Intermediate State/Purgatory

[Columcille]

The current subject is dealing with the "intermediate state," specifically in dealing with the Western Catholic conception of "purgatory." I wanted to express this doctrine in terms of my own Eastern Catholic/Orthodox understanding rather than through the Scholasticism of Catholicism. "Intermediate State" is a reference of the soul between just after death of the body and the eventual resurrection of our bodies either to eternal ****ation or eternal life.

There are four points I should like to discuss. Instead of answering all four points at one time, I should like to discuss each point seperately until there is closure to move on. Even if we do not agree, I should at least like it to be understood.

1) God is light.

2) To the unrighteous and the righteous alike, this light of God is felt.
2i--to the unrighteous, this light exposes the darkness of their hearts and torments them.
2ii--to the righteous, this light is embraced.

3) A) Sin has two consequences and B) good works only have one consequence.
3Ai--Sin seperates us spiritually from God by virtue of God's holiness.
3Aii--Sin's temporal consequences are felt by others and builds bad character traits.
3Bi--The temporal (positive) consequences of good works is that it builds character and connects us one to another.
3Bii--Good works is not salvaic. Only Christ's sacrifice at Calvary repairs the spiritual relationship to unify us back to God.

4) With death of the righteous, the flesh no longer is tempted.
4i--however, the Soul's character traits that were built on both the indwelling of the Spirit in the performance of good works remains and our temporal works of iniquity with its impurities in the soul must be purged by the fire of God's light.
4ii--this purging in Western Catholics is called the state of "purgatory."
4iii--To the Eastern Catholic/Orthodox, this is an unnecessary cl***ification since we all return to God.


Again, I hope to move from point to point in the discussion so we can find closure or at least an understanding.

[Columcille]

I was hoping for Dmarie to respond. If you agree with point one, we can move to point two. If you agree with point 2, we will move to point 3. If you agree with point three, then we will talk about point 4.

I just don't see it necessary for me to start talking about point 1, unless there is a point of contention. It would clutter up this particular topical thread. Please let me know if you agree with all points, if you do--then there is really nothing to discuss on purgatory as a stand alone tenet. If there is a topic which purgatory connects to, i.e. the idea of "indulgences" or praying for the dead, this is not the thread to discuss it. I would create a new thread and give you my Eastern Catholic/Orthodox perspective on it and attempt to show the semantical aspects as they are in agreement. The only point of this thread is to express what "purgatory" is and how it relates to the Eastern Catholic/Orthodox perspective.

[Dmarie]

Originally Posted by Columcille

The current subject is dealing with the "intermediate state," specifically in dealing with the Western Catholic conception of "purgatory." I wanted to express this doctrine in terms of my own Eastern Catholic/Orthodox understanding rather than through the Scholasticism of Catholicism. "Intermediate State" is a reference of the soul between just after death of the body and the eventual resurrection of our bodies either to eternal ****ation or eternal life.

There are four points I should like to discuss. Instead of answering all four points at one time, I should like to discuss each point seperately until there is closure to move on. Even if we do not agree, I should at least like it to be understood.

1) God is light.

2) To the unrighteous and the righteous alike, this light of God is felt.
2i--to the unrighteous, this light exposes the darkness of their hearts and torments them.
2ii--to the righteous, this light is embraced.

3) A) Sin has two consequences and B) good works only have one consequence.
3Ai--Sin seperates us spiritually from God by virtue of God's holiness.
3Aii--Sin's temporal consequences are felt by others and builds bad character traits.
3Bi--The temporal (positive) consequences of good works is that it builds character and connects us one to another.
3Bii--Good works is not salvaic. Only Christ's sacrifice at Calvary repairs the spiritual relationship to unify us back to God.

4) With death of the righteous, the flesh no longer is tempted.
4i--however, the Soul's character traits that were built on both the indwelling of the Spirit in the performance of good works remains and our temporal works of iniquity with its impurities in the soul must be purged by the fire of God's light.
4ii--this purging in Western Catholics is called the state of "purgatory."
4iii--To the Eastern Catholic/Orthodox, this is an unnecessary cl***ification since we all return to God.


Again, I hope to move from point to point in the discussion so we can find closure or at least an understanding.

Greetings & Blessings Columcille.

I have to remember when addressing, that there is a schism of sorts within the "One Holy Church" (Catholicism)...Western (RCC) vs. Eastern.

Can you please further explain-- 3,(B)..."good works only have one consequence".

Blessings...Dmarie

[Columcille]

Originally Posted by Dmarie

Greetings & Blessings Columcille.

I have to remember when addressing, that there is a schism of sorts within the "One Holy Church" (Catholicism)...Western (RCC) vs. Eastern.

Can you please further explain-- 3,(B)..."good works only have one consequence".

Blessings...Dmarie

Dmarie, pick any particular good work as an example. Let us say you feed a hungry person. That is a good work. It pleases God, but this does not save a person. The consequence of this work (which is positive) is that the person you feed is no longer hungry due to the charity provided and the thanksgiving they may give to God for His provision through you. The work has brought you (the good stewart of God's gifts) and the hungry individual (who may offer God a sacrifice of praise or thanksgiving) closer together in mutual love. Even if the person is reprobate and recieves your charity, done in the name of Christ there is glory to God still by your humility in serving others. This is the one consequence. It is a temporal consequence, there is no spiritual consequence in terms of being united to God, as Christ paid this on the cross for us. Christ's sacrifice is not an example, even though it is exemplary, but His sacrifice was made on our behalf because we could never pay that sort of debt due to our human condition.

