Christian-Muslim Relations. CCC 841;LG 16; NA3

[Leslie]

Originally Posted by Columcille

There are many heresys in all ages, perhaps you can find a quote for me. I am sure Islam's spread must have elicited some comments from the popes. Perhaps you can demonstrate. As is, all I can find suggests a consistency. What you are saying I am saying is, however, is false. If Christ is not present in the person's life, meaning he has never encountered Christ meaningfully, then he falls under the stipulations of the p***ages I have quoted. Muslims that are brought up believing Jesus is not God in the flesh have not encountered the Gospel meaningfully. They have a some error in their religious beliefs mixed in with some very truthful elements. But do not mistake the terms pagan with Islam, Islam is not paganism. It is not nature worship. They believe in one God just the same as Judaism. If Christ judges a person to be righteous at the end of the age, it is his perogative. As such, I think the p***ages I have given demonstrate a general application of that judgement.

I thought a pagan was a person who worships a false god, which is what Allah is?

Islam isn't a heresy, it's a false religion that teaches that our Lord and Savior is nothing more than a mere prophet. It denies most of what we hold to be Sacred, and is purely a works-based system of beliefs. Christ will not judge them to be righteous because they have rejected him as their Lord and Creator.

The fact Catholicism is teaching this now is proof that it's becoming more and more liberal. Catholicism used to out right condemn Protestants and said we were going to burn in hell, one can only imagine what they had to say about the Muslims.

You've yet to prove that Allah is the same God we or even the Jews worship. The only thing in common they have is that it's one God and they claim it's Abraham's God.

[Columcille]

Originally Posted by Leslie

I thought a pagan was a person who worships a false god, which is what Allah is?

Islam isn't a heresy, it's a false religion that teaches that our Lord and Savior is nothing more than a mere prophet. It denies most of what we hold to be Sacred, and is purely a works-based system of beliefs. Christ will not judge them to be righteous because they have rejected him as their Lord and Creator.

The fact Catholicism is teaching this now is proof that it's becoming more and more liberal. Catholicism used to out right condemn Protestants and said we were going to burn in hell, one can only imagine what they had to say about the Muslims.

You've yet to prove that Allah is the same God we or even the Jews worship. The only thing in common they have is that it's one God and they claim it's Abraham's God.

It is one thing to blame the founders of new religions, who have the scriptures and use them in inappropriate ways to support their new doctrines or old gnostic/heresy doctrines with borrowed terminology. It is another thing to be brought up and raised in those religions that do not have the scriptures. Obviously, the Islamic prophet is rejected by Christianity for he obviously knew of the scriptural position of the Catholic/Orthodox Churches for him to adapt new ideas on the person of Christ and even retaining respect for the Virgin Mary. We can catagorically place Islam within the monotheistic religions, but would have to reject it more than Judaism since it does not respect the Scriptural base. However, to those that have not received a meaningful encounter with Jesus and his Gospel... including a lot of muslims due to the secular authorities laws to prevent Christian evangelism... those individuals have to base their knowledge of God from nature and in those p***ages of the Koran that are borrowed or adapted from the O.T.. You haven't really presented Islam here in what we have in common. In many respects, finding the commonality is the door for evangelism. If you fail to be a peacemaker, if you fail to be slow to speak and quick to listen as James instructs, you are going to be an ineffective presenter to the muslim in a meaningful engagement with the Gospel of our Lord.

You are in effect throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

[Leslie]

Originally Posted by Columcille

It is one thing to blame the founders of new religions, who have the scriptures and use them in inappropriate ways to support their new doctrines or old gnostic/heresy doctrines with borrowed terminology. It is another thing to be brought up and raised in those religions that do not have the scriptures. Obviously, the Islamic prophet is rejected by Christianity for he obviously knew of the scriptural position of the Catholic/Orthodox Churches for him to adapt new ideas on the person of Christ and even retaining respect for the Virgin Mary. We can catagorically place Islam within the monotheistic religions, but would have to reject it more than Judaism since it does not respect the Scriptural base. However, to those that have not received a meaningful encounter with Jesus and his Gospel... including a lot of muslims due to the secular authorities laws to prevent Christian evangelism... those individuals have to base their knowledge of God from nature and in those p***ages of the Koran that are borrowed or adapted from the O.T.. You haven't really presented Islam here in what we have in common. In many respects, finding the commonality is the door for evangelism. If you fail to be a peacemaker, if you fail to be slow to speak and quick to listen as James instructs, you are going to be an ineffective presenter to the muslim in a meaningful engagement with the Gospel of our Lord.

