Is Election the Only Means of Salvation?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Saxon

Then God has predetermined .....

Consider the Text at Romans 8:29

The text says "he also..."

Not "He therefore..."

This teaches us that God does not predestine things that he has to use his foreknowledge to see happen that way anyway....

"also".....

Not "later on".....Not "Because of"


The predestination of God is not dependent on how things happen anyway without Him...

In other words, God does not need to see how things end before he can predetermine how they will end....
A god who did that would be fake.

[alanmolstad]

Paul tells us the answer to all your questions in just 11 short verses....

Dr Walter Martin deals with all the questions and doubts you have about God's nature and control of this world

[Saxon]

Consider the Text at Romans 8:29

The text says "he also..."

Not "He therefore..."

This teaches us that God does not predestine things that he has to use his foreknowledge to see happen that way anyway....

"also".....

Not "later on".....Not "Because of"


The predestination of God is not dependent on how things happen anyway without Him...

In other words, God does not need to see how things end before he can predetermine how they will end....
A god who did that would be fake.

Yes, let us consider Romans 8:29. What did God foreknow? He foreknew those that would be in Christ were the ones that he would predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son. There is no text that states that he forced anyone to be saved or not to be saved. Your wild idea of what predestination and foreknowing is, is nothing more than vane imaginings on your part.

Let us go back to Ephesians 1:1 to 6. Here we find that it is only those that are in Christ that are predestined to anything that God predestines people to. It is only those that are in Christ that God has blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places. It is only those that are in Christ that he has chosen.

As far as predestination, so far we have only found that God has predestinated people to be conformed to the image of his Son (see Romans 8:29) and predestinated us unto the adoption of children. (See Ephesians 1:5) So far there is absolutely no mention of any predestination to salvation or hell for that matter. If there is anything in scripture that even suggests that, you will have to be kind enough to show me.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Saxon

....... What did God foreknow?.......

all things.....

God foreknew all things, and "also" predestined them to happen.
everything that will happen, from even before the beginning of time....


The word "also" is showing us that foreknowledge of God does not happen before He predestined things to happen.


Too many people believe that God just cheated and looked at the ending line up of people that make it to heaven one day, and think that God used that list of names to know who to predestine...

That is error!

Its error because it makes God into a person who is held by the grip of time.

But God is not so limited that he has to cheat by sneaking a peek at the answers in the back of the book to see who He should call and who he should not call.



Thus God sees me with him eternally in heaven with Himself, and has been seeing me there with Him from before the world was made.
Nothing was left to chance!
Nothing was left for someone else to decide
Nothing was left unknown.

Thus Im a saved Christian for only one reason...God made it so.
Im a Christian because that is the way God wanted it to be, and it is the way it has always been in His eyes....

[alanmolstad]

it reminds me of the conversation I had with a guy named Billy here on this forum.

And he believed that when God used people in the bible that this means they lacked what we call "Free will"

But I showed Billy how the Bible clearly teaches us in the story of the Exodus how God can fully and completely control a person like Pharaoh and yet at the same time God never needed to take away the free will of Pharaoh .

So that is why we read a story in the Bible where we see that Pharaoh was only doing exactly what God forced him to do, yet also we read that at no point was the free will of Pharaoh removed to do this.

[Saxon]

The answer is still centered on being "in Christ" This video you have supplied confirms it as well.

[alanmolstad]

the Pharaoh question:

many who disagree with the idea that men have Free Will always love to point to the text talking about Pharaoh.
the key thing that they want to point out is where the text clearly says that "God hardened his heart"

To some people this proves that Pharaoh lacked free will, because it seems God forced him to do stuff against his will.

But if you dig a bit deeper you see another thing in play too.
The other thing you see is that just as the text tells us that "God hardened Pharaoh's heart" is also teaches just as clearly that "Pharaoh hardened his own heart" too.

So the text actually claims both things were going on at the same time....

Yes, God is still Sovereign and God did hardened the heart of Pharaoh....and yes, Pharaoh did hardened his own heart at the same time too!


This is why I always tell people that the Bible teaches > "Man has Free Will, and God is Sovereign"




So in the real world, what does this mean to us today and our topic?
It means that when God does something in our lives, if He perfoms some action to put His plans into effect, He does so without needing to first take away our Free Will.

God did a work in the life of Pharaoh, but never even for a second needed to strip away the Free Will of Pharaoh to carry out His plans.


Its my understanding that the example we are given of God being able to carry out his plans yet maintaining the Free Will of Pharaoh is something that carries-over into all of our lives too.

If God has a plan for your life, and is at work in accomplishing His plan in your life, God does so without needing to take away your free Will!


how does God do this?.....we dont know.

But the information we get from the text leads us to the conclusion that Man's free will is not taken away, nor is a challenge to God....rather God's plans take the free will of men into full account at all times.

So when we read in the Bible where it teaches us that God bound someone, or held them, or stopped them from doing something, that we need to keep in mind the more complete example of this same thing going on in the life of Pharaoh.
For in the example of Pharaoh we can learn that while God has free will to do what he wants, so too does man have free will within the sovereignty of God over his world.

[Saxon]

If God forced Pharaoh, then there was no free will involved. You can't have it both ways.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Saxon

If God forced Pharaoh, then there was no free will involved. You can't have it both ways.