[Dmarie]

Originally Posted by Columcille

Dmarie, pick any particular good work as an example. Let us say you feed a hungry person. That is a good work. It pleases God, but this does not save a person. The consequence of this work (which is positive) is that the person you feed is no longer hungry due to the charity provided and the thanksgiving they may give to God for His provision through you. The work has brought you (the good stewart of God's gifts) and the hungry individual (who may offer God a sacrifice of praise or thanksgiving) closer together in mutual love. Even if the person is reprobate and recieves your charity, done in the name of Christ there is glory to God still by your humility in serving others. This is the one consequence. It is a temporal consequence, there is no spiritual consequence in terms of being united to God, as Christ paid this on the cross for us. Christ's sacrifice is not an example, even though it is exemplary, but His sacrifice was made on our behalf because we could never pay that sort of debt due to our human condition.

Greetings.

Your explantation is understood, and I see where you are leading with this.

You are speaking of these "good works" as a meritorius
means,...an added grace...towards one's own, (or another's), purification and..."final cleansing." This is self-atonement, and this is not relying on the sufficiency of Christ. He paid the price...in FULL, and it is as you say Columcille, "...His sacrifice was made on our behalf because we could never pay that sort of debt due to our human condition." "By one sacrifice He has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." What further purifying or purging is needed? Our standing is "made perfect" and sealed in Christ. We are "being made holy", that is our sanctification.

What do you think Christ means when He says...

"I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do." (John 17:4)

"The blood of Jesus, His Son, purifies us from all sin." (IJohn 1:7)

"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." (Romans 8:1)

What more can we add to our Savior's "finished"work...NOTHING.

I guess I've said to much again, but I cannot follow your lead on this. You are tieing "points" of TRUTHS with "Shades" of Truth. I know you do not understand it this way, but ...Scripture clearly says otherwise.
*The doctrine of Purgatory is a Tradition, born out of the Middle Ages, and it is not of the Scriptures. It is an outright affront to the sufficiency and completed work of Christ.

Blessings...Dmarie

[Columcille]

Originally Posted by Dmarie

Greetings.

Your explantation is understood, and I see where you are leading with this.

You are speaking of these "good works" as a meritorius
means,...an added grace...towards one's own, (or another's), purification and..."final cleansing." This is self-atonement, and this is not relying on the sufficiency of Christ. He paid the price...in FULL, and it is as you say Columcille, "...His sacrifice was made on our behalf because we could never pay that sort of debt due to our human condition." "By one sacrifice He has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." What further purifying or purging is needed? Our standing is "made perfect" and sealed in Christ. We are "being made holy", that is our sanctification.

What do you think Christ means when He says...

"I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do." (John 17:4)

"The blood of Jesus, His Son, purifies us from all sin." (IJohn 1:7)

"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." (Romans 8:1)



Blessings...Dmarie

I am answering your question below that I made bold, Italics, and underlined in your quote:

The purification of us from the blood of Jesus, the finishing work on the cross, was a spiritual cleansing not a temporal one. Perhaps I should change the wording a little between "spiritual" and "temporal." When I say "temporal" it is regarding something that is temporary and is related to things as they affect our character. Think of the "spiritual" as more like the "holy of holies" in the temple. God resides in us in that innermost sanctuary, but people still come into the outergate and not all can enter into the Levitical inner chambers. If "It is Finished" for our cleansing, why do we still sin as Christians? The cleansing therefore is a more lasting eternal quality (spiritual in nature for God is spirit) by which we are accepted because Christ is our spiritual "scapegoat." This does not change the fact that we still commit sins in this mortal flesh, that there are character traits that are impure due to the habits of a person's choices and experiences.


Not related to your question, but as a matter to ponder in relating to me:


For me, you cloud the whole discussion by adding words that are not layman in nature. Why bog the discussion down with Western terms? I am Eastern Catholic, I like the mysteries as they present themselves and not worrying about disecting them and seeing how they opperate. I don't have to know that there are billions of atoms in a chair to comfortably sit in one. It is the same with the mysteries of God. He is holy, we are not; yet he calls us to be holy, but it is through Him we become so. Can the mind comprehend this? I think only the heart understands this when experiencing God's vibrant presence when it is open to receive in loving submission.

I underlined the question so you can answer it. Try not to load the answer with 10 cent coined Western terminology. Speak as a lay person so I can understand you better. You get confused with the points in the OP because you try to throw in Catholicism's Scholastic terminology. Remember, I am here trying to present an Eastern Catholic view of "purgatory," which I think is an unnecessary term.

[Dmarie]

Originally Posted by Columcille

I am answering your question below that I made bold, Italics, and underlined in your quote:

The purification of us from the blood of Jesus, the finishing work on the cross, was a spiritual cleansing not a temporal one. Perhaps I should change the wording a little between "spiritual" and "temporal." When I say "temporal" it is regarding something that is temporary and is related to things as they affect our character. Think of the "spiritual" as more like the "holy of holies" in the temple. God resides in us in that innermost sanctuary, but people still come into the outergate and not all can enter into the Levitical inner chambers.

Hello Columcille.
Oh, YES WE CAN. The veil was "torn" so that we may now enter the "holy of holies" because of Christ's sacrifice. He was the "propitiation" for our sins...all of them..., and because of this, He has made the way for us that we may now enter the holy of holies.
"Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holoiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, and having a High Priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full ***urance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from and evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful."



