A "what if" question for critics.

[Billyray]

Being drawn means that God is making us aware of Him (in various ways), as I mentioned in one of my other posts. We may..or may not..respond. What does it mean to you?
To "drag" or "haul in".

Let's look at the same exact word and how it is used in a couple of other verses in the NT.



ESV

Jhn 21:6 He said to them, “Cast the net on the right side of the boat, and you will find some.” So they cast it, and now they were not able to haul it in, because of the quan***y of fish.

Jhn 21:1 So Simon Peter went aboard and hauled the net ashore, full of large fish, 153 of them. And although there were so many, the net was not torn.

Act 16:19 But when her owners saw that their hope of gain was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace before the rulers.

Act 21:30 Then all the city was stirred up, and the people ran together. They seized Paul and dragged him out of the temple, and at once the gates were shut.

Jas 2:6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Are not the rich the ones who oppress you, and the ones who drag you into court?

[alanmolstad]

in our context i would say that the calling is never louder that that still small voice......

overlooked like scattered seeds in the wind to some....

yet enough to bring tears in others........thats free will for ya

[Libby]

To "drag" or "haul in".

Let's look at the same exact word and how it is used in a couple of other verses in the NT.

I don't think those examples have the same meaning.

"To draw" can also mean "to attract"....and that is the kind of drawing I believe God is doing.

[Libby]

in our context i would say that the calling is never louder that that still small voice......

overlooked like scattered seeds in the wind to some....

yet enough to bring tears in others........thats free will for ya

The still, small voice...yes...

[alanmolstad]

The still, small voice...yes...


while I would love to take credit for the wording.......turns out it like every other thing I post here.....is from the bible

[Libby]

while I would love to take credit for the wording.......turns out it like every other thing I post here.....is from the bible

Yes, I know! :)

1 Kings 19

11 The Lord said, “Go out and stand on the mountain in the presence of the Lord, for the Lord is about to p*** by.”

11 Then a great and powerful wind tore the mountains apart and shattered the rocks before the Lord, but the Lord was not in the wind.

After the wind there was an earthquake, but the Lord was not in the earthquake.

12 After the earthquake came a fire, but the Lord was not in the fire. And after the fire came a gentle whisper.

13 When Elijah heard it, he pulled his cloak over his face and went out and stood at the mouth of the cave.

Then a voice said to him, “What are you doing here, Elijah?”

[alanmolstad]

yes!.....

so many of us pointless bicker over the "calling" or the fact that God "draws" all of us without bothering to stop and ask...."What is that sound like?"...

Its not a push....its not a bump....its not even a poke...

It's the most gentle of whispers.

[Billyray]

I don't think those examples have the same meaning.

Of course you don't because it doesn't go along with your preconceived ideas. But that is how the Greek word is used in other sentences in the NT. And let's see how it is used in the verse that we are discussing.

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

In this verse those who are drawn are raised.

[Billyray]

This is an excellent topic to discuss but we have to take it step by step in order to understand each other's position. Let's start with the following.

God has given us commandments to follow and we all have a choice to obey or disobey His commandments. Agree or disagree?
Bump for Libby.

[James Banta]

[QUOTE=James Banta;155184]

No, that is the Godhead. Christ still submitted to the will of the Father. Christ is still the Son of God. Christ still was resurrected, and has a body. Christ is still the express image of the Father. Christ called His Father, our Father and His God our God. The Father spoke of His Son of whom He was well pleased. The concept of the trinity denies those distinctions.

Really? There are no distinction of Father, Son. and Holy Spirit in the doctrine of the Trinity? I guess you are so unlearned that you don't understand the what the doctrine teaches.. There you will find three distinct and individual Persons. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit each a different personality yet one and the same God..After all it is impossible for there to be one God without *******izing the scripture to change the meaning from what we have preserved by many different scribes as to what the Holy Spirit gave them.. Moses recorded that The Lord our God in one Lord. Isaiah related that no God other than the one true God was ever formed nor will one ever be formed. Jesus agreed with Moses that God is one Lord.. The along comes Joseph Smith and he say NO, these records of Gods word are all wrong and have been changed by evil and corrupt men.. They left out the phrase "In purpose".. Tell us all just what gain was there for evil men to remove that statement? Who gained by changing the nature of God from what is recorded today from that which Smith insisted was the original? Let me help you. There was nothing to be gained and no one did.. Smith changed the nature of God far beyond that. Smith changed God from the PURE Spirit Being the Church had worshiped for well over a millennium and a half to being a physical, tangible, finite, and worse a sexual being.

Smith said that God has a body of flesh and bone as tangible as man's. Jesus said that God is Spirit, and that a Spirit has no body of flesh and bone.. By the Psalmist the Holy Spirit made it clear that God has been GOD from everlasting to Everlasting. But Smith said that he woud tell us ho God became God. Tell me how does a Being that has always been God become God? Again the Holy Spirit through the prophet Isaiah tells us that God is God and beside Him there is no Savior. But the prophets of mormonism have taught that "If we should take a million of worlds like this and number their particles, we should find that there are more Gods than there are particles of matter in those worlds".. Your doctrines, what has been taught by LDS prophets and seers, is not the doctrines we find in the Bible..

Not understanding the Trinity, you ***ign it to modelism. Believing that the Trinity believes that there is one person who is God that revels Himself i three different modes.. Can't you see the difference in believing that three separate Person are the one true God and there is one Person who in three different ways reveals himself to the world.. It is the exact opposite in it's meaning.. I don't expect you to believe either doctrine, but I wonder, can you understand the difference? IHS jim

[James Banta]

Fine do so.. We don't believe the creeds, ANY OF THEM, are scripture.. That isn't what mormonism believes about their creed. It is included in LDS.org in their list of scriptures. In that list of 13 articles, a person could see that, the mormons deny the deity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit saying that only the Father is God while Jesus is only His Son and that the Holy Ghost is just there.. Since that is your creed that must be your beliefs.. I can agree with the Nicene creed because it is supported by the Bible.. The problem for you in that your creed can't be so supported, not completely.. So show us were the Nicene creed is outside the teaching of the Bible and we will continue to show you how mormonism in all it's unique beliefs is not just outside the teaching of the Bible but flat apposes those teachings.. IHS jim

[TrueBlue?]

How can you go on and on about free will to choose Christ when you admit that man can't choose Christ on their own?

Like a parent calling there child in from outside for dinner. The parent calls out the name of the child, does that mean that the child has no choice but to answer or to come? No, the free will still exists in that child to choose, will I answer the call to come home, or will I ignore it and play with my friends a little longer.

[Libby]

Like a parent calling there child in from outside for dinner. The parent calls out the name of the child, does that mean that the child has no choice but to answer or to come? No, the free will still exists in that child to choose, will I answer the call to come home, or will I ignore it and play with my friends a little longer.

Very good ****ogy, TrueBlue.

[Billyray]

Like a parent calling there child in from outside for dinner. The parent calls out the name of the child, does that mean that the child has no choice but to answer or to come? No, the free will still exists in that child to choose, will I answer the call to come home, or will I ignore it and play with my friends a little longer.
I am not sure how this relates to the ongoing conversation thus far but it you would like to join that would be great. So here is your question.

Do you believe that a person can come to Christ without first being drawn by the Father?

[Libby]

I am not sure how this relates to the ongoing conversation thus far but it you would like to join that would be great.

It relates perfectly to the conversation I've been trying to have. God draws and we respond..or we don't.

[Billyray]

It relates perfectly to the conversation I've been trying to have. God draws and we respond..or we don't.
He or she didn't address the issue that has been ongoing over the last several pages of whether or not man has the ability to come to Christ prior to being drawn.

Do you believe that a person can come to Christ without first being drawn by the Father?

[Billyray]

God draws and we respond..or we don't.
BTW where does it say that the Father draws ALL to Christ? It certainly doesn't say it in John 6, which is the p***age that we were discussing. Here is the verse

John 6: 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

In this verse those who are drawn are raised. And if you try and run to John 12 it doesn't say that the Father draws ALL to Christ.

[alanmolstad]

john12:32


................

[Billyray]

john12:32

I ***ume you mean John 12:32.

John 12:32 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Where in this verse does it say that the Father draws ALL people to Christ?

Can you show me what verse you guys are using to support your position that the Father draws ALL people to Christ?

[alanmolstad]

heres the deal.........

when god put christ on the cross......it was for the whole world......



All of us........

[alanmolstad]

so this means that all people......all people that have ever lived or will ever live.........thats what i take the word "all" to mean there.








shame on people that think differently

[Billyray]

so this means that all people......all people that have ever lived or will ever live.........thats what i take the word "all" to mean there.
John 12:32 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”



This is Christ speaking NOT the Father. So why do you and others keep saying that the Father will draw ALL men to Christ?

[alanmolstad]

This is Christ speaking NOT the Father. So why do you and others keep saying that the Father will draw ALL men to Christ?

So the son draws all men.......but in your thinking the son and the father are going off on their own ?

[alanmolstad]

This is Christ speaking NOT the Father. ?

Shame on the Son for drawing all men...........

[alanmolstad]

This is Christ speaking NOT the Father. So why do you and others keep saying that the Father will draw ALL men to Christ?

Jesus did Nothing but what he was given to do by the Father.........

your ideas are crazy.......

[alanmolstad]

so.......I got my new laptop running!

This means I can now go on to posting and stuff.....no more phone posts!

[TrueBlue?]

I am not sure how this relates to the ongoing conversation thus far but it you would like to join that would be great. So here is your question.

Do you believe that a person can come to Christ without first being drawn by the Father?

I have shown how one can be called or drawn yet have the free will to refuse to answer the drawing. What you are proposing Billyray is that when the Father draws you seem to loose all control of the situation and no matter what it is you may want you are forced to choose Christ. I can't accept that. That is tantamount to not accepting responsibility for ones own actions. "I'm sorry officer, but the money in the vault drew me to it. I had no choice to refuse it.", or " I'm sorry honey, but the other woman was so attractive that I was drawn to her, not my fault, had no choice in the matter."

Just because the Fathers draws us or in other words, calls our name, tries to help situations in life that make it easier for us to acknowledge Him, does not mean he forces us to love Him. To be forced to love someone is tantamount to rape. Our Father will not imprison us and then rape us.

[TrueBlue?]

I ***ume you mean John 12:32.

John 12:32 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Where in this verse does it say that the Father draws ALL people to Christ?

Can you show me what verse you guys are using to support your position that the Father draws ALL people to Christ?

John 12:32 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Billyray, 3 questions

1. Who is speaking here?
2. Who is the all the person is speaking about?
3. Who is the myself?

[TrueBlue?]

This is Christ speaking NOT the Father. So why do you and others keep saying that the Father will draw ALL men to Christ?

What does this have do to with free will. If Christ does it, isn't it the same as the Father, are they not independent of each other, being the same being anyhow. What does it matter who does the drawing, if you have one you have the other one.

[James Banta]

What does this have do to with free will. If Christ does it, isn't it the same as the Father, are they not independent of each other, being the same being anyhow. What does it matter who does the drawing, if you have one you have the other one.

That would depend on what you call "independent".. yes they are one God but they also differentiate in their Person..The Father does draw those He wills to the Son. He saves then and holds them for Himself always. No ONE can take then from Him.. NO ONE.. That would include the person who He saved.. IHS jim

[TrueBlue?]

That would depend on what you call "independent".. yes they are one God but they also differentiate in their Person..The Father does draw those He wills to the Son. He saves then and holds them for Himself always. No ONE can take then from Him.. NO ONE.. That would include the person who He saved.. IHS jim

I agree with what you state here James, but with one exception, although no else, be it friends, family, or even the devil himself cannot steal you away from Christ, you can make the decision to leave Christ. What you state here is that Christ lures you in then once in He shuts the door throws away the key. The is the same as being imprisoned. Christ did not come to put people in prison, but to free them from prison.

[RealFakeHair]

I agree with what you state here James, but with one exception, although no else, be it friends, family, or even the devil himself cannot steal you away from Christ, you can make the decision to leave Christ. What you state here is that Christ lures you in then once in He shuts the door throws away the key. The is the same as being imprisoned. Christ did not come to put people in prison, but to free them from prison.

You forgot Joseph Smith jr. His imaginary mind mormon god has taken millions from Christ. However while there is time......

[TrueBlue?]

You forgot Joseph Smith jr. His imaginary mind mormon god has taken millions from Christ. However while there is time......

Well in that case that can only happen when God stops putting me under a delusion. I don't know Christ because God blocks me from knowing Christ, and because God blocks me from Christ, He will send me to hell, because He blocked me. Ahhh. Perfect Justice.

[RealFakeHair]

Well in that case that can only happen when God stops putting me under a delusion. I don't know Christ because God blocks me from knowing Christ, and because God blocks me from Christ, He will send me to hell, because He blocked me. Ahhh. Perfect Justice.

Sometimes I blame God too. However IMHO God of the Holy Bible gives most of us a coming to Jesus moment, I hope your hasn't past you by.

[TrueBlue?]

Sometimes I blame God too. However IMHO God of the Holy Bible gives most of us a coming to Jesus moment, I hope your hasn't past you by.

How would I know, being under the delusion God has placed on me. If God placed me under it, who should I blame, seeing as I can't do nothing because delusion has me chained to ignorance.

And by Jesus moment, does that mean one day the delusion will be lifted and I will be allowed to understand the Gospel and Christ? Is it at this point that I can make a choice that may affect my salvation?

[James Banta]

How would I know, being under the delusion God has placed on me. If God placed me under it, who should I blame, seeing as I can't do nothing because delusion has me chained to ignorance.

