Are you ***ured of salvation?

[tealblue]

Originally Posted by Leslie

As a protestant, I do not believe in purgatory. I do think that it, combined with indulgences makes for one of the best money raising ideas ever thought of though. As our friend, John Tatzel once sung "As soon as a coin in the coffer rings, a soul from purgatory springs."

The problem with appealing to Judaism for evidence of purgatory is that the concept is no where found in any of the Old Testament Scriptures. One of the sources for the doctrine is found in II Maccabees, which is strange because if memory serves me the dead jews they prayed for were idolators, which under Catholic doctrine would be a mortal sin and I don't think people who commit mortal sins go to purgatory.

Jesus rebuked the Pharisees and Sadduecees for adding to the Scriptures with their oral teachings and traditions. He said that they had made the command of God void by the traditions of men. Sadly, I think the same thing has happened with our estranged Catholic bretheren.

I think you might be reading too much into this text. They were basically wearing good luck charm which may be a sin but not mortal. They were never refered to as idoloters.

[Leslie]

Originally Posted by tealblue

If you say you were saved at 10 then backslid where you say you were for sure hell bound then you wern't really saved at 10. If you were truly "saved" then you are saved. Thats why the whole idea of being saved at some point in ones life makes no sense because until the end and one is in the grace of God then nothing is certain.

By saved I mean that my sins had been forgiven and I was a Christian.

[Trinity]

Leslie: As a protestant, I do not believe in purgatory.

And I respect this. This is a part of the Catholic eschatology. Our eschatological themes are death, the last judgment, purgatory, resurrection, eternal life, heaven and hell.

I do think that it, combined with indulgences makes for one of the best money raising ideas ever thought of though. As our friend, John Tatzel once sung "As soon as a coin in the coffer rings, a soul from purgatory springs."

I agree that some people in my Church had abused believers with the embellishment of this doctrine. The sin of simony was not only present among catholics but also into the protestantism, in other forms. Even in our days, american televangelists are not better men than some bishops in the Middle Age. Unfortunately, there was some people who misused their authority in both camps.

The Vatican II Council prohibited the sale of indulgences but allowed free-will offerings.

The problem with appealing to Judaism for evidence of purgatory is that the concept is no where found in any of the Old Testament Scriptures. One of the sources for the doctrine is found in II Maccabees, which is strange because if memory serves me the dead jews they prayed for were idolators, which under Catholic doctrine would be a mortal sin and I don't think people who commit mortal sins go to purgatory.

Deuterocanonical books were Scriptures until Martin Luther. He also rejected some Epistles of the New Testament (e.i. Hebrews, James, Jude). Furthermore, he rejected Esther in the Old Testament. He was also uncomfortable with the Book of Revelation. Not too long after the Reformation, not only Luther, but others started criticizing the canon of the Scriptures. And in an attempt to limit the damages the Council of Trent has reaffirmed what was the canon.

In addition, it is still a fact that the doctrine of purgatory was well known in late Judaism and early Christianity. Inscriptions in the walls of CATACOMBS show that purgatory was a common belief by the end of the second century, which is also attested to by Tertullian , St. Cypryan of Carthage and Cyril of Jerusalem, (Catechetical Lectures 29). St. Augustine of Hippo confirms the same type of prayers and also speaks of a purifying fire (City of God 21.26). St. Gregory I (the Great) talks about purgatorial fire removing “light sins” and condones the offering of the Eucharist for the deliverance of the soul of one who has p***ed (Dialogues 4.41, 57). St. Thomas Aquinas gave the cl***ic theological expression to the doctrine in his Commentary on the Sentences (4.21.1).

Purgatory is ***ociated with the theological ideas of dying in peace with Christ but still needing purification, and of Purgatory as a place intermediate between heaven and hell where the soul grows to see God (Eastern Christianity) or suffers and is purified for lesser sins (Western Christianity).

Yes, Luther with his 95 theses has decrying this clinking of coins but he also promised to pop parents from purgatory. It is a mistake to think that Luther theology was identical to the theology of modern christian fundamentalists. Luther would have been more relaxed or less stressed in the today Catholic Church than in any of all the 35,000 denominations in North America.

Concerning the prayer into the Maccabees, this form of prayer was into the Jewish religious customs. However, only God could accept or reject this sort of prayer. This is a possibility that they have prayed in vain because of the evidence of the idolatry that they found, but this never signified that the practice was unusual and bad. All prayers are under the sovereignty of God.

