Question

[Columcille]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

As a person that leans to the more protestant point of view I don't understand where this "rule" about my only needing a once a month self-reflection is written down at?

As far as I know, the practice of the Lord's table is practiced once a month by most Protestant churches to be something either practiced for such a long time that it is an unwritten rule. It is just common practice, perhaps seen in the same manner as two opposite sex couples who after living together for years with children and never been married are by some states considered common-law marriage or cohabitation as legal proof of marriage even without a ceremony or certificate. There might be a written rule in the by-laws or even within the perameters of how to conduct the service itself.

[Columcille]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Are you talking about an organized time of self-reflection during a church service?

Is it your understanding that guys like me only have private moments of self-reflection when its a listed part of a church service, and comes before one thing on the list and after another?...LOL

Based on 1 Cor. 11, which I stated earlier without much comment, as well as the practice as it was recieved and handed down, the Church has practiced the Eucharistist service almost daily when they got together. The Church is not based on individuals, but as a community. Hebrews tells us not to forsake the ***embly as some have done. Self-reflection is a private affair, but is connected to the community of believers through the Lord's Table. I'll comment later on the historicity of this practice by searching my logos bible software in the Ante-Nicene Fathers. I should think that people like Clement, who are mentioned directly by Paul in his epistles, and other disciples of the 12 apostles should be very reliable in terms of their continuing the instructions handed down to them.

They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer,44 because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death45 in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect,46 that they also might rise again. It is fitting, therefore, that ye should keep aloof from such persons, and not to speak of47 them either in private or in public, but to give heed to the prophets, and above all, to the Gospel, in which the p***ion [of Christ] has been revealed to us, and the resurrection has been fully proved.48 But avoid all divisions, as the beginning of evils.


Roberts, A., Donaldson, J., & Coxe, A. C. (1997). The Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol.I : Translations of the writings of the Fathers down to A.D. 325 (89) (Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrneans 1 Smy 7). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems.. Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems.

See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the ins***ution55 of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper56 Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the mul***ude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.57


(ibid. 1 Smy 8).

[Columcille]

5. Then, again, how can they say that the flesh, which is nourished with the body of the Lord and with His blood, goes to corruption, and does not partake of life? Let them, therefore, either alter their opinion, or cease from offering the things just mentioned.254 But our opinion is in accordance with the Eucharist, and the Eucharist in turn establishes our opinion. For we offer to Him His own, announcing consistently the fellowship and union of the flesh and Spirit.255 For as the bread, which is produced from the earth, when it receives the invocation of God, is no longer common bread,256 but the Eucharist, consisting of two realities, earthly and heavenly; so also our bodies, when they receive the Eucharist, are no longer corruptible, having the hope of the resurrection to eternity.

Roberts, A., Donaldson, J., & Coxe, A. C. (1997). The Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol.I : Translations of the writings of the Fathers down to A.D. 325 (486) (Ireneas, "Against Heresies 4.18.5). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems.

[alanmolstad]

self reflection is a private matter.

now a denomination can highlight the need for self-reflection by making sure it is made note of and practiced during a church service.

But being a very private affair it is really left to the person to do on their own....even if kneeling at a time set aside for it within a church service.

I believe it was Jesus who gave us the idea that a time of self-reflection is private.

jesus gave many examples of men praying to God and dealing with their own sins during this very private moment .

Can you do self-reflection in front of other people,,,can you do it during an organized church service?...oh yes.

But Jesus also taught of the need to get alone, to go into your room and lock the door, and there find the privacy too.

Is there anything wrong with a denomination highlighting the Christian concept for self-reflection by adding a special place for it during a worship hour?....NO!

I believe that Jesus also makes a strong case for taking a moment to have some self-reflection before you bring your gift to the Lord.

As most churches have a moment of offering during every service, this would be the reason that before every offering in each Protestant church I have attended that there is the moment of sefl-reflection listed in the church bulletin.


So to sum it all up:

Moments of self-reflection are common amoung members of the prodiatant church as well as other branches of the christian church.

Some churches make special notie of the need for self-reflection by including a set-aside moment for people to carry out that during the worship hour.

The time this is done may vary from church to church, and even then it might get moved around.But the fact that Jesus teaches about self-reflection before offering our gifts, (and every church has a moment to bring in the gifts), this leads us to the finding we see in so many Protestant churches of a private moment of reflection before the offering is made....


so .."Self-reflection" is a hallmark of the Protestant church

[Columcille]

Now all you got to do is tie it to 1 Corinthians 11. Because the self-reflection is specifically tied to the Lord's table in this p***age. As a community of believers, the importance of genuineness and of validity tied the Eucharist with a unified body as Ireneus, Ignatius, Justin Martyr, and other Ante-Nicene Fathers who knew the Apostles stated. What each Protestant Church does is insignificant if not tied to Scripture nor to the consistency of truth as it was entrusted from the Apostles on through the ages.

[pilgrim1411]

Originally Posted by jade84116

Is Eastern Orthodoxy a cult? It does seem to fall under the evangelical definition of a cult after all?