And by Jesus moment, does that mean one day the delusion will be lifted and I will be allowed to understand the Gospel and Christ? Is it at this point that I can make a choice that may affect my salvation?

Sounds like you understand the power of God to bring you to Jesus right now.. have you responded and allowed Jesus to take your sin and give you His righteousness, OR have you set out to make yourself worthy of His Kingdom? Are you trusting your baptism, your church membership, your priesthoods, and your marriage for salvation in God's highest heaven? That sounds like a strong delusion to induce you to believe the lies mormonism presents as truth.. But then your understanding of grace is right there in your mind.. Which do you choose? IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

How would I know, being under the delusion God has placed on me. If God placed me under it, who should I blame, seeing as I can't do nothing because delusion has me chained to ignorance.

And by Jesus moment, does that mean one day the delusion will be lifted and I will be allowed to understand the Gospel and Christ? Is it at this point that I can make a choice that may affect my salvation?
Everyone is different, but I have found over the years when a TBM comes to know the Salvation Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible most have told me it is like a heavy burden has been lifted of their shoulders. I believe when you have your Come to Jesus of the Holy Bible moment you too will know the race has already been won. Jesus of the Holy Bible did the Word, now enjoy His reward.

[Billyray]

John 12:32 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Billyray, 3 questions

1. Who is speaking here?
2. Who is the all the person is speaking about?
3. Who is the myself?
1. Christ

2. All those given to Christ by the Father (the elect)
John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

3. Christ


Now your turn. Can you show me where it says that the Father draws ALL men to Christ?

[Billyray]

What does this have do to with free will.
John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Can a person come to Christ on his own without being drawn by the Father?

[Billyray]

John 6
36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

TrueBlue tell me what these verses mean to you.

[Billyray]

If Christ does it, isn't it the same as the Father, are they not independent of each other, being the same being anyhow.
Can you explain what you meant by this statement since it doesn't make a lot of sense.

[TrueBlue?]

1. Christ

2. All those given to Christ by the Father (the elect)
John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

3. Christ


Now your turn. Can you show me where it says that the Father draws ALL men to Christ?

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1Ti 2:4 KJV) According to this verse it seems that God wants all men to be saved, there fore draws all near, if they would listen.

[TrueBlue?]

John 6
36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

TrueBlue tell me what these verses mean to you.
What they mean to me is that those who come to Christ, He will never forsake or abandon.

[TrueBlue?]

Can you explain what you meant by this statement since it doesn't make a lot of sense.

There is only one God. Whatever the Father does, so also does Christ, whatever Christ does, so also the Father.

[alanmolstad]

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse

This is the way God draws us to Himself...
this goes on every day in each person's life.....day after day...hour after hour....moment after moment....an unending calling by God to men for men to come to him...

[alanmolstad]

so the calling of God to draw close to him goes out to all men....we each receive this,

all of us are receiving this same drawing action by God...

They who respond to this light from heaven will find that they will see brighter light as they draw closer to the God of the Bible.

All of the people that come to Christ go though this...
We are drawn, and we respond, and we find salvation in the cross.


But what does this mean to be >drawn?
The best example I think we can all understand is that moment you walking and you see something that catches your eye....and you get interested, and so you stop and walk over to whatever it is.

are we saved when we are drawn by God?....no
are we changed?....no
but we do get our interest peeked.

[Billyray]

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1Ti 2:4 KJV) According to this verse it seems that God wants all men to be saved, there fore draws all near, if they would listen.
You didn't answer my question. Can you show me where it says that the Father draws ALL men to Christ?

[Billyray]

What they mean to me is that those who come to Christ, He will never forsake or abandon.
John 6
36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

1. And who are those who come to Christ according to verse 37
2. Can you tie verses 36 and 37 together and give me the meaning of the two?

[Billyray]

There is only one God. Whatever the Father does, so also does Christ, whatever Christ does, so also the Father.
The Son died on the cross not the Father. So your statement still doesn't make sense from the Christian point of view (nor from the lds point of view).

[Libby]

The Son died on the cross not the Father. So your statement still doesn't make sense from the Christian point of view (nor from the lds point of view).

Billy, you are convoluting the issue. It doesn't matter who is doing the drawing, if you truly believe there is only ONE God. Isn't that one of the big issues for critics of Mormonism??

[James Banta]

Billy, you are convoluting the issue. It doesn't matter who is doing the drawing, if you truly believe there is only ONE God. Isn't that one of the big issues for critics of Mormonism??

We don't teach that the Father is the same person as the Son.. The person of the Son was crucified.. Was he alone in His divinity as the spikes were driven through His flesh.. No, the Father and the Holy Spirit were there experiencing every second of His atonement through the shedding of His blood and sacrificial death. Still it was the Person of the Son that made the sacrifice.. Are you gone so far that your spirit can't understand these things?

BTW mormon polytheism is the only sin that is so terrible that is so terrible as to guide every soul they cause to believe in Smith to hell.. That is the most major sin of mormonism.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Billy, you are convoluting the issue. It doesn't matter who is doing the drawing, if you truly believe there is only ONE God.
I am not convoluting the issue rather I am pointing out that TrueBlue doesn't seem to have a clue about the Christian Trinity. Here is his or her post again. Let's take a look at it.

There is only one God. Whatever the Father does, so also does Christ, whatever Christ does, so also the Father.
Is what TrueBlue said correct? Jesus died on the cross did the Father die on the cross?

[alanmolstad]

.. Are you gone so far that your spirit can't understand these things?


If you might back-up and see the context of what Libby was talking about, you might also see she was commenting on the fact that Billy seems to be suggesting the weird idea that while the Son can be said to be drawing all men to himself, that is somehow different than the Father drawing all men to himself...

Billy is clearly suggesting that the Son is doing some drawing of people that the Father does not seem to want to draw, ?????

[alanmolstad]

I am not convoluting the issue rather I am pointing out that TrueBlue doesn't seem to have a clue about the Christian Trinity. Here is his or her post again. Let's take a look at it.

Is what TrueBlue said correct? Jesus died on the cross did the Father die on the cross?Billy this is a very silly thing for you to say ...

I believe it is YOU who is parting ways with the traditional Christian teachings on the trinity here...
If Christ did something while he was on the earth, it was only via the Father that it was done....

So if Christ says that he is drawing all men to himself this is only because it is the Father that is doing the drawing...
It was the Father in Christ that was doing the drawing...

[TrueBlue?]

You didn't answer my question. Can you show me where it says that the Father draws ALL men to Christ?

Billyray do you believe that Christ wants something that the Father doesn't want?

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1Ti 2:4 KJV)

In the verse above, Christ wants all men to be saved, but according to you regardless of what Christ may want or desire, the Father wants something different. Are you telling me that there is no perfect unity between the person of Christ and the Father. Have they not been able to resolve their differences since the pleading of Christ to the Fatehr in the Garden?

[TrueBlue?]

John 6
36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

1. And who are those who come to Christ according to verse 37
2. Can you tie verses 36 and 37 together and give me the meaning of the two?

Let's not forget 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1Ti 2:4 KJV)

unless you think the divide between Father and Son is so great that they are both at odds with each other.

Tread lightly Billyray, because you are approaching an area the Mormons and Trinitarians both agree on, and that is the complete unification of will between Father and Son and carrying on this line of argument is coming close to blasphemy according to both camps.

Maybe you can explain how the drawing of the Father rids one the ability to make a choice and ignore the calling and is somehow zombie slave like fashion forced to except Christ.

[TrueBlue?]

We don't teach that the Father is the same person as the Son.. The person of the Son was crucified.. Was he alone in His divinity as the spikes were driven through His flesh.. No, the Father and the Holy Spirit were there experiencing every second of His atonement through the shedding of His blood and sacrificial death. Still it was the Person of the Son that made the sacrifice.. Are you gone so far that your spirit can't understand these things?

BTW mormon polytheism is the only sin that is so terrible that is so terrible as to guide every soul they cause to believe in Smith to hell.. That is the most major sin of mormonism.. IHS jim

Are you so gone spiritually that you would advocate the Father and Son having opposing wills?

[alanmolstad]

Are you so gone spiritually that you would advocate the Father and Son having opposing wills?

You have raised a good point.
from the posts you are responding to here it does seem clear that in order to defend Calvinism there are people on this forum that have now needed to have the Son doing some drawing of men, while acting like this does not mean the father is also doing the drawing.

This is a clear attack on the unity of the trinity.....
I know James and Billy would never do this except for the way their defense of Calvinism seems to have made this necessary.


My view is that the Trinity is a Bible teaching from God.....whereas Calvinism is just an idea a guy dreamed up on his own.
and, that the idea Billy came up with here that the Son can draw men but not the Father is just a silly argument that is easy to forget ....






Here is what Jesus thinks of the idea -

"Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.


So when Christ says that when he is lifted up and draws all men to himself, whom do we know is actually doing this work?__________

[TrueBlue?]

You have raised a good point.
from the posts you are responding to here it does seem clear that in order to defend Calvinism there are people on this forum that have now needed to have the Son doing some drawing of men, while acting like this does not mean the father is also doing the drawing.

This is a clear attack on the unity of the trinity.....
I know James and Billy would never do this except for the way their defense of Calvinism seems to have made this necessary.


My view is that the Trinity is a Bible teaching from God.....whereas Calvinism is just an idea a guy dreamed up on his own.
and, that the idea Billy came up with here that the Son can draw men but not the Father is just a silly argument that is easy to forget ....






Here is what Jesus thinks of the idea -

"Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.


So when Christ says that when he is lifted up and draws all men to himself, whom do we know is actually doing this work?__________

This verse also seals the truth with it on how the Son and Father operate in complete unity....

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. (Joh 5:19 KJV)

This makes it very clear that if Christ is doing it, then so is the Father.

[RealFakeHair]

Let's not forget [I][COLOR="#FF0000"]4

Tread lightly Billyray,



Tread lightly. I find that statement very interesting coming from someone who takes to word of a con-man ie, Joseph Smith jr. Over the Word of God.
Tread lightly, yes we all should.

[TrueBlue?]

Tread lightly. I find that statement very interesting coming from someone who takes to word of a con-man ie, Joseph Smith jr. Over the Word of God.
Tread lightly, yes we all should.

Don't worry, I am comfortable where I place my feet. As for others, when they are on the verge of blaspheming God even under a Mormon's standards, they are definitely in rough waters.

[James Banta]

Don't worry, I am comfortable where I place my feet. As for others, when they are on the verge of blaspheming God even under a Mormon's standards, they are definitely in rough waters.

Let me then say this.. Thank God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit for His Love and grace given to me. I praise Him for the salvation he has given to me 100% through His efforts, by His power. Cursed be the mormon god who is taught to have been a mortal on another world, who became a god through his own efforts. Who is said to have created everything spiritually before it became a physical creation.. Cursed be a god that only organizes the elements into the world we see around us instead of call them into existence by the power of His word.. Cursed be all false gods..Cursed be the message given by their false prophets.. IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

Don't worry, I am comfortable where I place my feet. As for others, when they are on the verge of blaspheming God even under a Mormon's standards, they are definitely in rough waters.

According to the Holy Bible, LDSinc. And their followers are a living a daily life of blaspheming, denying the ONE True Living God.
Again, for the record TrueBlue, how many gods are there in Joseph Smith jr. Imaginary mind religion of mormonism? If you don't know, then take a guess.

[Billyray]

Billyray do you believe that Christ wants something that the Father doesn't want?

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1Ti 2:4 KJV)

In the verse above, Christ wants all men to be saved, but according to you regardless of what Christ may want or desire, the Father wants something different. Are you telling me that there is no perfect unity between the person of Christ and the Father. Have they not been able to resolve their differences since the pleading of Christ to the Fatehr in the Garden?
So I can only ***ume from your answer above that you have no verse that says that the Father draws ALL men to Christ. Right?

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Those who are drawn by the Father are raised. If the Father draws ALL men then ALL would be raised and we both know that this is not the case.

[Billyray]

Billyray do you believe that Christ wants something that the Father doesn't want?

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1Ti 2:4 KJV)

In the verse above, Christ wants all men to be saved, but according to you regardless of what Christ may want or desire, the Father wants something different. Are you telling me that there is no perfect unity between the person of Christ and the Father.
The Father and the Son would love to see ALL men obey ALL of the commandments.

[Billyray]

Let's not forget 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1Ti 2:4 KJV)

unless you think the divide between Father and Son is so great that they are both at odds with each other.

Again you are avoiding answering my question. If you throw out sections of scripture then sure you can make the scriptures agree with any position but you won't answer my question because it disagrees with your preconceived ideas. However if you want to understand God's message to us you have to accept ALL of the Bible not bits and pieces. Here is my question for you about this section of scripture.

John 6
36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

1. And who are those who come to Christ according to verse 37
2. Can you tie verses 36 and 37 together and give me the meaning of the two?

[Billyray]

Don't worry, I am comfortable where I place my feet. As for others, when they are on the verge of blaspheming God even under a Mormon's standards, they are definitely in rough waters.

How is anyone "blaspheming God"?

You are the one who simply ignores verses that you don't like, you don't see the Christians doing that because we accept the entire Bible cover to cover. You pick the verses that on the surface support your position and flat out ignore all of the verses that completely contradict mormonism. Am I right?

John 6
36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

John 6
44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.


Can you tell me what there verses are teaching us?

[BigJulie]

Billyray do you believe that Christ wants something that the Father doesn't want?

