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  1. #1
    jade84116
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    Is Eastern Orthodoxy a cult? It does seem to fall under the evangelical definition of a cult after all?

  2. #2
    Trinity
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    Quote Originally Posted by jade84116 View Post
    Is Eastern Orthodoxy a cult? It does seem to fall under the evangelical definition of a cult after all?
    No.

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  3. #3
    jade84116
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    Post Huh?

    Let me see if I understand. It views it's church as the true church, rejects salvation by grace through faith alone, puts the church and tradition ahead of the Bible, and engages in one false doctrine after another and it's not a cult. What's wrong with that picture?

  4. #4
    Trinity
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    Quote Originally Posted by jade84116 View Post
    Let me see if I understand. It views it's church as the true church, rejects salvation by grace through faith alone, puts the church and tradition ahead of the Bible, and engages in one false doctrine after another and it's not a cult. What's wrong with that picture?
    Prejudices. Sometimes people do not understand the vocabulary of the other traditions (churches). They are seeing things, the things that are not there. The Orthodox believe that the salvation is a grace of God, but this grace would also produce fruits. There is compatibility between the grace and a behavior that mirror this grace.

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  5. #5
    TimLScheffer
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    Quote Originally Posted by jade84116 View Post
    Eastern Orthodox put the church and tradition ahead of the Bible, ...
    Is this a true statement Trinity?

  6. #6
    Columcille
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimLScheffer View Post
    Is this a true statement Trinity?
    Like the Catholics, the Eastern Orthodox recognize that the bible is part of the tradition. Can you produce for me any canon of N.T. scripture by early Church fathers in the second and third century that agrees with our current 27 books? Some rejected Hebrews, some rejected Revelations, some rejected Jude, some rejected 2 Peter, some included the Shepherd of Hermas, etc... . While the books deemed as inspired were written after Christ by people who witnessed him, their is no consistent individual in the Church whose has such authority. Only the collective body of Christ, his Church as run by those that preserved the Scriptures and was ecclesiastically handed the authority from a lineage direct to the Apostles seems much more weighty than some post-Reformationist rationalism that made Luther reject James and other N.T. books.

    Other than that, you would have to be more specific about what you mean by putting Tradition ahead of Scripture.

  7. #7
    TimLScheffer
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    OK, more specificly, where the NIV or King James disagree with their Tradtion, which one reigns as the Authority?

  8. #8
    Columcille
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimLScheffer View Post
    OK, more specificly, where the NIV or King James disagree with their Tradtion, which one reigns as the Authority?
    NIV or KJV are translations. I think perhaps you are mistaken about "Tradition" with "textual criticism." I would not be surprised if some autographs were still floating around in the first few centuries of the Christian Church from which the NIV nor the KJV can claim any special criticism... I will ***ume you are a KJV only--Textus Receptus preferred individual and would, if holding that position, would claim further a divine textual criticism that rejects any scientific approach or a social and linguististical comparison between the various existing texts.

  9. #9
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    Default Apotheosis -- Robert A. Morey's book denies

    According to Dr. Martin's putative hand-picked successor, old churches are not called cults. Dr. Martin called the Roman Church apostate, according to Robert A. Morey, the author of "Is Eastern Orthodoxy Christian?", a long-time friend of Dr. Martin. The latter instead spoke of "The Cult of Liberalism," a movement within the mostly apostate Mainline Denominations
    (-Dr. Martin's ***ociate radio-host, Prof. Craig Hawkins [ http://www.ApologeticsINFO.org ]).

    Dr. Morey's Doctorate of Ministry in Comparative Religion was conferred by Westminster seminary in Philadelphia, PA (whose Pres. was J. Gresham Machen; Francis A. Schaeffer was Dr. Morey's Professor).

    A short description of the book:
    http://shop.faithdefenders.com/produ...ochristian.htm
    A longer list of contents (more articles @ search engine, Right Column):
    http://biblicalthought.com/blog/is-e...oxy-christian/

    The E.O. priest, who interrupted Dr. Morey's church, demanding the retraction of the book from publication (http://biblicalthought.com/blog/o-happy-day/), reminds me of Alexander the Great protesting to Aristotle about A's divulgence of the Mystery Religion by which Al. claimed to attain victories
    (-Stanley Monteith, M.D., retired [http://www.RadioLiberty.com], via KBRT-AM [http://www.kbrt740.com], Sat., 12 p.m. P.T.).