The question should be: who has the divine authority to answer that question? It certainly isn't western Protestant or Evangelical "Christianity" which is divided into over thirty thousand divergent sects. This would be like the pot calling the kettle black. They don't even have the right to have an opinion. They are so far gone, so far removed from a proper understanding of the original Christian knowledge, that you can't even get a radar beam fixed on them --to use an expression of Walter.

[Columcille]

Originally Posted by pilgrim1411

The question should be: who has the divine authority to answer that question? It certainly isn't western Protestant or Evangelical "Christianity" which is divided into over thirty thousand divergent sects. This would be like the pot calling the kettle black. They don't even have the right to have an opinion. They are so far gone, so far removed from a proper understanding of the original Christian knowledge, that you can't even get a radar beam fixed on them --to use an expression of Walter.

Pilgrim, the question he asks is addressed to Evangelicals. What do you care of how Evangelicals think about the Orthodox Church? Does not Paul state something about sinners being blinded and doing things that are naturally sinful? In the case of Evangelicals, they do not understand the deposit of faith entrusted to the Apostles and through the Apostles' establishing a succession of bishops. Whether they consider you a cult is one of perception. Your insistence does more harm than good because you fail to reason with them. You are quick to accuse and slow to listen. The better you are at listening to their criticisms, the better able you are to grasp where they misunderstand us departs. You should pray for them and listen to them in hope to have the Spirit speak through you to unveil where their reasoning is faulty. Even Scripture uses reasonings to establish its point, I perceive you to be flying off the handle so to speak. But this is my perception, and perhaps the perception of others. It only in their mind solidifies a cult-like mentality to conform your beliefs to a specific leader... it is like a Mormon deacon sitting in Dr. Walter Martin's forums and stands up and tells all the Mormons it is time to leave because his beliefs were challenged and the deacon felt some might fall away from Mormonism. If Orthodoxy wants to bury its head in the sand at every challenge, which is one reason I have stopped my inquiry into the Orthodox Church, then there is no competent authority to deal with new challenges. At least the Catholic Church has ecumenical councils to face the challenges during the ages... you treat the 7 ecumenical councils with such high regard that no new ecumenical councils are possible because you fail to see the same vibrancy of the Church then as now. However, that is just my perception.

[alanmolstad]

are all the members of the eastern orthodox as equally insulting to other churches?.....or is this just seen around this forum?


Kinda points out the flaw i see in being a member of that church.....you have to have bad manners.

Not my cup of tea kids.....not my cup of tea.....

[alanmolstad]

Once again, the idea that in Protestant churches only hold a moment of self-reflection once a month is something I question.

It seems to me that even if the Protestant church service is not dealing that week with a holy meal, that there always is a point during the service for confession of sins and forgiveness.

I have yet to hear of a church weekly service that had zero opportunities to confess our sins?

[alanmolstad]

self reflection is a very private matter...

while a church may allow a time during the service to have people do self reflection, there is nothing the church can or should do to demand a person do this very private matter.

The idea that a church is the only place where such self reflection is promoted in the bible is a joke.

The best place in my mind for good self reflection is when you are totally and completely "ALONE!"

Then a person has a chance to hear that still, small voice.




Now as for this topic and my view of the eastern orthodox church?.....
My answer is that I dont know too much about that church denomination, however based only on the effects of being a member of that church on some of the posters here, I would suggest not attending for fear of turning into a mean person.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by jade84116

Is Eastern Orthodoxy a cult? It does seem to fall under the evangelical definition of a cult after all?

Before we can tell if that church (or any church) is truly "Christian" or is a "CULT" we have to look at their teachings.

And we dont want to get trapped into thinking that any disagreement on side issues means they must be a false CULT>

So what we need to decide is how the church in question stands on the most important core issues, their core teachings about Christ?



Does the church teach that Christ is God's Son, the 2nd person of the Holy Trinity?

Does the church teach that Christ died on a cross, was buried, and was resurrected from the dead?



These two questions will help us know what we are dealing with....for they should tell us if the church we are talking about is "Christian" or is a CULT.....

[alanmolstad]

yes...I have been to a lot of different types of churches over the years....and in every church that i would call "Christian" there was always a moment where the people were allowed to spend time in self-reflection.

In many of the more modern churches that makes use of music media, they have this moment filled with inspiring music to help the people hush the world around them, and just be with the Lord is quiet contemplation.

[alanmolstad]

Now recently it was learned that the current Bible Answer man has converted to Eastern Orthodoxy.

this caused a lot of radio listeners to now not being able to hear his radio show due to people pulling the plug on his show.

I think that we here might take this time to go over some of the problem teachings of Hank's new church.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

are all the members of the eastern orthodox as equally insulting to other churches?.....or is this just seen around this forum?


Kinda points out the flaw i see in being a member of that church.....you have to have bad manners.

Not my cup of tea kids.....not my cup of tea.....

there have been only a few members of that church to show up here, or that I have run into in my personal life.
And, for some unknown reason, the manners of each have been sub-par.

Im not sure if this is a common thing to see in most if not all members of that church?
Im not sure if people who are that way to begin with are just drawn to that type of church for some reason?
Im not sure if being a member of that church slants you in that direction?

all I know for sure is that based on the history I have had when dealing with members of that same church is that they tend to have a personality that is not really of a type I enjoy being around.