This just in...

[alanmolstad]

According to science, the start of the universe was the Big Bang.
All that we see around us in our universe had this one single starting point.
Every star , every dead world like our moon, every earth-like planet we might see in the future, is made from stuff that came forth from the Big Bang.

In the Bible this very same moment is talked about at Genesis 1:1 " In the beginning God created the Heavens and the earth."
The word "Heavens" has several meanings in the Bible and in different contexts, but of these many understandings of the word is the idea for the "Full canopy of the night sky" .........in other words all the stars and galaxies of the universe.

So like what we find in science, the Bible also has the creation of the "heavens" as being the very first thing listed that God has made.



But what about life?
Is there agreement about where all life is from in both Science and in Genesis?......yes there is!


Now according to Science all the life we see on the earth is just the natural result of change on the earth.
That life is just the earth itself ....that Life is part of the Earth.
In other words....animals and humans are just a part of the earth that has come to life....

Is this all that different than what the Bible teaches in Genesis?.......Nope!

"And God said, Let the earth bring forth gr***"
"And the earth brought forth gr***"

"And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature"
"And God made the beast of the earth"

"And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree"
"And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air"

So what we see in the Genesis story is the clear fact that God made all life out of this very earth itself.
Life, be it the life found in the plant world, or the life found in the animal kingdom, is all from this very same single source....and that source is the very ground of the earth itself!


So there is complete agreement about the source of life in both Evolution and in Genesis!






But what about humans?
Are we also from the same source?




yes we are!!!!!!!!!

[disciple]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

First you must agree that the single place where both evolution and genesis trace back all life to, (man and animal) is held in common correct?

this is found in the verse I listed if you want to checkout all that im saying for yourself...

Hi Alan,
I see the point you are making but I see no agreement between evolution and creation. Evolution employs, death, mutation, chance and discounts irreducible complexity. Complex systems do not evolve bit by bit, for example a baby needs a number of very complex, interdependent systems to live and survive. These systems include the nervous, digestive, excretory, circulatory, skeletal, muscular and an immune system. For the baby to survive and live each system requires all the other systems to be functioning. Therefore all these systems must be in operation at the same time and could not have evolved slowly over millions of years. Think of the amazing intricacy of the male reproductive system coming about by time, chance and random mutation. It would need to be fully functional all along the evolutionary timeline so that reproduction could continue. And remember this highly unlikely progression would be pointless unless the female reproductive system had randomly evolved in perfect sync to compliment the developing male system so they both worked in harmony over the millions of years of evolutionary refinement! Of course, this logic applies to all the other species on earth as well.
There is no evidence anywhere of the evolution of such systems. More than that, not even any hypothetical process can be thought of to explain how something like the brain and the digestive system could have evolved bit by bit over time. Evolution is a theory introduced by man. I don’t think that Gen. 3:19 has anything to do with evolution and if you will look at Gen. 2:18-22 you will see that Eve did not evolve from an ape.

“And the Lord God said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.” Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name. So Adam gave names to all cattle, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him. And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. Then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.”

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by disciple

Hi Alan,
I see the point you are making but I see no agreement between evolution and creation. Evolution employs, death, mutation, chance and discounts irreducible complexity. Complex systems do not evolve bit by bit, for example a baby needs a number of very complex, interdependent systems to live and survive. These systems include the nervous, digestive, excretory, circulatory, skeletal, muscular and an immune system. For the baby to survive and live each system requires all the other systems to be functioning. Therefore all these systems must be in operation at the same time and could not have evolved slowly over millions of years. Think of the amazing intricacy of the male reproductive system coming about by time, chance and random mutation. It would need to be fully functional all along the evolutionary timeline so that reproduction could continue. And remember this highly unlikely progression would be pointless unless the female reproductive system had randomly evolved in perfect sync to compliment the developing male system so they both worked in harmony over the millions of years of evolutionary refinement! Of course, this logic applies to all the other species on earth as well.
There is no evidence anywhere of the evolution of such systems. More than that, not even any hypothetical process can be thought of to explain how something like the brain and the digestive system could have evolved bit by bit over time. Evolution is a theory introduced by man. I don’t think that Gen. 3:19 has anything to do with evolution and if you will look at Gen. 2:18-22 you will see that Eve did not evolve from an ape.

“And the Lord God said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.” Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name. So Adam gave names to all cattle, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him. And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. Then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.”

I dont teach evolution...I dont have any teachings on if the concept of evolution is true as now taught or if it needs to be changed in the future.

However what I am is a bible believer that has noticed that according to the current teachings of evolution we dont find any disagreements with it in the Genesis text!




