Eternal Security

[disciple]

Eternal Security is an interesting topic and of course it must start with salvation. I think most believers agree on what true salvation is but many disagree on the security of the believer. If we look at how Jesus viewed salvation, and we can because we have the Gospels, we have salvation from God's viewpoint - which is a far more advantageous place to view things from. Look at what Jesus said;
“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.” John 6:37-39
Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. He went on to say, “ But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” John 6:64-65
So from the divine viewpoint, we see that believers are actually a gift from the Father, to the Son. It is the Father that enables people to come to Jesus to be saved. And not only that, but of those that the Father gives Jesus, He has specifically said that He will lose none, not one. Jesus will not lose any believers that the Father gives Him. He will lose none, but will raise them all up on the last day.

Ok, some people will say we cannot be snatched out of his hand but can we decide to leave? Firstly, would a truly born-again believer ever want to lose his salvation? And secondly, if for some strange reason a person did want 'to leave', where could they go to get away from the one who now indwells them until the day of redemption? I personally do not believe that a true born again believer would ever 'want to leave' or lose their salvation. The fruit of a true salvation is shown by the fact that they do persevere to the end. When some who followed Jesus began to leave because they thought His teaching was too hard, Jesus asked the apostles if they would leave also. Peter answered this way, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:68-69
What believer who realized his need for a Savior, and you must realize that need, would walk away? This does not mean that there are not times of doubt, or even backsliding in the life of a true believer, but God does not stop working in the lives of such people and the Holy Spirit does not leave them. I welcome your comments.

[Saxon]

Eternal Security is an interesting topic and of course it must start with salvation. I think most believers agree on what true salvation is but many disagree on the security of the believer. If we look at how Jesus viewed salvation, and we can because we have the Gospels, we have salvation from God's viewpoint - which is a far more advantageous place to view things from. Look at what Jesus said;

“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.” John 6:37-39

Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. He went on to say, “ But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” John 6:64-65

So from the divine viewpoint, we see that believers are actually a gift from the Father, to the Son. It is the Father that enables people to come to Jesus to be saved. And not only that, but of those that the Father gives Jesus, He has specifically said that He will lose none, not one. Jesus will not lose any believers that the Father gives Him. He will lose none, but will raise them all up on the last day.

You are still barking up the wrong tree. The scripture is totally clear that Jesus will lose none that the Father has given him. Jesus losing the saved is not the problem. The problem is made clear in Hebrews 3:12. The problem is Christians departing from the living God. The longer you keep looking at what God has already said won’t happen the less likely you will come to realize what the problem actually is.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Ok, some people will say we cannot be snatched out of his hand but can we decide to leave? Firstly, would a truly born-again believer ever want to lose his salvation? And secondly, if for some strange reason a person did want 'to leave', where could they go to get away from the one who now indwells them until the day of redemption? I personally do not believe that a true born again believer would ever 'want to leave' or lose their salvation. The fruit of a true salvation is shown by the fact that they do persevere to the end. When some who followed Jesus began to leave because they thought His teaching was too hard, Jesus asked the apostles if they would leave also. Peter answered this way, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:68-69

What believer who realized his need for a Savior, and you must realize that need, would walk away? This does not mean that there are not times of doubt, or even backsliding in the life of a true believer, but God does not stop working in the lives of such people and the Holy Spirit does not leave them. I welcome your comments.

When a person is a believer they do not want to lose their salvation. There is a devil that is out there trying to deceive and deceiving those that believe. It is the lost that are already deceived but the saved are the targets for deception. (See Deuteronomy 11:16, Luke 21:8, and 2 Timothy 3:13) If it were not possible for the saved to be deceived, then why the warnings to Christians to be not deceived? 1 Peter 5:8 warns us that the devil is out to devour anyone that he can. The lost are already devoured.

The Christians that are the saved at the first resurrection did persevere to the end but there those that started off but did not persevere to the end. Luke 8:13 states this clearly. They received the word with joy and after a while they fall away.

When they fall away the Holy Spirit leaves them as they are not saved any longer. There is no scripture that says the Holy Spirit will stay in a person that has gone back to sin. The Holy Spirit will continue to convict that person that has fallen away but he does not dwell in sinners.

Deuteronomy 11:16 Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them;

Luke 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by Saxon

You are still barking up the wrong tree. The scripture is totally clear that Jesus will lose none that the Father has given him. Jesus losing the saved is not the problem. The problem is made clear in Hebrews 3:12. The problem is Christians departing from the living God. The longer you keep looking at what God has already said won’t happen the less likely you will come to realize what the problem actually is.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.





When a person is a believer they do not want to lose their salvation. There is a devil that is out there trying to deceive and deceiving those that believe. It is the lost that are already deceived but the saved are the targets for deception. (See Deuteronomy 11:16, Luke 21:8, and 2 Timothy 3:13) If it were not possible for the saved to be deceived, then why the warnings to Christians to be not deceived? 1 Peter 5:8 warns us that the devil is out to devour anyone that he can. The lost are already devoured.

