Eternal Security

[Saxon]

Let's begin with a few facts:
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1.There are verses such as Ephesians 1:4 that mention "predestination"
2.There are many such verses in the Bible
3.There are verses in the Bible that indicate that sometimes salvation may be forfeited such as Hebrews 6:6
4.There are other similar verses in the Bible
5.God is the Author of ALL the verses in the Bible; He did not stutter when He had Holy Spirit cause the men to write as He wanted.
6.The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is consistent and is a covenant making and keeping God.
7.God is forever calling humans to repentance, and reliance upon Jesus Christ for salvation.
8.Therefore because in the covenant He makes with humankind is consistent, and God is NOT schizophrenic, saying one thing here, and another thing there, ALL the verses in the Bible are friends, not enemies. And to take one set of verses and not consider the other verses is a great distortion of the whole council of God.
9.Finally, it is the *** of the intelligent readers and teachers of God's word to include both "sets" of Scripture and reconcile the hard-to-understand "contradictions", so we may give the whole Council of God, and not distort it like a fun house mirror.

.
Can you all see that?

Not only do I see it, I agree with it for the most part. You have contradictions in quotation marks. I will ***ume that you realize that there are no real contradiction in the Bible.

For example, I see that the history of Esau in the fact that he sold his birthright for a bowl of oatmeal (must have been a Scotsman!) to be a type of what is mentioned in Hebrews 6:6. He despised what was his, and Hebrews 12:16 calls him a "fornicator" and "profane"

Yet, we who are of the Reformed persuasion forget to remember the context of that when we quote as a support for the Reformed position.
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Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated
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Yeah, God hated Esau for what he did. The birthright that goes to the firstborn is a type of Jesus, Whom Paul calls "The firstborn of all creation." (Colossians 1:15) yet Esau despised that privilege. So let us read Hebrews 6:6 in the light of Esau instead of making a support for Reformed theology.

Romans 9:13 is a quote from Malachi 1:2 and 3. This is dealing with the decedents of Jacob and Esau. God is not saying that he hated the person of Esau from Genesis but what his decedents turned into. Hebrews 12:16 is referring to Esau from Genesis.

Hebrews 6:6 speaks of falling away and Hebrews 12:12 to 17 speaks of the lame being turned out of the way, failing the grace of God being defiled being a fornicator and profane, and in the end, rejection.

There is nothing here that seems to support OSAS.


Hebrews 12:12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
Hebrews 12:13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Hebrews 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
Hebrews 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
Hebrews 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame

[disciple]

Originally Posted by Saxon

It isn’t that I am interested in crushing something as such but I am interested in the truth. I am of the opinion that OSAS is not in scripture as it conflicts with much scripture from Genesis to Revelation. I do admit that I “miss” OSAS as far as it being scriptural. You say that the doctrine you rely on is scripture, taken in context. You have failed to show this to me in the case of OSAS. I do not doubt your sincerity in that you truly believe it but I believe that you are sincerely wrong.

The idea that I am just looking to win an argument is almost an insult but I am thick skinned and let it bounce off. The way it is between us is that we are diametrically apposed on this subject and there can only be one of us that correct. OSAS is either right or it is wrong. There can be no middle ground. Is being an amb***ador for Christ, an excuse for not proclaiming the truth as you see it to be? I think that is a betrayal to Christ that said that the truth will set you free.

We should be able to discuss this and remain at a friendly level; after all we are both Christians. I do believe that we owe it to each other to inform each other as to what we see is the truth and from the scripture, why we see it as the truth.

I do wish that you would comment on what I say so I can see better why you hold to OSAS. If I am missing the point I won’t find it unless you or someone that believes it can show me. I hope that you can say the same about me showing you what and why I believe that OSAS is not scriptural. After all we are both claiming to want the truth.

Hello Saxon,

My comment was not meant to insult you but to encourage you to season your words. Yes we both believe the other is incorrect and obviously without that type of friction there would be no discussion and I do believe we are brothers in Christ and should treat each other accordingly. John T made a good point, all the verses in the Bible are friends and if we misunderstand them it doesn't change their meaning. So we must take what we know to be true concerning God and go from there. In the case of eternal security, would God lie? No. Would He trick us or leave out information? No. Is salvation only for those who understand all scripture perfectly? No.
Did God ever say He would take back His gift or that we must keep ourselves saved? No. My belief that when you are saved you are saved for eternity, starts with God's character and the trust I have that He will do for me what I cannot do. He is willing and able to rescue me, adopt me into His family and to keep me in His family in spite of my failings.

[John T]

Originally Posted by Saxon

It becomes obvious that we are kept if we continue in the faith.

That is NOT what Jude says.

Jude 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
That is NOT what Jude says.

We are not saved to become stagnate in our lives. As Christians we are expected to be the Christians that God has created us to be, in Christ Jesus. This requires us to remain in the faith (See Acts 14:22, Colossians 1:23 and 1 Timothy 2:15)

You are creating a RED HERRING because that is NOT what Jude says.