Jesus rebuked the Pharisees and Sadduecees for adding to the Scriptures with their oral teachings and traditions. He said that they had made the command of God void by the traditions of men. Sadly, I think the same thing has happened with our estranged Catholic bretheren.

This is discussable. One thing is certain, the Catholic Church had united the books in a unique canon and at no time after this *** was done, the Catholic Church had criticized, or rejected some books, as Martin Luther did.

Trinity

[Trinity]

To correct some protestant misconceptions about the purgatory.

1) All people in purgatory are saved. This is only a process for the purification before seeing God. The antechamber of Heaven. The doctrine has nothing to do about salvation but only about purification. Christian dead are to be judged according to their works, for their unconfessed sins (not admitted). It is obvious that even if we are saved, we will not be totally purified in this life.

"2 Mc 12.39–45. According to the text, when Judas Maccabee and his men made arrangements for the fitting burial of the soldiers of his army who had died near Adullam, it was discovered that they had worn pagan amulets, contrary to the prescriptions of the Mosaic Law. Judas concluded that God had punished the soldiers for this sinful practice; God’s just judgment was praised, and prayers were offered on behalf of the victims. A collection of 12,000 drachmas was then gathered and sent to Jerusalem to have expiatory sacrifices offered for those who had fallen in battle. The inspired author of 2 Maccabees, a firm believer himself in the resurrection of the dead (2 Mc 7.9, 11, 14, 23, 29), concludes that Judas also believed in the resurrection of the dead. He, therefore, praised Judas, who acted out of consideration for the resurrection of the dead, and argued that, if he had not hoped that the slain should rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them when dead; but if he did this with a view toward the splendid reward that awaited those who died in godliness, it was a holy and
pious thought. Therefore, Judas made atonement for the dead, that they might be freed from sin."

New Catholic Encyclopedia
Thomson-Gale, 2nd Edition.
Vol 11, pp. 824-829

In the Old Testament. the concept of Purgatory appear in the last two centuries before Christ ( R. De Vaux, Ancient Israel, Its Life and Ins***utions, tr. J. McHugh [New York 1961] 60.) Jesus and Paul were well informed about this belief and nowhere in the New Testament this belief was condemned.

In Judaism or in the rabbinical literature, besides the everlasting punishments of GEHENNA and the punishment of sinners, the idea was current that some people would remain only for a time in Gehenna, where they would be purified. Some rabbis interpreted the words of Zec 13.9 in this sense: ‘‘I will bring the one third through fire, and I will refine them as silver is refined, and I will test them as gold is tested.’’ The school of Shammai attributed this purification to the eschatological place of pain, where certain people, through God’s mercy and goodness, would be prepared to enjoy eternal life.

2) In the early Church, prayers and other good works were offered for the departed souls as a matter of common practice. There can be no doubt, then, that the widespread belief of the early Church, as shown by many of the Fathers (TERTULLIAN, ORIGEN, CYPRIAN, EPHRAM, AMBROSE, AUGUSTINE, CHRYSOSTOM, CAESARIUS OF ARLES, and GREGORY THE GREAT; texts in Enchiridion patristicum, ed. M. J. Rouët de Journel [21st ed. Freiburg im Breisgau 1960] index 587–589) and as evidenced by the liturgy, demanded the existence of a state after death in which the souls of the just would be fully purified from any remains of sin before entering heaven.

The teaching of the Eastern Church today displays some differences from that of the West. The dead find themselves in an intermediate state, awaiting the day of the final judgment. The good already enjoy some foretaste of heaven, while the evil experience some of the torments of hell. Beyond this, Eastern doctrine is not too clear, although their theologians in general reject the idea that the purification takes place by fire and that a special place is set aside for it. Since neither of these points was defined in the councils, the seeming opposition between East and West in the matter of purgatory is not insurmountable. In general, the teaching of the Eastern Church reflects the primitive and somewhat undeveloped doctrine of the Fathers of the Church on the status of the departed souls.