    On R.M.'s radio program circa 2003, a caller, himself a member of the EOC, didn't acknowledge what R.M. said that a high-ranking E.O. clergyman said. The latter said that non-E.O. falsely suppose that E.O. members mean that they seek to be more godly when they say that they are being deified. Frank Schaeffer, Junior admits that he seeks to become God.

    Non-Greek people are not as accepted in that Organization as ethnic Greeks are.
    Last edited by Tee Ar @ FB; 06-30-2010 at 05:27 PM.

  10. #10
    Columcille
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    Welcome to the forum. Not sure I follow your point. Seems a hogpog of different points. I do not follow R.M. radio program. The individuals you describe as EO members sound out of place. They do not sound like run of the mill EO members that I know. What I have been taught by my EO chaplin, does not sound close to what is being presented in your short clips.

  11. #11
    chris123
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    wow what a great session of answering the questions. i like it very much.and today i am here unintentionally but next time i will be here witth a great question that will be very beneficial for all of these posters. any how wait me and i will miss all of yoiu people.

  12. #12
    ErikErik
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    Quote Originally Posted by jade84116 View Post
    Let me see if I understand. It views it's church as the true church, rejects salvation by grace through faith alone, puts the church and tradition ahead of the Bible, and engages in one false doctrine after another and it's not a cult. What's wrong with that picture?

    Yep, it certainly falls under the guidelines of a cult.

  13. #13
    pilgrim1411
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    Read "BIBLE, CHURCH AND TRADITION", by Florovsky to get a proper Orthodox understanding of the natures of Scripture, the Church and Tradition.

  14. #14
    alanmolstad
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    Do theye believe in the resurrection of the Lord jesus Christ?

    That he died for our sins, and because of his blood we are saved by Grace though faith?

    Do they teach the trinity?

  15. #15
    Columcille
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Do theye believe in the resurrection of the Lord jesus Christ?

    That he died for our sins, and because of his blood we are saved by Grace though faith?

    Do they teach the trinity?
    I know that the Eastern Orthodox believe in the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ, and they do belief one is saved by grace through faith and they are Trinitarian. However, your second question does appear to me loaded with a type of interpretation from some p***ages from St. Paul that does not accept interpretations from other p***ages say from St. James and others where there necessitates works coming out of that grace recieved. The works do not provide salvation, they are an indicator to building one's character in the image of God we are to live. Even St. Paul continues on in Ephesians 2 and states, "For we are his workmanship, created for good works in Christ." You cannot expect doing works of evil and ***ume your "faith," trust in, God is going to give you a free ride for a cheap grace used to be a dirty welcoming mat, a spit in God's figurative face while saying you love him in word but in action anything but. It is probably a semantical thing, for I think if you understand the proper relation that works has in relation to grace and faith, we are not far from each other.

  16. #16
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Columcille View Post
    However, your second question does appear to me loaded with a type of interpretation ...
    I was not really asking what you believed...I was asking what the church in question believes?....

    Do they believe in what i have stated yes or no?

  17. #17
    pilgrim1411
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Do theye believe in the resurrection of the Lord jesus Christ?

    That he died for our sins, and because of his blood we are saved by Grace though faith?

    Do they teach the trinity?
    You have got to be kidding me. We are the ones who gave you those doctrines. Study the history of the Church. Study the writings of the Fathers, the canons, creeds and confessions. All of the orthodox (small "o") doctrines in your faith, are residuals from the Orthodox Church that your leaders carried into your own particular brand of "Christianity" from us.

  18. #18
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by pilgrim1411 View Post
    You have got to be kidding me......
    Again, Im not at all interested in your views..

    I was asking what the church in question believes and teaches?

  19. #19
    Columcille
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Again, Im not at all interested in your views..

    I was asking what the church in question believes and teaches?
    Since pilgrim is Orthodox, he is telling you what the Church believes and teaches. I wish he would quote more from his bishops, patriarches, and the councils of his Church to support it... but he is quite right that the "orthodox" beliefs that mainline Protestants and all of Christendom hold stem from the Orthodox Church... I should hope he would recognize it as the "Catholic" Church as is recited in the Nicene Creed and understands his history that even the Roman Popes were part of that history even long after much of the early era of the Church until 1054 when the tensions became too great. I can find agreement with him in the 7 Ecumenical Councils and much of the important regional council decisions.