If "It is Finished" for our cleansing, why do we still sin as Christians? The cleansing therefore is a more lasting eternal quality (spiritual in nature for God is spirit) by which we are accepted because Christ is our spiritual "scapegoat." This does not change the fact that we still commit sins in this mortal flesh, that there are character traits that are impure due to the habits of a person's choices and experiences.

YES, "It is Finished" for our cleansing from all our sins,..."For by one offering He has PERFECTED FOREVER those who are BEING SANCTIFIED." We are now [b][i]Perfect in our STANDING with God,..."In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise." Yes, we still sin, but as the Scriptures go on to clearly say that we are continuing "being sanctified." In Christ, we are saved, and NOT will be saved. We are forever sealed to Him, and it is out of this graditude for His gift of salvation that we live our lives...our good works, being a product of our obedience and thanksgiving to Him.


Not related to your question, but as a matter to ponder in relating to me:


For me, you cloud the whole discussion by adding words that are not layman in nature. Why bog the discussion down with Western terms? I am Eastern Catholic, I like the mysteries as they present themselves and not worrying about disecting them and seeing how they opperate. I don't have to know that there are billions of atoms in a chair to comfortably sit in one. It is the same with the mysteries of God. He is holy, we are not; yet he calls us to be holy, but it is through Him we become so. Can the mind comprehend this? I think only the heart understands this when experiencing God's vibrant presence when it is open to receive in loving submission.

Is this not a CATHOLIC forum? Please forgive me if I "cloud" the terminologies for you between the "WEST" and "EAST"-it is not my intention to "cloud", but to clarify...using the Scriptures. Oh, the web of Catholicism!

I underlined the question so you can answer it. Try not to load the answer with 10 cent coined Western terminology. Speak as a lay person so I can understand you better. You get confused with the points in the OP because you try to throw in Catholicism's Scholastic terminology. Remember, I am here trying to present an Eastern Catholic view of "purgatory," which I think is an unnecessary term.

**Columcille, I do prayerfully consider my answers, and they are provided with what the Scriptures have to say, and I do not base them on my loaded usage of "...10 cent coined Western terminology."
BTW, I thought you Were concerned about "bisecting." the "process" of this "Intermediate State." Is this not the reasoning for you listing all your "points"?---to "bisect" this "process", one point at a time?

Blessings...Dmarie

[Columcille]

Originally Posted by Dmarie

**Columcille, I do prayerfully consider my answers, and they are provided with what the Scriptures have to say, and I do not base them on my loaded usage of "...10 cent coined Western terminology."
BTW, I thought you Were concerned about "bisecting." the "process" of this "Intermediate State." Is this not the reasoning for you listing all your "points"?---to "bisect" this "process", one point at a time?

Blessings...Dmarie

First of all, there is only one mediator between God and Man and that is Jesus Christ. It He who has entered the Holy of Holies according to Hebrews 9.11-12. "But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption." Second of all, I stated that the Holy of Holies resides in our frame. The Temple had three courts, I believe this symbolizes the body (outer court), soul (inner court), and spirit (with the soul as God's resting place within us). So while Christ sits at the right hand of God, He is in heaven, while we still reside in our earthly frame. This is a mystery. We have confidence to approach Him, to enter into the Holy of Holies by His blood because just prior to the verse you quoted the author of Hebrews quotes the O.T. saying, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them" (Hebrews 10.16). If you recall in the O.T., in the tent where the Holy of Holies presided was the Ark of the Covenant where the Law was placed, along with Manna, and the rod of Aaron. “This is what the Lord has commanded: ‘Take an omer [portion for one man] of manna and keep it for the generations to come, so they can see the bread I gave you to eat in the desert when I brought you out of Egypt.’” (Exodus 16:32) “And the Lord said to Moses, ‘Put back the staff of Aaron before the testimony, to be kept as a sign for the rebels, that you may make an end of their grumblings against me, lest they die.’” (Numbers 17:10) "You shall put the mercy seat on top of the ark, and in the ark you shall put the testimonies I will give you." (Exodus 25.21) This is now no longer the temple made by hands, but has been fulfilled by God residing in our frame.

We have confidence to approach Him, but we are not the High Priest to have made that sacrifice, but he does reside in us.

I have not responded to your questions regarding my points. That was only meant to discuss in bit size bits rather than talking about the whole thing. The point is, you don't seem to be reading my points. I had to bring in Hebrews and the O.T. p***ages to demonstrate a point since you quoted Hebrews 10. You demonstrated that we can enter into the Holy of Holies, which is within our temple. In fact, I stated this very thing

God resides in us in that innermost sanctuary,

You instead focused on the later quote within that sentence, but did not really deal with the issue of sinfulness in our fleshly bodies and our souls, which I again am restating is symbolic of the outer court and inner court repectively. The Holy of Holies is the most sacred place where sin cannot preside. You haven't dealt with the sin issue of the flesh or of the soul, only you focus on the spiritual chamber of the Holy of Holies.

[Columcille]

May not reply until Sunday evening, Army National Guard this week for me.
Don't think I am shirking any response from you.

Ok, I am back. However, my heart is not here as it was before. My wife told me Friday, prior to my leaving for the National Guard, that she wanted to talk to me. She showed me, what I thought was an electronic thermometer, but it was a pregnancy test kit that show two white lines parallel to each other. I asked, "what is this?" and she told me to look at the wrapper. Well... it seems my life is going to radically change with a different kind of rite of p***age.

