R UFOs real?

[alanmolstad]

nope....


The short answer is that all of the photos are faked, or just normal things.

all the stories are lies, or are just dreams that got people mixed up...
But mostly the photos are fake and the stories are lies.


While I would hope that we will one day find that there is plenty of other life out there in deep space among the stars, I dont find any support at all for the claim that spaceships from other worlds are here buzzing earth.


I have looked at all the photos that are commonly pointed to as "proof", and they all seem faked or just normal lights in the sky.

I dont believe any story i have ever heard where people were asleep and were "taken"


wishful thinking, perhaps the stuff of dreams that might make a good scifi movie script...
But not real proof in the slightest way.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

nope....


The short answer is that all of the photos are faked, or just normal things.

all the stories are lies, or are just dreams that got people mixed up...
But mostly the photos are fake and the stories are lies.


While I would hope that we will one day find that there is plenty of other life out there in deep space among the stars, I dont find any support at all for the claim that spaceships from other worlds are here buzzing earth.


I have looked at all the photos that are commonly pointed to as "proof", and they all seem faked or just normal lights in the sky.

I dont believe any story i have ever heard where people were asleep and were "taken"


wishful thinking, perhaps the stuff of dreams that might make a good scifi movie script...
But not real proof in the slightest way.

I still stand behind this post...

[dfoJC]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

nope....


The short answer is that all of the photos are faked, or just normal things.

all the stories are lies, or are just dreams that got people mixed up...
But mostly the photos are fake and the stories are lies.


While I would hope that we will one day find that there is plenty of other life out there in deep space among the stars, I dont find any support at all for the claim that spaceships from other worlds are here buzzing earth.


I have looked at all the photos that are commonly pointed to as "proof", and they all seem faked or just normal lights in the sky.

I dont believe any story i have ever heard where people were asleep and were "taken"


wishful thinking, perhaps the stuff of dreams that might make a good scifi movie script...
But not real proof in the slightest way.

Are you absolutely positive of this Alan? Not a chance that you could be wrong? Aw shucks, I am just pulling your leg.

I want to throw out something that is nothing but mere speculation on my part. I do agree with you in one regard, that is, I reject the notion that there are "aliens" out in the universe. However, I do believe that there is another universe that really doesn't get that much attention when it comes to Ufology.

My speculation is this, that what people may be seeing, or reporting, or even following is a manifetation of the spiritual universe. If I may put it that way.

My only reason for this speculation is that in case you haven't noticed, there is quite a large group of people who are following and believing in this phenomenon.

What do you think? Is this, or is this not a possiblity? A spiritual trap perhaps? To lead people away from hearing the truth? And in the end all it really is is nothing more than a clever deception? Remember that group that committed suicide when they weren't rescued by the aliens? It was in California a long time ago. That tells you something is at work here for people to go to such an extreme.

OK, that is just my thoughts. Isn't it nice to get out of the Mormon thread every now and then?

Be blessed,

dfoJC

[alanmolstad]

a person can believe in a fancy dream so much that it becomes real to them, and can have an ability to effect their hearts.

Now I dont believe for a moment that anyone actually "sees" something in the sky that is a UFO or a demon.
But, you can see things that you dont understand in the night sky and this can lead you to come up with all kinds of reasons for the unexplained .

Thousands of years ago men understood that some stars would back up and travel the wrong way in the sky....they also saw every night that some stars fell down.
This knowledge of the basic facts had no explanation, and to come up with a reason some stars moved in the wrong direction and others fell to the ground we ended up with a whole Mythology around the stars that soon became a whole new religion that is still around to this very day.

So seeing things you dont understand can become a way to build a religion...and that means there can be a connection between UFOs and a person faith life...

But aside from this, I dont believe for even a second that Satan is flying around in the sky with a flashlight making weird UFO sounds to fool people.

[dfoJC]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

a person can believe in a fancy dream so much that it becomes real to them, and can have an ability to effect their hearts.

