different yet in union.

[alanmolstad]

How was I saved?

What is the chain of events?

Who did what?....Who did what first?

Now personally I never had an issue with the means of salvation that men receive....but there are a few of us that really get themselves in a bunch over the question of "Freewill vs God's sovereignty" ?

But I'm not bible scholar, however I can tell you how I look at the question and how it works that there are two different points of view on the issue, both are very different, yet both work hand-in-hand with each other and are in union.


Its like-
You are the p***enger on a large ship.
you have the right to walk around the deck of the ship in any direction you want.
Clockwise, counter clockwise, it makes NO DIFFERENCE!.

The ship is not effected by your freewill ....the ship is not challenged by allowing you this amount of freewill to decided for yourself what direction you want to walk around the ship.

and...regardless of what direction you pick to walk, the real direction that the ship of sailing is totally unaffected!.

Who gave you this freedom to decide what direction to walk?.....the Skipper of the ship.

The Skipper is always the guy in full control of the direction of the ship.
The Skipper's word is LAW on the ship....

The Skipper's control of the ship is not in the slightest bit threatened by the freewill of a p***enger to walk whatever direction around the deck he wants.....






That is what my salvation is like, and how my freewill works hand-in-hand with the lord's sovereignty.

[alanmolstad]

Now, we are going to talk about the 2 different points of view I talked about...


1st as seen from my point of view as a p***enger, I have freewill.

I decide for myself if I want to walk around the deck.

No person tells me what to do...the direction I pick to walk in is only my own decision.
No giant hand from above controls my actions....

Nothing is set in stone.....nothing is known before it happens.

[alanmolstad]

Now seen from the point of view of the Skipper.

The ship, the p***engers, and everything, is totally under the Skipper's control.

my actions are always subject to the Skippers will.
I don't do one thing that is outside the Skipper's authority.

the freedom of a p***enger to walk around the deck is only allowed because the Skipper allows it.

The direction the p***enger walks on the deck does not change the direction of the ship the p***enger sails on.

If the Skipper has decided that the p***enger will get to a port at such and such a date, that's the law and the freedom of the p***enger to walk around the deck does noting to interfere with this.

the p***enger can walk to the left, or to the right, it does not matter, for this does not change the time the Skipper has set for the ship to get where its going.....

[alanmolstad]

What does this all mean then?


It means that I have freewill....and yet my freewill is never a threat to the Lord's sovereignty.

[alanmolstad]

So thats how it works with the question of our salvation.

We have freewill.
The Bible tells us that unless we repent and draw close to God we will die in our sins.
The Lord instructed his church to go into all the world and make Disciples...

Because we cant see men's hearts, we must look and judge people by their works.

If a person asks if someone is a Christian?..I would have to judge their faith by the works that show in the person's life.
Do they belong to a good christian church?
Are they baptized?
Do they share their faith in such a way as to show they know what the faith is?
Do their actions reflect the life of Christ and the way God's Grace changes people?

All these are the normal ways a person looks at to see and judge if another is truly Born Again and a saved christian or not.


We have to use such tools because we dont know the future...we dont know the heart...we dont know what things have happened or will happen in the secret hearts of men.


All these things are true , and yet are not the way God looks at this issue at all.....

[theway]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Now seen from the point of view of the Skipper.

The ship, the p***engers, and everything, is totally under the Skipper's control.

my actions are always subject to the Skippers will.
I don't do one thing that is outside the Skipper's authority.

the freedom of a p***enger to walk around the deck is only allowed because the Skipper allows it.

The direction the p***enger walks on the deck does not change the direction of the ship the p***enger sails on.

If the Skipper has decided that the p***enger will get to a port at such and such a date, that's the law and the freedom of the p***enger to walk around the deck does noting to interfere with this.

the p***enger can walk to the left, or to the right, it does not matter, for this does not change the time the Skipper has set for the ship to get where its going.....

One small problem... What if I wanted to use my free will to jump ship?

[alanmolstad]

Now God looks at the universe differently.


God knows the end from the beginning.
God does not 'find out" stuff...Gid does not learn new things....God does not change from one thing to another.

God does not age, never knows the p***ing of time, does not have a "next" moment.

Therefore, before I was born, God already saw me, knew me, loved me...

And my salvation was never in doubt with God.
God did not have to "hope" I one day believed...God knew this from the beginning as it was always this way in his plan before the universe was created.

Nothing was left to "chance"

Nothing was left for me to "decide"

My salvation was set in stone before the universe was created, and nothing , nothing, nothing can ever change this.

[alanmolstad]

So.....Im like the p***enger on the ship.

I both have freedom to control my actions, yet Im not in control and never will be.


I have the freedom, yet my freedom does not take away the sovereignty of God in even the slightest way.

God's sovereignty takes into account my freewill.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by theway

One small problem... What if I wanted to use my free will to jump ship?

Doesnt matter,
The ship (your life/ the universe) still under the authority of the Skipper at all times.

Nothing you do....be a good person, be a bad person, walk to the left, walk to the right NOTHING you will ever do ever takes away the authority of the Skipper over His ship...

in the universe the word of God is ALWAYS law.....


if you disagree?..fine, then do something that takes away God's authority over this universe......try it....
It cant be done!

You will always be under the authority of God no matter how far you travel....no matter how high you climb....or how deep a sea you sink in...there you still will find God there

[theway]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Doesnt matter,
The ship (your life/ the universe) still under the authority of the Skipper at all times.