Jude 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

No one doubts what you say, but that is a distinct and different matter than what is said in Jude. (This author is the half brother of Jesus.) You are failing to use the whole council of God as you do this, and you are making the verses enemies instead of friends

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God

Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

1 Timothy 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety

No one doubts what you say, but that is a distinct and different matter than what is said in Jude. (This author is the half brother of Jesus.) You are failing to use the whole council of God as you do this, and you are making the verses enemies instead of friends. The simple fact of the matter is that you seem to be creating an either/or situation when in fact the situation is REALLY both/and. This is what I mean by stating you are not looking at the whole council of God.

NOW can you see what I am saying?

[Saxon]

Hello Saxon,

My comment was not meant to insult you but to encourage you to season your words. Yes we both believe the other is incorrect and obviously without that type of friction there would be no discussion and I do believe we are brothers in Christ and should treat each other accordingly. John T made a good point, all the verses in the Bible are friends and if we misunderstand them it doesn't change their meaning. So we must take what we know to be true concerning God and go from there.

I know that you don’t mean to insult me and as I said I let it go. Forgive and forget. John T’s point is totally true.

In the case of eternal security, would God lie? No.

God does not lie ever. We are the ones that are to find out what God is saying.

Would He trick us or leave out information? No.

God does not trick us but Satan is out to deceive us and we are to be careful as to what we believe.

[b]Is salvation only for those who understand all scripture perfectly? No.[b/]

If that was the case there would be none saved, none

Did God ever say He would take back His gift or that we must keep ourselves saved? No.

God never said that he would take back his gift, and he never will. As I have said before it is us the believers that are the problem in that we can and some do, depart from the living God.

I do not believe that there is a statement in the Bible that says that we must keep our selves saved, word for word, but the following does say that there are things that we must keep or we will face the consequences. Pay attention to Jude 1:21. We are expected to "keep".

Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Luke 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

1 Timothy 5:22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

1 John 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen

Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

My belief that when you are saved you are saved for eternity, starts with God's character and the trust I have that He will do for me what I cannot do. He is willing and able to rescue me, adopt me into His family and to keep me in His family in spite of my failings.

This is a specific statement that you should support with the Bible, book, chapter and verse. I believe that when you are in Christ you are saved for eternity but if you step out of Christ by departing from the living God, you are no longer saved for eternity or anything else. Eternal life is in his son and if you step out you leave eternal life.

[Saxon]

You are creating a RED HERRING because that is NOT what Jude says.

Jude 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

No one doubts what you say, but that is a distinct and different matter than what is said in Jude. (This author is the half brother of Jesus.) You are failing to use the whole council of God as you do this, and you are making the verses enemies instead of friends

You are the one that is not using the whole council of God. You seem to think that if a real warning is there that speaks against OSAS the warning now turns into something that is not a friend. That is a silly thought on your part. If there is a storm and you are driving down the road and the bridge is out and I was to stop you and tell you to turn around because the bridge is out that makes me not a friend? If your friends would let you go through what good is their friendship? It is good for nothing.

Ezekiel 18:24 tells us clearly but that is not friendly so you ignore it. Jesus by way of Luke 8:13 tells us clearly but that is not friendly so you ignore it. Paul in Romans 11:20 and 21 tells us clearly but that is not friendly so you ignore it. The truth is OSAS is not true.

Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his tresp*** that he hath tresp***ed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

No one doubts what you say, but that is a distinct and different matter than what is said in Jude. (This author is the half brother of Jesus.) You are failing to use the whole council of God as you do this, and you are making the verses enemies instead of friends. The simple fact of the matter is that you seem to be creating an either/or situation when in fact the situation is REALLY both/and. This is what I mean by stating you are not looking at the whole council of God.

NOW can you see what I am saying?

Jude does not cancel out the rest of the Bible that clearly speaks in total opposition to OSAS You speak of the whole council of God, then I would suggest that you look at the whole council of God. How does he keep you from falling? He provided the scriptures that if you obey them you will not fall. The idea that we are saved and just wait for the sweet by and by because we are not responsible for salvation in any way is just a huge lie from the pit. If you were to look at the whole council of God you would find that we are responsible to have faith in Christ. Faith in Christ does not save us but God saved us by his grace. It is a total gift. After we are saved we are to engage in the good works that we were created in Christ Jesus to do. (See Ephesians 2:8 to 10) If we do not do what Christians are to do then we will be removed. (See John 15:1 and 2)

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

[John T]

Hello Saxon

You are making the verses enemies instead of friends.

Can you not see that is a case of "both..., and" instead of "either/ or"? If one does not accept that both the "Calvinist verses" and the "Free Will Baptist verses" are true, and come from the same Author, we neglect to use the whole council of God. Otherwise we wind up by implication that God is schizophrenic and unreliable because He cannot make His thoughts clear, nor can He keep His Covenental promises. Instead it is us, not Him who is unreliable because we are creatures with limited understanding.

No, that is not a nasty accusation, but it is a plea to be more temperate.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by Saxon

I know that you don’t mean to insult me and as I said I let it go. Forgive and forget. John T’s point is totally true.