[Dmarie]

Originally Posted by Columcille

May not reply until Sunday evening, Army National Guard this week for me.
Don't think I am shirking any response from you.

Ok, I am back. However, my heart is not here as it was before. My wife told me Friday, prior to my leaving for the National Guard, that she wanted to talk to me. She showed me, what I thought was an electronic thermometer, but it was a pregnancy test kit that show two white lines parallel to each other. I asked, "what is this?" and she told me to look at the wrapper. Well... it seems my life is going to radically change with a different kind of rite of p***age.

Blessings Columcille...and radical "electronic thermometer" congradulations!
Please know that I will be keeping you, and your family in my prayers.
God's safety, to you my friend.

Blessings...Dmarie

[Columcille]

Originally Posted by Dmarie

Blessings Columcille...and radical "electronic thermometer" congradulations!
Please know that I will be keeping you, and your family in my prayers.
God's safety, to you my friend.

Blessings...Dmarie

Well, it wasn't electronic after all, just looked like in shape to one of the electric thermometers we have. Alright, now back to the ring. I think I heard the bell; put up 'em up!

[Dmarie]

Originally Posted by Columcille

We have confidence to approach Him, but we are not the High Priest to have made that sacrifice, but he does reside in us.

I have not responded to your questions regarding my points. That was only meant to discuss in bit size bits rather than talking about the whole thing. The point is, you don't seem to be reading my points. I had to bring in Hebrews and the O.T. p***ages to demonstrate a point since you quoted Hebrews 10. You demonstrated that we can enter into the Holy of Holies, which is within our temple. In fact, I stated this very thing
You instead focused on the later quote within that sentence, but did not really deal with the issue of sinfulness in our fleshly bodies and our souls, which I again am restating is symbolic of the outer court and inner court repectively. The Holy of Holies is the most sacred place where sin cannot preside. You haven't dealt with the sin issue of the flesh or of the soul, only you focus on the spiritual chamber of the Holy of Holies.

Greetings Columcille and Welcome Back.
Please forgive my delay also. I've attempted to log in several times only to have to log out again.
Well, here we go...so,... you put 'em up!

I focused on the latter part of your quote, because I did not agree with it, and you did say in your first post..."I should like to discuss each point seperately until there is closure to move on." So, if it's still OK, I'd like to point to these 2 specific statements I did not agree with:

1)- [B][I]"...but people still come into the outer gate and not all can enter into the Levitical chambers."

2)- The cleansing therefore is a more lasting eternal quality

*1)- I have ***umed "the people" you are referring to in your first statement, are those in Christ. You were vague on this. If my ***umption is correct,... again, I base my response on the following scripture- (Heb.10:19,20):

If we are in Christ, we are thoroughly cleansed, and we all can "enter into the Holiest." Jesus speaks of us as His "brethren",..."Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh."
When we believe and accept this truth by faith, and as His "brethren", we all "may now enter the Holiest." Jesus, as our High Priest, has "perfected forever", that is, our "standing" or our "position" in, and with Christ...we are now justified. So now being "perfected forever",(this speaks in past tense- it's done, "it is finished."), the Scriptures say this...[B][I]"For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified." (Heb.10:14)

*2)- When we believe and accept Christ and His finished sacrifice for sins, we are thoroughly cleansed of our sins- past, present, and future..."But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God." (Heb.10:12)... "Now, where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin." (Heb.10:18) Jesus "sat down", it's done, "it is finished." We are now in Christ, and we are now new creations in Christ, and we are now in need of sanctification. This ties in with the latter part of Heb.10:14- "those who are being sanctified." That is, we are being made holy. How we think now, how we respond now, how we live our lives now. Yes, as long as we are in these bodies, we will sin, but our sin has been dealt with...on the cross!..."it is finished.", and we now have an Advocate with the Father who has made "a new and living way" for us, so that we are no longer condemed..."There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus..." (Rom.8:1)... "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (IJohn 1:9)

Again, I did answer your questions in regards to the spiritual and the fleshly sins. Please re-read my previous response. You will find the same scriptures, along with these additional ones, but overall, my response is the same, with a little more elaboration...OK, OK, alot more elaboration.

So, why would we need to still go to this Intermediate State Columcille, even after the Scriptures have clearly spoken to the sufficient work of Christ? How can you still figure this?
This is man work, and his adding to Christ's completed work and saying that... it's not finished.

Blessings...Dmarie

[Dmarie]

Greetings.

After having "sat down", is Christ going to have to "stand" back up again, and again, and again...determining, and saying to each soul... OK, you can now leave the "Intermediate-State"? Is this not a total degradation to the sufferings and work of Christ?

"But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God...." (Heb.10:12)

Blessings...Dmarie

[Columcille]

Dmarie, the "intermediate state" is the time between bodily death and bodily resurrection. It is not used interchangably with "purgatory." The term "Intermediate State" is a matter of discussion about what happens to the soul during that time. Hence, our "outer court" has been shed by death. I mainly use the temple structure as a means of allegorizing the nature of the temple, meaning us both individually and collectively based on Paul's stating that we are God's temple. As I have already mentioned in Point #3 Bii,

"3Bii--Good works is not salvaic. Only Christ's sacrifice at Calvary repairs the spiritual relationship to unify us back to God."

Christ work is sufficient in uniting us to God. I have nowhere said any different as though good works contributes to that sacrifice. In fact, #3Bi clearly states this also.

3Bi--The temporal (positive) consequences of good works is that it builds character and connects us one to another.