Nothing you do....be a good person, be a bad person, walk to the left, walk to the right NOTHING you will ever do ever takes away the authority of the Skipper over His ship...

in the universe the word of God is ALWAYS law.....


if you disagree?..fine, then do something that takes away God's authority over this universe......try it....
It cant be done!

You will always be under the authority of God no matter how far you travel....no matter how high you climb....or how deep a sea you sink in...there you still will find God there

My question was related to one's free will.
If the Skipper wants me on the ship but I decide to jump ship, will he take away my free Will and stop me?

[alanmolstad]

again doesnt matter...the actions of men do not cause god to lose authority over the universe....

if they did then you would be worshiping the wrong god.

so we have both freewill and are subject to god's will for our lives.

[alanmolstad]

thus we are commanded to repent and believe, knowing that unless we do we are lost.

And when we do believe and are saved we find that god was in control of our lives the whole time and that our salvation was never for a moment in doubt in his plans

[alanmolstad]

so in my story the ship represents your life.

In your life you are granted many freedoms.
Your freewill is such a thing that god grants you.
You have to have freewill because without it you are unable to return God's love.

But as the ship is your life you also know that we dont set the speed and direction of our ship, but that only God is in the control of such...and so we have to have faith in him and in his love that "He will do what is best"

[alanmolstad]

thats the key thing here....are you able to just allow God to have full control of your life?

are you able to say like *** did in the Bible story about him - "Even if God slays me, yet will I bless His name"*


To trust in a God that is actually in control of the universe, sufferings and all.....that's the challenge of the book of ***






* well , he more or less says this

[theway]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

again doesnt matter...the actions of men do not cause god to lose authority over the universe....

if they did then you would be worshiping the wrong god.

Once again... I only said we are talking about MY free will not whether God is sovereign.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

so we have both freewill and are subject to god's will for our lives.

Not so according to you scenario.

I asked that if the skipper's will was that I stay on the ship, yet my will was to jump ship, then whose will wins?

[alanmolstad]

One of the main problems with people seeing how God's authority does not get in the way of man's freewill is due to a very painfull issue that the people have with their personal image of God.

To put it bluntly....they dont trust God.


they dont want God to be in control of the universe because they dont want to think God is in control of their own life, because they dont trust their image of who God is.....


They may have been taught that God is not up to actually running the whole universe?
they may have misgivings about God being too busy to run everything correctly?

or, they may just think God is to small?


But it comes down to a matter of trust, and there just are some people that dont want to trust god with their whole lives.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by theway

.

I asked that if the skipper's will was that I stay on the ship, yet my will was to jump ship, then whose will wins?

again, nothing you do, ever takes away the sovereignty of God over the universe....NOTHING!.....

in my story what can the p***enger do that takes away the Skippers command of the ship?...NOTHING!


jump in?....nope

Run around the deck nude?.....nope

**** your own head off with a shotgun?.....nope...


The ship stands for your life in my story....and you have many freedoms with it.
We enjoy much freewill.

But the skipper is always the skipper...God is always God....and the universe is always His and his alone.

[alanmolstad]

So my salvation was always ***ured 100%.....nothing was ever left in doubt in God's eyes.

[alanmolstad]

But in my eyes, my salvation was due to the calling I heard and responded to...I heard the knock of the Lord on my heart, and I opened the door of my life to him...

and in that moment I was saved....Not a moment before,

[alanmolstad]

That same knock is heard by others.....perhaps by you too?

I dont know for sure, as i dont know your heart.

I can only show you what i have seen and learned and try to p*** on to others as best i can...

[theway]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

One of the main problems with people seeing how God's authority does not get in the way of man's freewill is due to a very painfull issue that the people have with their personal image of God.

To put it bluntly....they dont trust God.


they dont want God to be in control of the universe because they dont want to think God is in control of their own life, because they dont trust their image of who God is.....


They may have been taught that God is not up to actually running the whole universe?
they may have misgivings about God being too busy to run everything correctly?

or, they may just think God is to small?


But it comes down to a matter of trust, and there just are some people that dont want to trust god with their whole lives.

Whether or not I trust God was not germane to my question.

[theway]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

again, nothing you do, ever takes away the sovereignty of God over the universe....NOTHING!.....

in my story what can the p***enger do that takes away the Skippers command of the ship?...NOTHING!


jump in?....nope

Run around the deck nude?.....nope

**** your own head off with a shotgun?.....nope...


The ship stands for your life in my story....and you have many freedoms with it.
We enjoy much freewill.

But the skipper is always the skipper...God is always God....and the universe is always His and his alone.

And who is going to stop me if I want to jump ship?
And who is going to stop me if I want to run around the ship nude?
And who is going to stop me if I want to **** my head off?

It sounds more and more like I have no free will to do what I want to do, and that the Skipper/God is forcing me to bend to His will by taking away mine?

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by theway

Whether or not I trust God was not germane to my question.

What do the Huns got to do with the question?

[theway]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

What do the Huns got to do with the question?

ger·mane
jərˈmān/
adjective
1.
relevant to a subject under consideration.
"that is not germane to our theme"


Unless of course you were just trying to be clever/funny, if that was the case then you failed yet again.
You need to watch some more Monty Python shows to get a clue.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by theway

ger·mane
jərˈmān/
adjective
1.
relevant to a subject under consideration.
"that is not germane to our theme"


Unless of course you were just trying to be clever/funny, if that was the case then you failed yet again.
You need to watch some more Monty Python shows to get a clue.

Okay then, what does Monty Python got to do with Salvation? Wait, don't tell me.