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Thread: The Calvinist-Arminian debate

  1. #1
    alanmolstad
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    Default The Calvinist-Arminian debate

    The The Calvinist-Arminian debate is academic.

    it is a debate between two views that both have a lot of bible support.

    it is a debate that takes up a lot of time within the christian church.

    its also a pointless debate, that is endless, and most importantly....it gives no one comfort.

    Even the person who believes they have won the debate has no comfort for his effort.

    The life of the believer is not made more easy by the victory, nor has the life of the loser of this debate had their life made different in even the slightest ways...

    that makes this a purely academic effort.

  2. #2
    alanmolstad
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    Back 25 years ago I had to study this academic debate in my Bible School cl***.
    I even had to stand before my teacher and give my report of the debate and offer my views on it.

    The results of my looking into this debate left me with 2 very interesting opinions.

    #1 - Both sides have strong support within the text of the Bible, as well as having a lot of good reasoning behind their argument.

    #2 - its moot....a pointless matter as even if one side is correct and the other in error, Nothing Changes!

    There is not one slightest thing about my life that will ever be effected by my learning that one side of this debate was correct.
    I dont have to do anything, change anything, fix anything...
    This means that this question has so little impact on the average life of a Christian that it can only be said to me "moot" compared to other things that if they changed I would have to alter a monster amount of things in my life....

  3. #3
    alanmolstad
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    Both the Calvinist side of this debate as well as the Arminian side sit at the far ends of the fringe.

    They both have views that have many good points.

    I find myself supporting many things each side brings up.

    and yet, both sides take the issue too far.
    Both sides go over the edge and have some ideas that are in error.

  4. #4
    alanmolstad
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    while some part of Calvinism are nice , and I believe they are true,,,other parts are insane......

  5. #5
    alanmolstad
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    in the end.....

    In the end I don't find anything wrong at all with taking a few things from one side, along with one or two from the other side, and holding them up as the better way to look at some issues...

  6. #6
    alanmolstad
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    I think that basic problem is that we have to have two different points of view in our minds to see each side of this issue....

    we have to look at the question of how we are saved from both our limited point of view.....

    and then at the same time...

    Look at the same things with a point of view of the eternal all-knowing, god....

  7. #7
    alanmolstad
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    from our human and limited point of view, we dont know who is saved or not?

    We have to go out into the world and spread the WORD to all people.
    We have to offer to all the message that is give us to spread.

    We have to have the mind-set that all men can be saved.
    that there is no list of people that will be saved and no final list of who will be lost.

    We have to preach our message well, and help people decide for themselves to believe.

    We have to hold that each person all on their own, can find God....that they can do this...that it's not hard...that they can do this and have as much opportunity to be saved as any other person on earth....


    We have to take the position that the future is not set...that none of us knows who will be saved., and that we have to stay busy all the time to spread the Word....

  8. #8
    dfoJC
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    You seem mighty lonely over here Alan! Thought I would join in.

    You know, I have heard of Calvinism and Armenianism, but I never really studied either of them, no Bible School here, just me, the Spirit and the bible.

    I always thought it funny that the Mormons spout Calvinism more than the Christians! The once saved always saved, election and all of that.

    I suppose if I took the time to study all of this I would be a lot like you, accepting some, rejecting others, hopefully basing my decisions on what the Word says.

    Your last post though is exactly how I think. We have a *** to do, that is to love others and present the Gospel. Leave the results up to God. It is not complicated, it is simple, but alas, it is not always easy.

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts here. I find encouragement in what you say, and I thank you for that.

    dfoJC

  9. #9
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by dfoJC View Post
    You seem mighty lonely over here Alan! Thought I would join in.
    you know...I should just post a bunch of topics and see if along the line I find one that even a few Mormons think is worth posting on even if it has ZERO to do with attacking/defending Mormonism....

  10. #10
    alanmolstad
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    Can Man repent?


    yes...

    if man could not repent, if we were not able to repent on our own, then we would not be asked to repent!

    and we are asked to repent,

    so this means we can repent....

  11. #11
    alanmolstad
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    We are instructed to "Come" to the Lord that we might be saved.
    In the act of calling us to "come" to himself God is showing us that we have the ability to do this.

    the word "Come" means we to get up and go someplace.
    You therefore have the ability to take the initiative and move to God.

    Christ stands at the door of the heart and knocks.

    If we are unable to open the door on our own?...there would be no point in His knocking....

    We and we alone are the ones who are called to open the door and let god into our hearts.

    If we were unable to do this, we would not hear that knock...

  12. #12
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    We are instructed to "Come" to the Lord that we might be saved.
    In the act of calling us to "come" to himself God is showing us that we have the ability to do this.
    .
    Can someone who is spiritually dead come to Christ?

  13. #13
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Can someone who is spiritually dead come to Christ?
    Yes.....if the person was unable to come to Christ, they would not be asked to...

    We read that men are called to come to Christ, therefore they can come to Him.

    There would be no point in calling men to do something they were unable to do so.
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 05-30-2011 at 05:46 AM.

  14. #14
    alanmolstad
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    Its like....
    Its like I said before when i talked about the human point of view when dealing with this Calvinist-Arminian debate.
    Unless you keep in mind whatever point of view you have at the time,you will get mixed up.

    The moment you try to ask questions from God's point of view, and try to answer them from man's point of view your answers will always appear wrong.

    The same is true for the reverse.

    Now, from "our" human, (And therefore limited) point of view there is no set list of people to be saved or lost.
    All have the very same opportunity to repent and be saved.
    All have the same danger of hell's flame if they turn away.

    There is no list of names of the saved before hand.

    No one knows who will be saved or lost, its all left up to the actions of the Word though the Body of Christ to save they whomever will hear and respond.


    So the Christian Church is sent out in the Great Commission to reach the whole world with the message of Christ.
    The church reaches out with the Word to the lost world.

    The church must "teach" the lost world about Christ.
    If the lost had no ability to learn, there would be no point in sending us out to teach anyone.


    Its sorta like being asked to "repent and believe"

    We all are clearly asked to repent and believe.
    What would be the point in asking people to do something they were physicaly unable to do?......there would be none.

    The Lord never asks man to do things that man is unable to do.
    If the Lord were to ever ask us to do something we could not do it would make the Lord look crazy.

    It would be silly for God to demand that men grow wings on their heels and fly up to the sky as the only means to be saved.
    It would be silly to ask man to do that because we are physically unable to do that.

    So God does not ask us to grow wings like that.

  15. #15
    alanmolstad
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    Man has free will.
    Our free will give us the ability to love.
    The down side is that free will means we can be held responsible for our actions.....getting the credit or the blame is the result of being a creature with free will.

    We could not love without free will.
    But we also could not do evil without free will.



    As long as a person has free will they can answer the calling that goes out to all men to repent and believe.
    Free will is the key thing in this.

    Unless a person has free will they cant be expected to listen to the call to come to Christ.
    An example would be my cat.

    My cat does not really have free will, or if it does it is of such a limited range that it has no ability to sin or do what is right.
    No free will, means my cat mostly acts on the natural instinct.

    This means in a very real way i cant really blame the cat for doing things that cats do.
    I may not like the fact that my cats hunts all day in the tall gr*** in the backyard, but that's what cats do.
    Talking to my cat will not make any difference....a cats going to do what a cats going to do.

    Limited free will means limited ability to be held responsible for one's actions.

    On the other hand, man is held to a huge Mother of an accounting of our actions, to the point if we are found guilty we spend "forever" in a burning hell of fire.

    Now you don't send people to a forever of a burning hell of fire unless they had it coming.
    You don't send them there forever unless they were 100% to blame for their own actions.

    If there was even the slightest hint that the person was not fully responsible for their own actions, then sending them to hell would be out of the question.

    If there was even the slightest hint that the person was some how predestined to be unable to respond, then God would be a moron to be sending people to hell that never had a chance to believe in the first place.

    This is why we know we have free will, and that we are responsible to answer the calling that we hear, and that every man that has ever been born is asked to turn to the 'light" they receive and if they do so they will find God.
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 05-30-2011 at 05:52 AM.

  16. #16
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    There would be no point in calling men to do something they were unable to do so.
    Can men obey the commandments?

  17. #17
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Can men obey the commandments?

    There would be ZERO point in asking my cat to obey the Commandments...

    But we are asked to obey...

    You only ask people to do things you know they can do.
    God NEVER asks me to do something I am unable to do....(God is not a moron)


    If I were ever asked to do something I was physically or mentally unable to do, and I failed at it, I could never be found at fault for my failure.
    If I were asked to grow wings out of my heals and fly into the sky I would fail.
    Im unable to do what was asked of me.
    But I would not be responsible for my failing to do that because there was never any chance i could do that....I am physically unable to grow wings out of my heels.

    The same is true if you ask me to do something Im mentally unable to do.

    I could never be asked to remember every word I have ever spoken because my brain simply cant do that.
    Im mentally unable to do what is requested.

    Being unable to do something means I will always fail at it if asked.

    But it also means I cant be held responsible for my failing.
    In fact, there would be a stronger case that the person who asked me to do something I did not have the capacity to do would be really at fault for my failing.

    Thus the wisdom in only asking me to do things I have the capacity to do.
    and the wisdom in only holding me responsible for failing to do things I could be expected to do.

    If God asks me do do something, He better make sure I can do it first, or else he is going to come off looking like a weirdo.
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 05-30-2011 at 06:24 AM.

  18. #18
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post

    You only ask people to do things you know they can do.
    God NEVER asks me to do something I am unable to do....(God is not a moron)
    So you could lead a perfect life like Jesus and obey all of the commandants since you have free will. Correct?

  19. #19
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    So you could lead a perfect life like Jesus and obey all of the commandants since you have free will. Correct?
    There is NO point in asking people to do things ("be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect") if the person you request this of is totally unable to do what you are asking.

    You could NEVER ask humans to fly with wings because ...well...God didnt give us wings.

    Now if God had designed humans with wings "THEN" we could be asked, AND EXPECTED to fly when asked to fly...
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 05-30-2011 at 06:38 AM.

  20. #20
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    There is NO point in asking people to do things ("be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect") if the person you request this of is totally unable to do what you are asking.
    So then you would agree that a person is capable of keeping all of the commandments and living a perfect life like Jesus?

  21. #21
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    So then you would agree that a person is capable of keeping all of the commandments and living a perfect life like Jesus?
    Didnt you just ask this question?.....I guess I could copy/paste my answer again too.....?

  22. #22
    alanmolstad
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    one more time...



    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post



    There is NO point in asking people to do things ("be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect") if the person you request this of is totally unable to do what you are asking.

    You could NEVER ask humans to fly with wings because ...well...God didnt give us wings.

    Now if God had designed humans with wings "THEN" we could be asked, AND EXPECTED to fly when asked to fly...

  23. #23
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Didnt you just ask this question?
    So then you would agree that a person is capable of keeping all of the commandments and living a perfect life like Jesus?

    Is that a yes or no?

  24. #24
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    So then you would agree that a person is capable of keeping all of the commandments and living a perfect life like Jesus?
    You love to ask the same question over and over it seems...

    Well, Sword might play that game ,,,I dont.....

  25. #25
    Billyray
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    Since you admit that it is possible to live a perfect life exactly like Jesus, how many have lived a perfect life thus not requiring the atonement for their salvation?

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