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1Ti 2:4 KJV)

In the verse above, Christ wants all men to be saved, but according to you regardless of what Christ may want or desire, the Father wants something different. Are you telling me that there is no perfect unity between the person of Christ and the Father. Have they not been able to resolve their differences since the pleading of Christ to the Fatehr in the Garden?

TrueBlue---do you ever wonder why we come. I keep praying that those who really want to know about our beliefs and doctrines will go to the source. I suppose that those who want dirt will always find it just as the Pharisees did of Christ. If they can find fault with One who is perfect, how much more so can they find dirt on those who are not.

[alanmolstad]

TrueBlue---do you ever wonder why we come. .I was always under the impression that you were attracted to our manly physique ????


well that's the way I tell the story anyway...

[Billyray]

TrueBlue---do you ever wonder why we come. I keep praying that those who really want to know about our beliefs and doctrines will go to the source..
You certainly don't come to try and find the truth because if you did you would actually believe the Bible from cover to cover. But what we see is that you--and other lds such as TrueBlue--do is to reject large chunks of the Bible that you don't like and simply write it off as non truth. BigJ you did that with the Isaiah p***ages, the Genesis 1 p***age, and many other verses that we have given you. And TrueBlue is doing the same thing with the John 6 p***ages. And he or she will do it with any of the next verses that I will provide to show that the lds position is absolutely false. But I welcome you input on the John 6 p***ages. Or you could finish answering my question about Genesis 1 (a verse that YOU first brought up)

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. . .

Who are the "us" and "our" that made man?

[Billyray]

I suppose that those who want dirt will always find it just as the Pharisees did of Christ. If they can find fault with One who is perfect, how much more so can they find dirt on those who are not.
Because you can't accept the Bible as the word of God from cover to cover and defend your position from the Bible you have now taken the low road and made false accusations against us. Shouldn't this be a big clue that you have the wrong position?

[TrueBlue?]

According to the Holy Bible, LDSinc. And their followers are a living a daily life of blaspheming, denying the ONE True Living God.
Again, for the record TrueBlue, how many gods are there in Joseph Smith jr. Imaginary mind religion of mormonism? If you don't know, then take a guess.

I don't see what your question has to do with the fact that James and Billyray have the Father and Son at odds with each other. You can claim whatever you want about how many Gods Joseph claimed there was, but one thing for sure, Mormons have always believed in the perfect unity of the Father with the Son. Joseph Smith can't help you here, Billyray and James need to take a long look at where their beliefs lead them concerning the Trinity.

[TrueBlue?]

So I can only ***ume from your answer above that you have no verse that says that the Father draws ALL men to Christ. Right?

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Those who are drawn by the Father are raised. If the Father draws ALL men then ALL would be raised and we both know that this is not the case.

Billyray I gave you a verse where is says that Christ would have it that all men be saved, if Christ wants it then the Father wants it.

Can you show me a verse that the Father and Christ can't agree on things?

[TrueBlue?]

The Father and the Son would love to see ALL men obey ALL of the commandments.

That is not what the verse says

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1Ti 2:4 KJV)

Nothing about commandments there. Just about being saved, and coming to a knowledge of truth, sounds like a type of drawing unto to me.

Billy, you have completely annihilated that verse. Do you realize that?

[TrueBlue?]

Again you are avoiding answering my question. If you throw out sections of scripture then sure you can make the scriptures agree with any position but you won't answer my question because it disagrees with your preconceived ideas. However if you want to understand God's message to us you have to accept ALL of the Bible not bits and pieces. Here is my question for you about this section of scripture.

John 6
36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

1. And who are those who come to Christ according to verse 37
2. Can you tie verses 36 and 37 together and give me the meaning of the two?

Billy, I am not avoiding answering your question. I have answered it. In order for verse 36 & 37 to work the way you want them to you would have to set Father against Son. Jesus wills that all men are saved, and come to a knowledge, being as Him and the Father are perfectly unified then we can agree that the Father wishes the same.

[James Banta]

TrueBlue---do you ever wonder why we come. I keep praying that those who really want to know about our beliefs and doctrines will go to the source. I suppose that those who want dirt will always find it just as the Pharisees did of Christ. If they can find fault with One who is perfect, how much more so can they find dirt on those who are not.

What more source do you want us to use other than 1st the Lord our God through prayer and His word, and then LDS writings and scripture that contradicts it's self and displays false prophecy (BofM Jacob 2:24 vs D&C 132:33, D&C 124:51 vs 1 Nephi 3:7)? What more could I see than that the LDS don't trust their own History that they wrote and controlled since Joseph Smith lead their church nor do they believe their own scripture. They Invent their doctrine on the run..

What ever SEEMS right to them at the time is their doctrine.. Christian doctrine is spelled out in the full context of the Bible.. If you would like to call me a Pharisee I will allow that.. At least they looked to the scripture and in the case of Nicodemus who was a man of the Pharisees. He came to Jesus and receive the message of life directly from Him.. That is what I have done.. I have come to Jesus to learn from Him directly. He is consistent but mormonism, it is like the shifting sand, the waves of the sea.. It is always in transition even on who God is..

The BofM says that God is the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost, that they are one God.. Then along comes Smith and his "translation" of the BofA and that one God has become three gods.. Then other high raking LDS General Authorities have told us that there are more Gods in the universe than in all the particles of dust on three worlds.. Yes that is shifting sand..

The Church has worshiped the Triune God for over 2,000 years. In this there in no shifting or turning.. Mormonism can't say that because in less than the 200 years it has existed the most basic of Christin doctrine, the Nature of God, has change dramatically.. From one to 3 three, to billions on billions. So where are we to find the true doctrines of mormonism? Just say something totally outrageous, sooner or later it will be a doctrine of mormonism.. IHS jim

[TrueBlue?]

TrueBlue---do you ever wonder why we come. I keep praying that those who really want to know about our beliefs and doctrines will go to the source. I suppose that those who want dirt will always find it just as the Pharisees did of Christ. If they can find fault with One who is perfect, how much more so can they find dirt on those who are not.

Sometimes I do wonder. I take long breaks time to time. There are times when I let the spirit of contention get to me, and I have to go away and take a spiritual shower from it all, then there are those times that I have learned a great deal from the many LDS poster here.

[RealFakeHair]

Sometimes I do wonder. I take long breaks time to time. There are times when I let the spirit of contention get to me, and I have to go away and take a spiritual shower from it all, then there are those times that I have learned a great deal from the many LDS poster here.
Well as they say, A cult together, flock together, or something.

[Billyray]

Billy, I am not avoiding answering your question.
Sure you are avoiding the question. BTW if you hadn't noticed Christ is speaking in both sets of verses so I am not pitting the Father against the Son. So here it is again for you. What is Christ teaching us here?


John 6
36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

1. And who are those who come to Christ according to verse 37
2. Can you tie verses 36 and 37 together and give me the meaning of the two?

[alanmolstad]

Billy, I am not avoiding answering your question. I have answered it. In order for verse 36 & 37 to work the way you want them to you would have to set Father against Son. Jesus wills that all men are saved, and come to a knowledge, being as Him and the Father are perfectly unified then we can agree that the Father wishes the same.
you are correct.....

the Son does NOTHING on his own.....if the Son draws it is only because it is actually the Father that is drawing men....though the Son.....

[alanmolstad]

we must remember that when each of us is calleld or drawn by god that god never has to take away our free will to draw us.

when god draws us is not like anyone is being forced.

no one forced to believe....

perhaps the term "draw" gets some people mixed up?
I think a better word that means the same might be "allurement"

the meaning of that term is in more agreement with how god draws us closer to himself.

Its like a boy or girl putting on their best clothes to "interest " the other.

when god draws a ssinner the sinner is not saved....but what is of interest to the sinner is the Cross.
God draws the sinner with the Cross.


we always have free will at all times.....but in the Cross of Christ we see the sinner get interested in the path to salvation...

The sinner is drawn to christ and the cross for via the cross the sinner can find the way out of sin and death.

[Billyray]

That is not what the verse says

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1Ti 2:4 KJV)

Nothing about commandments there. Just about being saved, and coming to a knowledge of truth, sounds like a type of drawing unto to me.

Billy, you have completely annihilated that verse. Do you realize that?
1 Ti 2:4 3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

The Father and the Son desire All people to obey ALL of the commandments and be saved. But ALL people don't keep the commandments. In fact not a single person has obeyed ALL of the commandments except Christ. God doesn't find pleasure in seeing people disobey Him. But they do. BTW how do you think that this change anything else that we have spoken about i.e election?

[Billyray]

Sometimes I do wonder. I take long breaks time to time. There are times when I let the spirit of contention get to me, and I have to go away and take a spiritual shower from it all, then there are those times that I have learned a great deal from the many LDS poster here.

Why don't you and BigJ actually do something novel--and actually read the verses that we give you and accept them as written rather than ignore what they say. That is a major problem why mormons are lost. They have preconceived beliefs and they find verses that on the surface support their position and then completely ignore the vast number of verses that show that your beliefs are completely false. This is exactly what you are doing with the doctrine of predestination/election. We have just gotten started on this subject with two verses in John 6 and you have completely ignored what they say. And I know that you know what these verses are saying because your only explanation is to avoid telling me what these verses say while saying that they pit the Father against the Son. Why not be honest with me and yourself and simply tell me what these verses are saying. BTW if you throw out all of the verses in the Bible about election then sure I would agree with you that there is not such thing as election but I can't do that--but you don't to have an issue with doing this nor do you even see a problem in doing so.

[alanmolstad]

we must remember that when each of us is calleld or drawn by god that god never has to take away our free will to draw us.

when god draws us is not like anyone is being forced.

no one forced to believe....

perhaps the term "draw" gets some people mixed up?
I think a better word that means the same might be "allurement"

the meaning of that term is in more agreement with how god draws us closer to himself.

Its like a boy or girl putting on their best clothes to "interest " the other.

when god draws a ssinner the sinner is not saved....but what is of interest to the sinner is the Cross.
God draws the sinner with the Cross.


we always have free will at all times.....but in the Cross of Christ we see the sinner get interested in the path to salvation...

The sinner is drawn to christ and the cross for via the cross the sinner can find the way out of sin and death.aaaaaaaa

if I remember correctly, I think it was Luther that taught the idea that the correct understanding of the idea and context of when "God draws us to himself" its a lot like the drawing of lovers to each other.
There is an attraction.
In this case, the attraction is between the sinner and the cross.

So there is never a point where god must remove the free Will of the sinner, rather god attracts the sinner with the Bible's message of forgiveness.
So the sinner always has free will, but does find something very attractive in the forgiveness offered in the cross.
The sinner is drawn to this forgiveness as it is what the sinner seeks, to be forgiven.

[alanmolstad]

so as Christ was lifted up he drew all men to himself...both sinner and saint.
The Believers and the nonbelievers were drawn to the cross.

I take this to mean that the thing the cross brings to mankind is "forgiveness" and it is something that the heart of the sinner is looking for.

So all are called, all are drawn...But few are chosen.
The reason few are is that due to man's free will not all people respond to the offer of forgiveness given in the cross.

they that do respond will draw closer and closer to the Lord and become saved and forgiven.
and if you are in Christ you cant ever fall away from being forgiven.

[alanmolstad]

this also means that the suggestion that the father was not drawing all men to himself is silly....and with out merit.


The father was in Christ....Christ never did squat on his own.
everything that Christ did was because he saw the Father doing it......


This means that if the son said he was drawing all men to himself, it is only because the Son saw the father drawing all men to himself.

[TrueBlue?]

Just so all can see how Billyray works, as if anyone hasn't seen it. Below is what Billyray chose to quote.

Quote Originally Posted by TrueBlue? View Post
Billy, I am not avoiding answering your question.

Now here is the full quote.
Billy, I am not avoiding answering your question. I have answered it. In order for verse 36 & 37 to work the way you want them to you would have to set Father against Son. Jesus wills that all men are saved, and come to a knowledge, being as Him and the Father are perfectly unified then we can agree that the Father wishes the same.

Billyray, why do you feel the need to cut out my quote that has the my answer to you in it, then pretend as if I didn't answer you? Do you understand that is bearing false witness? Do you not see how that makes you seem like a very dishonest person when you try and minipulate something to look like one thing when it's clear that what you try and portray isn't the truth? Do you realize how insulting it is, when you do it so blatantly and it's so obvious even to the casual reader?

Sure you are avoiding the question. BTW if you hadn't noticed Christ is speaking in both sets of verses so I am not pitting the Father against the Son. So here it is again for you. What is Christ teaching us here?


John 6
36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

1. And who are those who come to Christ according to verse 37
2. Can you tie verses 36 and 37 together and give me the meaning of the two?

I have answered this Billyray. Your contention is with the scriptures, not me.

[TrueBlue?]

1 Ti 2:4 3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

The Father and the Son desire All people to obey ALL of the commandments and be saved. But ALL people don't keep the commandments. In fact not a single person has obeyed ALL of the commandments except Christ. God doesn't find pleasure in seeing people disobey Him. But they do. BTW how do you think that this change anything else that we have spoken about i.e election?

Billyray, you are wresting the scriptures and forcing things into them that are not there. Of course Christ wants all to obey commandments, but that is not what is being specifically spoken of here is it? Paul is bearing his testimony and teaching of who God is and that God wants all to be saved and to come to a knowledge of Him and what he did for us.

How does it work? Let's put it together.

John 6
36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. (Joh 6:44 KJV)

Now the question here is who does the Father draw? That is where 1 Tim 2:4 comes in. All.

[TrueBlue?]

