John 1:1 real problems in there for Trinitarians

[Tom Boots]

Sorry didn't check that should be Galatians 3:20not 2:20.
Gal. 3:20 Amplified says God is one Person, not persons or three persons.

Yes I was trying to explain that with gives the connotation used by Trinitarians that something an be along side of and not pertaining to God.
Theos God was not modified in the other three pros ton theon p***ages as "with", but pertained to God, just like it should have been in Jn 1:1.
The Word is not another person, being, en***y to be with it as Robertson in his word pictures of the N.T. Tries to make it, that would be more than one God.

Notice it says "the same" ,and not like many modern versions HE for the Word-Logos.

We explain it that in the beginning the Logos of God, his idea, thoughts were pertaining to him, [with]{if you keep it in proper context, that it was not a being or person but something he had withhim and always did as. To his ideas and thoughts which eventually expressed them as
As a plan or idea.
As spoken word
As a written word
As a Living word the idea made real.

Phil. 2:5 does not say before his incarnation in that verse.
Matter of fact that is a clear attempt to insert a idea into the verse.
The son ofGod was knot eternal, but was begotten not eternally, but in TIME!
Was made (something Trinitarian creeds deny and I believe mostTrinitarians hold versus made as Gal. 4:4 says).
Was born in time.

Let me ask can God die in your religion?
Or God's Son?
What is God's son to you, another God or god being?
Or a flesh and bones human perfect and sinless or a hybrid god-man second to another almost always referred to as God and always as Father?
I believe you folks have the problem of any of your gods dying and if all three do, we'll you are in trouble, for you haven't way of getting them out of hell if that be the case and God can die.
Oneness say that the Son of, not God the Son died.
Son, the man Christ Jesus according to scripture 1Tim. 2:5.
Son= the flesh and bones of Jesus Christ the Son or tabernacle of God, Luke 24:39.

The Greek is against the idea of persons.
The English is plain that God is Spirit and not his own Son, the man Christ a flesh and bones human in which God indwelt as Father the Spirit deity 2 Cor. 5:19, Jn 14:10-11.

[Tom Boots]

Where was anyone baptized and the t i tles said over them as a formula in a scriptural p***age repeated as you believe it says to do, but not as Apostles did in all baptismal p***ages, when they used the name Jesus.

[cheachea]

At this Point only The Holy Spirit of God can lead you into all truth. I hope you come to the Truth.

[MacG]

We explain it that in the beginning the Logos of God, his idea, thoughts were pertaining to him, [with]{if you keep it in proper context, that it was not a being or person but something he had withhim and always did as

" Christ Jesus. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God" When was the cogniscient Christ Jesus in the form of God?

[Tom Boots]

I have the Holy Spirit the way the Bible speaks, led by, filled with, having the fruits and gifts of the Spirit and not what I see in Trinitarian churches as a whole. As in a whole bunch, as in all!

[MacG]

Originally Posted by Tom Boots

Would be nice to see a response to questions I ask.

Different versions

w) In the beginning was the word, that is, God’s Son, and the word was at God, and God was the word. (p) In the beginning was the word, and the word was at God, and God was the word.
(t) ¶ In the beginning was the [that] word, and the [that] word was with God: and God was the [that] word. (g) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(k) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Which versions are those?

Is God our Father as scripture says?

As the Scripture says.

Is God a Trinity

Trying to figure that out.

Is God his own Son?

No.

What is Son?

From a Father

What is the beginning?

The creation's starting point.

What is pertaining or with God?

The Word is with God as you say. Harder still is understanding that God's thought or idea is God.

Does the scriptures have in the Greek, Son for the Word in the p***age?

Don't know Greek but verse 14 of the same paragraph says the Word became flesh. So the idea or thought that was God became flesh I would ***ume that is the only begotten Son who was sent to earth.

Is God three persons or one person?[give the scripture please].

Trying to figure that out. John 17:22 NASB "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;" Just as We are one.

[Tom Boots]

Originally Posted by MacG

Which versions are those?

Wycliffe, Tyndale and KJV
I posted these for you to peruse some other versions, the Wycliffe adds words not seen in Greek MSS, A clear cut addition inserted of GOD'S SON, a idea he held, not a translation.


As the Scripture says.

nOTICE NO CAVEAT OR MODIFYING GOD TO BE GOD THE FATHER FIRST PERSON IN THE GODHEAD.
But God is the Father throughout the scriptures as in John 17:1-3.