Now I dont believe for a moment that anyone actually "sees" something in the sky that is a UFO or a demon.
But, you can see things that you dont understand in the night sky and this can lead you to come up with all kinds of reasons for the unexplained .

Thousands of years ago men understood that some stars would back up and travel the wrong way in the sky....they also saw every night that some stars fell down.
This knowledge of the basic facts had no explanation, and to come up with a reason some stars moved in the wrong direction and others fell to the ground we ended up with a whole Mythology around the stars that soon became a whole new religion that is still around to this very day.

So seeing things you dont understand can become a way to build a religion...and that means there can be a connection between UFOs and a person faith life...

But aside from this, I dont believe for even a second that Satan is flying around in the sky with a flashlight making weird UFO sounds to fool people.

All very true statements, but I know for a fact that the devil is flying around with a flashlight! And making funny noises to! OK, that was just to funny and I had to comment on it.

Thanks for responding Alan. Take care of your self up there in the Dakotas...

dfoJC

[alanmolstad]

Things that are fake in my book...

#1 - stories of UFOs and little green men.
#2 - Big foot
#3 - Nessy.
#4 - any and all proof of a young earth only 6,000 years old.
#5 - stories where a demon shows up.
#6 - all speaking in tongues where you end up with babbling only.
#7 - any "healings" where people line up.

[alanmolstad]

Now I do believe in the very great chance of life being found off the earth.
i beleiev that God actually has planted a garden of life in the night sky, and i have no doubt at all that over the next few thousand years or so we shall find that life is a natural thing that can happen on any world if given a chance by a world's temp and distance from a sun.

But i do not believe in UFOs at all.

I think all the proof of UFOs is fake, and lies.

I believe all the photos of UFOs are fake, all the stories are fake, or just things that are mistaken to be something else....

[tdidymas]

Don't know if this is a subject that people want to talk about, it looks like there was only 1 day of discussion. Perhaps my input might spark some response..

Firstly I don't believe in UFOs. Meaning of course, I do not believe that what is commonly believed to be UFOs are extraterrestrial spacecraft. With that said, I studied ufology for some time, went through the FBI Blue Files, saw and recorded every UFO Report and investigation I could get from TV, was an avid X-files fan, saw all the Star Trek series including the original, next gen, deep space, and voyager, and have seen most sci-fi movies ever made.

Back in '65 I once went out on an 'adventure' with some guys, and they started talking about little green men (I was 11 yrs old). I never saw anything, but we had some fun. The only problem is that by the time I got home I was 2 hours past curfew, and I had to make up something that sounded legit to excuse myself. So I told the story about the little green men, with some extra embellishment. It looked like I almost had my mother convinced; at least she didn't punish me.

The point is that if a story is told well enough, it can be believed. After all, why are there so many cults, religions, and even denominations in our own Christian faith? The fact is that stories are indeed being told well enough to be believed. And some people are even saying that the Bible is a story so well-told that it is believed (of course, meaning that it's a made-up story). As an aside, I believe the Bible not because it is a believable story, but because it has given me the peace of heart I was desperately looking for, which comes from my personal experience with a Personal God.

I gather that people are desperate for a story that fits their longing for completeness and purpose in life. Such stories can be addictive and appear to satisfy the gap that is experienced from a dissatisfied existence. So then people are desperate to believe that story that fits their idea of the universe, the "I WANT to believe" at***ude that takes them down a path of obsession. Such is the world of UFOs.

Now concerning the patterns I see from the evidences presented:

1. Not one picture or video of a UFO is clear. They are all fuzzy, shakey, grainy, out of focus, etc. In other words, you cannot possibly tell what it is from the pictures alone. And this concerns the pictures that are not obvious fakes. About 90% of all UFO pictures are faked. If you study them, you will see: strings, reflections, ill-fit sizes, photo-shopped scenes, even common things thrown into the air and photo-snapped as if they were flying saucers. 90% of the "evidence" presented is completely fraudulent. Meaning that the originators of the evidence were lying about what they saw or about how the evidence was obtained. The believability is in how the story is told and the receptivity of the hearers.