Why don't you and BigJ actually do something novel--and actually read the verses that we give you and accept them as written rather than ignore what they say. That is a major problem why mormons are lost. They have preconceived beliefs and they find verses that on the surface support their position and then completely ignore the vast number of verses that show that your beliefs are completely false. This is exactly what you are doing with the doctrine of predestination/election. We have just gotten started on this subject with two verses in John 6 and you have completely ignored what they say. And I know that you know what these verses are saying because your only explanation is to avoid telling me what these verses say while saying that they pit the Father against the Son. Why not be honest with me and yourself and simply tell me what these verses are saying. BTW if you throw out all of the verses in the Bible about election then sure I would agree with you that there is not such thing as election but I can't do that--but you don't to have an issue with doing this nor do you even see a problem in doing so.

Your bearing false witness again and projecting. I have answered your questions with scripture that is plain to the casual reader what is being said. You are the one injecting things into scripture that is never said. 1Tim 2:4 says absolutely nothing about obeying commandments. The only thing that is being spoken of is the desire that all men be saved and all come to knowledge of Christ. Yet you somehow pull out of thin air "obey commandments" because the verse as it stands tears apart calvanist theology.

[TrueBlue?]

this also means that the suggestion that the father was not drawing all men to himself is silly....and with out merit.


The father was in Christ....Christ never did squat on his own.
everything that Christ did was because he saw the Father doing it......


This means that if the son said he was drawing all men to himself, it is only because the Son saw the father drawing all men to himself.

I fully agree with this. Scripture says so.

[Billyray]

Your bearing false witness again and projecting.
.
I am absolutely not bearing false witness rather I am telling the absolute truth. If I thought that the Bible taught that the Father draws ALL people the I would have not problem saying that the Father draws ALL people. But it doesn't. I am trying to be honest with ALL of the verses in the Bible not just some of them like you are. You and BigJ repeatedly ignore verse after verse after verse because they do not line up with your theology. And why is that? Because what you believe is false. I know because I was once LDS and I had to do the same thing as you, cherry pick verses and ignore the mul***ude of verses that testify against mormonism. The verses in John 6 clearly teach that something that you are not willing to accept. That is why you have simply ignored it and tried to give me another verse in an attempt to deflect answering a simple question.

[Billyray]

How does it work? Let's put it together.

John 6
36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

Now the question here is who does the Father draw? That is where 1 Tim 2:4 comes in. All.
Nowhere in scriptures does it say that the Father draws ALL men to Christ. But let's test your theory a little bit.

1. Does the Father draw the men in John 6:36 to Christ?

[Billyray]

The father was in Christ....Christ never did squat on his own.
everything that Christ did was because he saw the Father doing it......

Did the Father die on the cross?

When did the Son see the Father die on the cross?

[Billyray]

this also means that the suggestion that the father was not drawing all men to himself is silly....and with out merit.


The father was in Christ....Christ never did squat on his own.
everything that Christ did was because he saw the Father doing it. . .

This means that if the son said he was drawing all men to himself, it is only because the Son saw the father drawing all men to himself.



I fully agree with this. Scripture says so.
Where does it say in scripture that the Father died on the cross?

[Billyray]

TrueBlue--we have gone over this hundreds of times on this board--but I want to give you the position that you are arguing against. Perhaps you can take a look at it and tell me what issue you disagree with so we can at focus on that.



1. We are all given commandments to follow

2. We all have a choice to either keep the commandments or to break the commandments

3. Those who keep all of the commandments will live with God again (However nobody keeps all of the commandments--except Christ of course)

4. Those who break the commandments are responsible for breaking the commandments

5. If we do not keep all of the commandments we still have hope to live with God if we place our faith in Christ to save us (and for those in the OT it was in the future Messiah)

6. People have a choice to either accept Christ or reject him and those who reject Him do so willingly. Those who reject Him are not forced to reject Him. Anyone who places their faith in Christ will be saved

7. Because of our sinful nature and the fact that we are all "dead in tresp***es" our natural desire is to reject God and his commandments and we willingly do so

[James Banta]

TrueBlue--we have gone over this hundreds of times on this board--but I want to give you the position that you are arguing against. Perhaps you can take a look at it and tell me what issue you disagree with so we can at focus on that.

I agree with that, Billy and I are about the only ones here that will stand up and defend Calvinism and yet these things we believe 100%.. How can that be? We don't see how it effects God foreknowledge and therefore His authority to predestine believers to life and nonbelievers to the Lake of Fire.. IHS jim

[Libby]

Did the Father die on the cross?

When did the Son see the Father die on the cross?

Do you really think the Father had nothing to do with it? Were not the Father and the Holy Spirit right there with the Son?

John 5:19 "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself. ... is not able to do anything on His own, but only what He sees the Father doing. ."

[Billyray]

Do you really think the Father had nothing to do with it? Were not the Father and the Holy Spirit right there with the Son?

Of course the Father had something to do with it. But you must not have read the post very carefully because that is not what was said. I will post what was said below so you can take another look at it.




. . .The father was in Christ....Christ never did squat on his own.
everything that Christ did was because he saw the Father doing it. . .

This means that if the son said he was drawing all men to himself, it is only because the Son saw the father drawing all men to himself.


I fully agree with this. Scripture says so.

Where does it say in scripture that the Father died on the cross?

[Libby]

How could the Father draw anyone to him, without also drawing them to Jesus?

No, the Father did not die on the cross. The Father didn't have a body.

I think I have forgotten what started this conversation. :)

[alanmolstad]

How could the Father draw anyone to him, without also drawing them to Jesus?

No, the Father did not die on the cross. The Father didn't have a body.

I think I have forgotten what started this conversation. :)

once again......very good observation Libby!

what i have seen over and over is that billy cant catch-on to the idea that we can have free will while at the same time god is Sovereign.


To him its just something he cant understand.
This is the reason Calvinism had to invent their own rules and answers and pull stuff out of thin air.
It's because they simply could not understand what the bible was teaching.
That man has free will, while at the same time God is sovereign.

[neverending]

once again......very good observation Libby!

what i have seen over and over is that billy cant catch-on to the idea that we can have free will while at the same time god is Sovereign.


To him its just something he cant understand.
This is the reason Calvinism had to invent their own rules and answers and pull stuff out of thin air.
It's because they simply could not understand what the bible was teaching.
That man has free will, while at the same time God is sovereign.

Alan, is it proper to criticize another poster, even using their name in your comments? I highly doubt you would like it if the shoe were on the other foot.

[Billyray]

what i have seen over and over is that billy cant catch-on to the idea that we can have free will while at the same time god is Sovereign.

The reason I can't catch on to this concept Alan is because it is a contradiction, which I have tried to show you. If man is in ultimate control of all future events--not God--then how can you say that god is Sovereign?

[Billyray]

once again......very good observation Libby!


Alan I don't see how this post by Libby in any way corrects the false ***ertion that you made in your prior post. Perhaps you could explain that for me.

[Libby]

The reason I can't catch on to this concept Alan is because it is a contradiction, which I have tried to show you. If man is in ultimate control of all future events--not God--then how can you say that god is Sovereign?

The obvious answer is that man is not in control of all future events, particularly, in the bigger picture.

Do you agree that a ship's captain maintains control of the ship, without, hugely, interfering with his p***engers free will? Can the p***engers still make decisions about coming and going and how they will react to the situations they find themselves in? Can they still decide how they are going to treat people and the kinds of relationships they will have? Whether or not they will choose to sin or to obey God? All of this, as the Captain continues to steer the ship towards his chosen destination?

Pretty easy to understand, Billy. It just doesn't fit in with some of your preconceived notions. But, it does fit in, very nicely, with the Bible.

[Billyray]

The obvious answer is that man is not in control of all future events, particularly, in the bigger picture.

Then man does't have free will--as defined in the dictionary--like you are Alan keep going on about. Now if you want to change your term from "free will" to "choice" then sure that is true and I would agee with you because man does make choices.

[Billyray]

. . .The father was in Christ....Christ never did squat on his own.
everything that Christ did was because he saw the Father doing it. . .

This means that if the son said he was drawing all men to himself, it is only because the Son saw the father drawing all men to himself.


I fully agree with this. Scripture says so.

Where does it say in scripture that the Father died on the cross?


How could the Father draw anyone to him, without also drawing them to Jesus?

Libby can you tell me what this has to do with Alan's obvious incorrect statement above?

[Billyray]

Do you agree that a ship's captain maintains control of the ship, without, hugely, interfering with his p***engers free will?
If the p***engers had free will then they would be able to make any choice that they wanted to including total control of the ship. But they certainly have choices to make. As I said before both you and Alan are using the term free will but what you mean by this term is choice. But even Calvinists believe that man makes choices.

[Libby]

If the p***engers had free will then they would be able to make any choice that they wanted to including total control of the ship. But they certainly have choices to make. As I said before both you and Alan are using the term free will but what you mean by this term is choice. But even Calvinists believe that man makes choices.

Yes, you do believe we have choices. The problem with Calvinism is that it supposes that man will consistently only make ONE choice (to continue in sin and turn away from God) without God first regenerating him.

That belief makes it God's choice, rather than man's. God does not interfere with our free will, to that extent....although, he will regenerate and give us a new heart (usually, a little at a time), as we come to desire it.

[alanmolstad]

Libby.....I have guests at the house tonight......I will catch up with you later.....

[Billyray]

Yes, you do believe we have choices. The problem with Calvinism is that it supposes that man will consistently only make ONE choice (to continue in sin and turn away from God) without God first regenerating him.
But that person IS making a real and chooses exactly what he wants to do. And because he willingly chooses to break the commandments and to reject Christ, he is responsible for the consequences. If he did choose to obey all of the commandments OR accept Christ then he would live with God and God would welcome him with open arms.



God does not interfere with our free will. . .
Can you share with me the scriptures that you are you basing this belief that man has complete free will?



Merriam Webster
FREE WILL
1. voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will>
2 freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

[James Banta]

[BigJulie;154869]Jesus Christ is proof that your beliefs about this is not correct. Jesus Christ came and showed the disciples that He has a resurrected body. If you believe that God is one with Christ, than you must accept, that at least in some form, God has a body. Now the question is---do you believe that Christ is the express image of the Father or not? As I said, being Spirit does not mean you have no body--just as you have both.

Jesus had two clear teachings about the nature of God.. 1. He said that "God is Spirit".. That is not open to interpretation. It is a direct quote from the mouth of the Lord.. Later He taught us the nature of a Spirit. 2. He said "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." (Luke 24:39). You are teaching that Jesus was saying that the Father has both a tangible body and a spirit, as He said God is Spirit.. You disagree with Jesus about what the nature of a spirit is..

You disagree with the Holy Spirit as to the nature of God.. Through Paul the Holy Spirit tells us:

Col 1:12-17
Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.


Umm, nope, not according to Mormonism. As you know, Mormons understand that Jesus Christ was part of the Godhead prior to the beginning of the earth. That said...if you believe the Father and the Son "are the same Being"---then you also accept that God has a body.

Yes, mormonism teaches that Jesus BECAME a God sometime during His premortal life before the world was created. It also teaches that Jesus was born as a spirit the same way we all were.. That at one time (disreguarging birth order) he and we were equal. All spirit children of the Father.. Wasn't it sometime after his plan for our mortal lives, free to either accept God's ways or reject them, when He became divine? That doctrine is in direct violation of Isaiah 43:10? Jesus becoming a God well after the time when the Father became a God? I know the LDS are accustomed to having God make huge changes in His word to us.. But the real God of the Bible NEVER changes..


No, you are saying that they are different--in that Christ has a body and God the Father doesn't. You say that God is Spirit ONLY--and yet you state that Christ exists "along with" God the Father. Is your position that Christ has a resurrected body, but God the Father does not?---If you state that they are the same being--then you must admit, to you, your God has a body as part of that being is Jesus Christ who has a body.

I am NOT SAYING that they are the same person.. I have said this a hundred times or more.. The Father is not the Son. the Son is not the Father, neither is the Holy Spirit. But The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one God without end. Amen (2 Nephi 31:21).. No where is it taught that the Father can't be spirit and the Son tangible. All that is taught is the there is One God and He is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.. Unlike you I will not add to that. I won't add a man's explanation phrase to that description. God is One Lord and is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, Period! Not just "one in purpose". IHS jim

[Libby]

But that person IS making a real and chooses exactly what he wants to do. And because he willingly chooses to break the commandments and to reject Christ, he is responsible for the consequences. If he did choose to obey all of the commandments OR accept Christ then he would live with God and God would welcome him with open arms.

Yes, and that's exactly what happens when someone freely chooses Christ. But, you don't believe that is possible, unless God intervenes. I've outlined this "difference" between our beliefs, at least, three times, now. So, why do you keep asking about it? Have your beliefs changed? Do you believe that man is free to choose God, of his own agency? Without, first, being "changed" in some way, by God, Himself?


Can you share with me the scriptures that you are you basing this belief that man has complete free will?

I don't believe man has "complete" free will. We already discussed that. But, man is free to choose God, of his own free will, and God wants us to do that.

Which verses would you like to hear? Jesus weeping over man, in Jerusalem? God saying that he desires that ALL men come to him? There are verses in every book of the Bible that indicate that God knows we have the "ability" to turn to him, if we choose.

[James Banta]

Yes, and that's exactly what happens when someone freely chooses Christ. But, you don't believe that is possible, unless God intervenes. I've outlined this "difference" between our beliefs, at least, three times, now. So, why do you keep asking about it? Have your beliefs changed? Do you believe that man is free to choose God, of his own agency? Without, first, being "changed" in some way, by God, Himself?



I don't believe man has "complete" free will. We already discussed that. But, man is free to choose God, of his own free will, and God wants us to do that.