The only thing that good works does is build one's character and connects us closer to each other. Where have I stated it does anything other?

[Dmarie]

Originally Posted by Columcille

Dmarie, the "intermediate state" is the time between bodily death and bodily resurrection. It is not used interchangably with "purgatory." The term "Intermediate State" is a matter of discussion about what happens to the soul during that time. Hence, our "outer court" has been shed by death. I mainly use the temple structure as a means of allegorizing the nature of the temple, meaning us both individually and collectively based on Paul's stating that we are God's temple. As I have already mentioned in Point #3 Bii, Christ work is sufficient in uniting us to God. I have nowhere said any different as though good works contributes to that sacrifice. In fact, #3Bi clearly states this also. The only thing that good works does is build one's character and connects us closer to each other. Where have I stated it does anything other?

Greetings, and Blessings.

Yes, you do say that "Christ's work is sufficient in uniting us to God.", but at the same time you are denying it by adding an additional step or process to the sufficient work of Christ and our unification to Him, again, by adding this Intermediate State.

Please, let's discuss "what happens" in this Intermediate State, and please explain what exactly needs to take place in order for that soul to finally be deemed cleansed and fit to inhabit heaven. Do not "works" of prayer, m***es, perserverence, etc. also need to be done in order for this soul to leave this place? Please explain "what happens."

Blessings...Dmarie

[Columcille]

Originally Posted by Dmarie

Greetings, and Blessings.

Yes, you do say that "Christ's work is sufficient in uniting us to God.", but at the same time you are denying it by adding an additional step or process to the sufficient work of Christ and our unification to Him, again, by adding this Intermediate State.

Please, let's discuss "what happens" in this Intermediate State, and please explain what exactly needs to take place in order for that soul to finally be deemed cleansed and fit to inhabit heaven. Do not "works" of prayer, m***es, perserverence, etc. also need to be done in order for this soul to leave this place? Please explain "what happens."

Blessings...Dmarie

There are various positions in regards to the "Intermediate State." The Seventh Day Adventists believe in "soul sleep." I tend to think that there are many who simply ignore the subject altogether recognizing that the soul returns to God, especially for the Christian. There are many verses that talk about those who are asleep, there are several also that discuss about being alive in God. Typically, asleep appears to mention the state of their bodies rather than their souls. Whereas, even Christ demonstrates their awareness in the Rich Man and Lazarus as well as affirming in the Gospel of John that Abraham saw his day and was glad in chapter 8.

Now, if you can show me where I have stated that works add to Christ's sacrifice, please show me in my posts where I have stated such. It seems you are putting words in my mouth of things I have not said, but rather saying you know more about Eastern Catholicism's position. So far, you are confusing the nature of works as having some spiritual merit toward one's salvation as though this is Catholic. "Meritorious Works" has no salvaic quality. Works that are meritorious are such that exhibit the Scriptures saying their is a reward one receives in their stewardship, just as in the Gospel there are several servants who invested the master's money and one hid it in the ground "knowing that the Master does not sow where he does not reap" and this servant was cast out for not even investing it in the bank to draw interest. Do not confuse the two.

Thirdly, the whole point of the OP is to discuss that there is a state of purging. Hence, I am not going into the side topics until after there is an understanding that something happens within the Intermediate Period. If you think there is a purging within the soul while in the presence of God, then you have come to the Eastern Catholic understanding. If you think a soul has attained purity in God's kingdom, then at what point has the purging taken place? If you think the purging happens in this life, why do yet Christians sin? If you think that a Christian, in God's kingdom can retain their impurities in their soul while being covered by Christ, as though the covering hides sinfulness, then sin continues in heaven under the guise of Christ's righteousness. This I would reject utterly as false.

[Dmarie]

Originally Posted by Columcille

There are various positions in regards to the "Intermediate State." The Seventh Day Adventists believe in "soul sleep." I tend to think that there are many who simply ignore the subject altogether recognizing that the soul returns to God, especially for the Christian. There are many verses that talk about those who are asleep, there are several also that discuss about being alive in God. Typically, asleep appears to mention the state of their bodies rather than their souls. Whereas, even Christ demonstrates their awareness in the Rich Man and Lazarus as well as affirming in the Gospel of John that Abraham saw his day and was glad in chapter 8.

Now, if you can show me where I have stated that works add to Christ's sacrifice, please show me in my posts where I have stated such. It seems you are putting words in my mouth of things I have not said, but rather saying you know more about Eastern Catholicism's position. So far, you are confusing the nature of works as having some spiritual merit toward one's salvation as though this is Catholic. "Meritorious Works" has no salvaic quality. Works that are meritorious are such that exhibit the Scriptures saying their is a reward one receives in their stewardship, just as in the Gospel there are several servants who invested the master's money and one hid it in the ground "knowing that the Master does not sow where he does not reap" and this servant was cast out for not even investing it in the bank to draw interest. Do not confuse the two.

Thirdly, the whole point of the OP is to discuss that there is a state of purging. Hence, I am not going into the side topics until after there is an understanding that something happens within the Intermediate Period. If you think there is a purging within the soul while in the presence of God, then you have come to the Eastern Catholic understanding. If you think a soul has attained purity in God's kingdom, then at what point has the purging taken place? If you think the purging happens in this life, why do yet Christians sin? If you think that a Christian, in God's kingdom can retain their impurities in their soul while being covered by Christ, as though the covering hides sinfulness, then sin continues in heaven under the guise of Christ's righteousness. This I would reject utterly as false.