2. Night scenes are always very shakey. People don't realize just how deceptive night vision can be in regard to lights that are far off. The shakeyness of night videos are usually regarded as being stable scenes, with lights that are "rapidly moving this way and that." People describe distant lights they see as flying objects that are defying known physics, not realizing that naked eye twitching can make distant lights in the darkness appear to be in motion. But people believe what they are looking for, not what actually is. One MIT researcher noted that a group of UFO watchers only saw UFOs at the same exact time that traffic was moving a certain direction on a certain stretch of distant highway. It is interesting how real science can dispel science-fiction, even when people still want to believe the fiction.

3. Orbs: usually in ghost stories, they also appear in UFO accounts. If a person who takes many photos is willing to investigate thoroughly, they can find out that most orbs are out-of-focus reflections. Sometimes the reflection is from dust particles, and those particles can appear to be further away from the camera than they actually are. Some relections are from windows, drinking gl***es, eye gl***es, or other reflective objects. A sure sign that an orb is a reflection is that the orb is moving across the screen at some % proportional rate to the rate of the camera moving across the scene. Another sign is that the orb appears within view, and disappears within view. The reflective angle is constantly changing. I have taken many pictures in dark environments (such as caves) and seen orbs, and most caves are not said to be haunted.

4. Crop Circles: Aside from the fact that people have actually come forward with admittance to creating a hoax, crop circles appear to legitimize the idea of alien intelligence. It is one thing to photoshoot a fuzzy object. It is quite another to report a clear picture of something readily observed by eyewitnesses, among whom are skeptics. The fact is that not one person has reported observing a paranormal creation of crop circles, even though there has been reports and pictures of literally thousands of them. All reports are after-the-fact. Not one observation of a crop circle in progress. Call me a skeptic, but I am not a believer in any paranormal source of crop circles at this point. Again, how well the story is told is what makes the difference.

This is not by any means exhaustive. One could spend years of leisure time studying evidences. People usually believe either what they want to believe, or what they have to believe. In actuality, there are some UFO pictures and videos that are not easily explainable. The fact that you are observing a scene of something that was recorded at a different time and place than you are when you observe the recording, should tell you that almost any interpretation you come up with is going to be outside of context. And we should know very well how deceptive something taken out of context can be.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by tdidymas

Don't know if this is a subject that people want to talk about, it looks like there was only 1 day of discussion. .

I'm trying to get some interest in other topics going.
Im not a Mormon, and have zero interest in most Mormon-related topics, and so its slim pickings around here for guys like me.

Im very grateful for someone stopping by and dropping a post into this small conversation

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by tdidymas

saw all the Star Trek series including the original, next gen, deep space, and voyager,

I own a Bat'leth....http://daqotahforge.tripod.com/klingonblades/id71.html

[tdidymas]

Sorry, I'm not much into Klingon culture. I only mentioned Star Trek as a backdrop of my interest in Science Fiction. So far I only own 1 season of the original series (on Blue Ray). Most else I have are recorded from TV, or DVD purchases like Dune and Forbidden Planet.

In my original post I forgot to mention that I had actually seen some UFOs back in '85. I wasn't looking for them, it was quite by accident. I can still describe them in detail if you are interested. I regret I didn't have a camera at the time, or even binoculars. For any skeptic who might see this post, I am an engineer and a scientist, and I used the standard process of elimination of every possibility of it being something known, such as aircraft, etc. I (and the person I was with) simply had to deem it "unknown." Like I said before, night vision can be illusory.

[alanmolstad]

when any person goes out under the stars for a few hours, there is every chance in the world that they will see something that they dont understand.

Men have been sitting around camp fires for millions of years looking up at the stars and noticing that every once in a while something new happens, or something different that they simply do not understand the reason for.

I once saw a trail of a falling star that glowed in the night sky for a long time.
I never saw the falling star itself, but I did see the trail left and it was weird.

Now I can see how had another person seen the same star trail in the sky that i did, and didnt understand what caused it, how ideas such as "An angel fell from heaven" might get started.

The lack of correct information leads our imaginations to invent answers that fit the circumstances.
So a falling chunk of rock into the atmosphere becomes an angel that has been cast out of heaven.
The same inventive mind that came up with the "Falling Angel" idea can also come up with a back-story to support this idea...and soon a whole new myth is being told around the campfires.

[pilgrim1411]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

nope....

all the stories are lies, or are just dreams that got people mixed up...
But mostly the photos are fake and the stories are lies.

Have you ever examined the data and testimonies? Why such a hasty generalization? I totally disagree with your claim.

[tdidymas]

Originally Posted by pilgrim1411

Have you ever examined the data and testimonies? Why such a hasty generalization? I totally disagree with your claim.

pilgrim, I agree, it was a hasty generalization. I have looked at the sky many nights in my life, and never saw anything I could not explain with this one exception. Like I said before, if anyone is interested, I could give a full description of what I saw. Too bad I cannot attach a drawing.
TD

[pilgrim1411]

I saw a UFO in 1991, and many people have looked to the sky and have seen UFO's. Most recently, study the Arizona Lights phenomenon. Study the Betty and Barney Hill incident and the Travis Walton abduction. I take the position that this whole thing is connected to the demonic.

[alanmolstad]

nope....not Satan...Not little green men...just a lie.

The only so-called proof of spacemen being behind the UFOs are just stories..

Well. stories are fun to tell around the campfire, but if we are looking at this from the scientific point of view all we can say is that there is no real proof of a single UFO being a space man from mars..

No proof.....ever.

Juts a campfire story and a fuzzy photo.

[pilgrim1411]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

nope....not Satan...Not little green men...just a lie.

The only so-called proof of spacemen being behind the UFOs are just stories..

Well. stories are fun to tell around the campfire, but if we are looking at this from the scientific point of view all we can say is that there is no real proof of a single UFO being a space man from mars..

No proof.....ever.

Juts a campfire story and a fuzzy photo.

Obviously you have not studied the data or had access to government archives. Contact nuclear physicist Stanton Freedman. He can supply you with tons of data and evidence you have never seen.

It is a mental prison to be closed minded.

[pilgrim1411]

From Stanton Freedman's website:

As a nuclear physicist who has had a serious interest in flying saucers since 1958, I have reached four major conclusions:

1. The evidence is overwhelming that Planet Earth is being visited by intelligently controlled extraterrestrial spacecraft. In other words, SOME UFOs are alien spacecraft. Most are not.

2. The subject of flying saucers represents a kind of Cosmic Watergate, meaning that some few people in major governments have known since July, 1947, when two crashed saucers and several alien bodies were recovered in New Mexico, that indeed SOME UFOs are ET. As noted in 1950, it’s the most cl***ified U.S. topic.

3. None of the arguments made against conclusions One and Two by a small group of debunkers such as Carl Sagan, my University of Chicago cl***mate for three years, can stand up to careful scrutiny.

4. The Flying Saucer story is the biggest story of the millennium: visits to Planet Earth by aliens and the U.S. government’s cover-up of the best data (the bodies and wreckage) for over fifty years.

Since 1967 I have lectured on the subject “Flying Saucers ARE Real” at more than 600 colleges and over 100 professional groups in all fifty US states, nine Canadian Provinces, twelve cities in England and nine in other countries, with only eleven hecklers. I have also appeared on hundreds of radio and TV shows. Overall, I have probably answered about 35,000 questions about UFOs and secrecy.