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Finally, there is no time in the purgatory because there is no time in Heaven either. However, there are shames (bad conscience), chagrins, dishonors, guilts, humiliations, mortifications, remorse, contrition, forgiveness, reconciliations with ourselves, reconciliations with others, hearing, and revelations about our heart and our mind. This process is more painful for believers who are living denying the pure truth about their impurities, refusing to see themselves like they really are. There is no masks in Purgatory, no one can hide his vices. Some people can fool their church but in Purgatory nobody can be fooled. We will have to face the mirror.

Trinity

[jean]

Originally Posted by tealblue

I just think the once saved always saved additude is dangerous. And unbiblical to say the least. Even to say it was to be totally presumptious about it.

teal,
I agree. I don't believe in 'once saved, always saved.'
We are being sanctified daily. We are to continue to grow and strive for holiness.The Holy Spirit is our constant guide.

God bless,
jean

[jean]

Originally Posted by Trinity

To correct some protestant misconceptions about the purgatory.

1) All people in purgatory are saved. This is only a process for the purification before seeing God. The antechamber of Heaven. The doctrine has nothing to do about salvation but only about purification. Christian dead are to be judged according to their works, for their unconfessed sins (not admitted). It is obvious that even if we are saved, we will not be totally purified in this life.



In the Old Testament. the concept of Purgatory appear in the last two centuries before Christ ( R. De Vaux, Ancient Israel, Its Life and Ins***utions, tr. J. McHugh [New York 1961] 60.) Jesus and Paul were well informed about this belief and nowhere in the New Testament this belief was condemned.

In Judaism or in the rabbinical literature, besides the everlasting punishments of GEHENNA and the punishment of sinners, the idea was current that some people would remain only for a time in Gehenna, where they would be purified. Some rabbis interpreted the words of Zec 13.9 in this sense: ‘‘I will bring the one third through fire, and I will refine them as silver is refined, and I will test them as gold is tested.’’ The school of Shammai attributed this purification to the eschatological place of pain, where certain people, through God’s mercy and goodness, would be prepared to enjoy eternal life.

2) In the early Church, prayers and other good works were offered for the departed souls as a matter of common practice. There can be no doubt, then, that the widespread belief of the early Church, as shown by many of the Fathers (TERTULLIAN, ORIGEN, CYPRIAN, EPHRAM, AMBROSE, AUGUSTINE, CHRYSOSTOM, CAESARIUS OF ARLES, and GREGORY THE GREAT; texts in Enchiridion patristicum, ed. M. J. Rouët de Journel [21st ed. Freiburg im Breisgau 1960] index 587–589) and as evidenced by the liturgy, demanded the existence of a state after death in which the souls of the just would be fully purified from any remains of sin before entering heaven.

The teaching of the Eastern Church today displays some differences from that of the West. The dead find themselves in an intermediate state, awaiting the day of the final judgment. The good already enjoy some foretaste of heaven, while the evil experience some of the torments of hell. Beyond this, Eastern doctrine is not too clear, although their theologians in general reject the idea that the purification takes place by fire and that a special place is set aside for it. Since neither of these points was defined in the councils, the seeming opposition between East and West in the matter of purgatory is not insurmountable. In general, the teaching of the Eastern Church reflects the primitive and somewhat undeveloped doctrine of the Fathers of the Church on the status of the departed souls.

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Finally, there is no time in the purgatory because there is no time in Heaven either. However, there are shames (bad conscience), chagrins, dishonors, guilts, humiliations, mortifications, remorse, contrition, forgiveness, reconciliations with ourselves, reconciliations with others, hearing, and revelations about our heart and our mind. This process is more painful for believers who are living denying the pure truth about their impurities, refusing to see themselves like they really are. There is no masks in Purgatory, no one can hide his vices. Some people can fool their church but in Purgatory nobody can be fooled. We will have to face the mirror.

Trinity

Hello trinity,
I've been wondering about 'Purgatory'? I saw this p***age in 1Cor.3:15. I thought this may possibly fit the discription of Purgatory?
What do you think?

God bless,
jean

[jean]

Originally Posted by jean

Hello trinity,
I've been wondering about 'Purgatory'? I saw this p***age in 1Cor.3:15. I thought this may possibly fit the discription of Purgatory?
What do you think?

God bless,
jean

I guess I should've read your entire post.
Do you, I found that myself.(1Cor.3:15) Aren't you proud of me.
Your the first Catholic That I have come in contact with that has provided a scripture for this teaching.

jean

[tealblue]

Originally Posted by Leslie

By saved I mean that my sins had been forgiven and I was a Christian.