God does not lie ever. We are the ones that are to find out what God is saying.





God does not trick us but Satan is out to deceive us and we are to be careful as to what we believe.





If that was the case there would be none saved, none





God never said that he would take back his gift, and he never will. As I have said before it is us the believers that are the problem in that we can and some do, depart from the living God.

I do not believe that there is a statement in the Bible that says that we must keep our selves saved, word for word, but the following does say that there are things that we must keep or we will face the consequences. Pay attention to Jude 1:21. We are expected to "keep".

Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Luke 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

1 Timothy 5:22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

1 John 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen

Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.





This is a specific statement that you should support with the Bible, book, chapter and verse. I believe that when you are in Christ you are saved for eternity but if you step out of Christ by departing from the living God, you are no longer saved for eternity or anything else. Eternal life is in his son and if you step out you leave eternal life.

I would reference the following scripture and take note in these verses there is no stipulation "unless or until you sin".
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory." Ephesians 1:3-14

So we are justified by the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, and we are also adopted by the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. The one transaction, redeeming us, buying us out of the slave market of sin - that is the picture here - that one transaction between God the Son and God the Father has wrought both legal acts on our behalf: justification and adoption. Not only have we been declared not guilty by God the Judge, but God the Judge has adopted us as His own sons. And the law also granted the one who adopted that son the full rights and responsibilities of a father, full authority over the adopted son, and full responsibility to care for him and keep him. True adopted sons do not walk away but the illegitimate fakers will always reveal themselves.

[Saxon]

Hello Saxon

You are making the verses enemies instead of friends.

Can you not see that is a case of "both..., and" instead of "either/ or"? If one does not accept that both the "Calvinist verses" and the "Free Will Baptist verses" are true, and come from the same Author, we neglect to use the whole council of God. Otherwise we wind up by implication that God is schizophrenic and unreliable because He cannot make His thoughts clear, nor can He keep His Covenental promises. Instead it is us, not Him who is unreliable because we are creatures with limited understanding.

No, that is not a nasty accusation, but it is a plea to be more temperate.

Can something be wet and dry at the same time? Can something be right and wrong at the same time? Either OSAS is true or OSAS is false. It has to be one or the other. Whoever is making a false statement using the word of God for support does not understand what is being said in the scriptures that are being used for support. It is either the “Calvinists” or the “Free Will Baptists” that are miss-using the scriptures. The Bible cannot and will not and does not contradict itself in any way. We cannot have OSAS both right and wrong and say that is what the Bible teaches.

I will agree with you when you say that it is us and not him that are not getting it right. God is not and never will be schizophrenic and unreliable. All scripture is “friendly”. We do not have the capability to change that. What we need to do is understand what God is telling us. In this case we are looking at OSAS and you appear to be saying that it is true and you can lose your salvation is true. To me, this is not possible seeing that it is diametrically opposed to each other.

You have said nothing nasty.

[Saxon]

I would reference the following scripture and take note in these verses there is no stipulation "unless or until you sin".
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory." Ephesians 1:3-14

So we are justified by the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, and we are also adopted by the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. The one transaction, redeeming us, buying us out of the slave market of sin - that is the picture here - that one transaction between God the Son and God the Father has wrought both legal acts on our behalf: justification and adoption. Not only have we been declared not guilty by God the Judge, but God the Judge has adopted us as His own sons. And the law also granted the one who adopted that son the full rights and responsibilities of a father, full authority over the adopted son, and full responsibility to care for him and keep him. True adopted sons do not walk away but the illegitimate fakers will always reveal themselves.

You have quoted scripture and what you have quoted I do have to agree with the scripture. You may have noticed that everything that the scripture mentioned that was bestowed upon the believer was conditioned on being “in Christ”. Everything mentioned was to those that are in Christ. It is only those that are in Christ that are blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places; He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world; predestined us to adoption as sons; we have redemption through His blood; the forgiveness of sins. All the rest is because we are in Christ. It is being in Christ that makes a person a Christian person. 1 John 5:11 confirms this by stating that eternal life is IN his Son, in Christ. If this were all the scripture that deals with salvation I could be convinced that OSAS is true. But, there is more than just the verses that tell you about salvation and there are verses that do tell that we can fall away, fall from grace depart from the living God, be cut off of the olive tree or be removed from the vine. You cannot just look at the “good” verses and ignore the verses that tell you that you can lose your salvation. They are there to tell the truth so you do not get caught up in the things that you were entangled in before you were saved. Jesus said you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.

There are no fakers in Christ. In Christ is salvation, outside of Christ is lost sinners.

1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

[John T]

Originally Posted by Saxon

I will agree with you when you say that it is us and not him that are not getting it right. God is not and never will be schizophrenic and unreliable. All scripture is “friendly”. We do not have the capability to change that. What we need to do is understand what God is telling us. In this case we are looking at OSAS and you appear to be saying that it is true and you can lose your salvation is true. To me, this is not possible seeing that it is diametrically opposed to each other.

