Grace Controversy!

[jade84116]

Evangelicals claim to be moderate Calvinists, but they're divided over how to define what a moderate Calvinist is. Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and Dr. John MacArthur of Grace to You Ministries both insist that a moderate Calvinist believes that salvation is all of God or grace. Other evangelicals like the late Jerry Falwell, Dave Hunt of the Berean Call and Dr. Norman Geisler insist that Grace includes freewill, their mantra being Chosen But Free. White's, MacArthur's, Falwell's, Hunt's and Geisler's videos are online at Youtube.com if you want to immerse yourself in that controversy. Any opinions on the controversy.

[tealblue]

Originally Posted by jade84116

Evangelicals claim to be moderate Calvinists, but they're divided over how to define what a moderate Calvinist is. Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and Dr. John MacArthur of Grace to You Ministries both insist that a moderate Calvinist believes that salvation is all of God or grace. Other evangelicals like the late Jerry Falwell, Dave Hunt of the Berean Call and Dr. Norman Geisler insist that Grace includes freewill, their mantra being Chosen But Free. White's, MacArthur's, Falwell's, Hunt's and Geisler's videos are online at Youtube.com if you want to immerse yourself in that controversy. Any opinions on the controversy.

Here is what we all agree on about grace

1 Its free

2 Its required for salvation

3 Its something God gives us

Here are some questions

1 Is grace unconditional

2 Is grace irrisistable

3 Is grace given only to whom god chooses

4 Can grace be lost

Depending on ones definition of grace changes ones whole perspective on everything about the christian faith.

I personally believe grace is free unmerited favor that transforms us holy so that we can be justified before God.

[Norrin Radd]

Originally Posted by jade84116

Evangelicals claim to be moderate Calvinists, but they're divided over how to define what a moderate Calvinist is. Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and Dr. John MacArthur of Grace to You Ministries both insist that a moderate Calvinist believes that salvation is all of God or grace. Other evangelicals like the late Jerry Falwell, Dave Hunt of the Berean Call and Dr. Norman Geisler insist that Grace includes freewill, their mantra being Chosen But Free. White's, MacArthur's, Falwell's, Hunt's and Geisler's videos are online at Youtube.com if you want to immerse yourself in that controversy. Any opinions on the controversy.

Not ALL Evangelicals make that claim. Many of us are happy to identify with Arminianism. I have seen knowledgeably Wesleyan-Arminians say that in practical terms, Geisler's "Moderate Calvinism" is barely (if at all) distinguishable from Arminianism, and I *think* I recall Geisler's son agreeing. Even in the book that sort of started this round of the debate, Chosen but Free, the book in which he self-identified with "Moderate" Calvinism, Geisler repudiated "Extreme" Arminianism (specifically "Open" Theism), but did not criticize "Moderate" Arminianism. One might reasonably conclude that while he identifies with what he calls Moderate Calvinism, Geisler would not feel far out of place within Moderate Arminianism.

[Saxon]

Originally Posted by jade84116

Evangelicals claim to be moderate Calvinists, but they're divided over how to define what a moderate Calvinist is. Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and Dr. John MacArthur of Grace to You Ministries both insist that a moderate Calvinist believes that salvation is all of God or grace. Other evangelicals like the late Jerry Falwell, Dave Hunt of the Berean Call and Dr. Norman Geisler insist that Grace includes freewill, their mantra being Chosen But Free. White's, MacArthur's, Falwell's, Hunt's and Geisler's videos are online at Youtube.com if you want to immerse yourself in that controversy. Any opinions on the controversy.:)

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 2:8 to 10 is the total explanation of the salvation, faith and works relationship.

that God has towards mankind. Salvation is totally and without exception, a work of grace, by God alone. God is never obligated to save anyone. If God became obligated then being saved by grace would be a false statement. Mankind cannot do anything that would cause God to be obligated to save him or her. The only reason God saves us is because he wants to save us.

Grace (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/grace)

a: unmerited divine ***istance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification
b: a virtue coming from God
c: a state of sanctification enjoyed through divine grace

A practical example of grace is when banks would give 3 days grace to the client who had a loan or a mortgage. When the payment date came and the payment was not made the client had 3 days to make the payment without any extra fees or interest added to the principal. Those 3 days were a period of grace that the bank was not obligated to give a person but it was a free period where the client could make payment before the bank charged extra money. This is just an example of grace as we understand it. God’s grace operates the same way but there is no restriction on the time in this present era.