I understand what you are saying. As a catholic I don't believe in the born again concept. I believe in conversion but not a one time decision making one saved. I used to believe in this concept and for me it was too easy too just say God is working in me and I hope I will be sactified one day. I know way too many x christians who were once on fire for God and no more.

[disciple]

Hi TB,
As Christians we need to consider what Jesus said as opposed to what we tend to believe or feel is true based on religious teaching or human logic.

Originally Posted by tealblue

I understand what you are saying. As a catholic I don't believe in the born again concept.
I believe in conversion but not a one time decision making one saved. I used to believe in this concept and for me it was too easy too just say God is working in me and I hope I will be sactified one day. I know way too many x christians who were once on fire for God and no more.

Here is what Jesus said in John 3:3,"Jesus answered and said to him, “Most ***uredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Are you disagreeing with this?

How many decisions does one need to make to be saved? Jesus said in John 5:24 "Most ***uredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has p***ed from death into life."
So what is an x christian, some one who has p***ed from death to life and has p***ed back from life to death? Jesus said we must be born again so it is apparent that some people are born again, so how would you know if you were dead again, one sin, ten sins, missing church 3 weeks in a row?
The scriptures tells us Christ is in us, so what is His criteria for leaving us?
Even when we are born again we still must deal with a sinful nature but Christ is our Mediator, when we are saved we belong to Him, He promised He would not leave us or forsake us. I did not see any "unless" after this promise.

[Leslie]

Saint Jerome, the translator of the Latin Vulgate and one of the few Church Fathers that could read and write both Hebrew and Greek did not accept the Apocrypha as inspired. He did consider them to be profitable to be read in the churches for edification as they do contain alot of good wisdom. but that no doctrine should be made from them.

He's just one example of some of the fathers who did not accept it. Luther was not the first, sir.

Also, I disagree with alot of Luther's theology, but I do appreciate what he did.

And disciple, just a point for you to consider. Those are all very good and well scriptures, but what do you do with this verse?

"I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Abide in Me and I in you. As a branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I Am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned." - John 15:1-6 NASB

Jesus is speaking directly to His disciples who are already “in Him”. They are “clean” [pruned]. Their present status is not in question. They are branches attached to the true vine [verse 5]. It is very important to understand that Jesus is speaking to saved individuals. They have life because they are attached to the source of life. Jesus is not talking about how one comes to be in Him [get saved]. He is speaking of the importance of abiding in Him. Young’s Literal Translation renders “abide” as “remain”. It can also be understood as “continue”. The branches in the true vine must remain in Him in order to continue to enjoy the life that flows from Him. No one can have life outside of Christ. The believer remains in Christ through faith and will continue to produce the fruits of faith and life for as long a he or she remains in Christ. When a branch ceases to remain (through faith), as indicated by fruitlessness, it is cut off. Here is a vivid and concise picture of the nature of apostasy. The apostate is not someone who was never in the vine, but someone who did not remain in the vine. Only true believers can be said to have genuinely been in the vine. No unbeliever can be said to be “in Christ”.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by Leslie

And disciple, just a point for you to consider. Those are all very good and well scriptures, but what do you do with this verse?

"I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Abide in Me and I in you. As a branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I Am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned." - John 15:1-6 NASB

Jesus is speaking directly to His disciples who are already “in Him”. They are “clean” [pruned]. Their present status is not in question. They are branches attached to the true vine [verse 5]. It is very important to understand that Jesus is speaking to saved individuals. They have life because they are attached to the source of life. Jesus is not talking about how one comes to be in Him [get saved]. He is speaking of the importance of abiding in Him. Young’s Literal Translation renders “abide” as “remain”. It can also be understood as “continue”. The branches in the true vine must remain in Him in order to continue to enjoy the life that flows from Him. No one can have life outside of Christ. The believer remains in Christ through faith and will continue to produce the fruits of faith and life for as long a he or she remains in Christ. When a branch ceases to remain (through faith), as indicated by fruitlessness, it is cut off. Here is a vivid and concise picture of the nature of apostasy. The apostate is not someone who was never in the vine, but someone who did not remain in the vine. Only true believers can be said to have genuinely been in the vine. No unbeliever can be said to be “in Christ”.