Greetings & Blessings.

So if you believe that the soul returns to God, then you do agree with what the Scripture says... "We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord." (2Cor.5:8) This says nothing about an Itermediate State. You die, you either go to be with the Lord, or you go to eternal separation and ****ation from Him.

This Intermediate State is a WORK Columcille, to further purge and purify, a soul, and when you adhere to this teaching, you are in fact endorsing and professing this added "process" for the purification of the soul. This is phariseetical. No mincing words here. Again, this is a further work man has added to what Christ had already deemed as sufficient. His death on the cross was sufficient. Why on earth would a soul who has professed Christ, and has been sealed with His Holy Spirit have to go to this place of purging?... "Christ in me"-He is the "guarantee of our inheritence." Does not Jesus say "Come to me all you who labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest." Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me for I am gentle and lowly in heart and you will find rest for your souls." (Math.11:28,29) Agan, you will find my scriptural support in my 2 previous posts in dealing with the sin issue. "Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin." (Heb. 10:18) So, is there further need for an offering for sin? This verse says...NO.
Please re-read my previous posts.

Where is the Scriptural evidence for this teaching?

Blessings....Dmarie

[Columcille]

Originally Posted by Dmarie

Greetings & Blessings.

So if you believe that the soul returns to God, then you do agree with what the Scripture says... "We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord." (2Cor.5:8) This says nothing about an Itermediate State. You die, you either go to be with the Lord, or you go to eternal separation and ****ation from Him.

This Intermediate State is a WORK Columcille, to further purge and purify, a soul, and when you adhere to this teaching, you are in fact endorsing and professing this added "process" for the purification of the soul. This is phariseetical. No mincing words here. Again, this is a further work man has added to what Christ had already deemed as sufficient. His death on the cross was sufficient. Why on earth would a soul who has professed Christ, and has been sealed with His Holy Spirit have to go to this place of purging?... "Christ in me"-He is the "guarantee of our inheritence." Does not Jesus say "Come to me all you who labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest." Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me for I am gentle and lowly in heart and you will find rest for your souls." (Math.11:28,29) Agan, you will find my scriptural support in my 2 previous posts in dealing with the sin issue. "Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin." (Heb. 10:18) So, is there further need for an offering for sin? This verse says...NO.
Please re-read my previous posts.

Where is the Scriptural evidence for this teaching?

Blessings....Dmarie

Dmarie, again, the "Intermediate State" is the time between your mortal body's death and your bodily resurrection when Christ returns. You seem to keep getting this confused. It is not "purgatory" it is not "soul sleep," "Intermediate State" is ONLY the discussion about what happens between it, not specifically endorcing any view as soul sleep or purgatory. It is just a reference of time between bodily death and bodily resurrection. Until you get this understanding, you are going to misconstrue a lot. Stick with my points.

[Dmarie]

Originally Posted by Columcille

Dmarie, again, the "Intermediate State" is the time between your mortal body's death and your bodily resurrection when Christ returns. You seem to keep getting this confused. It is not "purgatory" it is not "soul sleep," "Intermediate State" is ONLY the discussion about what happens between it, not specifically endorcing any view as soul sleep or purgatory. It is just a reference of time between bodily death and bodily resurrection. Until you get this understanding, you are going to misconstrue a lot. Stick with my points.

Hello & Blessings.

Again, let's discuss this.
Please explain to me "where is your Scriptural evidence" for this dogma? Why does a soul have to go to this place? What happens in this place? If this "place" is so important, why didn't Jesus teach about this place? Why didn't any of the apostles teach about this?

Blessings...Dmarie

[Columcille]

Originally Posted by Dmarie

Hello & Blessings.

Again, let's discuss this.
Please explain to me "where is your Scriptural evidence" for this dogma? Why does a soul have to go to this place? What happens in this place? If this "place" is so important, why didn't Jesus teach about this place? Why didn't any of the apostles teach about this?

Blessings...Dmarie

Point 1.
1 John 1:5: This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
John 1.5,9: 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.
9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

The people who sat in darkness have seen a great light, And upon those who sat in the region and shadow of death Light has dawned.” Matthew 4:16

Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path. Psalm 119:105


There is a lot more scripture verses that equate God as a light of a divine nature. There is also how that light is perceived, both by the righteous as David expresses in the Psalms as well as the wicked percieving it not. Already this is expressed in the Gospel of John that I have already stated above which leads to the second point.

Point 2.

2i) There are those who rebel against the light; They do not know its ways Nor abide in its paths. *** 24:13

The light of the righteous rejoices, But the lamp of the wicked will be put out. Prov 13:9

Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Isaiah 5:20

2ii) For with You is the fountain of life; In Your light we see light. Psalm 36:9

For the Lord will be your everlasting light…. Isaiah 60:20


Now granted... "light" is used as figurative speech. It is not the "literal" sense of which I speak about but as it reveals the character of God. God is light, and perhaps when we come before him this light may be very literal as well, but in our present bodies such a radiance is considered in the O.T. to be a flame that would kill us. Indeed, Moses did not see the full glory of God, yet his face had to be covered due to the radiance of his face. Can you imagine what it would be like for us when our souls return to God? When we are clothed in incorruptable flesh at the resurrection? I certainly cant, but the figurative speech and its literalness with Mose's face, certainly points to God's holiness.