    What I perhaps get, that Pilgrim may or may seem to understand from your criticism, is that there are individuals in the communion who do not abide by the teachings of the Church. Just because someone claims to be Orthodox, does not mean he adhers completely to Orthodoxy. We call people like this in the Catholic Church to be "Cafeteria Catholics," because they pick and choose what they want to believe. However, I can understand from the catechesis which many seem to forget is that efficientcy in the sacraments is found in obedience to the Church's teachings. People who are participating in the Divine Liturgy and recieving the Eucharist while acting inconsistent with the doctrines and morals of Orthodoxy are eating and drinking the body and blood of the Lord unworthily as 1 Cor. 11.18-19.

    For, to begin with, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you; and to some extent I believe it. Indeed, there have to be factions among you, for only so will it become clear who among you are genuine. (NRSV, 1 Cor. 11.18-19)

    When the Protestants come together, most only do the Lord's supper once a month (changed from year). But the instructions given by St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 11.33 "So then, my brothers and sisters, when you come together to eat, wait for one another." The time frequentcy of the instruction from the beginning of this p***age in verse 17 with the detailed instruction of the use of the bread and wine and of self reflection and proclaiming the Lord's death until he comes... Protestants don't need self-reflection but once a month, very rarely do they do it every time they come together. At least in the Catholic Church and Orthodox Churches, self-reflection when coming together for M*** or Divine Liturgy is a daily event.


    There alanmolstad, I corrected my mistakes. I made bold the point within the paragraph that would have reflected the whole. It was an inconsistency, the fact you only seemed to see "year" and stopped right there and not seen where I know have made bold should have been an indicator that the time was not in agreement. You know as well as I, that there is probably no church who does communion once a year. Reflecting on the bold type now, I would rather your criticism of the first sentence be conjointed with the later. I would have expected you to have read the whole paragraph and stated instead, "don't you mean "once a month?" I don't know your frame of mind in your criticism, but my perception is you didn't read the whole paragraph.
    Last edited by Columcille; 08-27-2011 at 08:04 AM. Reason: edited mistake and commented on it.

  20. #20
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Columcille View Post
    When the Protestants come together, most only do the Lord's supper once a year. .

    what church does it only once a year?.....

  21. #21
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Columcille View Post
    When the Protestants come together, most only do the Lord's supper once a year.
    I have to again ask what church only does the Lord's supper once a year?

  22. #22
    Columcille
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    I have to again ask what church only does the Lord's supper once a year?
    If you read the whole paragraph, you would notice that I stated the word month. That sentence was a misspeak. The point of my argument still stands. If all you want to do is point out grammar errors and mistakes in an attempt to discredit the valid points of an argument, then I don't see how you can be so confident in your own worldview.

  23. #23
    alanmolstad
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    I cant read your mind Columcille...

    You always had the ability to edit or come back later and make your point more clear....did you?

    I cant read your mind and so when you posted "year" and that's was all there was to go on...I took you at your word.

    I don't think this is a grammar mistake at all...nor a spelling mistake.

    However it is an editing mistake.

    Please try to look at it that way, and understand that unless you post what you mean, I will ***ume you mean what you post...

  24. #24
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Columcille View Post
    Protestants don't need self-reflection but once a month, .
    As a person that leans to the more protestant point of view I don't understand where this "rule" about my only needing a once a month self-reflection is written down at?

    "Self-reflection" seems to be a term used to talk about a very personal moment...

    Are you talking about an organized time of self-reflection during a church service?

    Is it your understanding that guys like me only have private moments of self-reflection when its a listed part of a church service, and comes before one thing on the list and after another?...LOL

  25. #25
    Columcille
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    As a person that leans to the more protestant point of view I don't understand where this "rule" about my only needing a once a month self-reflection is written down at?

    "Self-reflection" seems to be a term used to talk about a very personal moment...

    Are you talking about an organized time of self-reflection during a church service?

    Is it your understanding that guys like me only have private moments of self-reflection when its a listed part of a church service, and comes before one thing on the list and after another?...LOL
    The self reflection is tied to 1 Corinthians 11.27-29:
    "Whomever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be answerable for the body and blood of the Lord. Examine yourselves, and only then eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For all who eat and drink without discerning the body, eat and drink judgment against themselves."

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