You are in effect throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

So by telling people that Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven, I am not doing the right thing?

[sayso]

Originally Posted by Columcille

It is one thing to blame the founders of new religions, who have the scriptures and use them in inappropriate ways to support their new doctrines or old gnostic/heresy doctrines with borrowed terminology. It is another thing to be brought up and raised in those religions that do not have the scriptures. Obviously, the Islamic prophet is rejected by Christianity for he obviously knew of the scriptural position of the Catholic/Orthodox Churches for him to adapt new ideas on the person of Christ and even retaining respect for the Virgin Mary. We can catagorically place Islam within the monotheistic religions, but would have to reject it more than Judaism since it does not respect the Scriptural base. However, to those that have not received a meaningful encounter with Jesus and his Gospel... including a lot of muslims due to the secular authorities laws to prevent Christian evangelism... those individuals have to base their knowledge of God from nature and in those p***ages of the Koran that are borrowed or adapted from the O.T.. You haven't really presented Islam here in what we have in common. In many respects, finding the commonality is the door for evangelism. If you fail to be a peacemaker, if you fail to be slow to speak and quick to listen as James instructs, you are going to be an ineffective presenter to the muslim in a meaningful engagement with the Gospel of our Lord.

You are in effect throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

1 Corinthians 2:3-5

3 I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling,

4 and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,

5 so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.


So for the Muslims we must present a different gospel then what Paul preached?

The Gospel of Jesus is often offensive to those who are perishing.

Romans 9:33
just as it is written," BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

[Columcille]

Originally Posted by Leslie

So by telling people that Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven, I am not doing the right thing?

Is that all you are telling them? Are you one of those hit and run evangelists? Don't expect to really care for their physical needs or their emotional needs, just throw out the presentation as though you have meaningfully engaged the muslim? Because if that is all, then you certainly are not applying what Sayso's has presented with Scripture in 1 Cor.. The fruits of the Spirit, mind you... love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, meekness, and self-control, if this is part of your presentation of the Gospel, then the power of the truth will follow it. But this is not how it often happens in presenting the Gospel to the Muslims, except for those effective ministers already with their nose to the grindstone inside Muslim governments.


I think you should go line by line with the quotes I have started off with. Apparently your reading of it is tainted by what you percieve before you encountered it. An effective sentence by sentence exegete should clear it up.

[Trinity]

People who were living without any clue about christianity or judaism will be judged and saved by their level of revelation. It is inconceivable that some people were created to finish in hell just because those people had never seen a missionary during their days. This is cruel and immoral.

Trinity

[Leslie]

So they'll be saved by good works right?

[Columcille]

Originally Posted by Leslie

So they'll be saved by good works right?

YOu are sounding like a broken record. Your question would depend on the individual's level of revelation, both natural and divinely revealed. I cannot answer either a resounding yes or no, simply because it is up to God to determine. I see no works oriented application in the Romans 1 & 2 p***ages, but generally speaking works are a good indicator of a soul with some good moral backbone. I think there will probably be some level of social respect to that individual who does good works, but I doubt you will see anyone really love Scrooge, Grinch, or even Mr. Potter of "Its a wonderful life" until they express honest good will. As Jesus says that a good tree produces good fruit, I seriously doubt we can attribute in general a righteousness based on an untried faith in the preChristian individuals. I should like to think people like Sparticus made it into heaven. I cannot name anybody after Christ in the bushs of Africa to point to anyone famous there who might or might not on the day of judgement receive the kingdom through Christ. You would have to give me a case by case scenerio where I could ask general questions concerning an individual's character to ascertain whether Christ is working in him, despite not having been divinely revealed to him by a missionary or fellow Christian.

[Trinity]

Originally Posted by Leslie

So they'll be saved by good works right?

Not really. Some will be saved because they acknowledge (faith) the existence of a supreme creator, the creator of everything, and they serve him with very highest moral standards. They received their revelation by the laws of the creation.

Romans 2:14-16 Even when Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, instinctively follow what the law says, they show that in their hearts they know right from wrong. They demonstrate that God's law is written within them, for their own consciences either accuse them or tell them they are doing what is right. The day will surely come when God, by Jesus Christ, will judge everyone's secret life. This is my message.

The Spirit of God can find them like he had found Abraham. Abraham who was an idols worshipper in the Chaldean land.

Romans 1:20 From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God.

Trinity

[Leslie]

Where does it say that Abraham worshipped idols?