Hi Leslie,
The salvation of the sinner is not the subject here but the path of the disciple. Of course we are all responsable to obey Christ and remain in Him, but this can only be done with grace. The following is taken from a commentary by Vernon MaGee and I agree with this interpretation.

"Everyone He is speaking to here is a believer. The prophets spoke of the nation Israel as the vine—Psalm 80:8-9; Isaiah 5:1-7; Jeremiah 2:21; Hosea 10:1. It was a degenerate vine, and Jesus now presents Himself as the genuine vine. Salvation is not by being in Isreael (or being in a church), but being in Christ. A grapevine will never break at the place where the branch goes into the vine. "Abide" (verse 4) means constant communion with Christ—isn't that what a branch is doing in the vine? "Fruit" (verse 5) is produced by the Holy Spirit in such a life (Galatians 5:22-23). The fruit of soul-winning is a by-product. The fire in verse 6 is not hell, but being taken away from the place of fruitbearing (cf. 1 Corinthians 3:11-15)."

[Trinity]

Originally Posted by Leslie

Saint Jerome, the translator of the Latin Vulgate and one of the few Church Fathers that could read and write both Hebrew and Greek did not accept the Apocrypha as inspired. He did consider them to be profitable to be read in the churches for edification as they do contain alot of good wisdom. but that no doctrine should be made from them.

He's just one example of some of the fathers who did not accept it.

Hello Leslie,

Perhaps you do not know this, but books that we have presently in our New Testament were also contested by the early Church. In the Eastern side and also in the Western side of the Roman Empire, churches had many distinctive canons. There was much debate about other books including Hebrews, Jude, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, and Revelation. Some churches accepted the Epistle of Barnabas and the Shepherd of Hermas as Scripture. Also, the Septuangint was the version adopted by the Apostles and this version had included the Deuterocanonical books. Almost all the biblical quotes or references in the New Testament are from the Septuangint.

Furthermore, the Essenes people or the people from the Qumran community, also had those books in their libraries. In brief, those books were present in the Church until the arrival of Luther.

You are correct when you said that St. Jerome (also, Gregory of Nazianzus and Epiphanius) favored the list of the Hebrew Bible and that he did not accept all the Deuterocanonical books, as canonical. However, Ambrose and Augustine disagreed with him. Anyway, the canon was not decided according to the opinion of one man but with councils. That was the same thing with the dogma of the Trinity.

Keep also in mind that the Jews had no canon in Jesus time. Jews are not a authority for the Christians to decide which book is canonical. Yes they rejected the Deuterocanonical books at the end of the first century of the christian era, but they also rejected the Gospels and the Pauline Epistles.

In conclusion, Jerome was not the only polyglot and some Fathers of the Church also quoted the Deuterocanonical books (ex. Polycarp of Smyrna,Clement of Rome, Irenaeus, Hippolytus, Cyprian of Carthage, Augustine, etc). Ultimately, Jerome recognized that the Church alone had the authority to determine the canon.

"We are obliged to yield many things to the papists that they possess the Word of God which we received from them, otherwise we should have known nothing at all about it."

Martin Luther
Commentary on St. John
Chapter 16th

Trinity

[Trinity]

Hello Jean,

Originally Posted by jean

Hello trinity,
I've been wondering about 'Purgatory'? I saw this p***age in 1Cor.3:15. I thought this may possibly fit the discription of Purgatory? What do you think?

What we call good works or even bad works is often synonymous of a virtuous life or a sinful life. It is obvious that in this p***age of 1Cor.3:15 our life will p*** through a complete ***essment. Not only the good moments but also the worst moments. The worst moments will be more painful because of our delusion about ourselves and about our achievements. All our intimate lies will be revealed and enlightened by the LIGHT of God, until we acknowledge that there was a lot of selfishness and egotism in our very inner motivations. Everyone knows that we can only purify gold or silver through the fire.

1 Peter 2:12 Be careful how you live among your unbelieving neighbors. Even if they accuse you of doing wrong, they will see your honorable behavior, and they will believe and give honor to God when he comes to judge the world.

People in Purgatory will escape destruction and they will not go into hell. However, after their dead, they cannot escape the purification. The problem with this doctrine is more about the dramatization throughout the centuries by the believers, than the reasonable comprehension of the doctrine.