You have said nothing nasty.

I an glad to see that you agree with me on something, but you miss my point about OSAS and Arninianism both being true simultaneously, and not exclusive of each other. We humans in out limited capacities of reason and logic want to make them exclusive. My theological position as a OSAS believer is to ask how can I reconcile the two positions without disparaging the Arminian position?

You see the "fight" between the Calvinist and Arminians is largely an in-house fight. It is akin to two teen aged boys trying to best each other in the living room of their house, and in the process, they may move furniture of break some lamps.

As long as the brothers are alive, they will remain brothers, and remain in the same family even after they have their own distinct families.

Here is an example of my attempt to reconcile two verses favored by both sides:
.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand

Isaiah 49:16 Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame
.

If you can imagine a child holding M&Ms in his fist, that is how tightly Jesus holds his Children, but it is more than that, believers are tattooed on the palms of God.

OTOH there is Hebrews 6:4-6 that tells us clearly that there are some people who "were enlightened, tasted, partook and know the powers of the world to come" to renew themselves into repentance because they are re-crucifying Jesus again.

Yes, I am guessing here, and I reserve the right to be wrong, but I believe that when Esau sold his birthright to Jacob for a bowl of red oatmeal that MAY be an example of what Hebrews 6 is talking about.

You see, no one took away the birthright of Esau; he willingly gave it up because it was not of much value to him. So that section does not speak of "back sliding" but I believe that is may be possible for one to relinquish the rights of their salvation.

When Absalom did all his nasty stuff to his father David, he relinquished any rights he had to be a son of the King because he openly showed contempt for his father. That may be another example.

So what I have done here is maintain the truth of both sections of verses and try to make a way to bring them together as brothers in the same book of God's words. Do you think that you could do likewise?

[Saxon]

I an glad to see that you agree with me on something, but you miss my point about OSAS and Arninianism both being true simultaneously, and not exclusive of each other. We humans in out limited capacities of reason and logic want to make them exclusive. My theological position as a OSAS believer is to ask how can I reconcile the two positions without disparaging the Arminian position?

You see the "fight" between the Calvinist and Arminians is largely an in-house fight. It is akin to two teen aged boys trying to best each other in the living room of their house, and in the process, they may move furniture of break some lamps.

As long as the brothers are alive, they will remain brothers, and remain in the same family even after they have their own distinct families.

Here is an example of my attempt to reconcile two verses favored by both sides:
.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand

Isaiah 49:16 Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame
.
If you can imagine a child holding M&Ms in his fist, that is how tightly Jesus holds his Children, but it is more than that, believers are tattooed on the palms of God.

OTOH there is Hebrews 6:4-6 that tells us clearly that there are some people who "were enlightened, tasted, partook and know the powers of the world to come" to renew themselves into repentance because they are re-crucifying Jesus again.

Yes, I am guessing here, and I reserve the right to be wrong, but I believe that when Esau sold his birthright to Jacob for a bowl of red oatmeal that MAY be an example of what Hebrews 6 is talking about.

You see, no one took away the birthright of Esau; he willingly gave it up because it was not of much value to him. So that section does not speak of "back sliding" but I believe that is may be possible for one to relinquish the rights of their salvation.

When Absalom did all his nasty stuff to his father David, he relinquished any rights he had to be a son of the King because he openly showed contempt for his father. That may be another example.

So what I have done here is maintain the truth of both sections of verses and try to make a way to bring them together as brothers in the same book of God's words. Do you think that you could do likewise?

I do see what you are attempting to do. You are beating a dead horse and expecting it to react. You cannot be dead and alive at the same time. You cannot be black and white at the same time. You cannot be right and wrong at the same time.

I cannot see how OSAS can be true and false at the same time. It just doesn’t compute. Now that I have said all that; show me!

[disciple]

Originally Posted by Saxon

You have quoted scripture and what you have quoted I do have to agree with the scripture. You may have noticed that everything that the scripture mentioned that was bestowed upon the believer was conditioned on being “in Christ”. Everything mentioned was to those that are in Christ. It is only those that are in Christ that are blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places; He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world; predestined us to adoption as sons; we have redemption through His blood; the forgiveness of sins. All the rest is because we are in Christ. It is being in Christ that makes a person a Christian person. 1 John 5:11 confirms this by stating that eternal life is IN his Son, in Christ. If this were all the scripture that deals with salvation I could be convinced that OSAS is true. But, there is more than just the verses that tell you about salvation and there are verses that do tell that we can fall away, fall from grace depart from the living God, be cut off of the olive tree or be removed from the vine. You cannot just look at the “good” verses and ignore the verses that tell you that you can lose your salvation. They are there to tell the truth so you do not get caught up in the things that you were entangled in before you were saved. Jesus said you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.

There are no fakers in Christ. In Christ is salvation, outside of Christ is lost sinners.