Trying to figure that out.
If not in Bible, why call God something the Word of God never uses and the word has no support for, as God is never said to be "three persons".
Neither the word is spoken or the words making up the definition of it.


No.
So the Son is not God, God is not the Son, and there is no GOD THE SON in scripture.


From a Father
Father then precedes his Son.
The Father is eternal, the Son begotten.
The Father was Spirit JOHN 4:24 and the Son, the man Christ which Jesus stated as such was flesh and bones 1 TIM. 2:5,lUKE 24:39

The creation's starting point.
john 1:1 bEGINNING IS FROM START OF CREATION.
Then from start of Creation was the Word, not a second person called Son.
Son did not create, but all things were created by (with him in view) and for (made for his and creations usage).


The Word is with God as you say. Harder still is understanding that God's thought or idea is God.
Is your word yours ? is your thoughts yours? is your words yours? is the written word of God, not his?
You cannot separate God from his Logos=Word.
EVEN WHEN IN TIME THE IDEA BECAME REAL AND WAS THE MAN/CHILD THE CHRIST.
That is modalistic Monarchianism.


Don't know Greek but verse 14 of the same paragraph says the Word became flesh. So the idea or thought that was God became flesh I would ***ume that is the only begotten Son who was sent to earth.
Answer, Son is not in the p***age and Logos is not person, but Word a idea, thought and expression of God idea made real and became flesh.

Trying to figure that out. John 17:22 NASB "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;" Just as We are one.

The son got glory for victory over death and that had been with God in his plan , and given to the MAN CHRIST, THE PROPITIATION FOR OUR SIN, THE REDEEMER, THE MAN WITH GOD, dwelling in him, JOHN 14:10-11, 2 Cor. 5:19, 1 Tim. 3:16

TOM BOOTS Apostolic Penetecostal.

[Tom Boots]

IS GOD, One person or three persons?
I SAY ONE, scripture supports me with *** 13:8 KJV O.T.
GAL. 3:20 AMPLIFIED "God is only one person".
Now give me a p***age that says God is three persons or called Trinity!
Why is it that Jews rejected that idea , the first and second century believers (MONARCHIANS=ONENESS) never used the Tritheistic language you people use?
Scripture and HISTORY, Grammar and Logic does your side in.
Just because you see smoke of a Trinity church, never meant there was any FIRE there.

[Tom Boots]

AS THE MAN CHRIST, THE EXPRESS IMAGE OF THAT INVISIBLE GOD, MADE VISIBLE.
HEB. 1:3
I hold that Jesus Christ would not grasp after divine prerogatives though his as God enfleshed, he would not make of himself any reputation and call himself openly God, Father, Spirit, Deity.
HE SPOKE IN PROVERBS JOHN 16:25.
God was in Christ 2 Cor.5;19
Christ was a man 1 Tim. 2:5

[MacG]

Originally Posted by Tom Boots

AS THE MAN CHRIST, THE EXPRESS IMAGE OF THAT INVISIBLE GOD, MADE VISIBLE.
HEB. 1:3
I hold that Jesus Christ would not grasp after divine prerogatives though his as God enfleshed, he would not make of himself any reputation and call himself openly God, Father, Spirit, Deity.
HE SPOKE IN PROVERBS JOHN 16:25.
God was in Christ 2 Cor.5;19
Christ was a man 1 Tim. 2:5

No one doubts the humanness of Jesus. The question remains: When did the thinking, self aware Christ Jesus exist in the form of God as opposed to the form of man?

"Have this attytude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, thought...humbled himself ... and being made in the likeness of men." NASB Phil2:5-7

"5 Have this attytude [e]in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be [f]grasped, 7 but [g]emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death [h]on a cross."

[Tom Boots]

Originally Posted by MacG

No one doubts the humanness of Jesus. The question remains: When did the thinking, self aware Christ Jesus exist in the form of God as opposed to the form of man?

The form of God was morphe, that God had no physical form as Spirit, his only form was his own body, his tabernacle of flesh.
Jesus Christ was the express image of the invisible God, Jesus was the Spirit God and Jesus begot a son a physical human of flesh, the Word was that plan or idea made real or flesh and was God's invisaging of a Son that did come or was sent a baby-child-man.

"Have this attytude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, thought...humbled himself ... and being made in the likeness of men." NASB Phil2:5-7

"5 Have this attytude [e]in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be [f]grasped, 7 but [g]emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death [h]on a cross."


