Tri-Oneness

[jyajoe]

I was raised in a pentecostal church and really did not know any difference about what the word "SAVED" really meant, except you speak with tongues live right by Jesus Christ and you go to Heaven.

However after reading the Bible I started looking for answers to the things I believed and why I believed them. Dabbling on the internet I came across Dr Martin and his debate of oneness vs trinity. He was such a wise man and we should all hope to know the scriptures as he did. But I found this one scripture that just kept hitting me night after night:

Jhn 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

When I see the debates on oneness vs trinity this scripture never came up but when put together with other scriptures it all makes since to me.

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:

Now still in a pentecostal church and thought I had it all laid out for the perfect salvation Im back to wondering what the word "SAVED" is all about and if Im following what I really believe. Because as John points out in 5:26 There is more than one Divine person in the GODHEAD.

Not being double-minded but as I said before I was raised in the pentecostal church and never really knew the knowledge the Bible had except what I was told by a preacher.

[jyajoe]

I feel the oneness teachings is like a sign facing one way on a 2-way street where only half of the people are really getting the message that the Lord gave to us.

[JE]

Originally Posted by jyajoe

I was raised in a pentecostal church and really did not know any difference about what the word "SAVED" really meant, except you speak with tongues live right by Jesus Christ and you go to Heaven.

However after reading the Bible I started looking for answers to the things I believed and why I believed them. Dabbling on the internet I came across Dr Martin and his debate of oneness vs trinity. He was such a wise man and we should all hope to know the scriptures as he did. But I found this one scripture that just kept hitting me night after night:

Jhn 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

When I see the debates on oneness vs trinity this scripture never came up but when put together with other scriptures it all makes since to me.

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:

Now still in a pentecostal church and thought I had it all laid out for the perfect salvation Im back to wondering what the word "SAVED" is all about and if Im following what I really believe. Because as John points out in 5:26 There is more than one Divine person in the GODHEAD.

Not being double-minded but as I said before I was raised in the pentecostal church and never really knew the knowledge the Bible had except what I was told by a preacher.

jyajoe,
I was also raised in a oneness pentecostal church. When I started reading the Bible for myself and seeing things that were contrary to what oneness preaches. I remember trying to witness to a Jehovah's Witness and I turned to John Ch. 1. When I read verse 1 it jumped out at me like I had never read it before. After several more years other things kept popping up and mking me question it all. I finally sat down and over the course of several months wrote out what the Bible actually says on UPC/ oneness doctrine. The main thing I found is that EVERY SINGLE DOCTRINE that is unique to oneness is not Biblical.
Salvation like they teach it is not biblical. See John 5:24 and Romans 10:8-13.
"Jesus name baptism" like they teach it is not biblical. See Acts 4:7 for an explanation of what "in the name" means, not to mention the fact that nowhere in the Bible does it record what anyone said during a baptism.
Holiness standards like they teach it is not biblical. All the scriptures they use to prove them are out of context, and some of their standards don't have scriptural backing at all, like the facial hair thing.
The oneness of God like they teach it is not biblical. They don't understand what the doctrine of the trinity really says. Everything they argue against it is not really what it says. Here's a great resource that explains it a little more in detail. http://www.irr.org/trinity-outline.html

Basically, what I'm trying to tell you is that if you leave a oneness chuch and find another church you WILL NOT lose your salvation. In fact, you will probably get closer to God and start understanding Him better.

Advice: Don't trust what anyone says until you can verify it in scripture. And the scripture should be in context, and backed up by other scripture.

[johnd]

Congratulations to you both!

The Holy Spirit of God has prevailed over human teaching.

2 Peter 1:20-21 (NIV)
20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation.
21 For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.


Other translations begin this p***age "know this first..."


And to those denominations or preachers or self-proclaimed apostles or prophets or "anointed" I say this:

Acts 17:11 (NIV)
11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.


If the Apostle Paul was to be biblically scrutinized and the people who did it were praised for doing it... then the much less apostolic, prophetic, anointed want-to-be's of today should be scrutinized by the Bible all the more! And if they put up a fuss run for the door.

A good code to live by:

1 Thessalonians 5:21 (NIV)
21 Test everything. Hold on to the good.


1 John 4:1 (NIV)
1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits* to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.


*including the spirits mere men or your own supposition claims to be the Holy Spirit (and may be a false spirit, or one's own will p***ing off as a word from God) test even the Holy Spirit, he won't mind. He is consistent with the Bible he inspired (2 Peter 1:20-21).

Acts 17:11 (NIV)
11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.


2 Timothy 3:16-17 (NIV)
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.


2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.


2 Peter 1:20-21 (KJV)
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


John 16:13 (KJV)
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.


He will lead us to all truth but we feeble minded easily fooled human being have to be certain it is the genuine Holy Spirit each time we think we hard from a spirit or are lead by a spirit...



And also Dr. Martin did a good study on speaking in tounges in which he goes into every side of the argument for and about speaking in tongues. More than the average non-pentecostal would.



I tend to take Pastor Chuck Smith's view of the matter and that is speaking in tongues is biblical for today... it is not required for salvation, but it is applicable for today and is often at Calvary Chapels reserved for afterglow services or private get togethers rather than in open Church UNLESS there is also an accompanying interpretation of the tongues.