[Trinity]

Originally Posted by Leslie

Where does it say that Abraham worshipped idols?

In the Jewish traditions. His father according to the story was an idols salesman.

http://www.chabad.org/library/articl...Early-Life.htm

Trinity

[Leslie]

Originally Posted by Trinity

In the Jewish traditions. His father according to the story was an idols salesman.

http://www.chabad.org/library/articl...Early-Life.htm

Trinity

Now where does it say that HE worshipped idols in the Bible? I'm not interested right now in Jewish stories and fables.

BTw, I'm not against the idea of God reaching a person via supernatural means. What I dispute is the notion that once he has he won't lead them to the knowledge of Christ via some way, wither it be an angel or a missionary etc.

[Columcille]

What exactly do you mean by the following quote?

BTw, I'm not against the idea of God reaching a person via supernatural means. What I dispute is the notion that once he has he won't lead them to the knowledge of Christ via some way, wither it be an angel or a missionary etc.

Are a Mormon? Do you believe Christ came to the Native Americans and preached too? Balderdash. If such a supernatural event occured in any particular group, don't you think a tale of such events would have been handed down? As is, most cases do not show any evidence of a leading to Christ; although I am sure you are going to find miraculous events in almost any culture... even stories related to the Buddah for instance. If God were to show himself supernaturally, the people who saw it can still fall away or ignore the message. Judas is a prime example of a person who knew Jesus, saw supernatural events and heard him speak about himself as the Christ, yet he fell away. For the most part, I think it speculation to make the ***umption that your notion is a correct one. I see no evidence to suggest it in any culture.

[Bob Carabbio]

Just one OTHER thing that the Romanists are Dead wrong about. But hey - maybe it'll keep the Islamic pagan hoards from burning their property when they get powerful enough to do it. Only a matter of time.

[Leslie]

The Word says,

"Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:" (Acts 17:29-30).

[Columcille]

If you look at his audience, "this ignorance" is the worshipping of idols made of gold, silver, etc. "This ignorance" does not apply to Romans 1 and 2, since they seeing the invisible God through his creation and living a law unto themselves where their conscience is clean, they are not worshipping idols and already live in a fashion a repentant life similiar in manner as perhaps after John the Baptist but prior to the knowledge of Christ. His audience were pagans who worshipped idols crafted out of things... Islam does not have any craven images that they worship.

[Leslie]

Originally Posted by Columcille

If you look at his audience, "this ignorance" is the worshipping of idols made of gold, silver, etc. "This ignorance" does not apply to Romans 1 and 2, since they seeing the invisible God through his creation and living a law unto themselves where their conscience is clean, they are not worshipping idols and already live in a fashion a repentant life similiar in manner as perhaps after John the Baptist but prior to the knowledge of Christ. His audience were pagans who worshipped idols crafted out of things... Islam does not have any craven images that they worship.

Islam does worship a false god though. Wouldn't you agree?

[Columcille]

Originally Posted by Leslie

Islam does worship a false god though. Wouldn't you agree?

Leslie, let us go line by line through the LG16.

Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*)

This is the thesis statement. It has several scriptural p***ages that is used as examples to support the thesis.
125 Cf. Rom. 9, 4-5
126 Cf. Rom. 1 l, 28-29.
127 Cf. Acts 17,25-28.
128 Cf. 1 Tim. 2, 4.
129 Cf Rom. 1, 21, 25.
130 Mk. 16, 16.
It also gives
Supplemental quotes referenced:
(18) Cfr. S. Thomas, Summa Theol. III, q. 8, a. 3, ad 1.
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4008.htm#article3

(19) Cfr. Epist. S.S.C.S. Officii ad Archiep. Boston.: Denz. 3869-72.
(20) Cfr. Eusebius Caes., Praeparatio Evangelica, 1, 1: PG 2128 AB.


Now I have laid down the primary sources, both the LG, NA, and CCC in my first initial post. But I have also given, for the purpose of going line-by-line, the summa reference so we can start with the thesis and progress. Here is the reply to objection 1 in article 3 of question 8 in part III:

Reply to Objection 1. Those who are unbaptized, though not actually in the Church, are in the Church potentially. And this potentiality is rooted in two things--first and principally, in the power of Christ, which is sufficient for the salvation of the whole human race; secondly, in free-will.

Firstly, what we are talking about here applies to those who have not received the Gospel. A lot of Muslims have not received the Gospel, so in essence we have to look at their potential to be recieved by Christ as St. Thomas Aquinas has given answer. If you are following what I am saying, then we can continue on with the next sentence where the supporting statements and examples are given.