The Christians that are the saved at the first resurrection did persevere to the end but there those that started off but did not persevere to the end. Luke 8:13 states this clearly. They received the word with joy and after a while they fall away.

When they fall away the Holy Spirit leaves them as they are not saved any longer. There is no scripture that says the Holy Spirit will stay in a person that has gone back to sin. The Holy Spirit will continue to convict that person that has fallen away but he does not dwell in sinners.

Deuteronomy 11:16 Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them;

Luke 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Hi Saxon and thanks for your reply.
Ok so just so I am clear, are you saying that the responsability for staying saved lies soley with the Christian? It seems you believe that God will not take salvation away nor will Jesus lose any that are given to Him, so the only other conclusion is that a Christian becomes lost again by something he does. Is this correct?

[Saxon]

If a person stops being a Christian, as in departing from the living God. (See Hebrews 3:12)

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by Saxon

If a person stops being a Christian, as in departing from the living God. (See Hebrews 3:12)

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Hi Saxon,
Ok lets look at the scripture you referenced but with verses 13-14 also to see the complete thought.
“Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end”

Ask yourself this question: If verse 14 says, "We have become partakers of Christ [in the past], if we [in the future] hold fast our ***urance," then what conclusion should we draw if we do not hold fast our ***urance (in the past)? I believe the answer is: Then we have not become partakers of Christ. It would be wrong to say, "If we do not hold fast our ***urance, then even though we were once partakers of Christ, nevertheless now we lose our part in Christ." That is the opposite of what this verse says. It says, We have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast our ***urance to the end; and if we do not hold fast to our ***urance to the end, then we have not become a partaker of Christ. Not holding fast to our ***urance does not make us lose our salvation; it shows that we were not truly saved.

In other words persevering in faith and hope, holding fast to your confidence in God, is not a way to keep from losing your standing in Christ; it is a way of showing that you have a standing in Christ. That standing can never be lost, because you have it by the free grace of God, and because Christ has promised with a covenant and an oath to keep those who are his. Hebrews 6:17-20 says this,
“God also bound himself with an oath, so that those who received the promise could be perfectly sure that he would never change his mind. So God has given both his promise and his oath. These two things are unchangeable because it is impossible for God to lie. Therefore, we who have fled to him for refuge can have great confidence as we hold to the hope that lies before us. This hope is a strong and trustworthy anchor for our souls. It leads us through the curtain into God’s inner sanctuary. Jesus has already gone in there for us. He has become our eternal High Priest in the order of Melchizedek.”

[Saxon]

Hi Saxon,
Ok lets look at the scripture you referenced but with verses 13-14 also to see the complete thought.
“Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end”

Ask yourself this question: If verse 14 says, "We have become partakers of Christ [in the past], if we [in the future] hold fast our ***urance," then what conclusion should we draw if we do not hold fast our ***urance (in the past)? I believe the answer is: Then we have not become partakers of Christ. It would be wrong to say, "If we do not hold fast our ***urance, then even though we were once partakers of Christ, nevertheless now we lose our part in Christ." That is the opposite of what this verse says. It says, We have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast our ***urance to the end; and if we do not hold fast to our ***urance to the end, then we have not become a partaker of Christ. Not holding fast to our ***urance does not make us lose our salvation; it shows that we were not truly saved.

In other words persevering in faith and hope, holding fast to your confidence in God, is not a way to keep from losing your standing in Christ; it is a way of showing that you have a standing in Christ. That standing can never be lost, because you have it by the free grace of God, and because Christ has promised with a covenant and an oath to keep those who are his. Hebrews 6:17-20 says this,
“God also bound himself with an oath, so that those who received the promise could be perfectly sure that he would never change his mind. So God has given both his promise and his oath. These two things are unchangeable because it is impossible for God to lie. Therefore, we who have fled to him for refuge can have great confidence as we hold to the hope that lies before us. This hope is a strong and trustworthy anchor for our souls. It leads us through the curtain into God’s inner sanctuary. Jesus has already gone in there for us. He has become our eternal High Priest in the order of Melchizedek.”

It cannot mean that we have not become partakers of Christ because the text is clearly stating that we have become partakers of Christ. If we hold fast our confidence steadfast to the end is the condition of salvation. If we do not hold steadfast our confidence to the end it is because we or they have departed from the living God. You cannot depart from where you never were.

You stated, “In other words persevering in faith and hope, holding fast to your confidence in God, is not a way to keep from losing your standing in Christ”. I ask you, why is it not? After all it is telling us to hold steadfast to our confidence. If you do not hold steadfast to our confidence doesn’t mean you didn’t have it, it means you let go of what you had.

Just because something is given as a gift does not mean that you can’t lose it. You seem to still be hinting that God some how takes salvation away from you if YOU lose it. We have gone over this before; God does not take back salvation. We are the ones that depart from the living God. We are the problem and we are the ones that do the losing by way of departing from the living God. Christ does keep those that are his. If we depart from the living God then we are no longer his. We are not prisoners and God does not force anyone to come to him or stay with him. You don’t seem to absorb the fact that Christians can and do depart from the living God. (See Hebrews 3:12) As long as you remain in Christ you are eternally secure. If you depart from the living God you are no longer eternally secure as you have departed from eternal life that is in his son. (See 1John 5:11)


Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Hebrews 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Hebrews 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Hebrews 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

1John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by Saxon

It cannot mean that we have not become partakers of Christ because the text is clearly stating that we have become partakers of Christ. If we hold fast our confidence steadfast to the end is the condition of salvation. If we do not hold steadfast our confidence to the end it is because we or they have departed from the living God. You cannot depart from where you never were.

You stated, “In other words persevering in faith and hope, holding fast to your confidence in God, is not a way to keep from losing your standing in Christ”. I ask you, why is it not? After all it is telling us to hold steadfast to our confidence. If you do not hold steadfast to our confidence doesn’t mean you didn’t have it, it means you let go of what you had.

Just because something is given as a gift does not mean that you can’t lose it. You seem to still be hinting that God some how takes salvation away from you if YOU lose it. We have gone over this before; God does not take back salvation. We are the ones that depart from the living God. We are the problem and we are the ones that do the losing by way of departing from the living God. Christ does keep those that are his. If we depart from the living God then we are no longer his. We are not prisoners and God does not force anyone to come to him or stay with him. You don’t seem to absorb the fact that Christians can and do depart from the living God. (See Hebrews 3:12) As long as you remain in Christ you are eternally secure. If you depart from the living God you are no longer eternally secure as you have departed from eternal life that is in his son. (See 1John 5:11)


Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Hebrews 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Hebrews 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Hebrews 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

1John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

Hi Saxon,
"No one else can pluck them away, but a believer himself can do it." Think about what you are purposing; that a true Christian has more power than anyone else in the universe. No one, and that includes the sheep can remove himself from the Shepherd's strong grip. In view of such ***urance, it is odd that people should surmise that a true sheep of Christ could or would decide that he doesn't want to be a sheep any longer, and could remove himself from his Father's hand. The argument will not stand. The words "no one" are absolute. They do not allow for any exception. The inspired text does not say "no one except the christian himself" - and neither should we.'

[Saxon]

Hi Saxon,
"No one else can pluck them away, but a believer himself can do it." Think about what you are purposing; that a true Christian has more power than anyone else in the universe. No one, and that includes the sheep can remove himself from the Shepherd's strong grip. In view of such ***urance, it is odd that people should surmise that a true sheep of Christ could or would decide that he doesn't want to be a sheep any longer, and could remove himself from his Father's hand. The argument will not stand. The words "no one" are absolute. They do not allow for any exception. The inspired text does not say "no one except the christian himself" - and neither should we.'

The verses that you are looking at, John 10:28 and 29 are quite clear on what they are saying. Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. No man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. Jesus is clearly speaking of one person plucking another person out of his hand or the Father’s hand. It is totally impossible. What is possible is for a person to depart from the living God. (See Hebrews 3:12) What is possible is for a person to be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. (See Hebrews 3:13) What is possible is for a person to let go of the beginning of our confidence before the end. (See Hebrews 3:14)

Why would anyone think that a Christian has more power than any on else in the universe when in John 10:29 Jesus states that the Father is greater than all?

If a sheep cannot remove himself from the Shepherd's strong grip, what is the purpose of the parable of the LOST sheep? Is Jesus talking about nothing or just to hear himself talk?

Did you not read the following when I last addressed the thought that a Christian would decide to depart from the living God? It is the same answer.

When a person is a believer they do not want to lose their salvation. There is a devil that is out there trying to deceive and deceiving those that believe. It is the lost that are already deceived but the saved are the targets for deception. (See Deuteronomy 11:16, Luke 21:8, and 2 Timothy 3:13) If it were not possible for the saved to be deceived, then why the warnings to Christians to be not deceived? 1 Peter 5:8 warns us that the devil is out to devour anyone that he can. The lost are already devoured.
The Christians that are the saved at the first resurrection did persevere to the end but there those that started off but did not persevere to the end. Luke 8:13 states this clearly. They received the word with joy and after a while they fall away.

When they fall away the Holy Spirit leaves them as they are not saved any longer. There is no scripture that says the Holy Spirit will stay in a person that has gone back to sin. The Holy Spirit will continue to convict that person that has fallen away but he does not dwell in sinners.

People do not decide to not be sheep anymore, they die. The wages of sin is still death, not a change of species.