Yes you can...
Who says you cant?.....who made up such a rule?...

[alanmolstad]

Pharaoh was forced to do what he did by God.
He had no other path...it was set in stone to go the way it went from before the world was made...
Nothing was left for someone else to decide how it would go...
Nothing was left in doubt.
The Lord never left part of the story up to someone else to decide.

yet at the same time.

pharaoh had complete free will to do whatever he wanted to do.

[Saxon]

I do not think that you know what you are talking about. you contradict yourself using English terms that are contrary to what you are saying. "foreknowledge of God does not happen before He predestined things to happen." that is not foreknowledge, that is stating what God will do. If God looks to you in the future, say 22 November 2015, and says you will eat a green apple instead of the red one that is also available, that is foreknowledge. On 22 November 2015 you do eat the green apple instead of the red apple. This isn't because God caused you to eat the green apple it is because he saw you eat the green apple. There is a difference between predestination and foreknowledge. You don't seem to see the difference.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Saxon

I do not think that you know what you are talking about. .......

I have had this conversation before....


http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/s...highlight=free

[Saxon]

You likely can be wet and dry all over ant hte same time. Lots of luck on that.

[alanmolstad]

One time I was challenged by this question:
Romans 913 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Did God love Esau?


My answer was "yes"
and I showed how it is very true.
And to some who would read my words they would catch the meaning...
But others seem to only to get frustrated, and turn to personal attacks and insult etc.

[Saxon]

free will noun

: the ability to choose how to act

: the ability to make choices that are not controlled by fate or God

you are not correct according to http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/free%20will

[Saxon]

And your point is??

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Saxon

And your point is??

Man has free will, and God is Sovereign.

[Saxon]

Show me your scriptural support that Pharaoh was "forced" to do what he did. You are a fatalist.

[Saxon]

fa•tal•ism noun \-tə-ˌli-zəm\

: the belief that what will happen has already been decided and cannot be changed

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fatalist

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Man has free will, and God is Sovereign.

I tell a story to people when the topic of free will comes up, as a way to help them see how you can have God forcing Pharaoh to do things, and yet at the same time allowing Pharaoh to have free will to make up his own mind what he wanted to do.


Think of being a p***enger on a great ship at sea.
You have the freedom to walk around the ship in a clockwise direction, or in the anti-clockwise direction.
Yet although you have this freedom you are still just a helpless p***enger on board a great ship that is always under the firm control of the Skipper.

So both your freedom (freewill) and the Skipper's control of the ship (God's Sovereignty) work hand-in-hand together without getting each other's way.

[Saxon]

the Pharaoh question:

many who disagree with the idea that men have Free Will always love to point to the text talking about Pharaoh.
the key thing that they want to point out is where the text clearly says that "God hardened his heart"

To some people this proves that Pharaoh lacked free will, because it seems God forced him to do stuff against his will.

But if you dig a bit deeper you see another thing in play too.
The other thing you see is that just as the text tells us that "God hardened Pharaoh's heart" is also teaches just as clearly that "Pharaoh hardened his own heart" too.

So the text actually claims both things were going on at the same time....

Yes, God is still Sovereign and God did hardened the heart of Pharaoh....and yes, Pharaoh did hardened his own heart at the same time too!


This is why I always tell people that the Bible teaches > "Man has Free Will, and God is Sovereign"

You have come to the correct conclusion but you reasoning is totally out to lunch. God is Sovereign and within the sovereignty of God man has free will. God wants to save people, but people must respond to the call of God. God’s sovereignty does not make him a holy crybaby that gets his own way or nothing. The Bible is clear that it is not God’s will that any should parish but that all should come to repentance. (See 2 Peter 3:9) It is obvious that not all will come to repentance. Does this mean that God’s sovereignty is lost or even challenged? No because in the sovereignty of God man has been allowed to have a free will even if it goes against what God wants.

As far as God hardening Pharaoh’s heart, God did not do the deed but Pharaoh did it of his own accord in an act of rebellion and defiance of God. That is why it is said that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart. If God so loved the world, why would he harden anyone’s heart????

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[Saxon]

that is true.

[Saxon]

God forcing is still contrary to free will.

Being on many ships I know that I have no will to go too far forward, aft, port or starboard. It soon becomes equivalent to taking a long walk on a short pier.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

So both your freedom (freewill) and the Skipper's control of the ship (God's Sovereignty) work hand-in-hand together without getting each other's way.

So this is why I try to point people to the true understanding of the life of Pharaoh.
The Bible clearly tells us that Pharaoh was being controlled by God.
There was nothing left to chance here by the Lord.
The Lord wanted Pharaoh to act and do things, and that is just what Pharaoh did.....

And yet at the same time we also read in other parts that Pharaoh was alone responsible for his actions.


When you study this story you also learn about how God interacts with the whole rest of creation too.
For there is nothing in the text to suggest that what happened to Pharaoh was any different than the way God treats all others....

So I believe God treats me in the same manner.
Im under the full control of God at all times, and that yet is also at work within my human free will to be free of any control over my life at all.


So when people tell me, that I cant believe in free will if I also believe God controlled Pharaoh I just smile....

[Saxon]

you say "we read"; where do we read?? I agree that God treated Pharaoh the same as he treats the rest of the human race. God is not a respecter of persons.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: