John 1:1 real problems in there for Trinitarians

[MacG]

Originally Posted by Tom Boots

I ask this question to Trinitarians is God a Trinity or not?

Maybe we can figure it out.

Is God able to be seen or not?

Yes and no. jn14:8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? "
John 6:46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father." Seems neither the one from God nor the Father is God here unless they both are.

Is God a man?

Yes and no. Jn1:14 "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us" Jn4:24"God is spirit"

Is God flesh and bones?

There is one equal to God who became flesh and bone. Phil 2

Is God able to sit face to face with himself as another being?

There is only one God but then excepting the One who is from God; He has seen the Father." John 6:46 Sounds like He is with the Father. Jn17:5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. REV1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him

Where was the Holy Spirit God in all this about John 1:1?

Not there but in the immediate context of verse 14 Jn1:14 "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us" via Luke 1 “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you".

[Tom Boots]

I was going to ask you what you got on the back nine when you played 18, but that was a good one,
Yesterday it was 46 with wind chill at 40.

[Tom Boots]

Greek studier and student not going to be a scholar.
I am a History scholar.
I am sexual scholar, matter of fact a expert.

I have studied Greek and Biblical languages in college.

I also read materials of those who do debate Trinitarians that know more about such than me, Dr. Marvin Treece, Talmadge French, Jerry Hayes.

[Tom Boots]

I notice in reading that he does not deal with the other three places that
"pros ton theon" is used, I find that interesting, why avoid when anyone reading the Greek and comparing the usage in HEB. 2:17, 5:1 AND ROM. 15:17 finds
"in things pertaing to God".
Now the fact is this though, that it is the extrabiblical language of Trinitarians that amazes me and hoodwinks unsuspecting Trinitarians into believing that all these are biblical, that it says what Trinity scholars and Ministers say.
i.e. Trinity, no place is it found, yet a whole doctrine is built upon it, the Hebrew man never taught it.
The earliest of known Christians never espoused such, if you study and look for who could be cl***ified Trinitarian holding a Trinity view of God, one must reject that any of the Jews held such O.T. or N.T. and that any 1st century Christians held such.
So MACG tell me who by name is of your camp in the second century, tell me who you count as your Ministers and holding your faith, but make sure you study, before you pop out the names of those your camp runs to and then must run away from when we see what they really held.
JUSTIN MARTYR, ORIGEN, TERTULLIAN.
I realize by mid 3rd century your side had taken over and suppressed Monarchians, but we held the Bishopric of Rome and Smyrna and Antioch and other places well before the first Known Trinitarian was known {Tertullian}.

When it comes to debating the ENGLISH scriptures translated by those who put it in our language, Oneness fair very well and of those I have attended, gotten tapes audio and video or read any books or transcripts, Oneness win hands down.

[cheachea]

Tom Boots you have already lost yet you refuse to listen. I showed you where you are wrong using scripture but you still refuse to listen. Ask The Holy Spirit to reveal all Truth to You and He Will.

In the end you are just like all the other Heretical Non-TRINITARIAN Cults out there. You fit in with the Mormons, JW's, Adoptionism, Arianism, and Docetism. You sound like you fall in to the Sabellianism Heresy.

At the End of the day you are just Wrong . You believe Heresies that have already been rejected for almost 2,000 years.

[Tom Boots]

You may want to wake upand smell the Roses, you didn't refute me, Irefuted your posts and Trinitarians.
Sabellius was a saint of God and that God is Jesus.
There is no Trinity because your church used force to come in power doesn't mean we are heretics, just that we are are not you folks and don't follow three god heresy.
Irefuted your1 Jn 5:7 post and Gen. 1:26, you cannot even answer my posts as see in all the posts above.

[cheachea]

Originally Posted by Tom Boots

You may want to wake upand smell the Roses, you didn't refute me, Irefuted your posts and Trinitarians.
.

Nope Wrong Again.

[MacG]

Originally Posted by Tom Boots

I notice in reading that he does not deal with the other three places that
"pros ton theon" is used, I find that interesting, why avoid when anyone reading the Greek and comparing the usage in HEB. 2:17, 5:1 AND ROM. 15:17 finds
"in things pertaing to God".

