Prayers for Dead Question

[jade84116]

2 Maccabees 12:42-46 tells about the Jew's prayers for the dead, the basis for that practice among the Catholics. 2 Maccabees was present in the Septuagint, the Bible of the early Christians. If that was present in the Septuagint, it was, then, why didn't the early Christians believe it (see 2 Cor. 6:2, KJV)? Just asking a sincere question.

[Trinity]

Originally Posted by jade84116

2 Maccabees 12:42-46 tells about the Jew's prayers for the dead, the basis for that practice among the Catholics. 2 Maccabees was present in the Septuagint, the Bible of the early Christians. If that was present in the Septuagint, it was, then, why didn't the early Christians believe it (see 2 Cor. 6:2, KJV)? Just asking a sincere question.

You will find your answer by reading the Fathers of the Church. In fact, they believed it.

In 2 Timothy 1:18, St. Paul prays for Onesiphorus, who has died. The earliest mention of prayers for the dead in public Christian worship is by the writer Tertullian in 211 A.D. (De exhortatione cas***atis, xi.; De anima, Iviii.; De monogamia, x.; De corona, iii.; Eng. transls. in ANF, vols. iii. iv.).

"We make on one day every year oblations for the dead, as for their birthdays." --Tertullian

“The faithful widow prays for the soul of her husband, and begs for him in the interim repose, and participation in the first resurrection, and offers prayers on the anniversary of his death." --Tertullian

The body is dying but not the spirit. We believe that we are not dead after our body has died. This is why Jesus met two dead men on a hill. Even, the today jews pray for their dead ("Kaddish" prayer).

Orthodox Jews, Catholics, and Orthodox Christians pray for the departed.

C. S. Lewis wrote:

"Of course I pray for the dead. At our age the majority of those we love best are dead. What sort of intercourse with God could I have if what I love best were unmentionable to Him? I believe in purgatory. Our souls demand purgatory, don't they? My favourite image on this matter comes from the dentist's chair. I hope that when the tooth of life is drawn, a voice will say, 'Rinse your mouth out with this.' This will be purgatory." (Letters to Malcolm: Chiefly on Prayer, 107-109)

The earliest Christians prayed for the dead, including Church Fathers such as Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Cyprian, Jerome, Ambrose, Augustine (between 200-500 A.D.)

"If a man departs this life with lighter faults, he is condemned to fire which burns away the lighter materials, and prepares the soul for the kingdom of God, where nothing defiled may enter. For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (I Cor., 3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones? Neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works." (Patres Groeci. XIII, col. 445, 448 [A.D. 185-232]). --Origen

Prayers for the dead were inscribed on the tombs of the early Christians buried in Catacombs.


Latin writing in the catacomb of Precilla that says: "I implore you, brothers to pray whenever you come here and invoke the Father and Son in
all your prayers so that they might save Agape (the person in the tomb) forever".

http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/purgatory.htm

Also, in the catacombs:

"Atticus: sleep inpeace, secure in thy safety, and pray anxiously for our sins;" "Pray for thy parents, Matronata Matrona. She lived one year and 51 days."

“In your prayers remember us who have gone before you.”

Request of the mother of Saint Augustine before she dies (Monica):

Lay this body anywhere; let not the care of it in any way disturb you. This only I request of you, that you would remember me at the altar of the Lord, wherever you be.” (Confessions, Book 9.)

The memory of that request drew from her son this fervent prayer:

“I, therefore, O God of my heart, do now beseech Thee for the sins of my mother. Hear me through the medicine of the wounds that hung upon the wood . . . May she, then, be in the peace with her husband. . . . And inspire, my Lord. . . . Thy servants, my brethren, whom with voice and heart and pen I serve, that as many as shall read these words may remember at Thy Altar, Monica, Thy servant ...”

This is an interesting topic. Do not confound with the practice of the necromancy. This is not the same thing.

Trinity

[TamTam]

Originally Posted by jade84116

2 Maccabees 12:42-46 tells about the Jew's prayers for the dead, the basis for that practice among the Catholics. 2 Maccabees was present in the Septuagint, the Bible of the early Christians. If that was present in the Septuagint, it was, then, why didn't the early Christians believe it (see 2 Cor. 6:2, KJV)? Just asking a sincere question.

The early Christians did believe it.

[jade84116]

Originally Posted by TamTam

The early Christians did believe it.

And 2 Corinthians 6:2, KJV, is what...swiss cheese???????

[Trinity]

Originally Posted by jade84116

And 2 Corinthians 6:2, KJV, is what...swiss cheese???????