[Leslie]

I will reply to the scriptural sources you have given, the others I will not reply to right away as they are not from Inspired sources, and thus do not represent what is God-Breathed, but are the opinions of men. I just can't do it at the moment hehe.



I do enjoy reading Aquinas though ^_^

[Columcille]

Originally Posted by Leslie

I will reply to the scriptural sources you have given, the others I will not reply to right away as they are not from Inspired sources, and thus do not represent what is God-Breathed, but are the opinions of men. I just can't do it at the moment hehe.



I do enjoy reading Aquinas though ^_^

I think you should at least comment on it. After all, the whole purpose of the forum is to defend's one faith. As is, I am defending mine. It seems to me, even when I was a Protestant, that there abounds a lot of misunderstanding of what the Catholic Church actually teaches. If you are going to say my Church teaches some sort of unitarian salvation, then what Aquinas says here in support of the Lunem gentium is the appropriate place to start.

So the next line is the follows:

In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125)
(125) "They are Israelites; theirs the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises;
5
theirs the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, is the Messiah. God who is over all 3 be blessed forever. Amen. " Romans 9. 4-5.

3 [5] Some editors punctuate this verse differently and prefer the translation, "Of whom is Christ according to the flesh, who is God over all." However, Paul's point is that God who is over all aimed to use Israel, which had been entrusted with every privilege, in outreach to the entire world through the Messiah.



Relating back to the thesis, the potentiality of salvation extended to the Jews first with all the benefits that was given to them in both the verses... the patriarchs, the law, the worship, and the promises. In essence, they were looking forward to the Messiah. As such God's covenant is real and benificial and does not p*** away... but in Christ is fulfilled. In potential, there are many Jews today that have not encountered the Gospel meaningfully, and who in the worship of God in the old covenant as it is adapted, are in potential under Christ's salvation. Once the Gospel is presented where the misconceptions are removed and understood, at that conjecture does the Jew meet at the crossroad of decision. If he was in reality within the potential, he will naturally gravitate to the Gospel and growing will recognize the fulfillments of Messiah. However, if he rejects it... then whatever potential existed would be removed.

[Bob Carabbio]

THEN OBVIOUSLY we need to IMMEDIATELY pull ALL our missionaries OUT of the field, and cancel ALL our outreaches.

GOOD HEAVENS!!!! We're giving folks who WOULD be saved by their total ignorance, the requirement of deciding about Jesus, and ****ing themselves when they don't accept him, whereas they'd have been SAFE if we'd just left 'em alone!!!!!

HOW DARE WE "Go into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."!!!!

Don't we realize the horrendous damage we're doing to people?????!!!!

Or maybe the Bible's SERIOUS, and the Religious "Experts" are wrong, here.

[Columcille]

Salvation is not the only essential element of the Gospel. It is also living to the fullest potential that God created you to be. Hence, while you only talk about salvation, it is also deliverance in all the other aspects of our humanity. Hence, the Gospel offers forgiveness, love, hope in repairing the disfunctions of our relationships with each other.

Originally Posted by Bob Carabbio

THEN OBVIOUSLY we need to IMMEDIATELY pull ALL our missionaries OUT of the field, and cancel ALL our outreaches.

GOOD HEAVENS!!!! We're giving folks who WOULD be saved by their total ignorance, the requirement of deciding about Jesus, and ****ing themselves when they don't accept him, whereas they'd have been SAFE if we'd just left 'em alone!!!!!

HOW DARE WE "Go into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."!!!!

Don't we realize the horrendous damage we're doing to people?????!!!!

Or maybe the Bible's SERIOUS, and the Religious "Experts" are wrong, here.

[sayso]

Originally Posted by Columcille

Salvation is not the only essential element of the Gospel. It is also living to the fullest potential that God created you to be. Hence, while you only talk about salvation, it is also deliverance in all the other aspects of our humanity. Hence, the Gospel offers forgiveness, love, hope in repairing the disfunctions of our relationships with each other.

Salvation is forgiveness, love, hope and repairing our own relationship with God. That is exactly what Jesus came to earth and died for, so that mankind might be reconciled to God.

Man can not find forgiveness, love, hope or repaired relationships if he doesn't first have a repaired relationship with God. He can not have this aside from being born again by the Spirit of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Proverbs 9:10
The reverent and worshipful fear of the Lord is the beginning (the chief and choice part) of Wisdom, and the knowledge of the Holy One is insight and understanding.