1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Hello Saxon,

There are no fakers in Christ because they were always pretenders, just as false teachers acted as teachers of the truth but were not, fake Christians and false teachers have fooled many. Lets look at the following verses. “But God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, because we have now been declared righteous by his blood, we will be saved through him from God’s wrath. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more, since we have been reconciled, will we be saved by his life?” Romans 5:8-10

Simply stated, if God did so much for us while we were sinners, completely alienated and enemies of God before salvation, how much more will He not do for us now that we have been reconciled and stand related to Him as His children who have been justified, declared righteous in Christ? Salvation depends upon God to bring it to p***, not us. Nothing, not even our sin, can frustrate the eternal and sovereign purpose of God who determined to save us by grace through faith in His Son. Since God’s holiness has been satisfied by the death of Christ, He can be just and the justifier of those who receive His Son by faith. To say that a Christian has more say in what God has purchased, and purchased by the way when He knew everything we would do in the future, is like saying we can thwart what God has ordained. Look at the following verse;
“I tell you the solemn truth, the one who hears my message and believes the one who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, but has crossed over from death to life.” John 5:24 This verse does not say, "will not be condemned unless he stumbles", nor does it say or imply in any way "but has crossed over from death to life unless he decides to cross back to death".

[disciple]

Lets also look at the following sections of scripture.
“Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord,as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.”
2 Peter 1:2-4
Let’s first notice that it was Him who called us and the plan of salvation was conceived and carried out by His divine power. When people realize that they do not have to become like Christ on their own power, and with their own resources, but instead we can rely on the riches and wealth we have been given by God and the fact that it is Him who keeps us we can have ***urance. He has enabled us, once born again to escape corruption.

“For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.” Galatians 2:19-21
Who lives the Christian life, is it me or Christ through me? If it depends on me to stay saved and I fail then Christ died in vain.

[John T]

Originally Posted by Saxon

I do see what you are attempting to do. You are beating a dead horse and expecting it to react. You cannot be dead and alive at the same time. You cannot be black and white at the same time. You cannot be right and wrong at the same time.

I cannot see how OSAS can be true and false at the same time. It just doesn’t compute. Now that I have said all that; show me!

You are correct that "it does not compute", but can you understand that that comes from the mind of humans, and NOT from the mind of God?

As to the "dead horse" ****ogy, it is not appropriate as it pertains to either position. That is because I am attempting to demonstrate that because both sets of verses are in the Bible, both sets of verses MUST be true and harmonious. However I believe that the "dead horse" term MAY be appropriate to those who wish to make the Bible say something that God did not intend it to say because they are so entrenched in their polarized view, that they do not wish to reconcile "the other side" with their viewpoints.

For sure, I do not know if that describes you, and I do know that I am not pointing fingers; instead, I am opening the possibilities for a more reasoned discussion than has been done before. Just because you cannot reconcile polarities, it does not mean that we should not attempt to do this especially because this is not an issue that determines salvation. It is an in-house issue between brothers who are saved. Therefore you are setting up polarities that are not true because they are absolutes based in the world, and they are in keeping with what Scripture says. It is more of a rhetorical objection than one based on Scripture.

More to the point, IMHO your position seems to be tantamount to dividing brothers in Christ. I surely hope that it is your position that those professing Christians who are in the "OSAS camp" are just as much saved as those who are in the in the "Arminian camp". I say this because if you are taking the extreme position that the Christians who believe that the Bible "teaches OSAS" are apostates who are not saved then there is no hope of theological reconciliation with you on that issue.

Secondly, I believe that your position is placing too much emphasis on the phrase "in Christ". It seems to be an ambiguous and rhetorical point in an argument. That is because you do not supply us with the definition that you place on that phrase. For example, if one is "in Christ" how does one get to that position? If one considers that being "in Christ" is like a front door of a house, then how does the process of going out the back door, and being "out of Christ" work? I submit that there is no Scripture that supports the position that one can "place himself in Christ, which is the cornerstone of your position

Thirdly, you have not dealt with the examples I took from Scripture. They are in there for a purpose, and I described one reason why they are placed there. It is not necessary for you to agree with what I said, but I submit that if you do not agree, then it is necessary for you to supply a reason why such incidents are in the Bible. Otherwise you are basing your arguments on rhetoric, and not on facts.

I look forward to reading your response.

[Saxon]

You are correct that "it does not compute", but can you understand that that comes from the mind of humans, and NOT from the mind of God?

What does not compute is the idea that something can be right and wrong at the same time. Even in God’s realm this is not possible.

I think that you would agree that God had inspired Ezekiel to write Ezekiel 18:24. This statement makes it clear that OSAS is NOT an option.


Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his tresp*** that he hath tresp***ed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

As to the "dead horse" ****ogy, it is not appropriate as it pertains to either position. That is because I am attempting to demonstrate that because both sets of verses are in the Bible, both sets of verses MUST be true and harmonious. However I believe that the "dead horse" term MAY be appropriate to those who wish to make the Bible say something that God did not intend it to say because they are so entrenched in their polarized view, that they do not wish to reconcile "the other side" with their viewpoints.

All scripture is true and all scripture is from God. God’s word is in harmony. Harmony does not mean that things that seem to oppose each other are correct in the supposed opposition. In other word right and wrong; yes and no are not the same.

