Is a person a Christian if. . .

[Christian]

he kneels down, crosses himself, closes his eyes, clasps his hands, bows his head and says prayers (an act of worship) to anyone OTHER THAN GOD HIMSELF?

If he is praying to baal?
If he is praying to donald duck?
If he is praying to mary?

IS THIS ACT OF DEVOUT WORSHIP something a CHRISTIAN would do? Or is it something a catholic would do instead?

Christian

[Columcille]

Originally Posted by Christian

he kneels down, crosses himself, closes his eyes, clasps his hands, bows his head and says prayers (an act of worship) to anyone OTHER THAN GOD HIMSELF?

If he is praying to baal?
If he is praying to donald duck?
If he is praying to mary?

IS THIS ACT OF DEVOUT WORSHIP something a CHRISTIAN would do? Or is it something a catholic would do instead?

Christian

First of all, the bowing to dignitaries is not worship. If I genuflect to show respect to the monarchy of England, it is no more worship as it was to do similar forms of expression to King David. Distinguishing between divine worship and respect to others is a matter of degrees of authority. All prayer that is answered is of God, not of Mary or any other saint. A Catholic who attributes answered prayer to Mary is simply wrong. Now, God answers prayers and he listens to pe***ions of others. So a Catholic may attribute the intercession of a saint as to be a partial factor in God answering prayer.
Secondly, the word "pray" is not necessarily an act solely attributed to God alone. The word in Elizabethan English is "to ask" as perhaps a play by Shakespeare might say "I pray thee to do such and such." Certainly you would not say of Elizabethan English usage that people were worshiping others in the mere asking or pe***ioning of a duty.
So what you are observing and what you are attributing are two separate things. Do Catholic genuflect toward the mention of Mary? Yes, I see it happen during the Nicene Creed when it mentions Jesus being born of a Virgin. Does that mean that Mary is a 4th person of the Trinity to be given divine worship? No. But what you suggest is that all forms of worship is divine worship; if I praise my son for a good ***, do I worship my son? If I bow to a king, does that mean I worship that king? If I were hungry and pleading with another for food clasping my hands in begging, does that mean I worship the person I am asking food from? The thing that really separates divine worship from giving another praise or from physical acts of respect is that God as the supreme authority is that God is given his rightful due.
Now, when I say rightful due, you might want to counter and say we should never give another respect in the manner you suggest; but even if I write in a forum or play a game of chess, does these acts conflict to giving God praise? All activities of some sort could potentially rob God his rightful due, but I don't think it practical to think that prayer on one's knees is a 24/7 is possible.

[pilgrim1411]

Christians don't clap their hands and pray to Donald Duck. That would be an act of idolatry. I venerate (honor) the Theotokos. But I worship God alone. A Christian believes. Genuflections don't make one a Christian. It's what a Christian does.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by Columcille

First of all, the bowing to dignitaries is not worship. If I genuflect to show respect to the monarchy of England, it is no more worship as it was to do similar forms of expression to King David. Distinguishing between divine worship and respect to others is a matter of degrees of authority. All prayer that is answered is of God, not of Mary or any other saint. A Catholic who attributes answered prayer to Mary is simply wrong. Now, God answers prayers and he listens to pe***ions of others. So a Catholic may attribute the intercession of a saint as to be a partial factor in God answering prayer.
Secondly, the word "pray" is not necessarily an act solely attributed to God alone. The word in Elizabethan English is "to ask" as perhaps a play by Shakespeare might say "I pray thee to do such and such." Certainly you would not say of Elizabethan English usage that people were worshiping others in the mere asking or pe***ioning of a duty.
So what you are observing and what you are attributing are two separate things. Do Catholic genuflect toward the mention of Mary? Yes, I see it happen during the Nicene Creed when it mentions Jesus being born of a Virgin. Does that mean that Mary is a 4th person of the Trinity to be given divine worship? No. But what you suggest is that all forms of worship is divine worship; if I praise my son for a good ***, do I worship my son? If I bow to a king, does that mean I worship that king? If I were hungry and pleading with another for food clasping my hands in begging, does that mean I worship the person I am asking food from? The thing that really separates divine worship from giving another praise or from physical acts of respect is that God as the supreme authority is that God is given his rightful due.
Now, when I say rightful due, you might want to counter and say we should never give another respect in the manner you suggest; but even if I write in a forum or play a game of chess, does these acts conflict to giving God praise? All activities of some sort could potentially rob God his rightful due, but I don't think it practical to think that prayer on one's knees is a 24/7 is possible.