GOD=Spirit was in Christ, God was not the Christ man, for God is not a man, but God counted that body as his and always will, he will not leave us, he will not forsake mankind, he will eternally dwell in a body he fashioned for himself, what he chose in his Logos, his plan his invisaging.
God said He was not a man, Jesus said God was Spirit, Jesus said Spirit {God} hath not flesh and bones as you see me have.
YET! Jesus was God, Jesus was the man, Jesus is that Spirit which dweils in his saints, Jesus is all.

Tom Boots Apostolic

[MacG]

Originally Posted by Tom Boots

IS GOD, One person or three persons?
I SAY ONE, scripture supports me with *** 13:8 KJV O.T.
GAL. 3:20 AMPLIFIED "God is only one person".
Now give me a p***age that says God is three persons or called Trinity!
Why is it that Jews rejected that idea , the first and second century believers (MONARCHIANS=ONENESS) never used the Tritheistic language you people use?
Scripture and HISTORY, Grammar and Logic does your side in.
Just because you see smoke of a Trinity church, never meant there was any FIRE there.

Your repeated use of "Tritheistic language" and "multiple gods" "three gods" shows one of two things, either you understand it and are falsely stating what Trinitarians believe through your interpretation of it or just do not understand it. Which is it? Bearing false witness or ignorance?

I do not stand for it when anyone on either side of a debate does so.

[Tom Boots]

Is there two other beings, persons, en***ies, Spirits with JESUS??
Do you believe that Jesus is all there is of God, that you are complete in him, that He is fully and completely thee e birdI HAVE BEEN IN YOUR CHURCHES, read your literature and books, heard your false preachers, seen deabtes where your men are left holding a bag of hammers and know that you all deny ONE TRUE GOD, THE FATHER and hold three god/gods, the Father God, your first person (your own kind came up with that), god the son or the god-man ( a ficticious deity, a junior miss, who is not God at all){and who you folks counted as the the second person} and lastly the third person god, the god the Holy Spirit a mute, who doesn't speak or carry on any speech.

I DON'T HOLD THOSE DOCTRINES, you do.

[MacG]

I am still not certain if you understand the doctrine and are just misrepresenting it or are just ******** about it. Is the statement what you understand it to be or are you embellishing? Words get their meaning by definition in their proper context so if you use persons interchangeably with Spirits and beings and ent ities it is not clear if you think they are the same or are carelessly using verbiage in a hand wavingly dismissive way because you do not believe it.

[MacG]

The form of God was morphe, that God had no physical form as Spirit, his only form was his own body, his tabernacle of flesh.
Jesus Christ was the express image of the invisible God, Jesus was the Spirit God and Jesus begot a son a physical human of flesh, the Word was that plan or idea made real or flesh and was God's invisaging of a Son that did come or was sent a baby-child-man.

If I understand you correctly, the idea was God. Correct?

If I am not mistaken morphe is a feminine noun.

[Tom Boots]

In the beginning was the Word=Logos and the Word=Logos was with or pertaining to God and the Word=Logoswas God.
Nota person with God, but his ideal, his plan, his envisaging, his thought was with him and it was him when it became to fruition.
Yes morphe is feminine noun and your point?

The problem which you have yest to reply to in a coupe of posts is that Trinitarians in John 1:1 must change the definition in mid stream of Theos God which you people give as the definition as Trinity when it is convenient and then here must change it to fit your idea of taking a round peg into a triangle shape hole.
You switch fromThree persons as your godhead to mean here God Father and a second being god in the verse of a god the son and the third god member is obviously missing.

SoGod is not aTrinity when you need into be and God is not the Father in all cases as scripture says it is and you conjure up two other god with a first person god and thus have three gods or god.

[Tom Boots]

Originally Posted by MacG

I am still not certain if you understand the doctrine and are just misrepresenting it or are just ******** about it. Is the statement what you understand it to be or are you embellishing? Words get their meaning by definition in their proper context so if you use persons interchangeably with Spirits and beings and ent ities it is not clear if you think they are the same or are carelessly using verbiage in a hand wavingly dismissive way because you do not believe it.

They must be biblical word and ideas and we should be able to see someone teaching it then and we do not.
We see Trinitarian Greek scholars of your camp try to insert ideas as Word is person, morphe is another person, persons are face to face and then not come away with the idea of multiple gods when only one true God exists, the FATHER.Jn 17:1-3.
I deny three persons, beings, spirits, en***ies as In a godhead as a composite deity, I see Jesus as all three, as filling and or fulfilling all roles, he is The Lord God Almighty, He is the Son of God the man Christ Jesus and He is the Spirit, the comforter which I dwells us and leads us.

