The future of Anglicanism

[Columcille]

Since I was a former Anglican, I thought I would at least post something close to my heart. Firstly, if anyone has new information about the ECUSA or other Anglican communions that are engaged with the current crisis, I hope that you can share that.

Where do you think will happen to the ECUSA? Will they recant? Will they be seperated from the Anglican Church? Will it happen prior to the next Lambeth Conference? What of the archbishop of Canterbury? Anything relevant to consider?

[Leslie]

The Episcopalian Church needs to repent. They are in serious danger of falling into heresy by allowing ****sexual priests and teaching evolution and some even teach universalism. People like "Bishop" John Shelby Spong are taking the church to hell in a handbaskit. They are making people into a two fold child of hell with their false doctrines.

That is why I urge all conservative Anglicans and Episcopalians to stand up for Biblical Christianity and denounce the apostasy that is plaguing their church.

And get rid of their current leader, she's a heretic.

[Columcille]

Originally Posted by Leslie

The Episcopalian Church needs to repent. They are in serious danger of falling into heresy by allowing ****sexual priests and teaching evolution and some even teach universalism. People like "Bishop" John Shelby Spong are taking the church to hell in a handbaskit. They are making people into a two fold child of hell with their false doctrines.

That is why I urge all conservative Anglicans and Episcopalians to stand up for Biblical Christianity and denounce the apostasy that is plaguing their church.

And get rid of their current leader, she's a heretic.

Bishop Rowan Williams seems to be the current leader over it all, yet he does nothing. To me, it seems that the Anglicans in Africa have ability to do put more pressure on the Archbishop of Canterbury. As long as Rowhan is in office, it seems he supports the ECUSA's actions. The fact that he never addressed the current crisis in the recent Lambeth conference demonstrates that heresy is much higher than just with the ECUSA.

[Leslie]

Originally Posted by Columcille

Bishop Rowan Williams seems to be the current leader over it all, yet he does nothing. To me, it seems that the Anglicans in Africa have ability to do put more pressure on the Archbishop of Canterbury. As long as Rowhan is in office, it seems he supports the ECUSA's actions. The fact that he never addressed the current crisis in the recent Lambeth conference demonstrates that heresy is much higher than just with the ECUSA.

Indeed, the Archbishop of Canterbury isn't doing his ***. He and the lady leader of the Episcopalian Church are disgracing the name Bishop.

[Columcille]

Originally Posted by Leslie

Indeed, the Archbishop of Canterbury isn't doing his ***. He and the lady leader of the Episcopalian Church are disgracing the name Bishop.

Locally, I know a good Episcopalion minister who is conservative. Such a rare thing. I asked him how it is possible. As you may know, donations to the national church due to the crisis is optional. But what of the diocese you are under that voted against the moratorium against electing more ****sexual bishops in 2006? The Nashville diocese was split during this vote. So apparently money that goes to that diocese is seperated. Conservative parish's money are seperated from the liberal ones. So the monies will either fall under the Windsor report of 2004 or not. But can it really be respected and even expected that more money could be contributed by the liberal funded parishes to the diocese will go more to their liberal cause rather than supporting the bare bones administrative and mission needs? Would not the conservative funds be used more to support the good aspects thereby giving more freedom to the liberal fund to donate more to their progressive liberal agenda? It is like giving money to alcoholics with the instruction they should only use that money to buy food, so they use that money to buy food... but the money they could have used without the charity towards food is now allocated to support their alcoholic binging. I am not even sure I would want to be a part of the ECUSA as a conservative priest if the diocese is liberal or is divided. There are many other Anglican parishes in America that are gaining their connection to the Anglican communion in Nigeria... who has representative connection in Canterbury. I think jumping ship (ECUSA) is the morally correct thing to do. I became Catholic, but I think if I didn't become Catholic, the Anglican communions that have ties to the Convocation of Anglican Nigerian Churches in America are in a much better shape.

[Leslie]

If I were a Conservative Anglican or Episcopalian priest, I'de march straight into the office of the head of the Church and demand that they return to the righteous path. They'de think John the Baptist or Elijah hit town. Then again, I'm a pentecostal so I'm kinda bold sometimes....

I am seriously considering wearing the minister's collar when I recieve my minister's license though. I just like the more traditional look I guess.


btw, Catholicism in America is getting to be almost as liberal I think. The Catechism even says that the muslims worship the same God as the Christians....and Pope John Paul II said some things that borderline on universalism.

[sayso]

"Where do you think will happen to the ECUSA? Will they recant? Will they be seperated from the Anglican Church? Will it happen prior to the next Lambeth Conference? What of the archbishop of Canterbury? Anything relevant to consider?"

I am only familiar with this church through hearing, but it seems to me that perhaps all (denominations) are experiencing a falling away. Even Paul was concerned about this type of stuff happening in his day.

Acts 20

28 "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

29 "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;

30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.

I can't prove it but I'd say that these types of people are in every denomination and eventually it has to cause division because "light has no fellowship with darkness".

[Columcille]

Originally Posted by sayso

"Where do you think will happen to the ECUSA? Will they recant? Will they be seperated from the Anglican Church? Will it happen prior to the next Lambeth Conference? What of the archbishop of Canterbury? Anything relevant to consider?"

I am only familiar with this church through hearing, but it seems to me that perhaps all (denominations) are experiencing a falling away. Even Paul was concerned about this type of stuff happening in his day.

Acts 20

28 "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

29 "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;

30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.

I can't prove it but I'd say that these types of people are in every denomination and eventually it has to cause division because "light has no fellowship with darkness".

There is something uniquely different from other denominations... something of which Catholics should be following with prayer and even extending moral support to the Anglican communities affected. Anglicanism is the only Protestant denomination of any considerable worth that believes in apostolic succession. Now in 1534, King Henry split from the Catholic Church and subsequently the Catholic claims it no longer carries a legitimate apostolic succession. But does not the Orthodox Church also claim the same thing after 1054? That the Catholic Church in their view only carries with it a physical succession and that only the Orthodox are legitimate? And for the very similiar reasons that the Pope is greatest among equals and doctrinal decisions are to be left for ecumenical councils and not by one pope or patriarch. This is seen by the inclusion of the filique clause not in the original Nicene Creed. Hence, such an addition trumps the original council and their authority. I partly agree with their ***essment, the Nicene Creed was made at that council and any additions to it did not happen at that time and place for its inclusion to be originated at that ecumenical council. Is the doctrine correct, yes; but that is not the point. It should be of similiar interest to the Catholics to follow the current crisis in the Anglican communion because we have so many laity who are out of sync with Catholic beliefs on the immorality of abortion and ****sexuality. They are attempting to change locally in the Catholic educational ins***utions to teach their liberal ideals. There are on the internet special interest groups that claim to be Catholic and promote female ordination, ****sexuality, prochoice, and a list of other things contrary to Catholic doctrine and morals. Our concern as Catholics, because we will not split from ourselves, is to clean up, quarrantine, and dismiss this cancerous infection. The same thing that happened to the Ecclesia Anglicana under King Henry can happen in America and Canada in a different form similar to what is going on with the ECUSA, if we don't address the liberal and cafeteria Catholics in both the laity and in the educational ins***utions our priests attend and may carry away and teach liberalism on the pulpit or fail to teach or emphasis correct Catholicism on the pulpit then the crisis is going to spill over and affect us as well.

[sayso]

Originally Posted by Columcille

There is something uniquely different from other denominations... something of which Catholics should be following with prayer and even extending moral support to the Anglican communities affected. Anglicanism is the only Protestant denomination of any considerable worth that believes in apostolic succession.

I'm not sure if I am understanding what you mean. Are you saying that because Catholics and Anglicanism have this one thing (apostolic succession) in common that they would be less likely to have those within their church who teach false doctrine or to speak perverse things?

Paul even included himself in the possibility of preaching or teaching a false gospel.


Galatians 1

8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!


As far as prayer is concerned every Christian should be praying for each other.