Greetings Columcille,

I must say that your above explanation is the most polite and coherent I've heard regarding veneration. Although I don't believe Mary or any Saints can see or hear these acts of respect as only God is omnipotent and omniscient, still I commend you for your thoughtful answer.

[Columcille]

56 Abraham your father rejoiced that he might see my day: he saw it and was glad.
57 The Jews therefore said to him: Thou art not yet fifty years old. And hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham was made, I AM.

The Holy Bible, Translated from the Latin Vulgate. (2009). (Jn 8:56–58). Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software.

I point this p***age out as an example of proof. How has Abraham seen Jesus, Abraham whose body is buried and decomposed? The point is that people's body's are dead, and so their mortal capacity of sense is not of a bodily type. The righteous souls have essence and before Christ's death they remained in Abraham's bosom that was across from Hades. Abraham's capacity to see Christ, even while dead in body, is a matter of knowledge derived from God's grace. Whether you believe it or not, that is a matter that I think you have not really conceived to think upon. Metaphysics and physics have different modes of sensory perception. While you live bodily in the flesh, you equate the physics of this realm to the realm after bodily death, what is sometimes called the intermediate state between bodily death and bodily resurrection. How we live when our souls reside in God prior to resurrection is the main question. The Seventh Day Adventist believe in soul sleep, where the soul in God has no consciousness. If the soul has consciousness, in what way does that consciousness derive its input without a body that has receptors like the tongue for taste, the nose for smell, the ear for hearing, the hand for touch, and to what degree can the soul retain or visualize that input and conceive and formulate thought?

[disciple]

Originally Posted by Columcille

56 Abraham your father rejoiced that he might see my day: he saw it and was glad.
57 The Jews therefore said to him: Thou art not yet fifty years old. And hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham was made, I AM.

The Holy Bible, Translated from the Latin Vulgate. (2009). (Jn 8:56–58). Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software.

I point this p***age out as an example of proof. How has Abraham seen Jesus, Abraham whose body is buried and decomposed? The point is that people's body's are dead, and so their mortal capacity of sense is not of a bodily type. The righteous souls have essence and before Christ's death they remained in Abraham's bosom that was across from Hades. Abraham's capacity to see Christ, even while dead in body, is a matter of knowledge derived from God's grace. Whether you believe it or not, that is a matter that I think you have not really conceived to think upon. Metaphysics and physics have different modes of sensory perception. While you live bodily in the flesh, you equate the physics of this realm to the realm after bodily death, what is sometimes called the intermediate state between bodily death and bodily resurrection. How we live when our souls reside in God prior to resurrection is the main question. The Seventh Day Adventist believe in soul sleep, where the soul in God has no consciousness. If the soul has consciousness, in what way does that consciousness derive its input without a body that has receptors like the tongue for taste, the nose for smell, the ear for hearing, the hand for touch, and to what degree can the soul retain or visualize that input and conceive and formulate thought?

Greetings,

Whether Abraham was given this vision of Jesus after he died in heaven or looked forward to the coming of the Messiah and believed and was glad, I cannot say.