I cannot find anyone teaching a Trinity, hinting at three persons, let alone speaking of such in the first(Bible century), nor at all in the second century, we must go to the third and a rather late century before men of your view come on the scene and speak of a Trinity!

You must pick and choose what you want from different men and they be forced to abandon them, like Theophilus ca 180 a.d. Justin Martyr, Origen and finally get someone to actually count a deity named Trinity In the 3rd century by Tertullian a philosopher, a excommunicated individual and who was not following the line in his day held by the majority of Monarchian aka Praxeans in his day as we see from Against PRAXEAS chapter 3.

[MacG]

Originally Posted by Tom Boots

In the beginning was the Word=Logos and the Word=Logos was with or pertaining to God and the Word=Logoswas God.
Nota person with God, but his ideal, his plan, his envisaging, his thought was with him and it was him when it became to fruition.

The confusing part of this is that I had an idea once and it was not me. I have in fact a lot of ideas, dreams, thoughts and none of them are me. How can God have and idea and it be Him?

Yes morphe is feminine noun and your point?

Sorry about that. I had to go back and reread something you said but I was wrong about it.

The problem which you have yest to reply to in a coupe of posts is that Trinitarians in John 1:1 must change the definition in mid stream of Theos God...

If I am not again mistaken I seem to recall asking you for the Greek grammar rules regarding the p***ages in question. I am not a Greek student. I know those who are and yet to bring them or their understanding of the grammar rules which allow for the standard translation that you and yours are kicking against.

You switch fromThree persons as your godhead to mean here God Father and a second being god in the verse of a god the son and the third god member is obviously missing.

SoGod is not aTrinity when you need into be and God is not the Father in all cases as scripture says it is and you conjure up two other god with a first person god and thus have three gods or god.

"Well, there you go again" (Ronald Reagan) There is only one God and yet you keep misrepresenting the Trinity doctrine as polytheism. Where's the R-E-S-P-E-C-T for diverse views? All it seems that you are trying is Sock it to me, Sock it to me, Sock it to me. Some Creationists have a hard time in science cl*** because they refuse to understand what their teachers are saying. Understanding and testing well on a given subject means that you comprehend it but it says nothing about having to believe it. The Breathearians are a people who believe that all nutrition is in the air, food is poison and we need to wean off of it. Having that understanding does not make me out to be supportive of such doctrines. But if I did not have that understanding I might make conclusions that they are the "Supreme White People that Breathe" Along with their offshoot "VeteranArians" (Who are really just animal doctors). Such such divisive word play would serve no purpose other than to insult them and if I knew better it would make me a false witness against my neighbor.

Not missing just not called out in 1:1 as there is but One God. This is danger of proof texting and the importance of the whole collection of writings. Luke tells us the Holy Spirit (it is so confusing when God uses all of these interactive personal pronouns for himself) was present where verse 14 of John 1 tells us that the Word was made flesh.

If you are going to argue against the Trinity at least use the the proper definitions. There is One God, but three persons who are addressed as God and in relationship to each other as demonstrated by the dialogues which take place amongst themselves as opposed to a one man play interchanging masks to create the illusion of relational dialogue where apparently there is none.

[Tom Boots]

Where is one God addressed as three persons ever?
Where are they called three persons in scripture and historically speaking who stated they wear three persons first?
Jesus?, an Apostle? Any disciple? Or a philosopher from the third century almost 200 yrs removed from Christ?

There is no misrepresenting the Trinity by me, there is me exposing it.
If someone called it or found some bible writer teaching it, I would have accepted and believed it, I can't and won't a lie from a Catholic Church which had blood on it's hands and which forced this Mithraic religion mixed with some Cgristian words to sooth the gentile pagans who held and hold a triad.

There is no Greek grammar rules for Jn 1:1 (you people think a common language and not in use had some rules every time, Robertson made up some but like he speaks in Gal. 3:20 it can have a broad and not only one meaning).
What did the English say?, where is Trinity language, why force something into the p***age and avoid the other three usages of pro ton theon , and make God with a god ?

I have no respect for false views, diverse views from scripture are lies, and I don't have to accept or even nod my head, that there can be a different view acceptable, for there is not.

Lastly your ideas and thoughts are yours, not someone else, let you die and they say they are your words, your thoughts as well ate yours, attributed to YOU, not a different beng, they pertain to you and God's Word the Logos was idea, before it became real and was clothed with a body of flesh and became Christ the man, I dwelt by the Father, the only true God.