It’s clear that over 97% of the people have NOT read any of the five major scientific studies I discuss, and are unaware of the mountains of evidence that support my conclusions. They are also unaware of the scientific data, as opposed to tabloid nonsense. However, it is also clear from the Opinion Polls and from my own experience that indeed most people accept the notion that SOME UFOs are alien spacecraft. The greater the education, the MORE likely an individual is to accept this proposition. In an October 25, 1995, Oxford University Debate on the resolution “Planet Earth is being visited by intelligent extraterrestrial life,” the affirmative side, of which I was a part, garnered 60% of Debate Union Member votes on the question. Ninety-two percent of 100,000 people calling during a TV Debate in London on June 27, 1997, said Earth has been visited by aliens!

The problem is NOT that there is not enough evidence to justify my conclusions; but that most people, especially the noisy negativists, are unaware of the real, non-tabloid evidence.

Debunkers seem to employ four major rules:

1. What the public doesn’t know, we certainly won’t tell them. The largest official USAF UFO study isn’t even mentioned in twelve anti-UFO books, though every one of those books’ authors was aware of it.

2. Don’t bother me with the facts, my mind is made up.

3. If one can’t attack the data, attack the people. It is easier.

4. Do one’s research by proclamation rather than investigation. It is much easier, and nobody will know the difference anyway.

Many major media people will concede that if indeed aliens are visiting earth, that would be a major story. But because they take great pride in their KNOWLEDGE of major stories, if this were happening they would know about it. But they don’t. Therefore, anybody who says visits are real must be a crackpot.

I have noted four major reasons why the big names in science and journalism haven’t jumped on the pro-UFO bandwagon:

1. Ignorance of the data. Scratch a debunker and one usually finds somebody who is putting down what he is not up on.

2. Fear of ridicule in sponsoring a thesis (only about ten have been submitted relating to UFOs) if a professor, or sponsoring a detailed reportorial investigation if an editor. I check all my audiences and find that, while in agreement with polls, 10% have had a sighting but only 5-10% of these witnesses have been willing to report what they saw. Biggest reason? Fear of ridicule.

3. Ego. If aliens were visiting Earth, they would call a press conference or ask to talk to the National Academy of Sciences. They haven’t, so aliens must not be visiting. Flying saucers finish the *** Copernicus started in taking man out of the middle of the universe. Priests fought Copernicus’s ideas. Today guys in lab coats, rather than priestly robes, fight alien visitations.

4. Failure to use our knowledge of technology to understand UFO behavior. They say “It is impossible,” rather than “I don’t know how.” Despite the absurd claims of certain ancient academics and fossilized physicists, it is clear on the basis of solid engineering studies that trips to nearby stars are feasible with round trip times shorter than the average person’s lifetime — using, for example, staged fission and fusion propulsion systems. I have worked on both. It’s clear that technological progress comes from doing things differently in an unpredictable way. The history of science is littered with challenges, leveled by people who know nothing about the *** at hand, against traditionally “impossible” claims.

The cult of S.E.T.I. (Silly Effort To Investigate) with its crazy notions that nobody would travel — but that aliens, stuck at the level of radio, are trying to attract our attention — mocks the notion of flying saucers, not by dealing with the evidence, but by proclamations about the ABSENCE of evidence. This ignores science.

I prove at every lecture that the NSA and CIA are withholding UFO data. Having worked under security for fourteen years, visited seventeen document archives, and having become aware of the huge black budgets of the NSA, NRO, CIA, DIA, etc., I know how easy it is to keep secrets. My nineteen years of study about crashed saucers, and thirteen years on the Majestic-12 documents have convinced me these are real. The challenge for us all, as we enter the new millennium, is to recognize that while our future is in space, we are not alone. I truly hope we qualify for admission to the Cosmic Kindergarten.

Stanton Friedman

[pilgrim1411]

Billy Cooper, who was murdered, worked for naval intelligence for I think 18 years. He saw a craft fly into the ocean waters when he was on a ship. He was ordered never to tell anyone. Read his book:

BEHOLD A PALE HORSE.

This book is the number 1 stolen book from book stores in New York city.

[Columcille]

Originally Posted by pilgrim1411

Billy Cooper, who was murdered, worked for naval intelligence for I think 18 years. He saw a craft fly into the ocean waters when he was on a ship. He was ordered never to tell anyone. Read his book:

BEHOLD A PALE HORSE.