"A modern tends to see purgatory through the eyes of Dante, so seen, the doctrine is profoundly religious. That purification must, in its own nature, be painful, we hardly dare to dispute."

C.S, Lewis
English Literature in the
Sixteenth Century, blc.
11.1.1, para 8, p.163

"I believe in Purgatory. . . . The treatment given will be the one required, whether it hurts little or much.My favourite image on this matter comes from the dentist’s chair. I hope that when the tooth of life is drawn and I am ‘coming round’,’ a voice will say, ‘Rinse your mouth out with this.’ This will be Purgatory. The rinsing may take longer than I can now imagine. The taste of this may be more fiery and astringent than my present sensibility could endure. But . . . it will [not] be disgusting and unhallowed."

C.S. Lewis
Letters to Malcolm:
Chiefly on Prayer,
chap. 20, para. 7-10,
pp. 108-109

Trinity

[tealblue]

Originally Posted by disciple

Hi TB,
As Christians we need to consider what Jesus said as opposed to what we tend to believe or feel is true based on religious teaching or human logic.



Here is what Jesus said in John 3:3,"Jesus answered and said to him, “Most ***uredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Are you disagreeing with this?

How many decisions does one need to make to be saved? Jesus said in John 5:24 "Most ***uredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has p***ed from death into life."
So what is an x christian, some one who has p***ed from death to life and has p***ed back from life to death? Jesus said we must be born again so it is apparent that some people are born again, so how would you know if you were dead again, one sin, ten sins, missing church 3 weeks in a row?
The scriptures tells us Christ is in us, so what is His criteria for leaving us?
Even when we are born again we still must deal with a sinful nature but Christ is our Mediator, when we are saved we belong to Him, He promised He would not leave us or forsake us. I did not see any "unless" after this promise.

I don't disagree that one must be born again only what being born again is. No early church father believed being born again was anything but water baptism. The whole chapter is about water baptism nothing else.

[Bob Carabbio]

Sure - The Maccabees apparently had incorporated it into their belief package. But it's STILL nothing BUT a pagan concept. The Jews had become as functionally pagan as any of the nations around 'em LONG before Jesus' time. Read through Kings and Chronicles sometime - it's all there - a constant spiritual death spiral with a few spiritual bright spots scattered here and there.

[Bob Carabbio]

ALL sins are "mortal" unless they're removed by the Blood of Christ. "Venial/Mortal" is nothing more that ANOTHER pagan infusion in to the visible church.

[tealblue]

Originally Posted by Bob Carabbio

ALL sins are "mortal" unless they're removed by the Blood of Christ. "Venial/Mortal" is nothing more that ANOTHER pagan infusion in to the visible church.

1 john 5 17,18

If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray.
17
All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.

This text shows a difference bewteen sin that causes death(mortal) and sin that doesn't(venial)

We sin everyday. So why do christians in general will say somebody who doesn't show the fruits of salvation isn't saved? if you see your brother commiting adultry you will worry about his salvation. Why if a sin as a sin. whats the differnece between having a brief bad thought towards someone and running him over with your car. Lurther believed you could murder many times a day and be saved.

[Leslie]

Originally Posted by tealblue

1 john 5 17,18

If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray.
17
All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.

This text shows a difference bewteen sin that causes death(mortal) and sin that doesn't(venial)

We sin everyday. So why do christians in general will say somebody who doesn't show the fruits of salvation isn't saved? if you see your brother commiting adultry you will worry about his salvation. Why if a sin as a sin. whats the differnece between having a brief bad thought towards someone and running him over with your car. Lurther believed you could murder many times a day and be saved.

I don't believe that a person has to sin every day. If you sin, John says you're of the devil.

[Bob Carabbio]

That the "Jews" believed in it is one pretty good indication that it's a pagan concept since it's never taught in the Bible, but obviously believed in by 'ol Judas Maccabeus. But HEY - the Catholics rejected that book as being canonical from the get-go. It's a little disingenuous to use it as the basis for a whole doctrine, don'cha think?????

And you make the common Catholic/Mormon/JW/CofC mistake of failing to differentiate between "in order to", and "Because of".

Sure we're to be obedient - no problem there. But our obedience is "BECAUSE" of our faith. Not the "Source" of it.

[Bob Carabbio]

"All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly."

The Romanist "spin" on the Word is PURE foolishness, of course. You'd have to toss the ENTIRE BALANCE of the Bible away to believe that stupidity.

