specific person’s case.
Myth 6:A person can buy indulgences.
The Council of Trent ins***uted severe reforms in the practice of granting indulgences,and, because of prior abuses,"in 1567 Pope Pius V canceled all grants of indulgences involving any fees or other financial transactions" (Catholic Encyclopedia). This act proved the Church’s seriousness about removing abuses from indulgences.
Myth 7:A person used to be able to buy indulgences.
One never could "buy" indulgences. The financial scandal surrounding indulgences, the scandal that gave Martin Luther an excuse for his heterodoxy,involved alms—indulgences in which the giving of alms to some charitable fund or foundation was used as the occasion to grant the indulgence. There was no outright selling of indulgences.
The Catholic Encyclopedia states:"[i]t is easy to see how abuses crept in. Among the good works which might be encouraged by being made the condition of an indulgence,alms giving would naturally hold a conspicuous place. . . .It is well to observe that in these purposes there is nothing essentially evil. To give money to God or to the poor is a praiseworthy act,and, when it is done from right motives,it will surely not go unrewarded."
"Don’t indulgences duplicate or even negate the work of Christ?"
Despite the biblical underpinnings of indulgences,some are sharply critical of them and insist the doctrine supplants the work of Christ and turns us into our own saviors. This objection results from confusion about the nature of indulgences and about how Christ’s work is applied to us.
Indulgences apply only to temporal penalties,not to eternal ones. The Bible indicates that these penalties may remain after a sin has been forgiven and that God lessens these penalties as rewards to those who have pleased him. Since the Bible indicates this,Christ’s work cannot be said to have been supplanted by indulgences.
The merits of Christ, since they are infinite,comprise most of those in the treasury of merits. By applying these to believers,the Church acts as Christ’s servant in the application of what he has done for us,and we know from Scripture that Christ’s work is applied to us over time and not in one big lump (Phil. 2:12,1 Peter 1:9).
"Isn’t it better to put all of the emphasis on Christ alone?"
If we ignore the fact of indulgences,we neglect what Christ does through us,and we fail to recognize the value of what he has done in us. Paul used this very sort of language:"Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake,and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body,that is,the church" (Col. 1:24).
Even though Christ’s sufferings were super abundant (far more than needed to pay for anything),Paul spoke of completing what was "lacking" in Christ’s sufferings. If this mode of speech was permissible for Paul,it is permissible for us,even though the Catholic language about indulgences is far less shocking than was Paul’s language about his own role in salvation.
Catholics should not be defensive about indulgences. They are based on principles straight from the Bible,and we can be confident not only that indulgences exist, but that they are useful and worth obtaining.
Pope Paul VI declared, "[T]he Church invites all its children to think over and weigh up in their minds as well as they can how the use of indulgences benefits their lives and all Christian society.... Supported by these truths,holy Mother Church again recommends the practice of indulgences to the faithful. It has been very dear to Christian people for many centuries as well as in our own day. Experience proves this" (Indulgentarium Doctrina,9,11).
Thanks for the interesting information. I don't know that much about Catholicism opr indulgences. I'm not interested in debating Catholic indulgences but would like to learn more. I was comparing the similarity i my mind to LDS baptisms. Seems like Catholics downplay what has been known about indulgences. My point is neither the LDS Mormons and their works of baptizing for the dead and the works or payments by Catholics, real or imagined, Luther correct or not, has no vaue in helping someone already dead. It may make victims and pious feel better.
You can move it if you want. Not my call.