"The ambition he had to see his day: He rejoiced, eµgalliasto—he leaped at it. The word, though it commonly signifies rejoicing, must here signify a transport of desire rather than of joy, for otherwise the latter part of the verse would be a tautology; he saw it, and was glad. He reached out, or stretched himself forth, that he might see my day; as Zaccheus, that ran before, and climbed the tree, to see Jesus. The notices he had received of the Messiah to come had raised in him an expectation of something great, which he earnestly longed to know more of." Matthew Henry Complete

To say that believers who have gone to heaven, no matter who or what their status was on earth, can hear prayers, discern respect or intercede in any fashion at best remains an unanswerable question. What we can say is that no one has any divine attributes nor does anyone share any power or authority with Jesus.

[Columcille]

It is unanswered for your likes and your frame of mind. What happens in the intermediate state between bodily death and bodily resurrection? To me the implications of this question goes the fact that those who are dead are not really dead but alive in Christ even when their bodies are asleep in a grave. The relationship for me is within the Apostle's Creed regarding the "communion of saints" and that there are p***ages such as in Revelations of prayers like incense being offered up to God by the elders. Perhaps you would like to take up the Seventh Day Adventist position of soul sleep, since you seem to suggest more that by an inability of knowledge that it is best to believe saints in heaven have no capacity of receiving knowledge without a body. But then again, what kind of bodies do angel's have or of demons if they parade as ghostly spirits. The nature of our state in God questions to me the ability of God to grant knowledge, especially when in God there is completeness of knowledge. The love chapter of 1 Cor. 13 seems to suggest we know in part, but when our souls return to God, are they still lacking in the presence of God, who is divine love itself? Hence, for me, this is directly more against's God's nature than it is about a particular saint in heaven.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by Columcille

It is unanswered for your likes and your frame of mind. What happens in the intermediate state between bodily death and bodily resurrection? To me the implications of this question goes the fact that those who are dead are not really dead but alive in Christ even when their bodies are asleep in a grave. The relationship for me is within the Apostle's Creed regarding the "communion of saints" and that there are p***ages such as in Revelations of prayers like incense being offered up to God by the elders. Perhaps you would like to take up the Seventh Day Adventist position of soul sleep, since you seem to suggest more that by an inability of knowledge that it is best to believe saints in heaven have no capacity of receiving knowledge without a body. But then again, what kind of bodies do angel's have or of demons if they parade as ghostly spirits. The nature of our state in God questions to me the ability of God to grant knowledge, especially when in God there is completeness of knowledge. The love chapter of 1 Cor. 13 seems to suggest we know in part, but when our souls return to God, are they still lacking in the presence of God, who is divine love itself? Hence, for me, this is directly more against's God's nature than it is about a particular saint in heaven.

Hello Columcille,

It is true that we are alive in Christ and for the believer absent from the body means present with the Lord. I do not doubt the ability of those gone to be with the Lord to have knowledge, for to be less in heaven than we were on earth would be a foolish premise. I do not doubt God's ability to grant knowledge to anyone He chooses to, in heaven or on earth. God does whatever He pleases. What I do doubt is the Catholic church's conclusions regarding those saints who are with the Lord. 1 Tim 2:5 tells us "For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus", so the saints are not there to mediate. In Matthew chap 6 Jesus tells us to Whom and in what manner we should pray and it does not include directing prayers to those saints in heaven. According to Isaiah 42:8 God will not give His glory nor share His praise with anyone or anything on earth or in heaven. This is not to say that those who have gone before us who were obedient to God's will and plan should not be respected and we should continue to encourage one another by recounting their deeds.

[Columcille]

When we pray for others here on earth, we are not mediating; what it is called is intercessory prayer. James talks about the prayer of a righteous man avails much and cites the example of Elias not praying for rain. Elias is not responsible for the rain not falling, but God is in control. The mediation of Christ is the only means of our redemption. No good Catholic would make such an ***umption. There are words that might be misconstrued by Protestants, but they would be taking the such terms out of context. For instance, Mediatix as it applies to the Blessed Virgin Mary does not mean she is our mediator between God and Man, that solely belongs to the incarnate Christ. The term is quoted in Lunem Gentium 62 and I have here enclosed it for your benefit and included the link:

62. This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.(15*) By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and cultics, until they are led into the happiness of their true home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the ***les of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix.(16*) This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator.(17*)

For no creature could ever be counted as equal with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer. Just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by the ministers and by the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is really communicated in different ways to His creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.

The Church does not hesitate to profess this subordinate role of Mary. It knows it through unfailing experience of it and commends it to the hearts of the faithful, so that encouraged by this maternal help they may the more intimately adhere to the Mediator and Redeemer.

Moses mediated between Israel and God, but he didn't bring eternal salvation; in many respects while we are both alive and in heaven, our roles are not stagnant but as much active.

[tdidymas]

Originally Posted by Columcille

56 Abraham your father rejoiced that he might see my day: he saw it and was glad.
57 The Jews therefore said to him: Thou art not yet fifty years old. And hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham was made, I AM.

The Holy Bible, Translated from the Latin Vulgate. (2009). (Jn 8:56–58). Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software.

I point this p***age out as an example of proof. How has Abraham seen Jesus, Abraham whose body is buried and decomposed? The point is that people's body's are dead, and so their mortal capacity of sense is not of a bodily type. The righteous souls have essence and before Christ's death they remained in Abraham's bosom that was across from Hades. Abraham's capacity to see Christ, even while dead in body, is a matter of knowledge derived from God's grace. Whether you believe it or not, that is a matter that I think you have not really conceived to think upon. Metaphysics and physics have different modes of sensory perception. While you live bodily in the flesh, you equate the physics of this realm to the realm after bodily death, what is sometimes called the intermediate state between bodily death and bodily resurrection. How we live when our souls reside in God prior to resurrection is the main question. The Seventh Day Adventist believe in soul sleep, where the soul in God has no consciousness. If the soul has consciousness, in what way does that consciousness derive its input without a body that has receptors like the tongue for taste, the nose for smell, the ear for hearing, the hand for touch, and to what degree can the soul retain or visualize that input and conceive and formulate thought?

When Jesus said this about Abraham, He was referring to Gen. 15:5-6 in which Abraham believed God, and Jesus looked further into it by saying he "rejoiced." This is affirmed to us by Paul in Gal. 3:16 (speaking of the same context) when the SEED referred to in Gen. 15:5 is Christ. So when Abraham believed God, according to what is explained to us by Jesus and Paul, he was believing in Christ, thus Jesus said he "saw My day." So the sight of Abraham Jesus was referring to was foresight. Abraham 'saw' the day of Christ on that day in Gen. 15:5-6 when God made him the promise of the coming Messiah by stating he would be Abraham's seed (singular).

So then, we have clear explanation from scripture what Jesus meant by His statement. Since the Bible has no indication of any metaphysical knowledge of anyone after death, any interpretation to that effect is pure speculation, and should be rejected in favor of scriptural explanation.
TD

[Christian]

[QUOTE=Columcille;151304]First of all, the bowing to dignitaries is not worship. If I genuflect to show respect to the monarchy of England, it is no more worship as it was to do similar forms of expression to King David

Let's see now. . .do you kneel down, bow your head, cross yourself, close your eyes, clasp your hands and repeat PRAYERS to said monarchy of England? I dare say you would NOT!

Each individual act may be done in other circumstances, but you cannot deny that the combination is WORSHIP. Do you do MORE than that when you worship during the m***? Not counting the time your priest acts as a magician and magically 'transforms the toast' of course. . .

Distinguishing between divine worship and respect to others is a matter of degrees of authority.

What authority does your cult have to tell you to pray to non-gods?

All prayer that is answered is of God, not of Mary or any other saint.

So when you pray to mary asking her to pray for you, you don't expect mary to pray for you? I see. . .

A Catholic who attributes answered prayer to Mary is simply wrong. Now, God answers prayers and he listens to pe***ions of others. So a Catholic may attribute the intercession of a saint as to be a partial factor in God answering prayer.