Not sure about why he did not go on about the other three. Since he does not say it is speculation to say he avoided them. Did you notice the he referenced Romans 5:1? Here is a whole list of the use of pros.. Most often is it used as 'with' and pertaining to only six times(KJV) and only in the Hebrews verses you mention not the Romans p***age. What rule are you using to derive pertaining to God in Jn1

[Tom Boots]

He did deal with the three verses that speak of pros ton theon, in no other place is pros ton theon translated WITH as Jn.1:1.
I believe they use the smoke and mirrors in showing it in other places to hide there not showing how it was used in modifying Theos.

I believe it is attempt to have the multiple god view.

[MacG]

Originally Posted by Tom Boots

He did deal with the three verses that speak of pros ton theon, in no other place is pros ton theon translated WITH as Jn.1:1.
I believe they use the smoke and mirrors in showing it in other places to hide there not showing how it was used in modifying Theos.

I believe it is attempt to have the multiple god view.

Did you re-read the blog again? First you said he did not deal with it then you said he did. I read it again and saw this this time "2 Corinthians 5:8 "pros ton kurion" (“with the Lord”)".

[Tom Boots]

No regarding the one true God and the Trinity three gods I am not wrong.
I came out of that and was glad I did, for my studies have shown me a false antichrist church which has the blood of saints on it's hands and what it wants (freedom to worship as one sees fits) it didn't allow others to participate.
Torture, hate, thievery, murder, all seen for many a century and hidden behind the facade of being a church.

You have struck out with Gen. 1:26, 1 Jn 5:7, why don't you try the third strike whiffing for a good strike out.
Or sit there and get caught looking as I continue to post, JESUS is The Lord God Almighty and not a weak second deity or three.

[Tom Boots]

Theos was not modified in any other p***age as Jn 1:1, go retread it.
he didn't want to deal with what exposed his position, by not posting the three other p***ages as I mentioned, that tells me he wanted to intentionally misinform, or he really didn't know Greek as much as he Put on.

Pros ton Theon = in things pertaining to God .
Heb 2:17,5:1, and yes Rom. 5:17.
John 1:1 should have been the same.

Now please tell me do you believe God is The/A Trinity?
If so you must change your belief thatGod is such and make up a different view to fit your doctrine than what you folks say you believe.

Is God three persons? Or not? Is God three beings as stated by so many or are those Trinitarians in error or is it you are in error?

Tell me MacG do you have any books written by Oneness ministers or authors or read any? And what might they be, I know Trinitarians have done little study about us Apostolics and or our Doctrine.

Shot 83 Sa****ay best round this year.

[Tom Boots]

Originally Posted by Tom Boots

I ask this question to Trinitarians is God a Trinity or not?
Is God able to be seen or not?
Is God a man?
Is God flesh and bones?
Is God able to sit face to face with himself as another being?
Where was the Holy Spirit God in all this about John 1:1?

I think we need to discuss your many errors in the p***age.
See it is easy to just ramble on about what you want to say in writings and books, but when actually questioned and exposed to the many errors in the verse, well , that is a way different story.

So lets talk and lets see the real problem with the three gods and not One God doctrine.

Would be nice to see a response to questions I ask.

Different versions

w) In the beginning was the word, that is, God’s Son, and the word was at God, and God was the word. (p) In the beginning was the word, and the word was at God, and God was the word.
(t) ¶ In the beginning was the [that] word, and the [that] word was with God: and God was the [that] word. (g) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(k) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Is God our Father as scripture says?
Is God a Trinity
Is God his own Son?
What is Son?
What is the beginning?
What is pertaining or with God?
Does the scriptures have in the Greek, Son for the Word in the p***age?
Is God three persons or one person?[give the scripture please].

[Tom Boots]

Originally Posted by MacG

Maybe we can figure it out.



Yes and no. jn14:8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? "
John 6:46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father." Seems neither the one from God nor the Father is God here unless they both are.

Tom
No man hath seen God at anytime Jn 1:18
The only way you see the Father is by
Looking at the EXPRESS IMAGE, because God=Spirit was enfleshed 2Cor. 5:19, 1 Tim.3:16, Jn 14:10
God is invisible, his express image, the Son of God is visible.

{The only true God is the FATHER, Jn 17:1-3}.

Yes and no. Jn1:14 "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us" Jn4:24"God is spirit"

Tom:God is not a man, Num. 23:19, 1Sam. 15:29,*** 9:32.
The Word=Logos is idea, thought, expression as in the mind, it is not a second god person, a being with the Father, GOd's Logos was in time....TIME made or became flesh, meaning it was not such before it was made such.
God is Spirit, not flesh Jn4:24



There is one equal to God who became flesh and bone. Phil 2

Tom: There is none equal, doesn't say such.
God was indwelling the Son.
God was Spirit, not flesh and Jesus said such Luke 24:39.
God was in Christ.2 Cor. 5:19
The Son was the Man Christ Jesus 1 Tim. 3:16

There is only one God but then excepting the One who is from God; He has seen the Father." John 6:46 Sounds like He is with the Father. Jn17:5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. REV1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him

Tom:There is not God and another person or being or God with him.