ALL SIN leads to death - PERIOD What the p***age is REALLY saying is that some sin results in death NOW - and some sins result in death LATER. Ananias and Sapphira were two whose sin was "unto death".

The Catholic Heresy about "venial sin" is based on NOTHING but pagan tradition.

[jean]

Originally Posted by Leslie

So do you believe in the old baptist saying "once saved, always saved"?

Does that mean that I could go out and sin, not repent over them, get hit by a car and then die and go to heaven?

I don't believe the 'once saved' concept. the Bible teaches we are being sanctified daily. We also sin daily. Even when we don't intend to.
I depend on the Lord's mercy and love. He is my best friend, I know He is with me at all times. the Lord is with you also. Tell Him you love Him.

jean, p2

[Leslie]

Originally Posted by jean

I don't believe the 'once saved' concept. the Bible teaches we are being sanctified daily. We also sin daily. Even when we don't intend to.
I depend on the Lord's mercy and love. He is my best friend, I know He is with me at all times. the Lord is with you also. Tell Him you love Him.

jean, p2

Well, I don't agree that we have to sin EVERY day, because I think part of Sanctification is the strength and ability to resist sin. I don't believe that it means that we no longer are capable of sinning though. I know I fail God and sin, but there are times where I lay down my head at night with a clean spirit and Conscience and just know that all is right. At other times I'm convicted of something and know that I need to repent of whatever it was.

I'm telling ya though, it's the best feeling ever when you know that you don't have to pray for forgiveness at night and you can just concentrate on praising God and worshipping him. Those are the nights that I sleep the best on.

[GateKeeper]

Originally Posted by tealblue

Saint Paul didn't think so.

1 cor 4:4 I am not conscious of anything against me, but I do not thereby stand acquitted; the one who judges me is the Lord.
5
Therefore, do not make any judgment before the appointed time, until the Lord comes, for he will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will manifest the motives of our hearts, and then everyone will receive praise from God.

1 cor 9:27 No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified

Not only did paul not think he was ***ured of salvation but he also thought that he could lose it.

Rom 11:22 See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.

Paul also warn us of us too being cut off

Heb 10:26 If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins
27
but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.

Again we are warned that deliberate sin results in us being cut off.

He who endure till the end will be saved Matt 24

I know there is alot of scripture that says no one will take us out of Gods hands. I would say to that aslong as we remain in the eternal sonship of christ thats true but not if we turn away in sin.

Faith, hope, and love are the building blocks for peace, and serenity. This is the mark God has set for us. It is when we can claim this condition that we are 'truly' saved. It starts in this life, but it does not happen over night. A great deal of change, and growth must first take place within us. We must be willing to allow God to create His vessels. This is true salvation, and something few are ever developed into."

As for eternal life, I believe what Christ accomplished extends beyond our religious ideologies, and our personal beliefs (He is our salvation - None come to the father but through Him). I don't think it necessary to believe in the man Jesus however, but rather to have an indwelling of the Spirit/light/Word that He manifest....

We can attain the kingdom right here on earth [At least in part]. After death, I think we are granted access to the fullness of the kingdom, which [is] the unknown. It starts here with us, and within us. I was just thinking last night as I was drifting off to sleep - that the more each individual attains degree's of the "Kingdom condition" a little better does the world get.

It starts with us, right here on earth - Like a snowball, as each individual attains a Kingdom mindest, (Seek ye first the Kingdom of God) God's kingdom on earth increases. One day, I believe that the earth will be filled with God's children - Those who live and die for His purpose. I always want to go back to the Lords prayer - It is a beautiful prayer and it is quite telling of what is to come to p*** [imo]

"Our Father which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, they will be done on earth as it is is heaven"

GK

[sayso]

Originally Posted by GateKeeper

As for eternal life, I believe what Christ accomplished extends beyond our religious ideologies, and our personal beliefs (He is our salvation - None come to the father but through Him). I don't think it necessary to believe in the man Jesus however, but rather to have an indwelling of the Spirit/light/Word that He manifest....

John 17

1 WHEN JESUS had spoken these things, He lifted up His eyes to heaven and said, Father, the hour has come. Glorify and exalt and honor and magnify Your Son, so that Your Son may glorify and extol and honor and magnify You.