You might try Calvary Chapels... www.calvarychapel.com (locator for a local church in your area at the site). try here

[johnd]

Ephesians 2:8-10 (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.



John 3:16-18 (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


John 10:27-30 (KJV)
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and my Father are one.


Jeremiah 32:40 (KJV)
40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.


If you believe in the genuine Jesus (there are counterfeit Jesus's), you are saved. Being water baptized is not a requirement nor is speaking in tongues. These are outward testimonials of an inward transformation... and that inward transformation is of God not of man.



And we are secure in the Father's hand and in the Son's hand, AND we shall not depart from the faith. So, once you're in Christ there's no escape! {smile}


Those who do depart indicate they were never saved to begin with.

1 John 2:18-19 (NASB95)
18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.
19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.



Now if a Church or denomination teaches or even implies that your salvation is depended upon your remaining with them (misusing 1 John 2:18-19 which is meant to apply to the body of Christ as a whole) then you have stumbled into what would best be described as a body of people with cultic tendencies. IN the case of oneness Pentecostals... I would say you have already discovered that the church you go to is at odds with the Bible teaching about the persons in the Godhead... and that means the Jesus they teach is not the biblical Jesus, doesn't it?


Don't take my word for it. Use the Bible.



Galatians 1:8-9 (NASB95)
8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!


2 Corinthians 11:3-4 (NASB95)
3 But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.
4 For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.


The mention of the fact that there are counterfeit Jesus's and counterfeit Gospels and counterfeit (Holy) Spirits in the world tells us we'd better be certain we have the genuine Jesus, genuine Gospel, genuine Holy Spirit... and the only way to prove all things and test the spirits is the Bible... not denominational creeds or doctrines of men. The Bible.


Those who teach a false Jesus will see this come judgment day...


Matthew 7:21-23 (NASB95)
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’


The will of the Father is not:
prophesying in Jesus' name
casting out demons in Jesus' name

performing many miracles in Jesus' name


Jesus said it was practicing lawlessness.


The acts themselves would not law be lawless if they had believed in the genuine Jesus. The same with helping a little old lady across the street one day while unsaved lost and the next day saved. The same act is lawlessness the first day and a righteous deed the next day. Because the difference is the one helping the same little old lady to cross the busy street is saved one day and not the other.


The Bible teaches there are three individuals who are the one God. Jesus did not say I AM one. He did not say I and the Father are one and the same. He said I and the Father are one. And in John 17 he states more than once he prays that we who believe in him will be one as he is one with the Father.



We who believe are not one and the same. We are united. But we are many. In the Godhead there is more than one who is God. And you must ask yourself, Jyajoe, if the church you attended all this time teaches a Jesus and a God that is different from the one in the Bible isn't it about time you stopped going there and go to a Church that teaches what the Bible says?

[jeanmarie]

Originally Posted by jyajoe

I was raised in a pentecostal church and really did not know any difference about what the word "SAVED" really meant, except you speak with tongues live right by Jesus Christ and you go to Heaven.

However after reading the Bible I started looking for answers to the things I believed and why I believed them. Dabbling on the internet I came across Dr Martin and his debate of oneness vs trinity. He was such a wise man and we should all hope to know the scriptures as he did. But I found this one scripture that just kept hitting me night after night:

Jhn 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

When I see the debates on oneness vs trinity this scripture never came up but when put together with other scriptures it all makes since to me.

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:

Now still in a pentecostal church and thought I had it all laid out for the perfect salvation Im back to wondering what the word "SAVED" is all about and if Im following what I really believe. Because as John points out in 5:26 There is more than one Divine person in the GODHEAD.

Not being double-minded but as I said before I was raised in the pentecostal church and never really knew the knowledge the Bible had except what I was told by a preacher.

As believers we are saved by grace. Eph.2;8-9
The Bible does not teach a person must speak in tongues to be saved. If a person has received the gift of tongues , they are already saved by grace. The Lord doesn't give His gifts to unbelievers. The Bible also teaches, not all reciceve the gift of tongues. See 1Cor.12:27-30
To believe we are saved by works is to deny the perfect sacrifice of Christ. Jesus saved all believers, we do not have to perform anything to save ourself.
We are saved by grace.


God bless,
Jeanm

[Tom Boots]

So you believe there is other members of a trio, and it takes all three to make this one God?

[Tom Boots]

How old we're you achild?
A new convert?
A person who didn't study and still has not as I could prove?
I wish you were around, still here as I see your post is three yrs old.
Maybe you will come back and visit and see and learn if I am still around.

[Tom Boots]

I feel Trinitarian teachings is like a sign with both sides ignored by the people in the church, where all can see but none ever come to the learning of salvation, Godhead, Baptism, Spirit baptism,speaking in tongues , Holiness and more, as they in most cases never get the message thatGod gave us.

[Tom Boots]

If you saw something jump out of at you in John 1:and were so perceptive, (though you never explain what jumped out at you )[was it a three headed freak show of a monster which you all the Trinity?],how come you cannot see plain things like One God, jump out at you, see Jesus name baptism, any resemblance to Holy living or Spirit baptism with tongues and truth?