No one in purgatory is lost or will go into hell. They are all saved. Purification and justification is not from the same packing. This are two distinctive things. A justified soul is not necessarily, 100% pure and holy. Any justified soul is embarked in the processus of sanctification. A process that is not immediate.

If you die today, you cannot meet God into your present condition. Your sanctification is not totally achieved. It is the same for me. We are two imperfect men. Our souls will be cleaned in the afterlife.

Trinity

[jade84116]

I figured something was wrong due to 2 Corinthians 6:2, KJV, and now I think I know why after some more research. First, the Septuagint that contained the Apocrypha was for Non-Hebrew speaking Jews outside of Judea and it's environs only with the Hebrew speaking Jews in Palestine using the Hebrew Bible that didn't contain the Apocrypha. Second, the early Christians were all Jews prior to Cornelius and headquartered in Jerusalem so, they would've primarily used the Hebrew Bible. Third, the fact that the Hebrew Bible didn't include the Apocrypha suggests reservations about such among the Jews and early Christians. Fourth, the above would reconcile things with 2 Cor. 6:2, KJV, and explain why Prayers for the Dead didn't enter Christendom until the 3rd century A.D. and indicates only a slow acceptance of the Apocrypha in the Septuagint within Christendom. Fifth, this would mean that the early Christians of New Testament times didn't practice Prayers for the Dead (i.e., the Post-Apostolic and Ante-Nicene Fathers advocating such didn't occur until 150 AD or later after the New Testament was written). The dilemma I was in is now reconciled. I consider this thread valuable if for no other reason than the additional things that I learned about the Apocrypha. I consider this thread over now.

[Trinity]

Originally Posted by jade84116

First, the Septuagint that contained the Apocrypha was for Non-Hebrew speaking Jews outside of Judea and it's environs only with the Hebrew speaking Jews in Palestine using the Hebrew Bible that didn't contain the Apocrypha.

Yes, the Septuagint m****cript was a translation. However, the Jews did not have an official canon of the scriptures before 95-100 A.D. (Jamnia council), and even this Jewish canon was contested until the fifth century.

Second, the early Christians were all Jews prior to Cornelius and headquartered in Jerusalem so, they would've primarily used the Hebrew Bible.

Around 96% of the quotations in the New Testament, from the Old Testament, have come from the Septuagint. This is why we know that the authors of the New Testament quoted from the Septuagint when they were writing their books. They had preferred the Septuangit much more than the Hebraic m****cript.

Third, the fact that the Hebrew Bible didn't include the Apocrypha suggests reservations about such among the Jews and early Christians.

Not with the Christians but with the Jews. Remember, the authors of the New Testament had quoted largely from the Septuagint. The Jews disliked the Septuagint because the books were in Greek and not in Hebrew. They were xenophobe, anti-Gentile and anti-Christians.

Fourth, the above would reconcile things with 2 Cor. 6:2, KJV, and explain why Prayers for the Dead didn't enter Christendom until the 3rd century A.D. and indicates only a slow acceptance of the Apocrypha in the Septuagint within Christendom.

There was no Christian canon until the fourth century. Many books were accepted and disputed. The Catholic Church had fixed the canon for the future generations.

Fifth, this would mean that the early Christians of New Testament times didn't practice Prayers for the Dead (i.e., the Post-Apostolic and Ante-Nicene Fathers advocating such didn't occur until 150 AD or later after the New Testament was written).

The twenty-seven books of the New Testament were ***embled in a codex between the third and the fourth century. There was no New Testament in the first and second century, but only a plurality of books, some were contested others not (Some books that we have in our present New Testament were contested, ex: The book of Revelation).

The dilemma I was in is now reconciled. I consider this thread valuable if for no other reason than the additional things that I learned about the Apocrypha. I consider this thread over now.

Always remember this: Paul, Peter, John, Luke, etc, all they quoted texts of the Septuagint in their writings. In brief, they did not want to use the hebraic m****cript for some reasons.

Trinity

[alanmolstad]

its a natural and normal thing to do to remember the lost loved ones in your prayers.

Its hard to lose someone you love deeply...its hard to not have them around anymore to talk to.

We should cut each other some slack on such things, knowing that we all feel a lot of pain at such times.

But the truth is, that we should pray to God alone.

[MichaellS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

its a natural and normal thing to do to remember the lost loved ones in your prayers.

Its hard to lose someone you love deeply...its hard to not have them around anymore to talk to.

We should cut each other some slack on such things, knowing that we all feel a lot of pain at such times.

But the truth is, that we should pray to God alone.

Oh so so true! I recall the word saying such an act as visiting widows at this time is "pure" religion before the Father.