Then why in scripture did nobody pray to John the Baptist after he was beheaded? Why in the first century did nobody write that they prayed to ANYONE other than to God Himself? Your cult is demonic, getting you to pray to non-gods such as peter, paul, mary, baal, or donald duck. And all prayers to ANY of them are of equal value. . .HERESY.

Secondly, the word "pray" is not necessarily an act solely attributed to God alone. The word in Elizabethan English is "to ask" as perhaps a play by Shakespeare might say "I pray thee to do such and such." Certainly you would not say of Elizabethan English usage that people were worshiping others in the mere asking or pe***ioning of a duty.

Privvy, hath thou bespoken Elizabethan English thye whol lyfe?

HOGWASH! NOBODY speaks that way today. Your strawman argument is stupid beyond belief, imho!

So what you are observing and what you are attributing are two separate things.

No they aren't. BOTH are deeply devotional acts of religious worship. They are exactly the same things you do when you attend your m***. And you likely consider your attendance at m*** to be 'worship,' as you do EXACTLY THE SAME KIND OF THING.

Do Catholic genuflect toward the mention of Mary? Yes, I see it happen during the Nicene Creed when it mentions Jesus being born of a Virgin.

I don't care if you see your fellow catholics standing on their heads at the mention of mary or the creeds.

Does that mean that Mary is a 4th person of the Trinity to be given divine worship? No. But what you suggest is that all forms of worship is divine worship;

Jesus said it rightly to satan:
Matt 4:10
10 Then Jesus said to him, "Away with you, Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.'"
NKJV



if I praise my son for a good ***, do I worship my son? If I bow to a king, does that mean I worship that king?

Nope, but if you you kneel down, bow your head, cross yourself, close your eyes, clasp your hands and repeat PRAYERS to them you are worshiping them. WOULD YOU REALLY DO ALL OF THAT TO THEM?

If I were hungry and pleading with another for food clasping my hands in begging, does that mean I worship the person I am asking food from?

Nope, but if you you kneel down, bow your head, cross yourself, close your eyes, clasp your hands and repeat PRAYERS to them you are worshiping him too. WOULD YOU REALLY DO ALL OF THAT TO HIM?

The thing that really separates divine worship from giving another praise or from physical acts of respect is that God as the supreme authority is that God is given his rightful due.

So if you kneel down, bow your head, cross yourself, close your eyes, clasp your hands and repeat PRAYERS to them you are worshiping someone, but say "Praise God! at the end, that's okay? PURE NONSENSE!

You've been conned by your cult!

in Jesus,
fish

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Christian

he kneels down, crosses himself, closes his eyes, clasps his hands, bows his head and says prayers (an act of worship) to anyone OTHER THAN GOD HIMSELF?

If he is praying to baal?
If he is praying to donald duck?
If he is praying to mary?

IS THIS ACT OF DEVOUT WORSHIP something a CHRISTIAN would do? Or is it something a catholic would do instead?

Christian

First.....Im sure God gets his mail, even if we dont put the right address on our prayers...


But as to the real topic here, and the prayers to Mary that the catholics are known to do?
I believe any time you bring up the person of Mary, or some other person like a Saint you only tend to increase the distance you feel between you and your Lord.


its like when a person has a real need in their life, Im sure they pray to god abut it, but I have seen how some with then turn and also pray to Mary about it in a type of effort to get Mary to go before god with their request.

The end result is that the person doing the paying has tried to put someone between themselves and the Lord..


and that is not a good thing to do.

[alanmolstad]

and.....

we are saved by grace though faith.
So this means that God looks at our faith, not our works....and so the bowing and the crossing or any of that stuff people do is not what makes a person saved or a christian.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

and.....

we are saved by grace though faith.
So this means that God looks at our faith, not our works....and so the bowing and the crossing or any of that stuff people do is not what makes a person saved or a christian.

there are two different forms of Justification listed in the Bible, one of "faith" and one of "works".

The justification by works is before men.
men can only see your faith by looking at your works.

However the Justification by Faith is before God. For men are saved by grace though FAITH, and not by works!