It is unfortunate that you are not willing to hold fast to the words of Hebrews 3:12 as tight as you do when you take “no one” out of context and cling to that to support the unsupportable OSAS false doctrine.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Hebrews 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Hebrews 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Deuteronomy 11:16 Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them;

Luke 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by Saxon

The verses that you are looking at, John 10:28 and 29 are quite clear on what they are saying. Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. No man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. Jesus is clearly speaking of one person plucking another person out of his hand or the Father’s hand. It is totally impossible. What is possible is for a person to depart from the living God. (See Hebrews 3:12) What is possible is for a person to be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. (See Hebrews 3:13) What is possible is for a person to let go of the beginning of our confidence before the end. (See Hebrews 3:14)

Why would anyone think that a Christian has more power than any on else in the universe when in John 10:29 Jesus states that the Father is greater than all?

If a sheep cannot remove himself from the Shepherd's strong grip, what is the purpose of the parable of the LOST sheep? Is Jesus talking about nothing or just to hear himself talk?

Did you not read the following when I last addressed the thought that a Christian would decide to depart from the living God? It is the same answer.

When a person is a believer they do not want to lose their salvation. There is a devil that is out there trying to deceive and deceiving those that believe. It is the lost that are already deceived but the saved are the targets for deception. (See Deuteronomy 11:16, Luke 21:8, and 2 Timothy 3:13) If it were not possible for the saved to be deceived, then why the warnings to Christians to be not deceived? 1 Peter 5:8 warns us that the devil is out to devour anyone that he can. The lost are already devoured.
The Christians that are the saved at the first resurrection did persevere to the end but there those that started off but did not persevere to the end. Luke 8:13 states this clearly. They received the word with joy and after a while they fall away.

When they fall away the Holy Spirit leaves them as they are not saved any longer. There is no scripture that says the Holy Spirit will stay in a person that has gone back to sin. The Holy Spirit will continue to convict that person that has fallen away but he does not dwell in sinners.

People do not decide to not be sheep anymore, they die. The wages of sin is still death, not a change of species.

It is unfortunate that you are not willing to hold fast to the words of Hebrews 3:12 as tight as you do when you take “no one” out of context and cling to that to support the unsupportable OSAS false doctrine.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Hebrews 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Hebrews 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Deuteronomy 11:16 Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them;

Luke 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Hi Saxon,

So it's your position that the Christian is totally responsable for keeping himself saved. No verse in the Bible makes that true. The lost sheep in the parable is not someone who was saved and lost it is somesone who has yet to come to Christ.
You said,"When they fall away the Holy Spirit leaves them as they are not saved any longer. The Holy Spirit will continue to convict that person that has fallen away but he does not dwell in sinners." So even after reading Romans you believe this? Would you like to take a guess on how many times the Apostle Paul was saved and lost? He called himself the chief of sinners, how many times do you think the Holy Spirit left him? If the Holy Spirit does not dwell in sinners do you believe that every time you sin the Holy Spirit leaves? There is no scriptural bases for this kind of thinking at least not in correct context.

[Saxon]

Hi Saxon,

So it's your position that the Christian is totally responsable for keeping himself saved. No verse in the Bible makes that true. The lost sheep in the parable is not someone who was saved and lost it is somesone who has yet to come to Christ.

As far as keeping one saved it is Christ that saves and keeps you saved. We, as Christians are responsible to be the Christians that we were created in Christ Jesus to be. (See Ephesians 2:8 to 10) Verse 10 says that we were created in Christ Jesus to do good works. If we are not obedient to God we are sinning. The wages of sin is death. That hasn’t changed yet.

Either it is a sheep or it is not a sheep. In your last post you were adamant that a sheep could not change and you were saying that in the context of a sheep representing the saved. Now, in that same context the sheep that was lost isn’t a sheep yet. You better read it again and I am sure you will find that the shepherd was a shepherd looking after sheep and one sheep got lost and he went to find it. If you have to change the story to support OSAS you better also take a look and see if OSAS is even in the Bible. It isn’t.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

You said,"When they fall away the Holy Spirit leaves them as they are not saved any longer. The Holy Spirit will continue to convict that person that has fallen away but he does not dwell in sinners." So even after reading Romans you believe this? Would you like to take a guess on how many times the Apostle Paul was saved and lost? He called himself the chief of sinners, how many times do you think the Holy Spirit left him? If the Holy Spirit does not dwell in sinners do you believe that every time you sin the Holy Spirit leaves? There is no scriptural bases for this kind of thinking at least not in correct context.

Why do you have to go on to this ridicules rant about what did not even happen. We know that Paul died in the faith and was saved in Christ. Who really cares how many times he was lost and resaved? Chances are he was in touch with God and knew that he was a sinner as you have pointed out and he also knew that he had to be right with God so he was seeking repentance and forgiveness because he knew that this was HIS responsibility to confess his sins. Read 1John chapter 1. Pay attention to verse 9. By the way, 1John was written to Christians as was the whole Bible.