A person has to come to a conclusion but it cannot be that it is right and the opposite is also right. That is beating the dead horse.

For sure, I do not know if that describes you, and I do know that I am not pointing fingers; instead, I am opening the possibilities for a more reasoned discussion than has been done before. Just because you cannot reconcile polarities, it does not mean that we should not attempt to do this especially because this is not an issue that determines salvation. It is an in-house issue between brothers who are saved. Therefore you are setting up polarities that are not true because they are absolutes based in the world, and they are in keeping with what Scripture says. It is more of a rhetorical objection than one based on Scripture.

This is not an issue that determines if one is saved or not but it can effect the out come at the end of the earthly life.

If OSAS is true then there is nothing to worry about. The only real problem with OSAS if it were true is that you can never know if you are saved. If you die believing OSAS and it is not true and you fail to repent of sins committee while saved then you will be held accountable for them. (See Ezekiel 18:24)

If OSAS is not true then there is nothing to worry about because when you start to fall away you just have to repent and go on living for God. If I die not believing OSAS then it is ok because if it was true I just didn’t believe it, no big deal.

I am not setting up polarities, they are there before I was even born. God did not set up polarities but people that cannot reconcile eternal life /everlasting life and loss of salvation have set up the polarities.

More to the point, IMHO your position seems to be tantamount to dividing brothers in Christ. I surely hope that it is your position that those professing Christians who are in the "OSAS camp" are just as much saved as those who are in the in the "Arminian camp". I say this because if you are taking the extreme position that the Christians who believe that the Bible "teaches OSAS" are apostates who are not saved then there is no hope of theological reconciliation with you on that issue.

And believing OSAS isn’t equally dividing brothers in Christ???

Salvation is by grace through faith, not on what doctrines you believe. When we all get to heaven we are going to be surprised at who gets there and who doesn’t.

How did you ever come to the conclusion that I would hold that extreme view?? I have had people tell me that I am not saved because I do not believe OSAS. That is just as absurd.

Secondly, I believe that your position is placing too much emphasis on the phrase "in Christ". It seems to be an ambiguous and rhetorical point in an argument. That is because you do not supply us with the definition that you place on that phrase. For example, if one is "in Christ" how does one get to that position? If one considers that being "in Christ" is like a front door of a house, then how does the process of going out the back door, and being "out of Christ" work? I submit that there is no Scripture that supports the position that one can "place himself in Christ, which is the cornerstone of your position

If you think that I am placing too much emphasis on the phrase "in Christ" you will have to complain to the author as it was him that mentioned it. In Christ is the key to the whole affair and I am putting too much emphasis on it. You need a reality check.

There is no scripture that supports the position that one can "place himself in Christ”. Besides placing ones self in Christ, if it were possible, is not the problem. The problem is departing from the living God. (See Hebrews 3:12) The thought of place ones self in Christ, is not the cornerstone of my position. Being in Christ is the cornerstone of all of Christianity. In Christ is salvation, outside of Christ is lost sinners. I am not placing too much emphasis on “in Christ” it is you not putting enough emphasis on “in Christ”.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

[Saxon]

Thirdly, you have not dealt with the examples I took from Scripture. They are in there for a purpose, and I described one reason why they are placed there. It is not necessary for you to agree with what I said, but I submit that if you do not agree, then it is necessary for you to supply a reason why such incidents are in the Bible. Otherwise you are basing your arguments on rhetoric, and not on facts.

Here is an example of my attempt to reconcile two verses favored by both sides:
.
John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand

In order to be able to reconcile verses like this with being able to lose eternal life you need to have an understanding of what eternal life is and is not.

Eternal Life is a condition that exists in Christ alone. Only those that are “in Christ” are experiencing Eternal Life. The following verses are all ***ociating (Eternal) Life to Jesus Christ. So the answer to the question, what is the proper biblical Eternal Life? would be that Jesus Christ is Eternal Life.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

John 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

John 6:48 I am that bread of life.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

John 14:6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him

1John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
1John 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

1John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

From this we can see that eternal life is not a quan***y of life. If you take time to read the verses supplied and check the context you will soon see that eternal life is Jesus Christ himself. Jesus, the life, is eternal. Eternal life has always existed and will never end that is why it is called eternal life. Eternal life was eternal before you or I had it and if we were to fall away eternal life will still be eternal. Believers have nothing to do with eternal life being eternal.

It is true that no man will pluck the saved out of the father’s hand. The idea of being plucked and wandering off are very different. Hebrews 3:12 warns us about departing from the living God. A believer departing is different than someone or something plucking us from the Father’s hand. In the parable of the lost sheep, the sheep was actually lost. In this case the sheep was recovered but if it was not it would have died outside the care of the shepherd.

Isaiah 49:16 Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me.

This indicates how close God is to us but is not indicating OSAS.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame

This is supporting that a saved person can fall away.