Faith (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faith)

a (1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God
(2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion
b (1): firm belief in something for which there is no proof
(2): complete trust

It is through faith that God saves us by his grace. Acts 16:30 directly asks the question,” What must I do to be saved?” and Acts 16:31directly answers, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved”. This is all that a human being can do in order to be saved. Having faith and believing still does not obligate God to save anyone. The reason God saves us is that he wants to do it and he chose to save those that believe in Jesus. (See John 3:16)

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Ephesians 2:10 states that we were “created in Christ Jesus unto good works”. Being saved we are placed into Christ and being “in Christ” we will do the works that God has desired us to do. Works are never done to gain salvation but works are a natural result of salvation by the grace of God.

[alanmolstad]

Walter Martin spoke about the errors he saw in Calvinism.....
I have posted the recording link on this forum many times.

I tend to believe as Walter did, in that of the 5 points of Calvinism there are some worth knowing, and some that are worthless

[Saxon]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Walter Martin spoke about the errors he saw in Calvinism.....
I have posted the recording link on this forum many times.

I tend to believe as Walter did, in that of the 5 points of Calvinism there are some worth knowing, and some that are worthless

That is Good but how does it relate to what I posted???

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Saxon

That is Good but how does it relate to what I posted???

your post?...I didnt even read your post.

My post was aimed at this quote taken from the person who started this topic...
"Evangelicals claim to be moderate Calvinists, but they're divided over how to define what a moderate Calvinist is


Walter Martin is connected with this term "Evangelicals"

[alanmolstad]

Jesus could not ask us to follow him, if we were unable to decide to do that.

We could not be asked to "repent" if we were unable to have 2nd thoughts about our actions, and change our minds.

The whole concept of sending out men to spread the word, or preaching the word, of telling people they need to change their ways, , all of this in the Great Commission is based on the idea that humans have free will and can respond.

[Dmarie]

Originally Posted by Decalogue

Saxon - Very good post and right-on-the-money ! You did your homework well. Post more often on the boards here.

Per that silly book by Norman Giesler ... oy voy ---

I used to watch Giesler sometimes back on the TV program hosted by the guy with the scandinavian name and the very blond/white hair. Geisler was a good apologist. ( That was in the late 1980's. ) Time goes by ,,, and then he writes a goofy-fuzzy-headed book with that goofy/fuzzy-headed ***le.
aarrgghh !

If we are "chosen" we are not "free" ! Geisler needs to buy a dictionary and his publisher needs to grow a spine.

There is not one verse in the New Testament that says humans have a "freewill" . If you doubt that statement , then open up your Concordance and give a look-see.

Hi, and blessings.

Well, I byp***ed my concordance, and I went straight to the Word of God, to the begining...in Genesis, in the garden...I read how God did give Adam and Eve the "freewill" to choose between being obedient to Him, or not.
We all know how that went.
God certainly, and obviously didn't make that choice for them, or...
did He?

By the way, I did a "look-see" and the word "Bible" in not found in the Bible either.

Blessings...Dmarie

[alanmolstad]

Dmarie...good commenting

[Saxon]

Originally Posted by Decalogue

Saxon - Very good post and right-on-the-money ! You did your homework well. Post more often on the boards here.

Per that silly book by Norman Giesler ... oy voy ---

I used to watch Giesler sometimes back on the TV program hosted by the guy with the scandinavian name and the very blond/white hair. Geisler was a good apologist. ( That was in the late 1980's. ) Time goes by ,,, and then he writes a goofy-fuzzy-headed book with that goofy/fuzzy-headed ***le.
aarrgghh !

If we are "chosen" we are not "free" ! Geisler needs to buy a dictionary and his publisher needs to grow a spine.

There is not one verse in the New Testament that says humans have a "freewill" . If you doubt that statement , then open up your Concordance and give a look-see.

After re-reading your positive response to my, "Grace is an At***ude" post, I have come to the conclusion that you have not understood my position at all. Your statement, " If we are "chosen" we are not "free"!" alerts me that I have failed to be clear in what I was saying.

Being chosen has nothing to do with being free. 2Timothy 1:9 states that God has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began. Those that were chosen were the ones that were already "in Christ Jesus" before the world began.

Ephesians 2:8 says that we are saved by grace (God's part) through faith (our part). Mankind has the freedom and responsibility to exercise faith in Christ. We have been given faith but we are the ones that resolve where we will place the faith that is given us, in Christ, or in something other than Christ.

You are correct in the fact that a concordance does not have "freewill" in it but neither does it have "Trinity" in it. We have been commanded to choose (See Joshua 24:15 and Isaiah 1:18 to 20).



2Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,


Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.


Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Isaiah 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
Isaiah 1:20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

[alanmolstad]

we are always free...always

and we are always chosen...always...

[Saxon]

Please explain what you are saying and add some support from scripture.

[alanmolstad]

There is nothing stopping any man from believing, but himself and his own free will.
Christ wept for the people of the Holy City not because they 'could not" come to him because there were never drawn ,,,,,but that they "would not " come to him regardless of how much they were drawn.