[disciple]

Saxon, you said,"As far as keeping one saved it is Christ that saves and keeps you saved. We, as Christians are responsible to be the Christians that we were created in Christ Jesus to be. (See Ephesians 2:8 to 10) Verse 10 says that we were created in Christ Jesus to do good works. If we are not obedient to God we are sinning. The wages of sin is death. That hasn’t changed yet."
I agree with all of that and if Christ keeps you saved you can't lose your salvation. Jesus paid the penalty for all our sins so we have p***ed from death to life.
Remember Romans 8:1-2 "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death."
And I don't appreciate you calling me ridiculous, I have been respectful to all your comments.

[disciple]

This is why we can have ***urance even though we stumble.
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." 1 Peter 1:3-5

[Saxon]

Saxon, you said,"As far as keeping one saved it is Christ that saves and keeps you saved. We, as Christians are responsible to be the Christians that we were created in Christ Jesus to be. (See Ephesians 2:8 to 10) Verse 10 says that we were created in Christ Jesus to do good works. If we are not obedient to God we are sinning. The wages of sin is death. That hasn’t changed yet."
I agree with all of that and if Christ keeps you saved you can't lose your salvation. Jesus paid the penalty for all our sins so we have p***ed from death to life.
Remember Romans 8:1-2 "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death."
And I don't appreciate you calling me ridiculous, I have been respectful to all your comments.

"Why do you have to go on to this ridiculous rant about what did not even happen." Please notice that I called the “rant” ridiculous, not you. I never intended to call you any kind of derogatory name or besmirch your mentality. But because I have given you that impression I do apologize and ask you to forgive me for my insensibility towards you.

Yes it is Christ that keeps us but we are still responsible to not wander off like the sheep that got lost. We must not depart from the living God as Hebrews 3:12 continues to tell us. Salvation is conditional. As long as we are “in Christ” we have no condemnation and we will remain saved. Salvation is in his Son, if you depart you leave salvation and all the benefits behind, you are without Christ and salvation.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

[Saxon]

This is why we can have ***urance even though we stumble.
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." 1 Peter 1:3-5

We are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation, just as we are saved by grace through faith. In both instances if there is no faith there is no salvation. After we are saved we must remain faithful.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by Saxon

We are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation, just as we are saved by grace through faith. In both instances if there is no faith there is no salvation. After we are saved we must remain faithful.

Saxon you miss the point, the saved do remain faithful.
I John 2:19: “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.” This verse is very clear. John is not talking about saved people who have now lost their salvation, but people who were never saved at all. He is stressing if they had been saved they would still be with us. The proof of the believer is his continuance. False professors fall out by the way. Had they been true believers they would have continued.

[Saxon]

Saxon you miss the point, the saved do remain faithful.
I John 2:19: “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.” This verse is very clear. John is not talking about saved people who have now lost their salvation, but people who were never saved at all. He is stressing if they had been saved they would still be with us. The proof of the believer is his continuance. False professors fall out by the way. Had they been true believers they would have continued.

“John is not talking about saved people who have now lost their salvation, but people who were never saved at all.” How do you know this? The text does not say if they were lost remaining lost or if they were saved and departed from the loving God. "They went out from us, but they were not of us" only indicates that at the time of departure they were “not of us”.

The only way that there is to say what you are saying is to believe OSAS is true, therefore they were never saved. This is circular reasoning. You have to prove that OSAS is true. Up to this point you have not proven any such thing. It is up to you to explain what the following few verses really mean in the light of OSAS.


Ezekiel 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
John 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
John 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
John 15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
John 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
John 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Romans 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Romans 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

As long as there are verses like this in the Old and New Testament there is no room to even think that OSAS is even viable to be related to the Bible let alone be found in the Bible. It is your turn to explain scripture in support of your belief in OSAS. Start with some of these.

“False professors fall out by the way. Had they been true believers they would have continued”. What?? What has a false professor to fall out from? Think about it, if they were not real then they were never there to fall out in the first place.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by Saxon

“John is not talking about saved people who have now lost their salvation, but people who were never saved at all.” How do you know this? The text does not say if they were lost remaining lost or if they were saved and departed from the loving God. "They went out from us, but they were not of us" only indicates that at the time of departure they were “not of us”.

The only way that there is to say what you are saying is to believe OSAS is true, therefore they were never saved. This is circular reasoning. You have to prove that OSAS is true. Up to this point you have not proven any such thing. It is up to you to explain what the following few verses really mean in the light of OSAS.


Ezekiel 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
John 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
John 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
John 15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
John 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
John 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Romans 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Romans 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

As long as there are verses like this in the Old and New Testament there is no room to even think that OSAS is even viable to be related to the Bible let alone be found in the Bible. It is your turn to explain scripture in support of your belief in OSAS. Start with some of these.

“False professors fall out by the way. Had they been true believers they would have continued”. What?? What has a false professor to fall out from? Think about it, if they were not real then they were never there to fall out in the first place.

Can those born of God leave Christ?
1John 2:19
"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us.
For if they had belonged to us, (Saved)
they would have remained with us; (Saved)
but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." (were never saved)
John indicates here that leaving indicates that one had never been born of God.