[MacG]

There is no Greek grammar rules for Jn 1:1

Then how do you know that your tradition is right? No rules, seriously? All language has rules and exceptions to those rules but you want me to believe that this particular verse has no rules?

Lastly your ideas and thoughts are yours, not someone else, let you die and they say they are your words, your thoughts as well ate yours, attributed to YOU,

When I die no one is going to say MacG had a thought and the thought was MacG. The Word was God.

I dwelt by the Father, the only true God.

This is a thought speaking? A thought that knew it was not only with God but was God? For he thought it not robbery to be considered equal with God but humbled himself. An idea thinking it not robbery to be equal with God, gives up its stature submits to authority and casts aside the glory to be found in the form of a man. This is confusing.

[MacG]

They must be biblical word

Show me Monarchian in the Bible.

[Tom Boots]

Originally Posted by MacG

Show me Monarchian in the Bible.

We use it to identify ourselves from the false church MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
We use it as Christians to show we teach a MONO=1 ARCHY= RULER, as opposed to a fraud three beings ruling.

You people are called Trinitarians, because you believe in three beings working together to form a plurality of your god.
Your call your God Trinity, you say he is made up of three persons.
BIBLE does not say that.

We are called Monarchians because we hold just Jesus as God and Father.
ALONE, BY HIMSELF AND NOT KNOWING ANY OTHER GOD.

I DON'T CALL MY GOD MONARCHIAN OR GIVE HIM THE NAME MONARCHY, My God is Jesus by name.

[Tom Boots]

I didn't say NO rules, but you people make them up.
i.e. Sharp's rule and Trinitarians insinuating that Matthew 28:19 has Sharp's rule ***ociated with it, when in fact he never used that very important p***age to support his idea and about a Trinity using such., others tried to say it was so.
Seems awfully strange, Trinitarians want to believe certain rules till one smashes them in the face like GAL. 3:20 Grk. Grammar heis Theos a masculine one , meaning God cannot be a plurality, but singular a sole numeric one, as one person/man.
AS WELL PROS TON THEON usage actually in the scriptures and then changed.
Then we see you folks change your own definition and rules to suit you as in John 1;1 , the word God=Theos all of a sudden becomes what you want it to and that is GOD THE FATHER first person of the Trinity and the next time in the vefse GOD=THEOS becomes your god the son second person in the Trinity.

The reason no one will say MACG's thoughts is not MACG is because you are not Jesus.
The word Logos has a broad meaning, which includes the envisaging as well as what was spoken of, written about and made flesh.

God's Word =Logos is God is it not? You seem to reject that, because in your finite mind, you cannot see that Word is more than a Spoken Word, a written Word, it is a idea and Living Word.
wHY IS THAT SO HARD?
Before something is written, it is idea!
Before the Word became flesh, it was a plan or thought of God, HIS WORD, not someone else's and then in time that Word=Logos went from that idea and became real and walked amongst us and that Word was God (Be it thought, written, spoken, living).

You are now confusing Phil. 2:5-8 with John 1;1, you seem to want to insert separate persons so much, you are willing to confuse my words.

I never said a idea thinking was equal with God, nothing is equal with God, God is and there is not another or something other that equals him.
Jesus was the God, the man, the Spirit, three manifestations of his.
This idea of thought it not robbery to be equal to God , means he did not grasp after and try to rape as a man, which was God's.
AS THE MAN CHRIST, JESUS WOULD NOT AND COULD NOT DO SO.

[Tom Boots]

MACG, is God three persons? Do you believe God is a Trinity?
When you say God, tell me what do you mean or believe in.
I think that word Theos gets a false view from a Trinitarian and one that changes horses in mid stream.

[MacG]

Originally Posted by Tom Boots

I didn't say NO rules, but you people make them up.

In response to my question which grammar rules do you use you said "http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/s...455#post145455There is no Greek grammar rules for Jn 1:1" And went on to say the Robertson made some up.

So I ask again what are the greek grammar rules that you are using to come up with a variant translation from what is the dominant understanding?

I never said a idea thinking was equal with God, nothing is equal with God, God is and there is not another or something other that equals him.

It seems to me that your position is at variance with Phil 2:5-11 Jesus is thinking prior to exercising humility and willfully becoming human that it was not robbery to be considered equal with God. How does this pre-incarnate thought/idea have self aware reasoning ability?