2 [Just as] You have granted Him power and authority over all flesh (all humankind), [now glorify Him] so that He may give eternal life to all whom You have given Him.


3 And this is eternal life: [it means] to know (to perceive, recognize, become acquainted with, and understand) You, the only true and real God, and [likewise] to know Him, Jesus [as the] Christ (the Anointed One, the Messiah), Whom You have sent.


It isn't anyone's ideology. It is what Jesus taught. We can no more accept Jesus as our teacher while denying His message than our president could deny the message of Rev. Jeremiah Wright while still accepting him as his teacher. That is why he denounced the Rev. Wright. So that he could gain people's favor and thus win the election.

Originally Posted by GateKeeper

We can attain the kingdom right here on earth [At least in part]. After death, I think we are granted access to the fullness of the kingdom, which [is] the unknown. It starts here with us, and within us. I was just thinking last night as I was drifting off to sleep - that the more each individual attains degree's of the "Kingdom condition" a little better does the world get.

It starts with us, right here on earth - Like a snowball, as each individual attains a Kingdom mindest, (Seek ye first the Kingdom of God) God's kingdom on earth increases. One day, I believe that the earth will be filled with God's children - Those who live and die for His purpose. I always want to go back to the Lords prayer - It is a beautiful prayer and it is quite telling of what is to come to p*** [imo]

"Our Father which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, they will be done on earth as it is is heaven"

GK

• 2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will p*** away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
• Revelation 21:1
  Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth p***ed away, and there is no longer any sea.

Seems to me that it would be a waste of time trying to regenerate this world and remake it into God's Kingdom since God/Jesus said it is p***ing away and that it and it's works will be burned up. Then there will be a "new" earth.

Our purpose is not to build His Kingdom right here on earth.

Our purpose is to know God and the One He sent.
This is the second part of our purpose.


Matthew 28

19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."





Am I ***ured of my salvation?



Romans 8



10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.


11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.


16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.


18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.





38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,


39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.



You betcha!

[GateKeeper]

Originally Posted by sayso

John 17

1 WHEN JESUS had spoken these things, He lifted up His eyes to heaven and said, Father, the hour has come. Glorify and exalt and honor and magnify Your Son, so that Your Son may glorify and extol and honor and magnify You.

2 [Just as] You have granted Him power and authority over all flesh (all humankind), [now glorify Him] so that He may give eternal life to all whom You have given Him.


3 And this is eternal life: [it means] to know (to perceive, recognize, become acquainted with, and understand) You, the only true and real God, and [likewise] to know Him, Jesus [as the] Christ (the Anointed One, the Messiah), Whom You have sent.


It isn't anyone's ideology. It is what Jesus taught. We can no more accept Jesus as our teacher while denying His message than our president could deny the message of Rev. Jeremiah Wright while still accepting him as his teacher. That is why he denounced the Rev. Wright. So that he could gain people's favor and thus win the election.

I'm quite confident that what Jesus accomplished on the cross extends beyond our mental concepts of Him. He resides in the heart of man. We know him the very same way we know G-d. Christ's words were not His own, but the fathers who dwelt in Him. G-d is Love (1 John 4) We know G-d, and His son by knowing Him as such, and loving as we have been commanded Christ was/is G-ds love personified

• 2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will p*** away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
• Revelation 21:1
  Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth p***ed away, and there is no longer any sea.

Seems to me that it would be a waste of time trying to regenerate this world and remake it into God's Kingdom since God/Jesus said it is p***ing away and that it and it's works will be burned up. Then there will be a "new" earth.

Seems to me that heaven will p*** away also. The new heaven and new earth describes a restored Eden/paradise/earth. Why would you feel it a waste of time to help others realize the 'kingdom within themselves when this is what we are called to do?

Our purpose is not to build His Kingdom right here on earth.

Our purpose is to know God and the One He sent.
This is the second part of our purpose.

Seek ye first the kingdom of G-d.

Matthew 28

19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

What is a disciple? What is the good news/gospel. My belief is that a disciple is one who has been disciplined to live according to G-ds will. I also believe that we are to teach and help others realize the kingdom of G-d within themselves, which is the good news of the Gospel. (True Salvation)

Am I ***ured of my salvation?



Romans 8

10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.

38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,

39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

You betcha!

I would hope for no less for any whom live to serve our Lord....

GK