Can those born of God live a lifestyle of sin?
1John 3:6 "No one who lives in him keeps on sinning.
No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him."
According to the second part of this verse, no one who lives a lifestyle of sin had ever been a "real" Christian. He had never known Christ. He had never been born of God. Furthermore, according to the first part of this verse, of those who do "live in him" (are born of God - are real Christians) not one of them lives a lifestyle of sin. Why is that? John explains a few verses later in 1John 3:9;
"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."
Those who have been born of God have lost the ability to live a lifestyle of sin because God's seed (the Holy Spirit) lives in them. I think you are confusing living a sinful lifestyle with stumbling and committing a sin occasionally.

[Saxon]

Can those born of God leave Christ?
1John 2:19
"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us.
For if they had belonged to us, (Saved)
they would have remained with us; (Saved)
but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." (were never saved)
John indicates here that leaving indicates that one had never been born of God.

Leaving what?? The lost cannot leave as they were not there to leave. Only the saved can leave Christ because they are the only ones that are there to leave from there.

John cannot be indicating that leaving indicates that they had never been born again because they could not have left Christ if they were never with him.

Can those born of God live a lifestyle of sin?
1John 3:6 "No one who lives in him keeps on sinning.
No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him."
According to the second part of this verse, no one who lives a lifestyle of sin had ever been a "real" Christian. He had never known Christ. He had never been born of God. Furthermore, according to the first part of this verse, of those who do "live in him" (are born of God - are real Christians) not one of them lives a lifestyle of sin. Why is that? John explains a few verses later in 1John 3:9;
"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."
Those who have been born of God have lost the ability to live a lifestyle of sin because God's seed (the Holy Spirit) lives in them. I think you are confusing living a sinful lifestyle with stumbling and committing a sin occasionally.

John is correct; No one who lives in him keeps on sinning and that is because they are in him. You are speaking of lifestyle and a person that IS in Christ is not living a lifestyle of sin. Still Christians do sin. If they neglect to follow 1John 1:9 they will slip out of Christ, depart from the living God (See Hebrews 3:12). There is no other explanation for the warnings such as I gave you a few samples of in my last post that you do not seem willing to comment on. You are right in your quote of 1John 3:9, One born of God cannot go on sinning because the wages of sin is death and one that keeps on sinning will soon find out that the wages of sin IS death. Nothing changes in the Word of God.

Those who have been born of God have not lost the ability to live a lifestyle of sin, they have been told not to and have been given the reason not to; because the Holy Spirit lives in them.

I think that you are confused because you seem to ignore the plain warnings that are in the Bible. There are a few samples in my last post that you still seem to be unwilling to comment on.


1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by Saxon

Leaving what?? The lost cannot leave as they were not there to leave. Only the saved can leave Christ because they are the only ones that are there to leave from there.

John cannot be indicating that leaving indicates that they had never been born again because they could not have left Christ if they were never with him.





John is correct; No one who lives in him keeps on sinning and that is because they are in him. You are speaking of lifestyle and a person that IS in Christ is not living a lifestyle of sin. Still Christians do sin. If they neglect to follow 1John 1:9 they will slip out of Christ, depart from the living God (See Hebrews 3:12). There is no other explanation for the warnings such as I gave you a few samples of in my last post that you do not seem willing to comment on. You are right in your quote of 1John 3:9, One born of God cannot go on sinning because the wages of sin is death and one that keeps on sinning will soon find out that the wages of sin IS death. Nothing changes in the Word of God.

Those who have been born of God have not lost the ability to live a lifestyle of sin, they have been told not to and have been given the reason not to; because the Holy Spirit lives in them.

I think that you are confused because you seem to ignore the plain warnings that are in the Bible. There are a few samples in my last post that you still seem to be unwilling to comment on.


1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

1 John 2:19 says nothing about anyone leaving Christ. 1 John 2:18 is talking about those who are against Christ, John writes,”even now many antichrists have come by which we know that it is the last hour”. Now verse 19, “they went out from us”, referring to the false brethern or those who were always against Christ in verse 18. Context Saxon.
Ok John 15. First, what is the context of the p***age? It refers to bearing spiritual fruit and to abiding in Christ, your relationship with Him—not to loss of salvation. Nowhere is this theme mentioned or implied. In verses 1-8, the words “fruit” and “abide” are used six times, indicating the themes and the intent of the p***age. This tells us 1) the context is of fruit bearing and 2) the “abide” cannot be about out position, but must be about our relationship. Why? Only if we are in a relationship with Christ can we produce true fruit. We do not actually produce fruit merely because of our spiritual union with Christ. The fact of this union with Christ has nothing directly to do with our choice of and responsibility to bear fruit here in this life. Clearly the one who abides in Christ relationally will bear “much fruit”; one who does not abide in Him relationally cannot bear any fruit; for verse five states clearly “apart from Me you can do nothing.” A severed walk with Christ is utterly useless to God, and in fact does not bring honor to God but dishonor. Think about the Prodigal son. In the entire p***age , only one verse is used to teach the loss of salvation: “If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.” What does the warning mean? The context seems to refer to either being put aside as to service and/or possibly the sin unto death. Certainly it tells us that if we are not abiding in Christ we are useless. Verse 11 makes no sense if Jesus has just told the disciples that they are in real danger of hell-fire if they do not abide in Him. Does what He says here make sense at all if He is warning believers of an eternal hell? It is as if He said: “If you are not extremely careful to maintain your relationship to me you will go away into eternal hell-fire. I say this that your joy may be made full.”
Consider what Jesus is saying, if we maintain our relationship with Him, that is to say obey His commands, confess our sins and repent when we fail and humble ourselves to His Lordship we will;
1. Produce “much fruit” (v. 5)
2. Glorify God (v. 8)
3. Prove our discipleship (v. 8)
4. Allow us to know and feel and be ***ured of His love for us and the Father’s love for us (v. 9-10)
5. Keep us from stumbling (16:1)
In light of this, verse 11 now makes sense: “These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may be in you and that your joy may be made full.”