I have heard some say that Catholics believe that all protestants need to return to The Catholic Church which is the Only true church? My husband was raised Catholic and nearly all of his family is Catholic but I never heard this from them. Is that what you believe?

[Columcille]

Originally Posted by sayso

I'm not sure if I am understanding what you mean. Are you saying that because Catholics and Anglicanism have this one thing (apostolic succession) in common that they would be less likely to have those within their church who teach false doctrine or to speak perverse things?

The structure of the Church is such that Christ gave to the apostles the keys to the kingdom. He left us a Church that was overseen by the apostles and entrusted to them. There are numerous more p***ages than the ones listed below that show the role of the apostle in building up churches. I can also show this even more by the disciples of the apostles and found in the Early Church Father writings.

Ephesians 2.20 'built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the capstone."

Hebrews 3.1 "Therefore, holy "brothers," sharing in a heavenly calling, reflect on Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession,"

Acts 2.42 "They devoted themselves to the teaching of the apostles and to the communal life, to the breaking of the bread and to the prayers."


I lay this down to answer your question... that is that by and large, apostolic succession exists. And it is a lesson to Catholics to watch the Anglicans so as to prevent schisms in America and Canada. The Catholic Church's official teachings will not change, even if liberalism ***aults it.

[sayso]

The Catholic Church's official teachings will not change, even if liberalism ***aults it.

Ok, I see what you're getting at. But honestly the teachings of the Catholic church have changed over time, have they not?

Many traditionalist Catholics[who?] hold that the Second Vatican Council, or subsequent interpretations of its documents, moved the Church away from important principles of the historic Catholic faith. These principles include the following:

* the belief that the Catholic Church is the one and only true Christian church founded by Jesus Christ;
* the belief that the modern idea of religious liberty is to be condemned;
* an appropriate emphasis on the "Four Last Things" (Death, Judgment, Heaven, and Hell);
* the belief that the books of the Bible are historically inerrant;
* a devotion to scholastic theology and
* an organically grown apostolic Roman liturgy, as they define the Tridentine M***.

They claim that these progressivist changes were made possible because of the ambiguity present in the official texts of the Council.

In contradiction to many Catholics' claims that it marked the beginning of a "new springtime" for the Church, critics[who?] see the Council as a major cause of the tremendous decline in vocations, the erosion of Catholic belief, and the loss of influence of the Church in the Western world. They further argue that it changed the focus of the Church from seeking the salvation of souls to improving mankind's earthly situation (cf. Liberation theology).

I lay this down to answer your question... that is that by and large, apostolic succession exists.

My understanding is that succession exists within the Catholic Church and apparently within the Anglican church because it has been p***ed down through tradition according to those churches. According to scripture, a calling from God and wisdom from God can not be p***ed down by succession.

Main Entry: suc-ces-sion
Pronunciation: \sək-ˈse-shən\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French or Latin; Anglo-French, from Latin succession-, successio, from succedere
Date: 14th century

1 a: the order in which or the conditions under which one person after another succeeds to a property, dignity, ***le, or throne b: the right of a person or line to succeed c: the line having such a right

IMO what this means is that succession is rendered invalid as it can not guarantee the person the born again status or the knowledge of the Truth/Jesus. This is not a right that is p***ed down but a gift and calling of God. It is individuals whom God rebirths, and forms into the Ecclessia, or in scriptural terms, makes individuals one in Jesus. It is God who calls and appoints the leadership of the church (1Cor.12:28) so how can it be p***ed down?

[Columcille]

I take it you are not yourself Anglican nor Catholic/Orthodox. To try and stay on target, I make the appeal for Catholics to pay attention to the crisis in the Anglican communion for the very same reasons that lead the Anglicans to first leave us. To me, what is going on within the ECUSA is a contemporary one that has similarities to the past schisms of 1054 and when the Anglicans left in 1534 by force of the king. The current ECUSA crisis is quite different and has its own unique problems, but where it is leading to is just the same old thing.