John 17

1 WHEN JESUS had spoken these things, He lifted up His eyes to heaven and said, Father, the hour has come. Glorify and exalt and honor and magnify Your Son, so that Your Son may glorify and extol and honor and magnify You.

2 [Just as] You have granted Him power and authority over all flesh (all humankind), [now glorify Him] so that He may give eternal life to all whom You have given Him.

3 And this is eternal life: [it means] to know (to perceive, recognize, become acquainted with, and understand) You, the only true and real God, and [likewise] to know Him, Jesus [as the] Christ (the Anointed One, the Messiah), Whom You have sent.


This is salvation to know God and the One Whom God sent. Everything that matters in life (this life or the next) hangs on this.

If we are not preaching salvation through Christ by sharing our faith, then we are like the servant who when given one talent by his Master went and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money. You remember what his end was right?

Matthew 25

26 But his master answered him, You wicked and lazy and idle servant! Did you indeed know that I reap where I have not sowed and gather where I have not winnowed?

27 Then you should have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received what was my own with interest.

28 So take the talent away from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents.

29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will be furnished richly so that he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have will be taken away.

30 And throw the good-for-nothing servant into the outer darkness; there will be weeping and grinding of teeth.

[Columcille]

Knowing God and knowing about God are two distinct aspects. Salvation is not forgiveness, love, and hope... it is the byproduct of it. One is not truly saved till they have entered into the Lord's rest, that relationship that they are growing in with God and their relations with others is a maturing love. The same sort of love that repairs the relationship of a broken marriage, the dysfunctional family, with a hostile environment with your coworkers... these are not included in our ideas of salvation because when we do enter into our rest we will be like the angels having no sex, and in a sense only having a memory of our relationships while we were in the flesh. We will be equals in terms of our make-up, but those that served most will be blessed most. Would you say that a wife and husband's love is salvation? Would their mutual hope be salvation? Would their forgiving each other be salvation? The hope you speak of in salvation terms is eternal life, the Love you speak of in salvation is reconcilation with God via forgiveness. But the hope of a marriage is having an opposite partner that completes you as one flesh for the purpose of having children. The hopes of a parent may wish their children to have eternal life, but their hopes are also very secular driven... they want their children to succeed, they want to leave an impression of themselves--a sort of legacy. If your only hope is salvation... then you are thinking too large to do any real good for the rest of us. As far as I am concerned, I got to pick up my cross daily and in the sense of the original 12 step Christian based program of AA... the addiction being grounded in our flesh... my focus is on baby steps, day by day, hour by hour, and even minute by minute if needs be. I am not just a Christian (who happens to be Catholic), I am also a man, a husband, a brother, a student, a worker, and God knows what other hopes and clean asperations that are not a part of eternal life.

Originally Posted by sayso

Salvation is forgiveness, love, hope and repairing our own relationship with God. That is exactly what Jesus came to earth and died for, so that mankind might be reconciled to God.

Man can not find forgiveness, love, hope or repaired relationships if he doesn't first have a repaired relationship with God. He can not have this aside from being born again by the Spirit of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Proverbs 9:10
The reverent and worshipful fear of the Lord is the beginning (the chief and choice part) of Wisdom, and the knowledge of the Holy One is insight and understanding.


John 17

1 WHEN JESUS had spoken these things, He lifted up His eyes to heaven and said, Father, the hour has come. Glorify and exalt and honor and magnify Your Son, so that Your Son may glorify and extol and honor and magnify You.

2 [Just as] You have granted Him power and authority over all flesh (all humankind), [now glorify Him] so that He may give eternal life to all whom You have given Him.

3 And this is eternal life: [it means] to know (to perceive, recognize, become acquainted with, and understand) You, the only true and real God, and [likewise] to know Him, Jesus [as the] Christ (the Anointed One, the Messiah), Whom You have sent.


This is salvation to know God and the One Whom God sent. Everything that matters in life (this life or the next) hangs on this.

If we are not preaching salvation through Christ by sharing our faith, then we are like the servant who when given one talent by his Master went and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money. You remember what his end was right?

Matthew 25

26 But his master answered him, You wicked and lazy and idle servant! Did you indeed know that I reap where I have not sowed and gather where I have not winnowed?

27 Then you should have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received what was my own with interest.

28 So take the talent away from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents.

29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will be furnished richly so that he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have will be taken away.

30 And throw the good-for-nothing servant into the outer darkness; there will be weeping and grinding of teeth.

[alanmolstad]

In Islam, they worship what they do not know...