Not there but in the immediate context of verse 14 Jn1:14 "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us" via Luke 1 “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you".

Tom:No Spirit there? Is God the Father not SPIRIT?
Put the thinking cap on, Spirit was there, it was The Lord God, which is Spirit and our Father, not the bird, not another third person.

[MacG]

Originally Posted by Tom Boots

Theos was not modified in any other p***age as Jn 1:1, go retread it.
he didn't want to deal with what exposed his position, by not posting the three other p***ages as I mentioned, that tells me he wanted to intentionally misinform, or he really didn't know Greek as much as he Put on.

Pros ton Theon = in things pertaining to God .
Heb 2:17,5:1, and yes Rom. 5:17.
John 1:1 should have been the same.

As Pros ton is rendered "with" so many more times than pertaining to, which grammar rules would disallow the following:

Rom 15:17 ""Therefore in Christ Jesus I have found reason for boasting in with God."

Heb 2:17 "Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest with God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people."

Heb 5:1 "For every high priest taken from among men is appointed on behalf of men with God, in order to offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins;


2 Corinthians 5:8 "pros ton kurion" (“with the Lord”): 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord" or "8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home pertaining to the Lord"

Why is pros ton rendered as 'with' in 2 Cor?

Now please tell me do you believe God is The/A Trinity?
If so you must change your belief thatGod is such and make up a different view to fit your doctrine than what you folks say you believe.

Is God three persons? Or not? Is God three beings as stated by so many or are those Trinitarians in error or is it you are in error?

Just examining Scripture here. There is but one God.

Tell me MacG do you have any books written by Oneness ministers or authors or read any? And what might they be, I know Trinitarians have done little study about us Apostolics and or our Doctrine.

I have not.

Shot 83 Sa****ay best round this year.

Always feels good to do your best. My last outing on Mother's Day, I had two holes in one, the windmill was usually kind.

[MacG]

Originally Posted by Tom Boots

He did deal with the three verses that speak of pros ton theon, in no other place is pros ton theon translated WITH as Jn.1:1.
I believe they use the smoke and mirrors in showing it in other places to hide there not showing how it was used in modifying Theos.

I believe it is attempt to have the multiple god view.

Even though he a Baptist, I think you two are in agreement that there is but one God - not multiple. Perhaps you mistated?

[cheachea]

It's already an established Doctrine of ALL OF CHRISTIANITY . You are Wrong. Just Except that you are wrong and that you belong to a Cult.

The Trinity is an established Doctrine of The Eastern Orthodox, All of Protestantism, and Roman Catholicism.


ONLY THE CULTS REJECT THE DOCTRINE. REALIZE THIS. THEN REALIZE THAT YOU ARE APART OF THE CULTS.

[Tom Boots]

It is established by force, it is established by false gentile pagan doctrine with people who accepted a lie, not by scripture.
Also history shows that you folks deny Jesus as the one true God and make him a god a second of three.
Note you cannot find three persons a triad a trinity baptismal formula used in bible.
We are the church trinitarianhsm a fraud

[Tom Boots]

All established by non Christians, for they did not hold the doctrine of Jesus (JESUS NEVER TAUGHT A TRINITY OR TAUGHT THREE PERSONS) never taught by an Apostle (nothing in scripture by any of them of a Triune godhead) not taught by the Disciples (not a thing from any about triunity and eternal Son)
CHEACHEA, the cult is Trinitarians, they came up with three gods, Jesus and his daddy and the bird god of tritheism.
You are proving that you are a Catholic, for Protestants have no business even pretending to be what they are not.
Catholicism is the mother religion and according to REV. 17 is MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS.

I CAN FIND MY CHURCH IN SCRIPTURES, Historically find it as the orginal and only religion of God Jesus as the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY, not a third of a triune godhead of three beings making up the Trinitarians pretend one God.

I am so glad that you count pagans and heathens of all of Trinitarianism as yours.