[Saxon]

1 John 2:19 says nothing about anyone leaving Christ. 1 John 2:18 is talking about those who are against Christ, John writes,”even now many antichrists have come by which we know that it is the last hour”. Now verse 19, “they went out from us”, referring to the false brethern or those who were always against Christ in verse 18. Context Saxon.

As I have said before, there is no means of determining if the ones that “left us” were the lost remaining lost or the saved reverting to their old ways such as departing from the living God. (See Hebrews 3:12)The text simply does not reveal that.

All you have for your position is OSAS is true; therefore the ones that left were never saved, circular reasoning. You are relying on an unstable doctrine to prove the Bible statement. OSAS is unstable because it is too contentious.

My position favours the idea that it is the saved returning to their old ways and departing from the living God. Fact: they were with the believers or they could not have gone out from them. You have to be at a place in order to leave it.

Once they had changed their minds they were “not of us”. Once they were not of us, they were antichrist. That is what you are if you are not a Christian and if you depart from the living God, you are no longer a Christian.

Still it is all speculation and that is why it is not a verse that will determine the truth of OSAS.

Is a “false brethren” really any kind of brethren to a Christian??

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Ok John 15. First, what is the context of the p***age? It refers to bearing spiritual fruit and to abiding in Christ, your relationship with Him—not to loss of salvation. Nowhere is this theme mentioned or implied. In verses 1-8, the words “fruit” and “abide” are used six times, indicating the themes and the intent of the p***age. This tells us 1) the context is of fruit bearing and 2) the “abide” cannot be about out position, but must be about our relationship. Why? Only if we are in a relationship with Christ can we produce true fruit. We do not actually produce fruit merely because of our spiritual union with Christ. The fact of this union with Christ has nothing directly to do with our choice of and responsibility to bear fruit here in this life. Clearly the one who abides in Christ relationally will bear “much fruit”; one who does not abide in Him relationally cannot bear any fruit; for verse five states clearly “apart from Me you can do nothing.” A severed walk with Christ is utterly useless to God, and in fact does not bring honor to God but dishonor. Think about the Prodigal son. In the entire p***age , only one verse is used to teach the loss of salvation: “If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.” What does the warning mean? The context seems to refer to either being put aside as to service and/or possibly the sin unto death. Certainly it tells us that if we are not abiding in Christ we are useless. Verse 11 makes no sense if Jesus has just told the disciples that they are in real danger of hell-fire if they do not abide in Him. Does what He says here make sense at all if He is warning believers of an eternal hell? It is as if He said: “If you are not extremely careful to maintain your relationship to me you will go away into eternal hell-fire. I say this that your joy may be made full.”
Consider what Jesus is saying, if we maintain our relationship with Him, that is to say obey His commands, confess our sins and repent when we fail and humble ourselves to His Lordship we will;
1. Produce “much fruit” (v. 5)
2. Glorify God (v. 8)
3. Prove our discipleship (v. 8)
4. Allow us to know and feel and be ***ured of His love for us and the Father’s love for us (v. 9-10)
5. Keep us from stumbling (16:1)
In light of this, verse 11 now makes sense: “These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may be in you and that your joy may be made full.”

All you need to do is look closely at John 15:1 and 2. Jesus is speaking. Jesus is the vine. The Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me (Jesus) that beareth not fruit he (the Father) taketh away. You cannot be in Christ Jesus and not be a Christian. All the branches, without exception, are Christians. Every branch in Christ Jesus that does not bear fruit, the husbandman (the Father) takes away. You have ignored the first two verses of John 15 to believe what you have said. OSAS is crushed.


John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

[disciple]

Saxon the doctrine I rely on is scripture, taken in context. You are so interested in "crushing" something you don't agree with you miss the truth of scripture. Be an amb***ador for Christ Saxon not someone just looking to win an argument.

[Saxon]

Saxon the doctrine I rely on is scripture, taken in context. You are so interested in "crushing" something you don't agree with you miss the truth of scripture. Be an amb***ador for Christ Saxon not someone just looking to win an argument.