[Dmarie]

Originally Posted by Columcille

Point 1.
1 John 1:5: This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
John 1.5,9: 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.
9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

The people who sat in darkness have seen a great light, And upon those who sat in the region and shadow of death Light has dawned.” Matthew 4:16

Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path. Psalm 119:105


There is a lot more scripture verses that equate God as a light of a divine nature. There is also how that light is perceived, both by the righteous as David expresses in the Psalms as well as the wicked percieving it not. Already this is expressed in the Gospel of John that I have already stated above which leads to the second point.

Point 2.

2i) There are those who rebel against the light; They do not know its ways Nor abide in its paths. *** 24:13

The light of the righteous rejoices, But the lamp of the wicked will be put out. Prov 13:9

Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Isaiah 5:20

2ii) For with You is the fountain of life; In Your light we see light. Psalm 36:9

For the Lord will be your everlasting light…. Isaiah 60:20


Now granted... "light" is used as figurative speech. It is not the "literal" sense of which I speak about but as it reveals the character of God. God is light, and perhaps when we come before him this light may be very literal as well, but in our present bodies such a radiance is considered in the O.T. to be a flame that would kill us. Indeed, Moses did not see the full glory of God, yet his face had to be covered due to the radiance of his face. Can you imagine what it would be like for us when our souls return to God? When we are clothed in incorruptable flesh at the resurrection? I certainly cant, but the figurative speech and its literalness with Mose's face, certainly points to God's holiness.

Greetings.

I agree...God is Holy.

So,...where is the teaching of the "Intermediate State" in any of these Scriptures. You have not answered any of my questions.

Blessings...Dmarie

[Columcille]

Originally Posted by Dmarie

Greetings.

I agree...God is Holy.

So,...where is the teaching of the "Intermediate State" in any of these Scriptures. You have not answered any of my questions.

Blessings...Dmarie

I guess I have to make a simple sketch to demonstrate the meaning.



Christian view:
mortal state of being | intermediate state of being | immortal state of being
Fleshly living----------soul returns to God...............bodily resurrection

Athiest view:
Mortal state of being | death
Fleshy living...............no soul (annihilation)

There is no "intermediate state" of being for the Athiest because there is no bodily resurrection, death ends life.

Buddhist view:
Mortal state|death... Rebirth in another mortal state|death.... Rebirth(...)... Nirvana (enlightenment).

Buddhists may have multiple intermediate states between rebirths, good luck asking how karma fits in to all this, I cannot get a strait answer on any aspect of a soul much less a sense of conscious state of personal responsibility to justice.


I'm only trying for you to see here that The intermediate state is a concept about what happens between (intermediate) states of being (state). You keep confusing the state of being as a place... As though it is like a place. Indeed there is perhaps a place or places where a soul resides within that state of being, but that part of what the discussion seeks to look into. The intermediate state is again only that state of being between a person's death and their bodily resurrection. I don't use the term purgatory as I BELIEVE ALL SOULS GO BACK TO GOD. I am emphasizing this because you think I have not answered your question. The scriptures I use to determine this is one for the Christian as Paul clearly teaches that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. For the ungodly, the verses are a little more subtle, since they do not have communion with God their souls leave their mortal bodies, but regardless of where they are ... God is omnipresent... So that they are still going to God who gave them their existence. I have also given the verses of God is light, and how God's light is perceived already in a previous post.

intermediate definition:

late Middle English: from medieval Latin intermediatus, from Latin intermedius, from inter- ‘between’ + medius ‘middle’.
intermediate ˌɪntə'miːdɪət
► adjective
coming between two things in time, place, character, etc.: an intermediate stage of development | a cooled liquid intermediate between liquid and solid.


state definition:

Noun--
1. the particular condition that someone or something is in at a specific time:

[Dmarie]

Originally Posted by Columcille

I guess I have to make a simple sketch to demonstrate the meaning.



Christian view:
mortal state of being | intermediate state of being | immortal state of being
Fleshly living----------soul returns to God...............bodily resurrection

Athiest view:
Mortal state of being | death
Fleshy living...............no soul (annihilation)

There is no "intermediate state" of being for the Athiest because there is no bodily resurrection, death ends life.

Buddhist view:
Mortal state|death... Rebirth in another mortal state|death.... Rebirth(...)... Nirvana (enlightenment).

Buddhists may have multiple intermediate states between rebirths, good luck asking how karma fits in to all this, I cannot get a strait answer on any aspect of a soul much less a sense of conscious state of personal responsibility to justice.


I'm only trying for you to see here that The intermediate state is a concept about what happens between (intermediate) states of being (state). You keep confusing the state of being as a place... As though it is like a place. Indeed there is perhaps a place or places where a soul resides within that state of being, but that part of what the discussion seeks to look into. The intermediate state is again only that state of being between a person's death and their bodily resurrection. I don't use the term purgatory as I BELIEVE ALL SOULS GO BACK TO GOD. I am emphasizing this because you think I have not answered your question. The scriptures I use to determine this is one for the Christian as Paul clearly teaches that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. For the ungodly, the verses are a little more subtle, since they do not have communion with God their souls leave their mortal bodies, but regardless of where they are ... God is omnipresent... So that they are still going to God who gave them their existence. I have also given the verses of God is light, and how God's light is perceived already in a previous post.

intermediate definition:

late Middle English: from medieval Latin intermediatus, from Latin intermedius, from inter- ‘between’ + medius ‘middle’.
intermediate ˌɪntə'miːdɪət
► adjective
coming between two things in time, place, character, etc.: an intermediate stage of development | a cooled liquid intermediate between liquid and solid.


state definition:

Noun--
1. the particular condition that someone or something is in at a specific time:

Greetings & Blessings Columcille.