[cheachea]

Originally Posted by Tom Boots

All established by non Christians, for they did not hold the doctrine of Jesus (JESUS NEVER TAUGHT A TRINITY OR TAUGHT THREE PERSONS)

Matthew 28:19
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,


The Lord Jesus Christ said this. I'm not Catholic by the way I'm Protestant.

[Tom Boots]

cheachea, you were the one counting as your brood CATHOLICS, you cannot find your church save but through her , you are Catholic as much as Catholics are MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS, She is mother, you are her offspring.

Posting MATTHEW 28:19 AND THINKING IT SUPPORTS YOU IS ERROR, NO PLACE DID ANYONE REPEAT THIS PHRASE IN BAPTISMS AS A FORMULA, instead they always used the name of Jesus.
Acts 2:38, 8:16, 10:48, 19:5, 22:16.

the "name" of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost was JESUS!,
Jesus the Son of God came in his Father's name.
The name of the Son was Jesus
The Name of the paraclete=Comforter was Jesus.

You deny plain scripture regarding ONE GOD, and hold three as members in a godhead, a false eternal son, a false God the Son and equally false God the Holy Ghost.
You people deny the name of Jesus in baptism as REV. 3:8 shows.

cheachea, tell me who were Trinitarians by name in the 2nd century, I know you will try and say that the APOSTLES were, but I don't see them teaching your ideas and doctrines.
So who do you say is part of your church in the 2nd century, I frankly see NONE, you can try claiming those who you think were Trinitarians, but will find they held two gods.
Or didn't use such language as you folks do.

[Tom Boots]

84 ON A DIFFERENT COURSE SUNDAY, I hit the stick and missed hole in one by a foot at 150 yds.
Hit the stick at 100 yds two holes latter, but jumped off the green.

Now I don't know what version you are using, but it would seem to be one that someone translates what is not in the KJV regarding the three verses that translate
PROS TON THEON 'IN THINGS PERTAINING TO GOD'.

I use the KJV, if another version is used, one should put what version abbreviation at the end.
LIKE GAL. 2:20 AMPLIFIED
20 Now a go-between (intermediary) has to do with and implies more than one party [there can be no mediator with just one person].
Yet God is [only] one Person [and He was the sole party in giving that promise to Abraham. But the Law was a contract between two, God and Israel; its validity was dependent on both].

Note scripture says God is only ONE PERSON, which is what the Greek grammar of heis Theos means from the p***age.

*** 13:7-8 Here God is called a person in the KJV, why not three persons, or will you say this only meant one of a pack of persons making up God and which one?

Now I have a different view of what One God means, I mean one, not a plurality of beings making up a godhead to make a plural one, I don't believe God was seen or spoken by Jews as such and nor did the 1st century APostles, Disciples and Christ do so.

My one God is the only true God and Father, Jesus the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY, the Holy One and the only deity we Oneness Apostolics worship and not try to divide God into plurality of persons in a triune godhead.

Now I believe the difference in with as you see in 2 Cor. 5:8 has to do with how something was with Lord as to pertaining to God, it is the language of action, something with Lord is not meaning it was pertaining to God.
"PARA' WOULD BE NEEDED TO BE 'WITH".
"PROS" to pertain to God himself.
With gives the connotation something alongside, God is not with another God as Jn 1:1 attempts to say by translaters, but rather Pertaining to God as in that verse coming from God, in this case the LOGOS or Word, God's Logos not meaning a person or being or another like God or another God, but from God as to pertaining to him.
Logos means IDEA=THOUGHT-EXPRESSION.
NOT ANOTHER GOD, NOT A PART OF A GOD MADE UP OF THREE BEINGS.

So how do you accept what you are in and believe as the truth, when there is another group claiming the same as you, but holding a different viewpoint that Jesus is God and not with two others making up a deity as you hold?
And I am not speaking of a religion like Jehovah Witnesses or Mormons or Christian Scientists etc which have no doctrine or history going back further than the 19th century or 16th century, but which has people named and known to hold a Monarchian view as we do today.
I searched and studied about Oneness Monarchianism and as well Trinitarianism, and found the one (Oneness) to be the church of the Bible and Trinitarianism to be the false church, denying Jesus as God.

[cheachea]

Originally Posted by Tom Boots

Trinitarianism to be the false church, denying Jesus as God.

I agree with you that The Lord Jesus Christ is God. Trinitarians believe that Jesus Christ is God. What's the Problem ?

[MacG]

Originally Posted by Tom Boots

84 ON A DIFFERENT COURSE SUNDAY, I hit the stick and missed hole in one by a foot at 150 yds.
Hit the stick at 100 yds two holes latter, but jumped off the green.