Your cut and paste is from wikipedia and the section has been challenged questioning its neutrality. That is why you see in brackets the question "who?". What prodominate Catholics are espousing such a criticism? Certainly the laity doesn't operate the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith, but Pope Benedict did prior to becoming Pope. The succession for the Anglican, Catholics, and Orthodox is by the laying on of hands from bishop to bishop all the way back to the apostles who were themselves commissioned by Christ. Your understanding of succession seems to gather its understanding from a secular process. Christ's kingdom is not the same as Ceasar's kingdom. Christ tells us in Luke 22.24-27. But what of the bad popes? Did any of them teach that adultery is ok, even though they commited adultery themselves? Did any pope teach that the Trinity is false? The doctrine and morals of the magesterium remain intact by the Holy Spirit. It was Christ's quarrentee in establishing his church that the gates of hell could not overcome.

[tealblue]

I read a real old book by Karl Adams called the spirit of Catholocism and even back in 1930 when he wrote it there was talk of the down fall of the anglican church.

[TimLScheffer]

You guys make this way too complicated...

The bottem line... the point of debarkation of all cults and apostates..

is to put in place an Authority that trumps scripture.

For the Mormons that authority is the Book of Mormon

for Islam that Authority is the Koran

For Catholicism that authority is Traditon

Whenever the Word of God is trumped by some other Authority... Gods Word gets replaced by man controlled arbitraitor...

This is how you come to ordain someone who practices beastiality... You make a decision on your own authority...that the part of Gods Word that condems this practice is not valid....

[Columcille]

When I went to a Lutheran Church in Tacoma, WA, the ***ociate pastor was charged with a serious offense that was sexual in nature. When I went to an ***embly of God type non-denominational church in Tacoma, WA, there was a husband and wife ministers in which the wife minister had inappropriate relations with a deacon. So long as there are pastors, ministers, and what have you... every single one of them is still a human being that faces temptations and trials. Sometimes with bad results, in quite a lot more the results are great.

However, what concerns us here is the future of Anglicanism. It is one thing for Christian leaders to fall in the face of temptation, it is an even worse thing when they vote that ****sexual acts is approved by God, when it reality it was only approved by the spiritually dead by their ecclesiastical clergy or laypeople. God didn't change his opinion on ****sexuality, its is the congregation and clergy that seek to uplift tolerance and love at the cost of genuine discipleship.

[archaeologist]

it seems that the anglican church does not care about the truth nor of God's guidelines for who can be a minister/preacher/pastor/priest/bishop as they are working on installing a second ****sexual in a position the person is disqualified from acheiving.

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/58150

when you go against God's word, you are in sin and opening the door for further corruption plus you are sending a message to the unbelievers that they do not have to obey God's word either.

there can be NO defense of the episcopalian church for their overt disobedience and they must be chastised for their actions and put from the congregation of true believers until they repent and remove their sinful appointments.

[alanmolstad]

The truth is....the Anglican church is getting sicker and sicker.

and it is headed for the grave.

I look at the current leadership, and all I see is people that are all set to add even more sickness to the church that is already on it's death bed.

[Columcille]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

The truth is....the Anglican church is getting sicker and sicker.

and it is headed for the grave.

I look at the current leadership, and all I see is people that are all set to add even more sickness to the church that is already on it's death bed.

I went to an Anglican parish recently, only on a minor visit to see how they were doing. It was a mess. The membership dwindled to like about 10 people. Quite sad. The Anglicans are doing the best they can, but the ECUSA is looming overhead, despite that they are conservatives that stand against up against them. The leadership is grave, there is no authority to speak against the moral heresies because the Archbishop of Canterbury cannot even speak authoritatively for his own region against ****sexuality. While he says he cannot speak for the whole communion, he cannot even speak to the members in Canterbury against it. It is a cop out, because Rowan supports the liberal agenda and dares not speak on the little authority he has because most of the Anglican communion in Africa and elsewhere do not agree with the ECUSA's arrogance.

[alanmolstad]

yes...very true

[alanmolstad]

I had moved on from this to join the Lutheran church,,,but as any Lutheran can inform you, the same **** has happend now there too....