No! You seem to think three gods jumped out ofJohn 1:1 and yet in the verse no such thing is stated, nor three persons, nor a God the Son, or eternal Son or a deity called Trinity, but something jumped out and stole away true biblical doctrine to give you, your Catholic idealogy.

You can't find anyone teaching. A doctrine of the Trinity or false triadic repe***ion repeating of ***les in baptism.
You have no scripture to support the false doctrine of three beings as one God, Jesus or the Apostles knew , no such thing.

How about backing up with scripture one person being baptized in ***les, one person saying God is three separate persons or persons at all, or God is to be called Trinity or you will be burned at the stake or have your head chopped off.

No, I know you deny Holiness standards as your church as awhile refuses to believe such and are ungodly unregenerate folks.

[Tom Boots]

Calvary Chapel is a cult.
Has never been part of the church of the Bible and is nothing more than a Catholic daughter work, brought forth by a man who was a false teacher.
Your people don't know what the usage of Baptism with the Holy Ghost is or Gifts of the Spirit.
Walter Martin got caught lying and avoided debating Oneness Minister Robert Sabin after he made up doctrines and ideas and could not back them words up from the John Ankerberg show in 1985.

[Tom Boots]

Yes I am at odds with a church which makes up Persons in a godhead teaching , IT AIN'T THERE.

[Tom Boots]

Repent and be baptized everyone of you for the remission of sins Acts2:38, seems to be at odds with you just saying saved by grace and not obeying the rest of the word.
How about Jesus words which you reject He that believers and is baptized shall be saved and he that believers not is gonna be lost!
How about Jesus commandment(not suggestion) of being baptized in a singular name in Matt. 28:19-20, seems like you folks don't like to follow all of the scriptures that plainly tell you how to be saved.
Like John 3:3-5, Ye must be born again of the WATER and the SPIRIT.

[kjos013]

Tom Boots says:"Calvary Chapel is a cult.Has never been part of the church of the bible and is nothing more than a Catholic daughter work,brought forth by a man who was a false teacher."
How's that?Because of what they teach,doesn't agree with your theology?
Tom Boots says:Walter Martin got caught lying and avoided debating Oneness minister Robert Sabin after he made up doctrines and ideas and could not back them words up from the John Ankerberg show in 1985.
No,you're wrong there,and wishful thinking on your part.I saw the whole debate on Youtube,Walter Martin pretty much nailed that debate.

[Tom Boots]

Originally Posted by kjos013

Tom Boots says:"Calvary Chapel is a cult.Has never been part of the church of the bible and is nothing more than a Catholic daughter work,brought forth by a man who was a false teacher."
How's that?Because of what they teach,doesn't agree with your theology?


Because of the false teaching regarding about everything and their history, which has ****sexuals and new agers leading it.
I reject their teachings and anyone looking at a picture of their church people see No Holiness, not even a smidgen.

Tom Boots says:Walter Martin got caught lying and avoided debating Oneness minister Robert Sabin after he made up doctrines and ideas and could not back them words up from the John Ankerberg show in 1985.
No,you're wrong there,and wishful thinking on your part.I saw the whole debate on Youtube,Walter Martin pretty much nailed that debate.

So this is whay Walter would not debate in almost 4 years Sabin or any other Oneness who called him out about comments he made on the show?
Fact HE DID NOT!
Fact HE LIED!
Fact He made up Greek statements found to be bogus
Fact John Ankerberg lied about intentions of program to his Oneness visitors
Fact Beisner sat there why Martin lied about him not believing in a eternal Son as Walter said he did not (did he think someone would not record or tape or get a transcript??)
Fact the Trinity side got twice as much time on program to ramble on and then not tell truth and make it appear to the foolish followers that they won.
Fact Trinitarians would not accept a debate with only 1/3 rd of the time in a fair publica debate, [I am sure you would not with one with me].
Fact Oneness hold One God and Martin and the Trinitarians held three beings in a godhead making up a composite deity as a plural one, yet really three individual gods.

Doctrines they are dead wrong on
GODHEAD VIEW OF THREE PERSONS MAKING UP A OLD GENTILE PAGAN TEACHING.
*T*i*t*LE BAPTISM WITH FALSE FORMULA AND REASON FOR BAPTISM AS WELL AS DENYING THE NAME JESUS IN BAPTISM.
FAKE SPIRIT BAPTISM TEACHING, since one follows a Trinity in their camp, one cannot get truth and thus not the Spirit.
HOLINESS, wow, ever see a picture of people in their churches, people who are in charge and married to them, they have no inward Holiness and no outward Holiness as seen by perusing any church of theirs on the web that has a gallery of pictures or Ministry and their people, SHAMEFUL!!

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Tom Boots

Fact Oneness hold One God and Martin and the Trinitarians held three beings in a godhead making up a composite deity as a plural one, yet really three individual gods.

Not 3 gods....but rather we believe that the Bible teaches there are 3-persons....

So its One God, in 3-persons.

The father is not the son
The son is not the spirit, etc...

But all 3 are the One God.