This book is the number 1 stolen book from book stores in New York city.

You seem to be repeating the same M.O. of either linking or referencing a work without specific commentary. The post earlier is not something I would flag the administration about in violation of rule 6 (Filling up the board with large amounts of pasted material (this includes large pictures)) because I have seen a lot larger amounts posted where the violation caused the copy and paste to be administratively edited to zero.
However, your lack of personal commentary reveals nothing to me in regards to how well you have digested the information and articulate it in your own words.

I just want you to personally grow in defending your faith. It is good to read lots of books, you may gain a lot of personal knowledge by photosynthesis in a figurative sense. There comes a time though where you develop your own voice and your conviction while agreeing with many others, is articulated as your own conviction and not someone else whom you may have some disagreements with in other areas.

[alanmolstad]

nope guys....its all just a bunch of scary campfire stories and fuzzy photos.....

Not squat for real proof!

Just a fun story to tell,,,perhaps a bit spooky, perhaps feeding into the anti-government feelings of some who were tempted to believe any story anyway.....

But as for any real proof?.....zip, nothing, zero......

No one has ever stood up and held something in his hands and said, "This could not have been made by our civilization"....

nope...

So this means that if you are one of them people that really have a deep personal need to believe no matter what, then you will have to satisfy yourself with your proof being just a bunch of stories to tell around the camp fire.

because that's all you got....

[tdidymas]

Pilgrim, I read up on the abduction stories you cited. As typical of those type stories, there is much conflict in both evidence and testimony. I believe that several different explanations are possible, even if not likely - conspiracy of lies (hoax), hallucination, demonization, or something else. From my view, the Walton story appears more hoaxy, whereas the Hill story appears more hallucinatory. Like I said before, it's in the way the story is told.

I also saw the series on the Arizona Lights, and although the report appears fairly objective, it will take much more than the evidence presented there to convince me of any possibility of it being a paranormal or extraterrestrial event. I am skeptical of such things like this, and tend to believe them to be unexplainable, but natural occurances.
TD

[pilgrim1411]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

nope guys....its all just a bunch of scary campfire stories and fuzzy photos.....

Not squat for real proof!

Just a fun story to tell,,,perhaps a bit spooky, perhaps feeding into the anti-government feelings of some who were tempted to believe any story anyway.....

But as for any real proof?.....zip, nothing, zero......

No one has ever stood up and held something in his hands and said, "This could not have been made by our civilization"....

nope...

So this means that if you are one of them people that really have a deep personal need to believe no matter what, then you will have to satisfy yourself with your proof being just a bunch of stories to tell around the camp fire.

because that's all you got....

I know what I witnessed, and I know what the data says. I don't draw conclusions prior to examination. You shouldn't either. When Walter debated Madalyn Murray O'Hair, he told her that a lawyer is always willing to look at the evidence. That is my advice to you. Also, Walter believed in UFO's. He saw one once. I used to have his c***ette "UFO's: Friend, Foe or Fantasy."

[pilgrim1411]

I do believe the UFO phenomena is demonic.

[alanmolstad]

again....on any given night the average person can go out at night, look up at the stars, and see things they just don't understand.

men have looked at funny odd things in the night sky for millions of years.

But it always turns out to be just nothing...but even a little bit of uncertainty in the mind of an amateur can be more than enough to feed an active imagination.

A falling star becomes a angel sent from heaven to earth...

A weather balloon becomes a visitor from Mars.

A reflection in a car window becomes absolute proof of extraterrestrials...


But is that any real proof?....no.
There has never been even the slightest offering of real proof.

All the UFO nuts have are stories...and fuzz photos.

Its the same for the nuts that believe in Bigfoot....(great stories and fuzzy photos)

and its the same for the nuts that believe in the Loch Ness monster ....

all they ever got is some great stories to tell around the campfire while you sip peppermint schnapps.....and fuzzy photos...