Which verses would you like to hear? Jesus weeping over man, in Jerusalem? God saying that he desires that ALL men come to him? There are verses in every book of the Bible that indicate that God knows we have the "ability" to turn to him, if we choose.

But God doesn't know what we will do now does He? The God you are talking about doesn't have any idea what we will do and what choices we will make.. MY GOD DOES.. He Knows all things. Therefore because our future is as well know to Him as our past is He can predestine us for life or ****ation.. Why? Because He already knows what we will do with His Grace.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Yes, and that's exactly what happens when someone freely chooses Christ. But, you don't believe that is possible, unless God intervenes.
Those who are unregenerate will choose to disobey the commandments and reject Christ. I think you and I would both agree with this statement regarding the Reformed position.

Those who are unregenerate have a true choice and that choice is noted in the first statement. Here is where we disagree. I say that they do have a choice. But you say that they don't have a choice. Which brings up a question.

Do you believe that those who are unregenerate are force to disobey the commandments and forced to reject Christ?

[Billyray]

I don't believe man has "complete" free will. We already discussed that. But, man is free to choose God, of his own free will, and God wants us to do that.


But that is what I believe as well. Man has a choice to either accept God or to reject HIM and is held responsible for that choice. Just because we know what choice they will make doesn't mean that they didn't have a choice.

[Libby]

But God doesn't know what we will do now does He? The God you are talking about doesn't have any idea what we will do and what choices we will make.. MY GOD DOES.. He Knows all things. Therefore because our future is as well know to Him as our past is He can predestine us for life or ****ation.. Why? Because He already knows what we will do with His Grace.. IHS jim

See, there you go, again, James, fighting strawmen.

I've been saying all over this board that God is omniscient and knows ALL. Yes, he knows whether or not we will choose him.

So, what, exactly is your problem with my post (which you have, obviously, misunderstood)?

[Libby]

Those who are unregenerate will choose to disobey the commandments and reject Christ. I think you and I would both agree with this statement regarding the Reformed position.

Those who are unregenerate have a true choice and that choice is noted in the first statement. Here is where we disagree. I say that they do have a choice. But you say that they don't have a choice. Which brings up a question.

Do you believe that those who are unregenerate are force to disobey the commandments and forced to reject Christ?

But, I DO believe man (even unregenerate) can choose God. Don't you see, this is where we differ, Billy?

I don't believe individuals can go about God's work, very effectively, until they have been regenerated, but to simply choose God, in the beginning, when God first starts drawing him? Yes, non-regenerated man can do that.

[Libby]

But that is what I believe as well. Man has a choice to either accept God or to reject HIM and is held responsible for that choice. Just because we know what choice they will make doesn't mean that they didn't have a choice.

Can a dead man walk? If he doesn't walk on command, would it be fair to blame him for not following that command?

[alanmolstad]

sure........i have a free night and im the only one on the forum....but the moment i have a house full of guests............

[alanmolstad]

See, there you go, again, James, fighting strawmen.

...........
So, what, exactly is your problem with my post (which you have, obviously, misunderstood)?

Libby I noticed the same thing when i read Jim's post????
I was thinking, "Where does he get these ideas?"

It's the same when I read a post from billy too.
I just have no idea?...it's like they are part of a different forum and are posting to comments made by other people and not us???????

Other than that, I got no clue what he is talking about.

[alanmolstad]

Do you believe that those who are unregenerate are force to disobey the commandments and forced to reject Christ?
If any person is forced to do anything, they would not be guilty.
If a person is held guilty, then it can ONLY be due to them having the ability at all times to have done something else.

This is why Jesus wept over the city and said, they....."would not" come to him.


'would not' is far different than saying 'could not'

[James Banta]

But, I DO believe man (even unregenerate) can choose God. Don't you see, this is where we differ, Billy?

I don't believe individuals can go about God's work, very effectively, until they have been regenerated, but to simply choose God, in the beginning, when God first starts drawing him? Yes, non-regenerated man can do that.

John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

So you disagree here with the Holy Spirit.. This is one of the reasons I question you Libby.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

See, there you go, again, James, fighting strawmen.

I've been saying all over this board that God is omniscient and knows ALL. Yes, he knows whether or not we will choose him.

So, what, exactly is your problem with my post (which you have, obviously, misunderstood)?

My point is that you deny Predestination.. Through God's knowledge of all things He can predesignate any He knows that will accept Him.. I have seen you deny that doctrine more than once.. after all it is one of the five points of Calvinism.. Maybe it's that you hate Calvinists and you are willing to point out all you see in them that you believe are wrong while you refuse to do so with the LDS.. Tell me which is worse, a person that believes in Jesus for their salvation yet hold Calvinism's 5 point as Biblical truth, or a person who believes in all the teachings of mormonism including the doctrine that God wasn't always God but was a mortal man who became a God through obedience to Laws and ordinances? IHS jim

[Libby]

John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

So you disagree here with the Holy Spirit.. This is one of the reasons I question you Libby.. IHS jim

What in the world are you talking about? Of course, I do NOT disagree with the Holy Spirit, nor do I have any problem, whatsoever, with the verse you have quoted.

Have no idea where you get your wild ***umptions, James, I really don't.

[Libby]

My point is that you deny Predestination.

NO, I don't. I've talked about predestination many times. He (God) predestines those whom he "knows".

And, I do not "hate" Calvinists. Do you HATE Mormons, because you speak against their beliefs??

[alanmolstad]

Alan, is it proper to criticize another poster, even using their name in your comments? I highly doubt you would like it if the shoe were on the other foot. I was pointing out facts to Libby.
Is a fact that billy has a screwed-up understanding of Free Will that has caused his understanding of the Christian faith some harm,

And I noted that both Billy and James seem to paint people with a false color, then attack them for holding teachings that no one actually believes...

James has started to invent "straw-man" arguments concerning Libby that are very odd to read...

[alanmolstad]

My point is that you deny Predestination.. Through God's knowledge of all things He can predesignate any He knows that will accept Him.. I have seen you deny that doctrine more than once....

nope...Libby has never once done that....
So you are just making that stuff up....

[James Banta]

NO, I don't. I've talked about predestination many times. He (God) predestines those whom he "knows".

And, I do not "hate" Calvinists. Do you HATE Mormons, because you speak against their beliefs??

Don't you hate Calvinism? You are right to deny that you hate Calvinists. I don't believe that you do. Can you believe that it isn't mormons that I hate, but mormonism? I know you don't deny that Calvinist are saved by the grace of the God of the Bible though their faith in Jesus, and not by works.. Do you also believe that the LDS are saved by the grace of their Jesus though their faith in him, and not by works. No but you act as through their Jesus is a real person that save all that believe in him? A creation that became a God? Or Libby is Godhood still your own personal goal.. It's hard to tell what you believe about them through all your pandering. You do take a lot of time to make them feel secure in their sin. I will continue showing them their failings along with the message of life through Faith in Jesus plus NOTHING.. If you can't stand seeing Smith called for being the fraud he was in his wild story of seeing two Gods, his abomination of believing in many, and his unconfused adulteries in his polygamy you need to at least stop with the witness of "I'm ok, you're ok".. Either that of leave those of us willing to explain to them the truth and put down those that would call that truth a lie and put a lie in it's place and call it truth.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Calvinism is a wrong concept.
I fight against it...
I help people see how false it is....but I save the term 'hate' for child molesters and people who talk in the theater

[Billyray]

Calvinism is a wrong concept.
I fight against it...
I help people see how false it is....but I save the term 'hate' for child molesters and people who talk in the theater
Alan let me as you about free will to see how free it really is. Fair enough?

Do you have "free will" to obey ALL of the commandments ALL of the time?

[James Banta]

Calvinism is a wrong concept.
I fight against it...
I help people see how false it is....but I save the term 'hate' for child molesters and people who talk in the theater

Do calvinists believe in The one true God who is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? Do they believe that they are saved by His grace through faith in Jesus plus nothing? Do they believe that after they are save that God prepared good works in advance for us to do? Just where are they in such error that you have authority to show them their false doctrine? Who are you to fight against God knowing the beginning from the end, and who is saved by His grace and who rejects that grace.. Even Armenians will admit that much and what else is there to believe in the establishment of
Unconditional Election/Irresistible Grace. Since God will not force Himself on us, He will draw only those in His infinite knowledge that will come to Him.. Is that false? As I asked the LDS to acknowlegde all of the Bible not just the p***ages they like.. I know we can find many a p***age that tells us that God will not force us into His grace but there are still p***ages that teach us only those He calls will come to Jesus and the Life He provides..

So Calvinism along with Arminianism are correct.. I personally have a problem with Limited Atonement but I have no problem believing at even those that have been predestined as God's elect have as much access to His sacrifice as those who He knows will reject Him those who are already doomed in His knowledge without any hope of being redeemed. I know that isn't the way that doctrine is spelled out but it all comes down to God's will not our own.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Alan let me as you about free will to see how free it really is. Fair enough?

Do you have "free will" to obey ALL of the commandments ALL of the time?

its like the trafic laws we all are taught to keep....

most of the time we do ok....but from time you might see me a bit over the speed limit.....

there is nothing about the laws that are byond us.....but we all have other agendas....


keeping the law not always on my top list

[Billyray]

Alan let me as you about free will to see how free it really is. Fair enough?

Do you have "free will" to obey ALL of the commandments ALL of the time?

its like the trafic laws we all are taught to keep....

most of the time we do ok....but from time you might see me a bit over the speed limit.....

there is nothing about the laws that are byond us.....but we all have other agendas....


keeping the law not always on my top list
I take it from your answer that you don't have "free will" to keep ALL of the commandments.

Is it fair to say that you do not have the "ability" to keep the ALL of the commandments?

[alanmolstad]

you dont even read my posts....itß clear to me

[Libby]

Don't you hate Calvinism? You are right to deny that you hate Calvinists. I don't believe that you do.

No, I don't hate Calvinism. I just think it's a wrong interpretation of "some" things, in the Bible, mainly in the area of how God uses His supreme sovereignty. I believe most Calvinists are sincere Christians and I agree with them on many things.

You're correct that I do not hate Calvinists.


Can you believe that it isn't mormons that I hate, but mormonism?

I do believe that you don't hate Mormons, but I have to say you kind of come across that way, sometimes, to them...and even to other Christians, at times, like Alan and myself.


I know you don't deny that Calvinist are saved by the grace of the God of the Bible though their faith in Jesus, and not by works..

That's correct.


Do you also believe that the LDS are saved by the grace of their Jesus though their faith in him, and not by works. No but you act as through their Jesus is a real person that save all that believe in him? A creation that became a God?

I, usually, refrain from making judgments about the state of an individual's salvation or relationship with Christ. I think there are many in the LDS Church who worship and know the "real" Jesus Christ. Just as there are many in mainstream Christianity who don't have a clue, as to who Jesus is.

Do I disagree with LDS doctrine, to a large degree? Yes, I do. But, I also find very interesting areas of agreement, at times. I don't find "black and white" in any religion. We all see through a "gl*** darkly", as Julie mentioned.


Or Libby is Godhood still your own personal goal.. It's hard to tell what you believe about them through all your pandering.

No, Godhood is not a goal. It wasn't my goal, as LDS, either. Was it yours?


You do take a lot of time to make them feel secure in their sin. I will continue showing them their failings along with the message of life through Faith in Jesus plus NOTHING..

I think my time is better spent in finding and correcting my own sins. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. But, I don't mind discussing doctrine and where I find disagreement, if it comes up.

I really don't think much is accomplished by accosting people (either on the street or in a public forum) and calling them out as "sinners" for their beliefs. We are all sinners...and we all hold some beliefs that are in error...every single one of us.


If you can't stand seeing Smith called for being the fraud he was in his wild story of seeing two Gods, his abomination of believing in many, and his unconfused adulteries in his polygamy you need to at least stop with the witness of "I'm ok, you're ok".. Either that of leave those of us willing to explain to them the truth and put down those that would call that truth a lie and put a lie in it's place and call it truth.. IHS jim

No, I will not leave the "witnessing" to street screechers, alone. Please, James, pray about the arrogance with which you try to persuade people. It really, really gets in the way. That is some "truth" that I was impressed by the Spirit to give you. I hope you will accept it in the same vain you believe your "truth telling" should be accepted, by the Mormons. You expect people to listen to you, when you are disrespectful of them, as people, but usually, when you are treated the same way, you want that person to GO AWAY!! So, why would you expect different behavior from those you are treating disrespectfully? Actually, most of the Mormons take it very well, compared to you! :D

As for Joseph Smith, I have some similar feelings about him, as you do, and I don't mind saying that, but it's not going to be an emphasis, when I am talking to LDS...if I really want them to listen to me and take me seriously.

[Billyray]

No, I don't hate Calvinism. I just think it's a wrong interpretation of "some" things, in the Bible, mainly in the area of how God uses His supreme sovereignty.

But the main issue you have with Calvinism is the same issue you have with your belief. Yet you still criticize Calvinism. Why is that?

[alanmolstad]

Is it fair to say that you do not have the "ability" to keep the ALL of the commandments?why not?

there is a commandment to "Love one another as I have loved you"

Is there any reason I cant keep this?....nope.

Did I keep t today?.....yes.

Did I lack anything, or did I have something extra today?.......nope.

[alanmolstad]

so its the same with any law or commandment found in the christian faith...

The yoke of Christ is easy...no heavy lifting.

If we are told to do something, its because we can.....and we dont need to struggle to do it too!

"Do on to others".....is this hard to do?...nope.
If it were hard it would not be part of the christian faith.

What a pointless faith we would have if we could not do what we believe God wants.....

[Libby]

But the main issue you have with Calvinism is the same issue you have with your belief. Yet you still criticize Calvinism. Why is that?

Not sure I understand what you mean? I don't have a general problem of unbelief. I have a problem with "some" of Calvin's interpretations.

[alanmolstad]

No, I will not leave the "witnessing" to street screechers, alone. ......

you go girl!

[alanmolstad]

I take it from your answer that you don't have "free will" to keep ALL of the commandments.

Thats silly and you know it.......there is no way a person can look at any of my answers to any of the questions and issues I have addressed and come to such a conclusion.

You are just making stuff up now.....

[The Pheonix]

Okay, another Bible verse for you (and this is an important theme that is repeated many, many times throughout scripture)..

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. (Ephesians 2)This is because no man "can" boast. Without Jesus Christ and his atonement, nothing anyone did would matter.

To quote Elder McConkie's final address 5 day before his death;
"I am one of his witnesses, and in the coming days, I shall feel the nail marks in his hands and feet and I will wet his feet with my tears. Bit I will not know better than I know now that he is God's almighty Son, and that salvation comes in and through his atoning sacrifice and in no other way!"

No Mormon believes that they can save themselves; that dog won't hunt.

[RealFakeHair]

This is because no man "can" boast. Without Jesus Christ and his atonement, nothing anyone did would matter.

To quote Elder McConkie's final address 5 day before his death;
"I am one of his witnesses, and in the coming days, I shall feel the nail marks in his hands and feet and I will wet his feet with my tears. Bit I will not know better than I know now that he is God's almighty Son, and that salvation comes in and through his atoning sacrifice and in no other way!"

No Mormon believes that they can save themselves; that dog won't hunt.

Where was that atoning sacrifice at?

[Billyray]

Not sure I understand what you mean? I don't have a general problem of unbelief. I have a problem with "some" of Calvin's interpretations.
Your main objection that you have voiced to me about Calvinism is the following (last sentence below)

According to Calvinism man has a choice to either follow the commandment or break them. Man also has a choice to either follow Christ or reject him. However in man's unregenerate state because of his his sin nature he desires to sin and wants nothing to do with Christ. You have voiced your criticism that man really does not really have a choice and that this would make it God's fault.



So let's take a look at YOUR (Libby's) beliefs below which has the exact same issue that you raised with your objection of Calvinism

1. We have all been given commandments to follow
2. We all have a choice to either follow the commandments or to disobey them
3. We are responsible for out choices and will be held responsible.
4. We are incapable of keeping ALL of the commandments
5. The basis for sending anyone to Hell is breaking the commandments
6. Therefore man is not responsible because he really didn't have a choice to keep ALL of the commandments because he is incapable to do so therefore God is responsible.

[Libby]

This is because no man "can" boast. Without Jesus Christ and his atonement, nothing anyone did would matter.

To quote Elder McConkie's final address 5 day before his death;
"I am one of his witnesses, and in the coming days, I shall feel the nail marks in his hands and feet and I will wet his feet with my tears. Bit I will not know better than I know now that he is God's almighty Son, and that salvation comes in and through his atoning sacrifice and in no other way!"

No Mormon believes that they can save themselves; that dog won't hunt.

Yes, I know that Mormons don't believe they can save themselves. I think I made a whole thread about that, here, somewhere. It's the faith/works thread.

The difference I see is that LDS doctrine includes works as a necessary part of salvation, whereas mainstream believes it is all the work of Jesus Christ (that he is working through us).

[Libby]

Your main objection that you have voiced to me about Calvinism is the following (last sentence below)

According to Calvinism man has a choice to either follow the commandment or break them. Man also has a choice to either follow Christ or reject him. However in man's unregenerate state because of his his sin nature he desires to sin and wants nothing to do with Christ. You have voiced your criticism that man really does not really have a choice and that this would make it God's fault.

Billy, could we keep this discussion to one thread? I feel like I'm answering the same posts twice. Not your fault....I know we have kind of been wandering all over the board with this discussion, but I would really like to confine it "somewhere". Maybe, on the thread where I already addressed this?

[James Banta]

Billy, could we keep this discussion to one thread? I feel like I'm answering the same posts twice. Not your fault....I know we have kind of been wandering all over the board with this discussion, but I would really like to confine it "somewhere". Maybe, on the thread where I already addressed this?

We could bring the discussion back to reason for faith.. Sir said that if the Gold Plates available that wouldn't make people believe in mormonism anymore than they do now.. I tend to agree.. As long as another gospel that is not the same as the Gospel Paul preached to the Church it doesn't matter who or what teaches that other gospel.. They are accursed..

It would be interesting through The BofA was so successfully translated we can depend that even if the plates did exist Smith would have been shown as inventing the translation.. IHS jim

[neverending]

[QUOTE=The Pheonix;156113]This is because no man "can" boast. Without Jesus Christ and his atonement, nothing anyone did would matter.

To quote Elder McConkie's final address 5 day before his death;
"I am one of his witnesses, and in the coming days, I shall feel the nail marks in his hands and feet and I will wet his feet with my tears. Bit I will not know better than I know now that he is God's almighty Son, and that salvation comes in and through his atoning sacrifice and in no other way!"

No Mormon believes that they can save themselves; that dog won't hunt.

Phoenix, what is needed is your definition of what salvation is to you. Would you please give me your definition?

[The Pheonix]

Where was that atoning sacrifice at?
It began in the Garden of Gethsemane, and ended when he said "It is finished". Which is spelled out in the Gospels, and in almost ever hymnal in every Church, we sing of the Garden of Gethsemane.

[RealFakeHair]

It began in the Garden of Gethsemane, and ended when he said "It is finished". Which is spelled out in the Gospels, and in almost ever hymnal in every Church, we sing of the Garden of Gethsemane.

Oh, it did? Is there anything in the Old or New Testament confirming what you just said.
It seem to me Paul, said, " I preach Christ crucified!"
I have never heard a Christian say, " I preach Christ in the Garden of Gethsemane."
Help us out here, and I"d be must appreciated.

[James Banta]

I don't think I had a firmly held belief about it, but I did think that God's "realm" was more than just this planet.

So, what do you believe?

More than just this world? How about He is the creator of ALL, whether they can be seen or not.. That would mean stars and planets in distant galaxies that we can't see are still His creation.. By saying that God's realm is merely more than just this planet you are pandering to the LDS.. Stand up and defend His word.. He is the ONLY GOD THAT EXISTS (Isaiah 43:8), That He is God of all things.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

I thought you were once LDS. A simple reading of Abraham should clarify it for you.

the BofA is not a translation.. It has been proven to be a copy of the Book of the dead.. God was never united in word or deed with pagans.. Yet that is just what you want to do in your insistence that there are still some missing pagers in the collection of Egyptian m****cripts Smith bought from a traveling show.. That God's word was mixed into the Pagan nonsense. This is easily seen by the poorly reconstructed facsimiles that are included in the PofPG.. Those are there, all the text listed on the same panel where they exist is ignored but some lost panel has the word of God on them? GET REAL.. IHS jim

[Libby]

More than just this world? How about He is the creator of ALL, whether they can be seen or not.. That would mean stars and planets in distant galaxies that we can't see are still His creation.. By saying that God's realm is merely more than just this planet you are pandering to the LDS.. Stand up and defend His word.. He is the ONLY GOD THAT EXISTS (Isaiah 43:8), That He is God of all things.. IHS jim

If you're going to take things out of context, James, it's not going to make sense. That post was in reference to my belief (or understanding) as an LDS.

My belief, today, is that there is only One God, the God of All That Is.

[James Banta]

If you're going to take things out of context, James, it's not going to make sense. That post was in reference to my belief (or understanding) as an LDS.

My belief, today, is that there is only One God, the God of All That Is.

Add in the ONLY GOD THAT EXISTS... IHS jim

[Libby]

LOL James! You are such a contrarian!

When someone says there is ONLY ONE GOD...what do you think that means??

[James Banta]

LOL James! You are such a contrarian!

When someone says there is ONLY ONE GOD...what do you think that means??

What is a contrarian? Is that some new age cultist?

I mean that the Lord our God is One Lord! I mean that being a witness of God I know that He is the Lord there was no other formed before Him and no other was formed after Him. I know that Jesus is the Mighty God the Everlasting Father. I know that the Father is called God by Jesus, that Jesus is called God by the Holy Spirit and that the Apostle Peter called the Holy Spirit God.. Yet Jesus confirmed that The Lord our God is one Lord.. So how is that possible.. That these three who are all referred to as God in the scripture are ONE BEING, ONE ESSENCE.

As I have shown in the past there is one space. It is infinite. Yet within that space there are three separate and distinct dimensions. Each one infinite and therefore contain all the point in space that can exist. These dimension are never separate, together they are the one space where we move and have our being.. That is the best example I can show you of the oneness of God.. The Bible tell us we can know Him by His creation, space is His creation..

Without knowing at least that which is so clearly taught in the scripture of God there is no salvation.. IHS jim

[Libby]

I mean that the Lord our God is One Lord!

Yes, that's exactly what it means. Good ***.

[Libby]

What is a contrarian?

A contrarian is a person who takes up a contrary position, a person who seems to be "contrary for the sake of being contrary"...

[James Banta]

A contrarian is a person who takes up a contrary position, a person who seems to be "contrary for the sake of being contrary"...

Then by the dictionary that is what you are as well..

Merriam-Webster Dictionary
con·trar·i·an

noun \kən-ˈtrer-ē-ən, kän-\ : a person who takes an opposite or different position or at***ude from other people

Are you doing just what that definition says? I admit that I have many different positions or at***ude than those of other people.. Seems you do to. There is nothing I saw that says anything about doing so for the sake of doing so.. IHS jim

[Libby]

Then by the dictionary that is what you are as well..

Merriam-Webster Dictionary
con·trar·i·an

noun \kən-ˈtrer-ē-ən, kän-\ : a person who takes an opposite or different position or at***ude from other people

Are you doing just what that definition says? I admit that I have many different positions or at***ude than those of other people.. Seems you do to. There is nothing I saw that says anything about doing so for the sake of doing so.. IHS jim

Well, then, you weren't looking at the same definition I was. Doing it just for the sake of it, is exactly what I meant, in reference to yourself. It seems, when you get a little ticked at someone, you start being a contrarian, just for the sake of it.

This is the sense in which I was using it.

contrarian (kənˈtrɛərɪən)

— n
a contrary or obstinate person

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/contrarian

A contrarian is a person who takes up a contrary position, a person who seems to be "contrary for the sake of being contrary,"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrarian

You can change that to obstinate, if you like or argumentative.

[James Banta]

Well, then, you weren't looking at the same definition I was. Doing it just for the sake of it, is exactly what I meant, in reference to yourself. It seems, when you get a little ticked at someone, you start being a contrarian, just for the sake of it.

This is the sense in which I was using it.

contrarian (kənˈtrɛərɪən)

— n
a contrary or obstinate person

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/contrarian

A contrarian is a person who takes up a contrary position, a person who seems to be "contrary for the sake of being contrary,"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrarian

You can change that to obstinate, if you like or argumentative.

Looks like the definition is so varying that you could mean just about anything you wanted to in using it.. How about this.. We don't talk about personaities as to condemn one another.. Lets discuss issues of mormonism as compared to Christianity.. And if you see mormonism as Christianity I show you that you are wrong. If I am attacking them more than Jesus attacked those during His mortal ministry that looked to Abraham, or the Law for their salvation.. If you again start pandering them as to tell them that "I'am ok you're ok", I will ask you to stop.. IHS jim

[Libby]

How about this.. We don't talk about personaities as to condemn one another..

I will agree to that much. That's all I've asked of you, all along.

[Libby]

If you again start pandering them as to tell them that "I'am ok you're ok", I will ask you to stop..

This, I would consider breaking your promise, above, not to discuss personalities in a condemning way.

[James Banta]

This, I would consider breaking your promise, above, not to discuss personalities in a condemning way.

Not at all I said if I get too sharp in my attacks on mormonism you can correct me, just as I will correct you if you soft peddle too much.. I know you don't like the word pandering but to pander would be to give the LDS what they want, that is recognition of their religion as christian. That would mean they are justified to have their arrogant argument that all Churches have some truth, they just have more.. Pandering isn't a personal weakness it is a behavior.. If I am overbearing tell me and I'll back off if you pander I tell you and you can stop it.. IHS jim

[Libby]

Not at all I said if I get too sharp in my attacks on mormonism you can correct me, just as I will correct you if you soft peddle too much.. I know you don't like the word pandering but to pander would be to give the LDS what they want, that is recognition of their religion as christian. That would mean they are justified to have their arrogant argument that all Churches have some truth, they just have more.. Pandering isn't a personal weakness it is a behavior.. If I am overbearing tell me and I'll back off if you pander I tell you and you can stop it.. IHS jim

No, I don't want to monitor your behavior, James. And, I don't want you monitoring mine. You just do what you feel is right and I will try very hard not to criticize. I would appreciate it, if you can do the same for me.

[Apologette]

LOL James! You are such a contrarian!

When someone says there is ONLY ONE GOD...what do you think that means??
Well for Mormons it means there are millions of celestial gods that once were men, but that only one reigns over planet earth? What would Yogananda say?

[Apologette]

No, I don't want to monitor your behavior, James. And, I don't want you monitoring mine. You just do what you feel is right and I will try very hard not to criticize. I would appreciate it, if you can do the same for me.
So, what's your religious affiliation now? Mormon (I think you've been that twice, right); Christian, or a Hindu follower of Yogananda who said everything is a dream? I think folks here have the right to know.

[Libby]

I've always been a follower of Christ, no matter the "church".

I think I told you before that I attend a Christian Reformed Church.

I don't know why you think anyone needs to know that. A lot of people are not as open about their affiliations, as I have been.

I have not been in an LDS Church since 2009. That's five years out.

[Apologette]

I've always been a follower of Christ, no matter the "church".

Bologna! You cannot follow Christ and follow the "other Christ" of Mormonism, and certainly not the dreaming Hindu, Yogananda. This means you do not know the genuine Jesus.

I think I told you before that I attend a Christian Reformed Church.

But don't seem to understand election. I see.

I don't know why you think anyone needs to know that. A lot of people are not as open about their affiliations, as I have been.

What of double-mindedness? You consistently defend Mormonism here as far as I can see. Why is that? You think Joseph Smith was a genuine prophet?

I have not been in an LDS Church since 2009. That's five years out.

So what? After that didn't you get invovled with Yoga Hinduism? How could you do that? And if anybody doubts that, they can simply go to the Hindu site on WM and see where I debated you.

[Libby]

So what? After that didn't you get invovled with Yoga Hinduism? How could you do that? And if anybody doubts that, they can simply go to the Hindu site on WM and see where I debated you.



Where have you seen me deny that? What is your point? Do you really think Christians are perfect and never have doubts or explore various sides of Christianity? I've always been a seeker and always will be. But, I will also always be a Christian.

I understand the Calvinist view of "election". I considered myself a Calvinist for awhile, which is why I am in a Reformed Church. But, I have come to believe and understand it is not really the correct view of God's election. I'm not even sure, exactly, what the correct view is...I just know that it has to involve man's will, in order to be "just" and to maintain man's responsibility in whether or not he turns to God.

[neverending]

I've always been a follower of Christ, no matter the "church".

I think I told you before that I attend a Christian Reformed Church.

I don't know why you think anyone needs to know that. A lot of people are not as open about their affiliations, as I have been.

I have not been in an LDS Church since 2009. That's five years out.

If a person had TRULY accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, there would be NO need to explore any other religions. One would find a church home where only the Bible is taught, nothing else. Libby, it is hard for me and all other Christians here to accept your word that you are Born Again.

[James Banta]

No, I don't want to monitor your behavior, James. And, I don't want you monitoring mine. You just do what you feel is right and I will try very hard not to criticize. I would appreciate it, if you can do the same for me.

You have two ways to stop me.. 1. Stop pandering to the LDS 2. Leave this channel.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

You have two ways to stop me.. 1. Stop pandering to the LDS 2. Leave this channel.. IHS jim
Ok,,,or...being this is yet another attempt to push someone away from the forum that has just as much right to post here as anyone....I suggest that perhaps a REPORT POST might be also on the agenda of things to try....

[James Banta]

Ok,,,or...being this is yet another attempt to push someone away from the forum that has just as much right to post here as anyone....I suggest that perhaps a REPORT POST might be also on the agenda of things to try....

Do it! Jill and I have spoken about this.. She agrees that I have the right to ask anyone to leave as long as I make it clear that I have no right to force my will on anyone. So you do what you have to do. I have no fear of what Jill or any one that has authority over the forum will do.. I hate threats.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Do it! Jill and I have spoken about this.. She agrees that I have the right to ask anyone to leave as long as I make it clear that I have no right to force my will on anyone. So you do what you have to do. I have no fear of what Jill or any one that has authority over the forum will do.. I hate threats.. IHS jimYou are now acting like a bully

[James Banta]

You are now acting like a bully

I am acting like a bully? I never threatened you.. You were the one that came to me with threats.. You want to report me, then do it.. You don't need to try to get me to agree with you by threat.. Just make your reports.. IHS jim

[Libby]

You have two ways to stop me.. 1. Stop pandering to the LDS 2. Leave this channel.. IHS jim

Yes, you ARE bullying, James. The above is a threat that you will continue to har*** me, unless I do your bidding. I either have to LEAVE or play by YOUR RULES or you are going to continue to follow me around, har***ing me, after I have simply asked you to leave me alone.

[James Banta]

Yes, you ARE bullying, James. The above is a threat that you will continue to har*** me, unless I do your bidding. I either have to LEAVE or play by YOUR RULES or you are going to continue to follow me around, har***ing me, after I have simply asked you to leave me alone.

That is a statement tat I will continue to question you as you pander to the LDS.. That is all it is.. If you were a Christin you wouldn't try to divide the Church into little pieces.. You bring up GARBAGE that you say divides us, I bring up the facts that in the God we worship and the salvation He has provided for us by His grace through faith in Jesus the Church is in 100% agreement.. You are teaching error, I am teaching His truth.. IHS jim

[Apologette]

Where have you seen me deny that? What is your point? Do you really think Christians are perfect and never have doubts or explore various sides of Christianity? I've always been a seeker and always will be. But, I will also always be a Christian.

I understand the Calvinist view of "election". I considered myself a Calvinist for awhile, which is why I am in a Reformed Church. But, I have come to believe and understand it is not really the correct view of God's election. I'm not even sure, exactly, what the correct view is...I just know that it has to involve man's will, in order to be "just" and to maintain man's responsibility in whether or not he turns to God.

I don't care if you consider yourself a Calvinist-Arminian-Sacramentalist-Roman Catholic! This forum is NOT to argue with Christians and pus=sy foot around the disgusting depravity of Mormon doctrine which denies Our Lord's Deity and mocks salvation by grace and teaches that there are millions and millions of exalted male gods fully equipped with male sex organs for reproducing themselves across the universe. In other words, the forum is not about YOU! Address Mormon heresies and stop arguing with a Christian like Jim!

[alanmolstad]

I don't care if you consider yourself a Calvinist-Arminian-Sacramentalist-Roman Catholic! This forum is NOT to argue with Christians and pus=sy foot around the disgusting depravity of Mormon doctrine which denies Our Lord's Deity and mocks salvation by grace. In other words, the forum is not about YOU! Address Mormon heresies and stop arguing with a Christian like Jim!

Oh?.......


Well, I think things are going fine....

and if someone has anything they want to say?...then I think we should welcome the new comments and look forward to even more!

[Libby]

I agree, Alan. No one is stopping anyone from discussing whatever they want. As a matter of fact, you put up a thread on Mormonism, not long ago, that James highjacked with his false allegations about me, supposedly, pandering (which he has yet to prove).

I don't argue with James, Apollogette. He makes false allegations and I ask him to prove them. I've actually had him on "ignore" most of the time I have been here, but he still continues to follow me around and misrepresents most everything I say and then asks me to leave (which is a bad habit of his...he has done this to a lot of people).

I don't want trouble with anyone, but neither will I be a doormat.

[alanmolstad]

I agree, Alan. No one is stopping anyone from discussing whatever they want. As a matter of fact, you put up a thread on Mormonism, not long ago, that James highjacked with his false allegations about me, supposedly, pandering (which he has yet to prove).

I don't argue with James, Apollogette. He makes false allegations and I ask him to prove them. I've actually had him on "ignore" most of the time I have been here, but he still continues to follow me around and misrepresents most everything I say and then asks me to leave (which is a bad habit of his...he has done this to a lot of people).

I don't want trouble with anyone, but neither will I be a doormat.

I think everyone also has to step up the watchfulness when it comes to the type of "bullying" we have seen attempted against you as of late, and to report it quickly when observed, and to warn others not to think that just being a Christian means you can get away with it around here.

[Libby]

I agree. Unfortunately, this board doesn't seem to be well monitored, anymore. So, not sure that is very helpful.

[alanmolstad]

I agree. Unfortunately, this board doesn't seem to be well monitored, anymore. So, not sure that is very helpful.With so few posters, it means that one or two of the main posters (like yourself) take on the role of being able to control the flow of conversations a lot better.

If the forum was real busy then your posts and my posts would get lost in the pile soon after we click them onto the forum.

But because there are so few of us, if I decide that some so-N-so has started to act toward me or others with bad manners, then I can simply put them on IGNORE for a day or two, and unless they like talking to themselves, they better learn their lesson and play nice.

[Libby]

WM board (even in it's past incarnation) was never very busy. It would go for weeks at a time without even one post. I thought this new board might revive it...and it did for awhile...but, soon fell back into it's old pattern of low activity.

[alanmolstad]

WM board (even in it's past incarnation) was never very busy. It would go for weeks at a time without even one post. I thought this new board might revive it...and it did for awhile...but, soon fell back into it's old pattern of low activity.
......

where two or three are gathered.......


if this place were busy I doubt you would have ever noticed me.....

[Libby]

I don't know, I noticed you the first time you ever showed up, because you were encouraging everyone to "be nice"...and I liked that. lol

[James Banta]

I don't know, I noticed you the first time you ever showed up, because you were encouraging everyone to "be nice"...and I liked that. lol

I guess that means you hate those that call sinners sinners.. I guess you hate Jesus because He called sinners sons of the devil. I guess you hate Him for calling that same group VIPERS.. And me for calling the believing LDS unregenerate sinners because they believe they enter this world clean and become sinners.. That they put the words of a man over the teaching of Jesus given to us through His word that they also deny.. That they deny the Bible the same as you have.. They won't tell us where the Bible is mistranslated but still insist that it is.. Yes being nice is a wonderful way of following Jesus isn't it.. If any of them would like to sit down and really examine their beliefs against what Jesus really taught. I or any other Christian here and I mean Christian not a person that believes a works we can do is a requirement for salvation or a person that has believed in other gods but a real Christian that know that Jesus is the Word and the Word is God.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

I don't know, I noticed you the first time you ever showed up, because you were encouraging everyone to "be nice"...and I liked that. lolthanks Libby

i like to think that good manners reflect well on our parents....

[Apologette]

I agree, Alan. No one is stopping anyone from discussing whatever they want. As a matter of fact, you put up a thread on Mormonism, not long ago, that James highjacked with his false allegations about me, supposedly, pandering (which he has yet to prove).

I don't argue with James, Apollogette. He makes false allegations and I ask him to prove them. I've actually had him on "ignore" most of the time I have been here, but he still continues to follow me around and misrepresents most everything I say and then asks me to leave (which is a bad habit of his...he has done this to a lot of people).

I don't want trouble with anyone, but neither will I be a doormat.

You are trying to cause division here by discussing Calvinism vs.Arminianism. What does that have to do with Mormonism, and what is your purpose for doing so, other than to cause confusion here? Why not discuss the Mormon belief that Jesus is a creature and the brother of another creature named Satan? How about addressing Mormonism instead of using Calvin as yours (and Alan's) collective whipping boy?

[Libby]

thanks Libby

i like to think that good manners reflect well on our parents....

Indeed....and our Father in Heaven.

[James Banta]

You are trying to cause division here by discussing Calvinism vs.Arminianism. What does that have to do with Mormonism, and what is your purpose for doing so, other than to cause confusion here? Why not discuss the Mormon belief that Jesus is a creature and the brother of another creature named Satan? How about addressing Mormonism instead of using Calvin as yours (and Alan's) collective whipping boy?

There is another channel on the forum that is better suited for such a discussion. It doesn't and shouldn't be conducted on a channel that is meant for the discussion of Mormonism.. I think it is very rude to try to take over a channel with discussions off subject not only to the subject of a thread but off subject to the entire channel.. Looks like Libby and Alan have decided to make this the Calvimism vs Arminian channel no matter what it was meant to be.. I think this channel would be better off if both of them were to leave.. IHS jim

[TrueBlue?]

TrueBlue---do you ever wonder why we come. I keep praying that those who really want to know about our beliefs and doctrines will go to the source. I suppose that those who want dirt will always find it just as the Pharisees did of Christ. If they can find fault with One who is perfect, how much more so can they find dirt on those who are not. I see your point. I am thankful for the few LDS who suffer to come here and still give answers to what may seem like outlandish charges to us, but seem very real to those who are either new to the faith or on a rocky point in their life. The posters here will always find new and inventive ways to make the same charges in very different ways. I have often come here to solely read the answers given by you and a couple others here because of how well you answer the charges.

[Apologette]

When speaking about the Book of Mormon, some critics wonder why the golden plates, why they were taken, why we can't see them, etc. Libby has suggested that were the golden plates still around and people were able to see them, that would at least give her a reason to look into the LDS faith's claims closer, but she admits that it would not convince her to align with that faith as there are other issues she has about Mormonism.

So here is the question for non-LDS:

If you were able to see the golden plates, and you were ***ured they were authentic and that they were what they are purported to be, what are the other issues that you have with Mormonism that would keep you from accepting its message?

Well, Sir, aka Apollos, maybe if we were able to see Martians we'd believe in them.

[MickeyS]

Well, Sir, aka Apollos, maybe if we were able to see Martians we'd believe in them.

Oh Catherine, you're a hoot ;)

[Phoenix]

Well, Sir, aka Apollos, maybe if we were able to see Martians we'd believe in them.

so if you were able to see God then you'd believe in HIM?

[Apologette]

so if you were able to see God then you'd believe in HIM?

Maybe you and your buddy Apollos can find that on my Facebook page - after all, who else but YOU knew that information Jeff, NRAJeff?

[Apologette]

so if you were able to see God then you'd believe in HIM?

Maybe you and your buddy Apollos can find that on my Facebook page - after all, who else but YOU knew that information Jeff, NRAJeff?

[Apologette]

Oh Catherine, you're a hoot ;)

Better a Hoot than a Fool.

[Apologette]

Jeff (Phoenix) is back to posting on CARM.......he'll be back shortly, as he usually ends up getting infractions due to his snarky comments.

[Christian]

***uming the BoM is what it says it is, and understanding that LDS can reconcile that Isaiah verse quite easily and harmoniously with the BoM and LDS doctrine, what other reason would you give to not be aligned with the LDS faith?

INCLUDING the d&c132 where it tells you that you can BECOME A GOD, or pgp abraham 4 where it says "they (that is, the Gods). . .?"

Sorry, but such reconcilliation is totally impossible. There CAN BE NO OTHER GODS and OTHER GODS at the same time.

[Christian]

so if you were able to see God then you'd believe in HIM?


GOD I know. HIM I believe in TOTALLY. YOUR gods I am not interested in meeting. . .

[alanmolstad]

I am acting like a bully? I never threatened you.. You were the one that came to me with threats.. You want to report me, then do it.. You don't need to try to get me to agree with you by threat.. Just make your reports.. IHS jim



Just in case Jim was wondering....

I decided that a few of Jim's posts did seem to me to need to be reviewed, as I believed that we should always try to encourage people to post more, and not keep asking people to go away all the time.

I mean Jim can sure post the stuff the way he wants, but its just that I sure dont want to have to listen to the same guy always asking anyone who dared to disagree with him to go away
He even told me to go away after we disagreed on some type of minor point on the book of Genesis.
It got to the point where people were being told to go away when there was really so very few posters here anyway one has to ask who would be left here to talk to?.........

and so, I believe some of his posts were reviewed......

Im not sure of how that ended? , (well except for later I noticed the word "BANNED"appeared under his name)


......enough said

[Apologette]

GOD I know. HIM I believe in TOTALLY. YOUR gods I am not interested in meeting. . .

Exactly, Christian. The "gods" of Mormonism are exalted finite beings. Why would anybody trade the True and Living God, YHWH, for an "exalted" Mormon?

[Phoenix]

GOD I know.
have you seen God?? that other poster sneeringly seemed to imply that you can't know something unless you've seen it.

you think that posters statement is false??

[Christian]

[QUOTE=Phoenix;168677]have you seen God?? that other poster sneeringly seemed to imply that you can't know something unless you've seen it.

you think that posters statement is false??[/QUOTE

Yes, I have seen God IN HIS HANDIWORK. I have seen my sons when they were newborns. I have seen a flower, and I have seen lives changed in ways no HUMAN could have made it happen.

Do I think that poster's statement is false?? I have no idea. . .I haven't READ it, don't know what he/she said, OR the context in which it was said.

Just because YOU jump to strange conclusions does not mean I should.

But then, you are a mormon. . .:rolleyes:. . .aren't you? Such poor reasoning skills seem to come with that territory.

[BigJulie]

Exactly, Christian. The "gods" of Mormonism are exalted finite beings. Why would anybody trade the True and Living God, YHWH, for an "exalted" Mormon?

Mormons believe we are eternal in nature. Because God knows all and all are present to Him, if we have ever existed, we have always existed in some form to him.

But strange you should criticize us for believing that God will exalt us...

1Pe 5:6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:

[Phoenix]

[QUOTE=Phoenix;168677]Yes, I have seen God IN HIS HANDIWORK. I have seen my sons when they were newborns. I have seen a flower, and I have seen lives changed in ways no HUMAN could have made it happen.
you have seen God, you say? and God looks like a newborn and a flower ?

So then you don't believe that god is invisible, and it's impossible for anyone to see him?


Just because YOU jump to strange conclusions does not mean I should.
um, just because you worship and pray to something that looks like a flower, does not mean I should.

praying to flowers seems weird.
But then, you are a hater of mormons, :. . .aren't you? Such poor reasoning skills seem to come with that territory

[teenapenny]

[QUOTE=Christian;168914]
you have seen God, you say? and God looks like a newborn and a flower ?

So then you don't believe that god is invisible, and it's impossible for anyone to see him?


um, just because you worship and pray to something that looks like a flower, does not mean I should.

praying to flowers seems weird.
But then, you are a hater of mormons, :. . .aren't you? Such poor reasoning skills seem to come with that territory
You do not understand what was said. We also see God with our heart.

[Christian]

***uming the BoM is what it says it is, and understanding that LDS can reconcile that Isaiah verse quite easily and harmoniously with the BoM and LDS doctrine, what other reason would you give to not be aligned with the LDS faith?

From the Book of Abraham, Chapter 4 (highlighting mine):


1 And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth.

2 And the earth, after it was formed, was empty and desolate, because they had not formed anything but the earth; and darkness reigned upon the face of the deep, and the Spirit of the Gods was brooding upon the face of the waters.

3 And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light; and there was light.

4 And they (the Gods) comprehended the light, for it was bright; and they divided the light, or caused it to be divided, from the darkness.

5 And the Gods called the light Day, and the darkness they called Night. And it came to p*** that from the evening until morning they called night; and from the morning until the evening they called day; and this was the first, or the beginning, of that which they called day and night.

6 And the Gods also said: Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and it shall divide the waters from the waters.

7 And the Gods ordered the expanse, so that it divided the waters which were under the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so, even as they ordered.

8 And the Gods called the expanse, Heaven. And it came to p*** that it was from evening until morning that they called night; and it came to p*** that it was from morning until evening that they called day; and this was the second time that they called night and day.

9 And the Gods ordered, saying: Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the earth come up dry; and it was so as they ordered;

THE TRUTH REMAINS that there is only ONE REAL GOD EXTANT ANYWHERE according to the Bible (Isaiah 43:10, 44:9 etc etc etc) .

THE TRUTH remains that your mormon godlets are FALSE gods. . .making the religion that follows them a FALSE RELIGION..

[Christian]

[QUOTE=Christian;168914]
you have seen God, you say? and God looks like a newborn and a flower ?

So then you don't believe that god is invisible, and it's impossible for anyone to see him?


um, just because you worship and pray to something that looks like a flower, does not mean I should.

praying to flowers seems weird.
But then, you are a hater of mormons, :. . .aren't you? Such poor reasoning skills seem to come with that territory

You DO have a problem. . .I posted


Yes, I have seen God IN HIS HANDIWORK. I have seen my sons when they were newborns. I have seen a flower, and I have seen lives changed in ways no HUMAN could have made it happen.

If you have kids and have not 'seen God' in them at their birth, and if you 'have not seen God' in the lives of people HE HAS CHANGED, I pity you.

Do I do your imaginary 'worshiping or praying to something that looks like a flower' Of course not! I HOPE you are not stupid enough to think I said I did. You DO seem to have a sad 'logic-impairment' however. . .

And I pity for you, and pray for your soul.

[Christian]

[QUOTE]Originally Posted by Phoenix http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?p=168677#post168677)
Yes, I have seen God IN HIS HANDIWORK. I have seen my sons when they were newborns. I have seen a flower, and I have seen lives changed in ways no HUMAN could have made it happen.


you have seen God, you say? and God looks like a newborn and a flower ?

So then you don't believe that god is invisible, and it's impossible for anyone to see him?


um, just because you worship and pray to something that looks like a flower, does not mean I should.

praying to flowers seems weird.
But then, you are a hater of mormons, :. . .aren't you? Such poor reasoning skills seem to come with that territory

You DO have a problem. . .I posted


Yes, I have seen God IN HIS HANDIWORK. I have seen my sons when they were newborns. I have seen a flower, and I have seen lives changed in ways no HUMAN could have made it happen.

If you have kids and have not 'seen God' in them at their birth, and if you 'have not seen God' in the lives of people HE HAS CHANGED, I pity you.

Do I do your imaginary 'worshiping or praying to something that looks like a flower' Of course not! I HOPE you are not stupid enough to think I said I did. You DO seem to have a sad 'logic-impairment' however. . .

And I pity for you, and pray for your soul. Your pathetic attempt to 'twist my words' is a sorry excuse for 'reasoned discourse.'

[Christian]

[QUOTE]Originally Posted by Phoenix http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?p=168677#post168677)
Yes, I have seen God IN HIS HANDIWORK. I have seen my sons when they were newborns. I have seen a flower, and I have seen lives changed in ways no HUMAN could have made it happen.


you have seen God, you say? and God looks like a newborn and a flower ?

So then you don't believe that god is invisible, and it's impossible for anyone to see him?


um, just because you worship and pray to something that looks like a flower, does not mean I should.

praying to flowers seems weird.
But then, you are a hater of mormons, :. . .aren't you? Such poor reasoning skills seem to come with that territory

You DO have a problem. . .I posted


Yes, I have seen God IN HIS HANDIWORK. I have seen my sons when they were newborns. I have seen a flower, and I have seen lives changed in ways no HUMAN could have made it happen.

If you have kids and have not 'seen God' in them at their birth, and if you 'have not seen God' in the lives of people HE HAS CHANGED, I pity you.

Do I do your imaginary 'worshiping or praying to something that looks like a flower' Of course not! I HOPE you are not stupid enough to think I said I did. You DO seem to have a sad 'logic-impairment' however. . .

And I pity for you, and pray for your soul. Your pathetic attempt to 'twist my words' is a sorry excuse for 'reasoned discourse.'

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE=Phoenix;168954]

You DO have a problem. . .I posted



If you have kids and have not 'seen God' in them at their birth, and if you 'have not seen God' in the lives of people HE HAS CHANGED, I pity you.

Do I do your imaginary 'worshiping or praying to something that looks like a flower' Of course not! I HOPE you are not stupid enough to think I said I did. You DO seem to have a sad 'logic-impairment' however. . .

And I pity for you, and pray for your soul. Your pathetic attempt to 'twist my words' is a sorry excuse for 'reasoned discourse.'


And yet I thought you were the one arguing that a person cannot see God because he is invisible--and yet you argue you have seen him.

But on this, we can agree--we can see the nature of God all around us, who He is through His creations. God, who is all powerful, designed the family, man and woman to be one flesh. He designed that we procreate--that his creations in turn create.

So interesting then, that with this "seeing" that you say you see of God, that you would criticize me for believing in eternal marriage when God designed it. But have you ever asked yourself why God would create you, teach you to marry, command us to have children, and then sacrifice his Son to save and resurrect you--would then do the two most ungodly things of divorcing you and sterilizing your now perfected body? When did God ever become a God that divides and stops the creative process?

[Christian]

'big' posted"

And yet I thought you were the one arguing that a person cannot see God because he is invisible--and yet you argue you have seen him.
v
You cannot physically see God; HE IS invisible (the Bible that you don't believe says so). YOU CAN SEE HIS WORKS (which is what I was talking about so simply that even a moron could understand it.
Your little 'word games simply don't work, 'big.'

But on this, we can agree--we can see the nature of God all around us, who He is through His creations. God, who is all powerful, designed the family, man and woman to be one flesh. He designed that we procreate--that his creations in turn create.

'But joe smith said he saw Jesus, no he saw angels, no he saw the Father (invisible God) and his son 'jesus' physically in a 'clearing' in the woods. WHICH first vision story is the TRUTH? He doesn't seem to be able to remember his made-up stories straight!

So interesting then, that with this "seeing" that you say you see of God, that you would criticize me for believing in eternal marriage when God designed it.

Except the REAL GOD did NOT design it; joey smith made that junk up.

But have you ever asked yourself why God would create you, teach you to marry, command us to have children, and then sacrifice his Son to save and resurrect you--would then do the two most ungodly things of divorcing you and sterilizing your now perfected body?

Do you make this dung up as you go? Or is it just apart of your normal thinking?

When did God ever become a God that divides and stops the creative process?

On the Sabbath. On the Cross. THE BIBLE SAYS:

1 Cor 7:39
39 A wife is bound by law as long as her husband lives; but if her husband dies, she is at liberty to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.

Matt 22:25-30
Now there were with us seven brothers. The first died after he had married, and having no offspring, left his wife to his brother. 26 Likewise the second also, and the third, even to the seventh. 27 Last of all the woman died also. 28 Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her."


29 Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.
NKJV



Let's see now. . .the woman is no longer married to her first husband after he dies; she can remarry and not sin. And there are no marriages or married folks in heaven but all are LIKE ANGELS (there is NOT ONE "mr angel' or 'mrs angel' in the Bible ANYWHERE!

And Joey smith's made-up junk falls back into the toilet with the rest of his stuff. . .

[dberrie2000]

You cannot physically see God; HE IS invisible (the Bible that you don't believe says so).

This Bible?

Luke 24:39---King James Version (KJV)
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

So--you don't believe Jesus Christ is God?

Is God a resurrected man of flesh and bones?

[alanmolstad]

This Bible?

Luke 24:39---King James Version (KJV)
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

So--you don't believe Jesus Christ is God?

Is God a resurrected man of flesh and bones?

The answer is:
Jesus is both fully God,,,,therefore pure spirit , thus totally invisible, and fully human, thus flesh.


In his nature as God, he is pure spirit and therefore the equal of the father.

In his nature as human, he is flesh and has a body and all that come with the normal human being..



So having two totally different natures in the one person means that While we can say "Jesus is God" we should not confuse this to mean that the Father has a body of flesh, for that is not the teaching of the Bible...

[Christian]

This Bible?

Luke 24:39---King James Version (KJV)
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

So--you don't believe Jesus Christ is God?

Is God a resurrected man of flesh and bones?

The FATHER is not. NEITHER is the Holy Spirit. The SON of God IS. And yes, HE IS GOD TOO.

But Jesus is NOT a 'spirit-brother' of the demon satan as YOUR 'jesus' is.

[alanmolstad]

oh....and there is a reason Smith never let anyone else see the plates....there is a good reason...

They were fake.