[Saxon]

Hello Saxon,

There are no fakers in Christ because they were always pretenders, just as false teachers acted as teachers of the truth but were not, fake Christians and false teachers have fooled many. Lets look at the following verses. “But God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, because we have now been declared righteous by his blood, we will be saved through him from God’s wrath. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more, since we have been reconciled, will we be saved by his life?” Romans 5:8-10

You stated, “True adopted sons do not walk away but the illegitimate fakers will always reveal themselves”. Where in scripture does that statement or any statement indicate that true adopted sons do not walk away? That is in direct conflict with Hebrews 3:12. How do illegitimate fakers always reveal themselves?

There is no doubt that there are those that claim to be Christians but are not and those that teach false doctrine. There are some Christians that do teach false doctrines but for the most part the rest are not Christians and are not part of the discussion.

Those are good verses that are true, but in reality they do not say anything that has to do with OSAS being true.


Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Simply stated, if God did so much for us while we were sinners, completely alienated and enemies of God before salvation, how much more will He not do for us now that we have been reconciled and stand related to Him as His children who have been justified, declared righteous in Christ? Salvation depends upon God to bring it to p***, not us. Nothing, not even our sin, can frustrate the eternal and sovereign purpose of God who determined to save us by grace through faith in His Son. Since God’s holiness has been satisfied by the death of Christ, He can be just and the justifier of those who receive His Son by faith. To say that a Christian has more say in what God has purchased, and purchased by the way when He knew everything we would do in the future, is like saying we can thwart what God has ordained. Look at the following verse;
“I tell you the solemn truth, the one who hears my message and believes the one who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, but has crossed over from death to life.” John 5:24 This verse does not say, "will not be condemned unless he stumbles", nor does it say or imply in any way "but has crossed over from death to life unless he decides to cross back to death".

Yes, God has done it all for us as far as salvation goes. Getting from death to life (saved) is a gift from God. The term “grace” indicates that we can do nothing for salvation. The term “gift” indicates that we can do nothing for salvation. The term “not of works” indicates that we can do nothing for salvation. (See Ephesians 2:8 and 9)

Getting saved is one event that happens in the process of becoming a Christian. After you get saved you are expected to be the Christian that God created you to be. This includes works. (See Ephesians 2:10) We are clearly told that we have been created in Christ Jesus to do good works. This is an obligation that we have to God. WE are to do the good works in order to produce fruit. If we do not produce fruit, according to John 15:1 and 2 the father will remove us.

See my answer to JohnT about what eternal life is. These verses that you have posted here say nothing about OSAS. The quoted verses tell us that God loves the lost as well as the saved. If he didn’t love the lost then there would be no one saved. The verses also tell us about salvation that occurs before we are required to do works.

Getting saved is a gift of God but living the Christian live is something that the saved are required to do.



Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

[Saxon]

Lets also look at the following sections of scripture.
“Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord,as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.”
2 Peter 1:2-4
Let’s first notice that it was Him who called us and the plan of salvation was conceived and carried out by His divine power. When people realize that they do not have to become like Christ on their own power, and with their own resources, but instead we can rely on the riches and wealth we have been given by God and the fact that it is Him who keeps us we can have ***urance. He has enabled us, once born again to escape corruption.

“For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.” Galatians 2:19-21
Who lives the Christian life, is it me or Christ through me? If it depends on me to stay saved and I fail then Christ died in vain.

Directly after verses 2 to 4 Peter waded in with verses 8 to 10, warning us to make sure of our calling and election. Peter did not preach or teach OSAS.

He has enabled us to escape corruption by his power and through his word. If we do not obey his word we will take our selves away from his protection, just as the lost sheep that would have died away from the shepherd’s protection if he had not been found. The sheep was really lost.

Yes we life by faith in the Son of God. If your faith is turned away from Christ by the deception of seducing spirits (See 1Timothy 4:1) and you fail to give diligence to make your calling and election sure The results can become disastrous to lose of salvation.

There is nothing to indicate that we are trapped in the Christian walk. Galatians 2:20 states that we live in the flesh we live by the faith of the Son of God. This verse in no way negates the warnings in 2 Peter 1:10 and 1Timothy 4:1 or any other that I have mentioned during the time that we have been discussing this subject. You as a believer do have responsibilities that only you can do. We were not saved to become stagnate and just go with the folw. We are under specific directions as how ti live a Christian life. If we do not want to do what he asks of us we will become the fruitless vine in John 15:1 and 2.

Notice that Galatians was written to people that Paul was concerned that they were already fallen from Christ. See the last Galatians references, Paul was not preaching OSAS.

2 Peter 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

1Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

[John T]

Originally Posted by Saxon

What does not compute is the idea that something can be right and wrong at the same time. Even in God’s realm this is not possible.

I think that you would agree that God had inspired Ezekiel to write Ezekiel 18:24. This statement makes it clear that OSAS is NOT an option.


All scripture is true and all scripture is from God. God’s word is in harmony. Harmony does not mean that things that seem to oppose each other are correct in the supposed opposition. In other word right and wrong; yes and no are not the same.