Now I don't know what version you are using, but it would seem to be one that someone translates what is not in the KJV regarding the three verses that translate
PROS TON THEON 'IN THINGS PERTAINING TO GOD'.

I use the KJV, if another version is used, one should put what version abbreviation at the end.
LIKE GAL. 2:20 AMPLIFIED
20 Now a go-between (intermediary) has to do with and implies more than one party [there can be no mediator with just one person].
Yet God is [only] one Person [and He was the sole party in giving that promise to Abraham. But the Law was a contract between two, God and Israel; its validity was dependent on both].

Note scripture says God is only ONE PERSON, which is what the Greek grammar of heis Theos means from the p***age.

*** 13:7-8 Here God is called a person in the KJV, why not three persons, or will you say this only meant one of a pack of persons making up God and which one?

Now I have a different view of what One God means, I mean one, not a plurality of beings making up a godhead to make a plural one, I don't believe God was seen or spoken by Jews as such and nor did the 1st century APostles, Disciples and Christ do so.

My one God is the only true God and Father, Jesus the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY, the Holy One and the only deity we Oneness Apostolics worship and not try to divide God into plurality of persons in a triune godhead.

Now I believe the difference in with as you see in 2 Cor. 5:8 has to do with how something was with Lord as to pertaining to God, it is the language of action, something with Lord is not meaning it was pertaining to God.
"PARA' WOULD BE NEEDED TO BE 'WITH".
"PROS" to pertain to God himself.
With gives the connotation something alongside, God is not with another God as Jn 1:1 attempts to say by translaters, but rather Pertaining to God as in that verse coming from God, in this case the LOGOS or Word, God's Logos not meaning a person or being or another like God or another God, but from God as to pertaining to him.
Logos means IDEA=THOUGHT-EXPRESSION.
NOT ANOTHER GOD, NOT A PART OF A GOD MADE UP OF THREE BEINGS.

So how do you accept what you are in and believe as the truth, when there is another group claiming the same as you, but holding a different viewpoint that Jesus is God and not with two others making up a deity as you hold?
And I am not speaking of a religion like Jehovah Witnesses or Mormons or Christian Scientists etc which have no doctrine or history going back further than the 19th century or 16th century, but which has people named and known to hold a Monarchian view as we do today.
I searched and studied about Oneness Monarchianism and as well Trinitarianism, and found the one (Oneness) to be the church of the Bible and Trinitarianism to be the false church, denying Jesus as God.

This is Gal 2:20 "20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."


"In the beginning was the THOUGHT-EXPRESSION. The THOUGHT-EXPRESSION was pertaining to God. The THOUGHT-EXPRESSION was God. The same was with God...and the THOUGHT-EXPRESSION was made flesh and dwelt among us" This is not making sense to me I am not so sure about this.

Pros is used 600+ times in the new testament. Many times translated with and no para in sight. In fact Pros is used in Jn1:2 "The same was in the beginning with God" What is the "same" in this p***age?

In the previous post I asked you about the grammar rules for the translation of pros when it comes to the use of 'with' or 'pertaining to'. I think I have asked twice. Do you not know them?

I have never denied Jesus is God - on that the scripture is clear. "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men". Phil 2:5ff KJV It that says before His incarnation, He was equal with God. Additionally it says that He thought I thought that Word means THOUGHT-EXPRESSION. Are you telling me that the THOUGHT-EXPRESSION has thoughts?

[Tom Boots]

You also believe He is with two others you call God who are persons or beings in a godhead, namely the Father first person in a godhead and the Holy Ghost/Spirit who he is not and thus two others as well like He who is members or individuals or separate persons, A.T. Robertson in John 1:1 of his Greek Word pictures likens them to being face to face, that to me is three gods.
You deny that Jesus is the Father despite Isa. 9:6speaking about Jesus was and is to be called Father( without taking a caveat of the word everlasting and making up another Father being with the Father).
We see as wellin Rev. 21:6-7 that Jesus himself says he would be our God and we his son/s.

Apostolic Oneness Pentecostals of Monarchian faith hold Jesus is God and Father for scripture over and over says God is the Father and that there is only one true God, the Father Jn 17:1-3.

We have problems withthegentile pagan idea that your Catholic Church started and did not get from Jesus Christ,the Apostles, any bible writer or God himself.

One means one to us, not a plurality of beings as corporate members making a group of god being this one God you have.

Tom