So telling me how the odds are against evolution is a bit silly from my point of view...LOL

I believe that evolution is a tool of the "Maker's hand"
Thus evolution reflects the the workmanship of the "Maker"

Telling me the odds are against evolution only shows me why I believe evolution is a tool of the "Maker"
For the Maker is that good.....He is not stumped by your "odds".....

[alanmolstad]

but what I try to point out to people is that the Bible tells us that life on the earth is from the earth itself...that all life, both animal and human, is from this earth.
We are a part of the earth that has come to life....


"Made in" the image of God to be sure, but still always "made from" this very earth itself.....

[alanmolstad]

as for the "Eve issue"?........there is no difference!

The Bible tells us that Eve came forth from Adam, and so where did Adam come from?......the GROUND of the earth!!!!!!!
So both Adam and Eve come from the same single source!.........the ground.

This is why when we die we are said to "RETURN" to the ground....return to the dust of the EARTH!!!!!!!

Therefore no difference!!!!!!

[alanmolstad]

Do you have any other questions or things I have said that you wish me to address in a more complete form?
I would be very happy to do so, as it's so nice to be able to have a conversation that is NOT ABOUT THE MORMONS!....


Do you have any Bible verses that you would like me to take a look at?
Im not a Bible expert by any means, but I have read a verse or two in my life and so I can give any Bible verses you have in mind a little look-see..


Is there a Genesis verse that you want to see how it could be able to be in agreement with science and evolution?
I know that lots of Christians are students of the bible, and so I really would like to hear whats on your mind as it concerns this topic and what it means if what Im saying is starting to ring true to you...

[disciple]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Do you have any other questions or things I have said that you wish me to address in a more complete form?
I would be very happy to do so, as it's so nice to be able to have a conversation that is NOT ABOUT THE MORMONS!....


Do you have any Bible verses that you would like me to take a look at?
Im not a Bible expert by any means, but I have read a verse or two in my life and so I can give any Bible verses you have in mind a little look-see..


Is there a Genesis verse that you want to see how it could be able to be in agreement with science and evolution?
I know that lots of Christians are students of the bible, and so I really would like to hear whats on your mind as it concerns this topic and what it means if what Im saying is starting to ring true to you...

Hello again Alan,

So what you are saying is God created all the elements and then created everything else from those elements. That's not evolution.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by disciple

Hello again Alan,

So what you are saying is God created all the elements and then created everything else from those elements. That's not evolution.

Im saying that in GENESIS you find a story that works well with Evolution.

Im saying that the Bible tells us that we humans share a common point of origin with the animals (such as the great apes).

[alanmolstad]

Im saying that we are make "in" the image of God.

yet at the same time we are made "from" the same stuff as all the animals .




Im saying that according to the Genesis text, we share a place of origin with all the animals.

[alanmolstad]

Im saying that you can be both a very strong Bible believer, and a Scientist who believes evolution is true.

[alanmolstad]

Im saying that you can hold to a Genesis story that teaches us about the creation week of 7 days, and a scientist that understands that the universe is Billions and Billions of years old.

[alanmolstad]

Im also saying something else....



Im saying that Young Earth Creationism (YEC) is a lie.

Im saying that YEC is the result of "men's thinking" and stands against the written Word of God.

Im saying that evolution is a tool of God's hands...and as such should be just as respected as sunshine, as the wind that ****s the tree, and as rain that falls to the earth.
They all reflect the "Maker's hand"

[alanmolstad]

Once again, if the person reading my comments has a verse that they think stands against what I'm saying?...then lets have a look at it!

List it!

Show me where the Bible in Genesis is teaching something that is an argument against evolution.



so....got a verse?

[disciple]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Im saying that you can be both a very strong Bible believer, and a Scientist who believes evolution is true.

Hello Alan,
Here is the definition of human evolution,
"Human evolution is the lengthy process of change by which people originated from apelike ancestors. Scientific evidence shows that the physical and behavioral traits shared by all people originated from apelike ancestors and evolved over a period of approximately six million years."
Again the bible tells us there was no death before sin entered the world, how many apes, half apes, quarter apes etc. would have died in 6 million years before man became man and sinned?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by disciple

Hello Alan,
Here is the definition of human evolution,
"Human evolution is the lengthy process of change by which people originated from apelike ancestors. Scientific evidence shows that the physical and behavioral traits shared by all people originated from apelike ancestors and evolved over a period of approximately six million years."
Again the bible tells us there was no death before sin entered the world, how many apes, half apes, quarter apes etc. would have died in 6 million years before man became man and sinned?

Again , I dont teach evolution....

But I just point out that at no place in the whole Bible does it blame the death of animals onto the sins of men....(except for when we are talking about the sheep killed on the alter)





So there is not a single verse in the Bible that teaches that animals could not have lived and died for billions and billions of years before the rise of man on the earth....

[alanmolstad]

the "death" talked about in connection to Adam's sin is ALWAYS dealing only with human death.....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by disciple

Hello Alan,
Here is the definition of human evolution,
"Human evolution is the lengthy process of change by which people originated from apelike ancestors

and what (according to evolution)came before the apelike ancestors?

and before that?

and before that?

Trace it back.....back...back though the uncounted years of time that has p***ed.
Trace it all the way back to the very start...what were the very first building blocks that went on to form life?

guess where you end up?.......You end up at Genesis 1:11..."let the EARTH bring forth...."




God commands what to bring forth life?........"The EARTH!"










There simply is no disagree here in Genesis with the teachings of evolution at all !



The Bible does use more spiritual wordings, and the bible tells us the "who" that was behind the "what"......
but the fact is that what we read in Genesis fits nicely with what science and evolution are also finding out about early earth history.

[alanmolstad]

where is man from?

Where was he created as taught in Genesis?
What was the location?

[disciple]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

the "death" talked about in connection to Adam's sin is ALWAYS dealing only with human death.....

Keep in mind there are primarily two views of history (secular and Christian) with two different authorities, man’s fallible reason(of which science is a part) and a perfect God. According to the Bible, a perfect God created a perfect creation, and because of man’s sin, death and suffering came into the world.
Romans 8:19-22 "For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now." God said His creation was very good, Romans 8 tells us that because of man's sin the rest of creation was unwillingly subjected to corruption.

[alanmolstad]

allthat stuff about "creation" is just talking about us humans.

When the Bible tells us that a great leader will arise and says, "The whole world will go after him" it does not mean all the animals...LOL

It does not mean all the worms and the bees and the deer in the woods and the trees too!...LOL

The Bible many times will talk about the creation, and the world and etc, and this is just its way of talking about the people...

[alanmolstad]

so that is why when you read the verse at Romans 8 you have to keep in its correct context as already given at Romans 5:12 that tells us that death came to "all men"


So the sin of Adam leads to the death of Adam's children.......and thats it.

[alanmolstad]

now someone might say that "all death" was due to the sin of Adam. and they understand this "all" to be talking about the death of animals too.

This is error.....

Its very easy to show this is all error when you consider that Eve is said to be the mother of "all the living" ......well sheep are living, deer are living, worms are alive, is Eve their mother too?


No!....Eve is the mother of all the living, as in all the people that are her children.
Not the deer, not the sheep, and not the trees or the birds etc...

So the word "all" does not become an automatic blanket for everything you can think of.
the word "all" only can be understood in its very limited context.






Got another verse?

[alanmolstad]

"The order is wrong"

That is what many YEC teachers try to tell us.
They say that the order of things in Genesis is different than how evolution teaches things came in.

The problem with this argument is that they are ***uming things about the story of Genesis that you cant ***ume at all !

Let me give an example of what I mean by this.

lets say that of DAY X something happens on the land that according to evolution should have happened far earlier or later in history.
The problem here is that just because the Bible tells us something is happening on the land on Day X is does not mean other things could not also be happening!

The Bible tells us only that of Day X something changed.....but this does not mean nothing else could not be happening too.


say on Day X the bible tells us that something changed on the "land", does this fact alone mean all things in the "sea" and in the "sky" stood still?....no!

The fact is this: when we read the Bible tell us about something that changed on the land on Day X it is simply that.....its telling us that something changed on the land.

It does not rule-out lots, and lots, or other things that might also be changing or have changed beforehand...
The Bible is just pointing out that on Day X this thing___changed.

its not to be understood for one moment as the "only" change......its just the "only"one listed in the text is all....

[disciple]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

allthat stuff about "creation" is just talking about us humans.

The Bible many times will talk about the creation, and the world and etc, and this is just its way of talking about the people...

Not so in this case, it says the creation was "unwillingly subjected" to futility and corruption. Humans sin willingly.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

now someone might say that "all death" was due to the sin of Adam. and they understand this "all" to be talking about the death of animals too.

This is error.....

Its very easy to show this is all error when you consider that Eve is said to be the mother of "all the living" ......well sheep are living, deer are living, worms are alive, is Eve their mother too?


No!....Eve is the mother of all the living, as in all the people that are her children.
Not the deer, not the sheep, and not the trees or the birds etc...

So the word "all" does not become an automatic blanket for everything you can think of.
the word "all" only can be understood in its very limited context.






Got another verse?

Alan people who read the Bible don't need that explanation, we know that Eve is not the mother of animals. Genesis 1:24 says,"And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.