A person has to come to a conclusion but it cannot be that it is right and the opposite is also right. That is beating the dead horse.


This is not an issue that determines if one is saved or not but it can effect the out come at the end of the earthly life.

If OSAS is true then there is nothing to worry about. The only real problem with OSAS if it were true is that you can never know if you are saved. If you die believing OSAS and it is not true and you fail to repent of sins committee while saved then you will be held accountable for them. (See Ezekiel 18:24)

If OSAS is not true then there is nothing to worry about because when you start to fall away you just have to repent and go on living for God. If I die not believing OSAS then it is ok because if it was true I just didn’t believe it, no big deal.

I am not setting up polarities, they are there before I was even born. God did not set up polarities but people that cannot reconcile eternal life /everlasting life and loss of salvation have set up the polarities.

And believing OSAS isn’t equally dividing brothers in Christ???

Salvation is by grace through faith, not on what doctrines you believe. When we all get to heaven we are going to be surprised at who gets there and who doesn’t.

How did you ever come to the conclusion that I would hold that extreme view?? I have had people tell me that I am not saved because I do not believe OSAS. That is just as absurd.


If you think that I am placing too much emphasis on the phrase "in Christ" you will have to complain to the author as it was him that mentioned it. In Christ is the key to the whole affair and I am putting too much emphasis on it. You need a reality check.

There is no scripture that supports the position that one can "place himself in Christ”. Besides placing ones self in Christ, if it were possible, is not the problem. The problem is departing from the living God. (See Hebrews 3:12) The thought of place ones self in Christ, is not the cornerstone of my position. Being in Christ is the cornerstone of all of Christianity. In Christ is salvation, outside of Christ is lost sinners. I am not placing too much emphasis on “in Christ” it is you not putting enough emphasis on “in Christ”.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

All I did was attempt to have you think differently; however, you have demonstrated that you fail to consider the merits of another poster's ideas, that you are very rigid in your thinking, very selective in the Bible verses you cite (you did NOT address any of the verses I selected) very confrontational in that you set up non -scriptural either/or meaning right/wrong polarities from God's word and very rude because you say I need a "reality check" as if I was neurotic or having a mental illness.

And all of this is because I attempted to create a bridge of understanding in a nice, friendly manner. I made red your offending remarks. Your posts to me are primary reasons why I stay out of the Calvinism/Arminian mud slinging. Therefore with this post I unsubscribe to this thread.

For what you have done in this thread to others and me, may the Lord rebuke you, and may Holy Spirit convince you of the error of your prideful ways.

[Saxon]

All I did was attempt to have you think differently; however, you have demonstrated that you fail to consider the merits of another poster's ideas, that you are very rigid in your thinking, very selective in the Bible verses you cite (you did NOT address any of the verses I selected) very confrontational in that you set up non -scriptural either/or meaning right/wrong polarities from God's word and very rude because you say I need a "reality check" as if I was neurotic or having a mental illness.

What you would have me do is to go along with your idea that both sides to the discussion are right. This is a situation that no matter how friendly you wish to be you cannot have both “sets” of verses correct as it is a total impossibility. That is the reality that you need to check. It has nothing to do with the state of your mental stability as you wish to think.

And all of this is because I attempted to create a bridge of understanding in a nice, friendly manner. I made red your offending remarks. Your posts to me are primary reasons why I stay out of the Calvinism/Arminian mud slinging. Therefore with this post I unsubscribe to this thread.

You are the one that has come into this discussion unprepared and unwilling to think differently. I have told you what I believe to be true and when it flys in the face of what you seem to expect me to believe you get offended and quit the thread. I have never tried to force anyone to believe what I am saying. My hope is that the scriptures that I present will speak for themselves, if you actually take the time to see what is being said in the scriptures and believe them instead of the OSAS doctrine that is nowhere stated or, as far as I can see, even alluded to anywhere in the word of God.

For what you have done in this thread to others and me, may the Lord rebuke you, and may Holy Spirit convince you of the error of your prideful ways.

What is it that I have done to you and others on this thread except present what I honestly believe to be the truth. If you think that is error and pride, you are free to think that way if you want.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by disciple

Hi Saxon, So it's your position that the Christian is totally responsable for keeping himself saved. No verse in the Bible makes that true.

1 Timothy 4:16--King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

I would call that a shared responsibility.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

1 Timothy 4:16--King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

I would call that a shared responsibility.

"Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee."

I see the point you are trying to make but that is not the context of 1 Tim.
Paul is writing to Timothy to encourage and instruct him on how to be a good Pastor.
The two requirements of a good pastor, take heed how you live your life
and pay attention to what you teach. A pastor must also continue to live
according to sound doctrine because if he doesn’t no one will pay attention
to what he teaches and of course a good example is not enough what he
teaches must be the truth. You will note that the scripture says “in doing
this” and not “by doing this” you will save both yourself and those who hear you.
Since we cannot save ourselves or anyone else, in this context continuing to teach
sound doctrine will save both the preacher and those who hear him from error,
heresies and false teaching.

[alanmolstad]