Your statement regarding the "concept" of the Intermediate State" seems to conflict with what your Synod states:

"The Confession of Dositheus"

"We believe that the souls of those that have fallen asleep are either at rest or in torment, according to what each has done,-for when they are seperated from their bodies, they depart immediately either to joy, or to sorrow and lamentation, though confessedly neither their enjoyment nor condemnation are complete. For after the common resurrection, when the soul shall be united with the body, with which it had behaved itself well or ill,
each shall receive the completion of either enjoyment or of condemnation."

"And the souls involved in mortal sins, who have not departed in despair but while still living in the body, though without bringing forth any fruits of repentance, have repented-by pouring forth tears, by kneeling while watching in prayers, by afflicting themselves, by relieving the poor, and finally by showing forth by their works their love towards God and their neighbor, and which the Catholic Church has from the beginning rightly called satisfaction- [their souls] depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from there, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers of the Priests, and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed; especially the unbloody Sacrifice benefiting the most; which each offers particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offers daily for all alike. Of course, it is understood that we do not know the time of their release. We know and believe that there is deliverance for such from their direful condition, and that before the common resurrection and judgment, but when we know not"

This Synod certainly does speak of a place that the departed go to..., "Hades" and "there".

"concept", definition:
n. and idea, especially a generalized idea of a cl*** of objects; a thought, a general notion.

Columcille, my reason for being on this forum is to point all Catholics to what the Scriptures have to say, and to reason from them,...and to do so in an un-condescending way. So, if I tend to use "two-bit Western terminology", please forgive me, it is not my purpose nor is it my intention to confuse or confound, but it is simply my background and what I am familiar with. I am making more of an effort to familiarize myself with the Eastern Orthodox terminologies, and stances.
I do understand that there are some doctrinal differences between the East and the West, and a deep schism because of this, however, ultimately... they both still "...walk with the successor of Peter." (one of your bishops, Bishop John Elya).

Now, back to the discussion at hand...the Intermediate State.
Even if terms are not agreed upon between the East & West, there is still what seems to be an agreed upon place. Again, whether defined or not, these departed souls, after undergoing their own "Particular Judgement", do go to a designated place, and this ties in with the mutual agreement of "indulgences", and "prayers for the dead". To cite one of your bishops again, Bishop John Elya says:

"Clearly, both East and West, we believe that our prayers benefit the dead"
"We pray that the journey will be free from pain and diabolical attack."
"The idea of temporal punishment due to sin is not entirely foreign to our Eastern theology. In some Eastern cultures...the Church prays for the dissolution of any bonds that would keep the deceased tied, in a temporal way, to the corpse or to an intermediate state of purification."
*This "state" strongly seems to describe a "place" and certainly not a notion, or "concept" as you described it.

Again, I agree God is holy and He is light.
Your given usage of Scriptures does not in any way support the teaching of this "Intermediate State", but it instead describes the attributes of our Great God and Savior. The Scriptures do describe the "believer" as "a light in the Lord." "For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light." (Eph.5:8)
Jesus also refers to His children as being lights..."You are the light of the world. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven." (Mat. 5:14,16)

The Scriptures clearly teach that when we come to Christ through faith, and we have Him in our hearts, and we are sealed with His Holy Spirit, we are no longer condemned...in any way, nor to any other place other than to HIM.

"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus...." (Romans 8:1)

*This "Intermediate State" is not Scriptural, but is a product, a notion, a "concept" of man, and not of God. It has no basis in Scripture.
The Catholic Church, even within itself, cannot agree upon its terminology, definition, or discription, so how can it, even at all, enforce it as a dogma on its followers?

Blessings...Dmarie

[Columcille]

Again, please try and understand that the conceptualization of "Intermediate State" encomp***es all Christian ideas of what happens between time of death and the time of resurrection. You will not see "intermediate state" in Scripture because the words are not meant to define, but as a means of discussion. Could you please stop using "intermediate state" as synonomous of anything other than a state between our mortal death and bodily resurrection. I keep telling you over and over again and it does not seem to click.

Intermediate State can mean different points of view, but each view can fit under the ***le.

For instance,

The Seventh Day Adventist view:

Corruptible state..... intermediate state..... Incorruptible state
bodily death........... soul sleep (soul in God, but unconscience) ... bodily resurrection

Catholic view:

Corruptible state.... intermediate state..... incorruptible state
bodily death.......... Hell (wicked)/Purgatory and Heaven (righteous).... bodily resurrection

Jehovah Witness:
Corruptible state.... (no intermediate state due to no bodily resurrection)
bodily death...... annihilation (wicked)/spirit body--no bodily resurrection

Now answer me this....
Do you believe there is no intermediate state whatsoever? Because if you don't, you don't believe in the resurrection as the example of the Jehovah Witness, athiests, and many others heresies believe. If you think holding on to no intermediate state is orthodox, then please explain what happens between death and bodily resurrection. I am finding it really hard to get you to understand this concept.

[Dmarie]

Blessings.

In the words of the Apostle Paul: "For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain." (Philip.1:21)

Paul speaks of "being hard-pressed" between choosing to be with Christ, or to remain. (Philip.1:23) He spoke condfidently in that he knew that to depart meant that he would immediately be with the Lord...no "lay-overs"...anywhere!

Blessings...Dmarie