We never lose our free Will.....
For our Free will is always part of the salvation story...


and that they who do come to Christians not just there by their own efforts, but rather God predestined us to become believers from before the world was made.

[Saxon]

There is nothing stopping any man from believing, but himself and his own free will.
Christ wept for the people of the Holy City not because they 'could not" come to him because there were never drawn ,,,,,but that they "would not " come to him regardless of how much they were drawn.

We never lose our free Will.....
For our Free will is always part of the salvation story...

I totally agree with the above statement. No argument at all.

and that they who do come to Christians not just there by their own efforts, but rather God predestined us to become believers from before the world was made.

I see NOTHING in scripture that states that anyone has been predestined by God to become believers. I see statements that tell us that those that are in Christ, saved people are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. There are those that are in Christ that are predestined to adoption. The only ones that are predestined by God to anything are those that are already in Christ.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

[alanmolstad]

none that are predestined are lost.......none!

all that are predestined are saved....all!

[alanmolstad]

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/walterm...predestination

[Saxon]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

none that are predestined are lost.......none!

all that are predestined are saved....all!

God has chosen us, which are in Christ, to all spiritual blessings before the foundation of the world. In Christ he did also predestinate us unto the adoption of children. In Christ we have obtained an inheritance being predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things after the counsel of his own will. Also, in Christ, after you believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit.

God has not predestined chosen or blessed anyone that is not first in Christ. A person must freely believe and receive Christ in order to partake in the blessings that God has predestined for those that are in Christ and love him.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

God does not predestine or choose anyone to salvation nor does he let the rest “go his or her natural way”. Jesus is the true light that lights every man that comes into the world. (See John 1:9) Every person that ever was or ever will be has an equal opportunity to believe in and receive Christ. God chooses in accordance with the decision that each person has to make, either reject Christ and remain in sin or accept Christ and be saved. God has chosen us because the Spirit has sanctified us and he sanctified us because we believed the truth. (See 2Thess. 2:13)

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

2Thess. 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

[alanmolstad]

there is no "later" with God

God does not actually do anything "after" something else.

God does not "predestine" someone after something else that came first.




Its like what Walter talks about in the link I posted....where the image is that we walk into heaven under a banner of "Welcome all yea who have responded"...only to get on the other side and read on the same banner, "None were lost, all who enter were chosen and predestined from before the world was made, none were lost, all were saved"

[Saxon]

You have said nothing that is of any use to the topic. Your link didn't even say anything .

You are a moderator and you should have more skills at responding to posts that you disagree with.

Show me scripture that even comes close to stating what you have poorly stated.

[alanmolstad]

The point to note is at 6:30 of the video.


"Now, how do you maintain the freedom of God, and His sovereignty, and the freedom of man and his choice?

"Are you ready?"

"You don't" !

"It is an unanswered question. You will search though all scriptures, you will never find the answer"

[Saxon]

Walter is not the inspired source of scripture. I am sure that he would agree. He quoted the same scripture that I quoted in my previous post and has missed the same thing that you have missed. "In Christ" Nothing happens to people (predestination) until they are in Christ. There is no statement directly stating that God predestined anyone to salvation. In the clear statements as to what people are predestined to it is clear that it is the saved that have been predestined. The lost are not included in what God has predestined. Remember we were all born lost sinners and we were NOT in Christ until we were saved in time upon the earth. No one is born saved.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Saxon

You are a moderator and you should have more skills ......

Being a Mod does not make a person smart. (wish it did, but it doesn't)
But it does require one to be patient.

[Saxon]

I am slipping, sorry.

You as a person should be more clear and to the point with your answers. That is my opinion.

[alanmolstad]

from the human point of view:
We are limited in what we see.
We dont know the future.
we are trapped in time, and experence moment after moment.
We age, we get older, we change we learn new things.
To find something out we have to seek answers.

so when I consider my salvation , I can think back to a moment in time when I p***ed from death to life.

My salvation came as the result of a moment in time when I believed.
I was lost one moment, and the next I was saved.
So it all came down to a decision i made.
I was asked to belioeve.
I was told that unless I believed I would remain lost.
So I changed my mind, and I believed and I was from that point on, saved.


thats the human point of view.

its correct, sorta.


But its also way short of the correct answer too.

For when you look at the same question of my salvation from God's point of view, then you see things differently.

God does not learn.
God does not wait
God does not have to glance into the future to know.
God is not held in time's grasp.

My salvation was always a fact in God's eyes.
Nothing was ever in doubt
Nothing was ever left for me to decide,
Nothing was left to chance
Nothing was out of God's full 100% total control.
I was saved because I had always been seen as saved and nothing in the world could change that fact...for it was a fact from the start of the universe!

I was "predestined"...nothing was left in doubt or up to me to decide.

God decided...