It isn’t that I am interested in crushing something as such but I am interested in the truth. I am of the opinion that OSAS is not in scripture as it conflicts with much scripture from Genesis to Revelation. I do admit that I “miss” OSAS as far as it being scriptural. You say that the doctrine you rely on is scripture, taken in context. You have failed to show this to me in the case of OSAS. I do not doubt your sincerity in that you truly believe it but I believe that you are sincerely wrong.

The idea that I am just looking to win an argument is almost an insult but I am thick skinned and let it bounce off. The way it is between us is that we are diametrically apposed on this subject and there can only be one of us that correct. OSAS is either right or it is wrong. There can be no middle ground. Is being an amb***ador for Christ, an excuse for not proclaiming the truth as you see it to be? I think that is a betrayal to Christ that said that the truth will set you free.

We should be able to discuss this and remain at a friendly level; after all we are both Christians. I do believe that we owe it to each other to inform each other as to what we see is the truth and from the scripture, why we see it as the truth.

I do wish that you would comment on what I say so I can see better why you hold to OSAS. If I am missing the point I won’t find it unless you or someone that believes it can show me. I hope that you can say the same about me showing you what and why I believe that OSAS is not scriptural. After all we are both claiming to want the truth.

[John T]

Originally Posted by Saxon

It isn’t that I am interested in crushing something as such but I am interested in the truth. I am of the opinion that OSAS is not in scripture as it conflicts with much scripture from Genesis to Revelation. I do admit that I “miss” OSAS as far as it being scriptural. You say that the doctrine you rely on is scripture, taken in context. You have failed to show this to me in the case of OSAS. I do not doubt your sincerity in that you truly believe it but I believe that you are sincerely wrong.

The idea that I am just looking to win an argument is almost an insult but I am thick skinned and let it bounce off. The way it is between us is that we are diametrically apposed on this subject and there can only be one of us that correct. OSAS is either right or it is wrong. There can be no middle ground. Is being an amb***ador for Christ, an excuse for not proclaiming the truth as you see it to be? I think that is a betrayal to Christ that said that the truth will set you free.

We should be able to discuss this and remain at a friendly level; after all we are both Christians. I do believe that we owe it to each other to inform each other as to what we see is the truth and from the scripture, why we see it as the truth.

I do wish that you would comment on what I say so I can see better why you hold to OSAS. If I am missing the point I won’t find it unless you or someone that believes it can show me. I hope that you can say the same about me showing you what and why I believe that OSAS is not scriptural. After all we are both claiming to want the truth.

Let's begin with a few facts:
.

1. There are verses such as Ephesians 1:4 that mention "predestination"
2. There are many such verses in the Bible
3. There are verses in the Bible that indicate that sometimes salvation may be forfeited such as Hebrews 6:6
4. There are other similar verses in the Bible
5. God is the Author of ALL the verses in the Bible; He did not stutter when He had Holy Spirit cause the men to write as He wanted.
6. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is consistent and is a covenant making and keeping God.
7. God is forever calling humans to repentance, and reliance upon Jesus Christ for salvation.
8. Therefore because in the covenant He makes with humankind is consistent, and God is NOT schizophrenic, saying one thing here, and another thing there, ALL the verses in the Bible are friends, not enemies. And to take one set of verses and not consider the other verses is a great distortion of the whole council of God.
9. Finally, it is the *** of the intelligent readers and teachers of God's word to include both "sets" of Scripture and reconcile the hard-to-understand "contradictions", so we may give the whole Council of God, and not distort it like a fun house mirror.

.
Can you all see that?

For example, I see that the history of Esau in the fact that he sold his birthright for a bowl of oatmeal (must have been a Scotsman!) to be a type of what is mentioned in Hebrews 6:6. He despised what was his, and Hebrews 12:16 calls him a "fornicator" and "profane"

Yet, we who are of the Reformed persuasion forget to remember the context of that when we quote Romans 9:13 as a support for the Reformed position.
.

Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated

.
Yeah, God hated Esau for what he did. The birthright that goes to the firstborn is a type of Jesus, Whom Paul calls "The firstborn of all creation." (Colossians 1:15) yet Esau despised that privilege. So let us read Hebrews 6:6 in the light of Esau instead of making a support for Reformed theology.

[John T]

Originally Posted by Saxon

We are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation, just as we are saved by grace through faith. In both instances if there is no faith there is no salvation. After we are saved we must remain faithful.

That is NOT what Jude says.

Jude 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

[Saxon]

That is NOT what Jude says.


Jude 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

It becomes obvious that we are kept if we continue in the faith. We are not saved to become stagnate in our lives. As Christians we are expected to be the Christians that God has created us to be, in Christ Jesus. This requires us to remain in the faith (See Acts 14:22, Colossians 1:23 and 1 Timothy 2:15)

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God

Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

1 Timothy 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety