What are the requirements to be a Christian? [Archive] - Page 2

glm1978

05-27-2011, 05:07 PM

BigJ this was a good thread until Sword highjacked it. I certainly hope this does not get deleted. BTW what LDS just got banned for participating in this thread?

Your comment is derogatory. This is an open forum and anyone can post on the threads. So if you don't want comments from others take it to PM. You have posted more on this thread than anyone .

John 1 NIV
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Hey are you, Erik, and the Sword roomates? It seems like you guys are taking turns at the computer.

First off regenerated IS born again or spiritual birth. According to verse 13 can a person "will" himself to be reborn?

The word is spelled roommates. I am neither Sword or Erik but if more than one person doesn't hold your view then we all must be attacking you, correct. Spiritual birth is a regeneration, on that you are correct, but Faith proceeds its. John 1:12-13 says Faith does come first. You posted the scripture and that is what it says so if you disagree with the scripture you need to take that up with God.

Billyray

05-27-2011, 05:12 PM

Your comment is derogatory. This is an open forum and anyone can post on the threads. So if you don't want comments from others take it to PM. You have posted more on this thread than anyone .

It does happen to be my thread. And I started it in response to being labeled a non Christian by both Jim and BigJ. Other than a short reply to BigJ about regeneration this thread had nothing to do with Calvinism. This was interjected by the Sword and now has completely derailed this thread.

alanmolstad

05-27-2011, 05:17 PM

you have to understand one thing about the christian faith...It is a faith of the simple common people.

If being a Christian was tricky, then none of us would be Christian.

If being a Christian was due to being able to p*** a theology test of doctrine?.....none of us would be a Christian.

The Christian faith is a faith that is easy to grasp...its simple..just believe and you ARE a Christian.

Billyray

05-27-2011, 05:21 PM

Spiritual birth is a regeneration, on that you are correct, but Faith proceeds its. John 1:12-13 says Faith does come first.
John 1
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Do you believe that you can "will" your regeneration?

BigJulie

05-27-2011, 05:25 PM

BigJ this was a good thread until Sword highjacked it. I certainly hope this does not get deleted. BTW what LDS just got banned for participating in this thread?

Well, BibleChristian just got banned. I have looked at the LDS who have gotten banned and their last posts and for the life of me, I cannot see what was so offensive that Jill felt to ban them--but her site, her choice.

Billyray

05-27-2011, 05:28 PM

Well, BibleChristian just got banned. I have looked at the LDS who have gotten banned and their last posts and for the life of me, I cannot see what was so offensive that Jill felt to ban them--but her site, her choice.
When I was on MADB board that happened to me on multiple occasions.

But I have a feeling that bibleChristian was a repeat LDS poster under a different name, but that is only a hunch on my part.

ErikErik

05-27-2011, 05:40 PM

It does happen to be my thread. And I started it in response to being labeled a non Christian by both Jim and BigJ. Other than a short reply to BigJ about regeneration this thread had nothing to do with Calvinism. This was interjected by the Sword and now has completely derailed this thread.

This may be your thread but its still an open forum. Although this thread does not have to do with Calvinism, your views concerning regeneration does. It would be remiss if Christians let you go unchecked trying to teach others this false belief. Billyray, get your KJV and look at the footnotes for John 1, 12,13. BELIEF comes first.

It really amazes me that others show you the scriptures that teaches faith precedes regeneration and you totally ignore that and keep harping about John1, 12,13 which doesn't say what you claim.

Go ahead and do your own thing Billy, but if you teach something that conflicts with the Bible we will confront it on the forum. I thought you were a christian, but your actions and understanding of what the scriptures actually does teach, seems to proves otherwise.

Billyray

05-27-2011, 05:47 PM

Billyray, get your KJV and look at the footnotes for John 1, 12,13. BELIEF comes first.

John 1
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Erik do you "will" yourself to be born again?

If you repent and place your faith in Christ then your regeneration IS based on your actions/works. i.e. you are willing yourself to be born again.

Billyray

05-27-2011, 05:49 PM

I thought you were a christian, but your actions and understanding of what the scriptures actually does teach, seems to proves otherwise.
so all Reformed Christians are not really Christians according to you?

Billyray

05-27-2011, 05:58 PM

Billyray, get your KJV and look at the footnotes for John 1, 12,13. BELIEF comes first.

ESV Study Bible
Born, not of blood … , but of God makes clear that neither physical birth nor ethnic descent nor human effort can make people children of God, but only God's supernatural work (8:41–47; cf. 3:16). This extends the possibility of becoming God's children to Gentiles and not just Jews (11:51–52; cf. 10:16). See also 3:3–8. To all … who believed … he gave the right indicates that saving faith precedes becoming members of God's family through adoption as his children.

The Bible Knowledge Commentary:
1:13. The new birth does not come by natural descent (lit., “of bloods”), nor is it the result of a human decision (lit., “the will of the flesh,” i.e., the natural human desire for children), nor is it the result of a husband’s will. The birth of a child of God is not a natural birth; it is a supernatural work of God in regeneration. A person welcomes Jesus and responds in faith and obedience to Him, but the mysterious work of the Holy Spirit is “the cause” of regeneration (3:5-8).

Billyray

05-27-2011, 06:05 PM

Billyray, get your KJV

Oh yea I forgot you are a KJV only guy.

ErikErik

05-27-2011, 06:10 PM

John 1
12:
13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Do you believe that you can "will" your regeneration?

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name

Some sincere Christians believe that the sinner is regenerated by receiving the Spirit "before" he believes. But Paul makes it clear that the receiving of the Spirit happens when the sinner believes.

Not of the will of the flesh means we are not saved through self-effort. Not of the will of man means not everyone will accept Christ.

But of God: when you become saved, you aren't given a new birth by parents or other people, but God Himself.

Faith is the means not the result. Nowhere does the Bible say that faith is created by regeneration. John 3::1-16 explains how God gives eternal life as a result of faith, not a requirement for faith. Eph 2:8 explains how it is through faith God made alive those who were dead in sins (Eph. 2:1-7). Regeneration is the result of receiving God’s eternal life, and that life is only available through faith (John 5:24; 20:31)

Billyray

05-27-2011, 06:13 PM

Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible (Complete)
Originally written in 1706, Matthew Henry's six volume Complete Commentary provides an exhaustive look at every verse in the Bible.

[John 1]
"It is not produced by the natural power of our own will. As it is not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, so neither is it of the will of man, which labours under a moral impotency of determining itself to that which is good; so that the principles of the divine life are not of our own planting, it is the grace of God that makes us willing to be his. Nor can human laws or writings prevail to sanctify and regenerate a soul; if they could, the new birth would be by the will of man. But, 2. Positively: it is of God. This new birth is owing to the word of God as the means (1 Pet. i. 23), and to the Spirit of God as the great and sole author. True believers are born of God, 1 John iii. 9; v. 1."

Erik I understand that you have a different point of view and I respect your view. You on the other hand do not respect my view.

Billyray

05-27-2011, 06:16 PM

Not of the will of man means not everyone will accept Christ.

That is not what that says Erik. It says that you are not born again based on your own will or actions.

Billyray

05-27-2011, 06:17 PM

we are not saved through self-effort.
Then how are you saved?

Billyray

05-27-2011, 06:19 PM

James Banta

05-27-2011, 07:14 PM

[QUOTE=James Banta;89212]

This is an evangelical site (not LDS) explaining the birthright. I hope it helps you to understand this stuff in a light that you can see and not be defensive about it.

http://www.bibletruthonline.com/birthrightpromisesABRAHAMtoEPHRAIM.htm

I see that and it is just what I have been saying in Judah is the promise of kingship. In Judah is the promise of the Messiah. Sounds like it is Judah that received the double portion of the birthright and not Joseph.. But then Joseph did receive a double portion of his father's property.. Even if holding the right of king over the people, isn't Jesus the best of the inheritances? Your insistence to be of the house of Joseph and therefore the people of the birthright has lost it's power I would say.. That promise to Jacob that through him all the world would be blessed in the best and most important promise made to him, Issac, and Abraham.. IHS jim

Billyray

05-27-2011, 08:29 PM

so conversion first and regeneration second.

Conversion = Faith and repentance

Regeneration = born again or spiritual life

So a person can be converted and thus saved but not regenerated?

When does a person enter into the Kingdom of God?

Billyray

05-27-2011, 10:10 PM

Conversion = Faith and Repentance = Salvation

Regeneration = spiritual birth (awakens the person spiritually)

Conversion and regeneration are distinct. Conversion is based on things that you do which is repent and place your faith in Christ. Regeneration is something God does to you by awakening you spiritually or being born again.

Conversion----->Salvation----->Regeneration (Arminian)

Regeneration---->Conversion----->Salvation (Reformed)

In the Arminian position a person is converted thus saved prior to regeneration. By definition a person repents and places his faith in Christ and this must precede regeneration even if by a second or less. Thus a person is saved but not born again even just for a moment. The Reformed position is that a person is regenerated then converted.

alanmolstad

05-28-2011, 07:20 AM

When does a man become a Christian?.....

It works out like this:
The man may have a different faith, or no faith at all.
The message of the Lord reaches the man and he listens.

This message sinks down into him about the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and what that means to people...

He believes in the resurrection....
Now in that moment he believes, at that instant, at that single heartbeat...... he is a Christian.

and yes, it may take the whole rest of his life to conform his life to the image of Christ.
But he is truly a Believer, he is truly a Christian, he is truly now and forever more, "saved".....

it's that easy to become a Christian.

alanmolstad

05-28-2011, 07:42 AM

Now that I have shown how easy it is to become a Christian, I think I should next talk about the many common questions some people have that are in outreach to the CULTs or have friends and family in a CULT.

Questions:
Can a Christian have extra books besides the bible they turn to for religious guidance? ....Yes....As long as the person does not turn away from the teaching of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

can a Christian believe in baptism for the dead?......Yes

Can a Christian have more than one wife?....yes

Can a christian hold to a teaching that there are still Apostles?...yes

Would a person who does not believe in drinking coffee or beer still be able to hold onto that idea and yet become a Christian?...yes

akaSeerone

05-28-2011, 07:47 AM

Now that I have shown how easy it is to become a Christian, I think I should next talk about the many common questions some people have that are in outreach to the CULTs or have friends and family in a CULT.

Questions:
Can a Christian have extra books besides the bible they turn to for religious guidance? ....Yes....As long as the person does not turn away from the teaching of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

can a Christian believe in baptism for the dead?......Yes

Can a Christian have more than one wife?....yes

Can a christian hold to a teaching that there are still Apostles?....yes

Would a person who does not believe in drinking coffee or beer still be able to hold onto that idea and yet become a Christian?....yesYou are going to have to do more than just say yes to your questions. You need to back up why with Bible.

Andy

alanmolstad

05-28-2011, 07:57 AM

You are going to have to do more than just say yes to your questions. You need to back up why with Bible.

Andy

the post's answers should be clear enough to anyone if they takes a moment and thinks it over....

Its like, can a man drive a car and be a Christian?...yes
Can a man be totally disgusted at his President and be a Christian?...yes
Can a man be against all countries fighting in any wars and be a Christian?...yes

The thing Im pointing to is that "acting" like a Christian, or "acting" not like a Christian is a moot point when talking about if a person actually "is' a christian.

The ONLY thing that makes a person a Christian is their faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

As long as the person does not mess with that single core Christian idea, they are Christian.

So all of the window dressing of a christian life, like being the husband of only one wife, or submitting to your government, speaking in tongues or having a good reputation are always going to be merely secondary to the only real important issue to a christian's salvation.....DO THEY BELIEVE IN THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS?

akaSeerone

05-28-2011, 08:14 AM

Nothing can be further from the Truth.

You have left out the part where Mormonism has tried to redefine the Bible and teach a Jesus and God that simply is not found in the Bible, so your rationalization is the flesh's meaningless attempt to sound Christian and is equal to Jesus saying to Peter get thee behind me Satan for you savorest the things of man, not of God.

Andy

BigJulie

05-28-2011, 08:33 AM

the post's answers should be clear enough to anyone if they takes a moment and thinks it over....

Its like, can a man drive a car and be a Christian?...yes
Can a man be totally disgusted at his President and be a Christian?...yes
Can a man be against all countries fighting in any wars and be a Christian?...yes

The thing Im pointing to is that "acting" like a Christian, or "acting" not like a Christian is a moot point when talking about if a person actually "is' a christian.

The ONLY thing that makes a person a Christian is their faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

As long as the person does not mess with that single core Christian idea, they are Christian.

So all of the window dressing of a christian life, like being the husband of only one wife, or submitting to your government, speaking in tongues or having a good reputation are always going to be merely secondary to the only real important issue to a christian's salvation.....DO THEY BELIEVE IN THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS?

I think this is how the world defines Christianity---I don't think it is necessarily how Christ defines Christianity. Abraham, Moses, and Joshua--I would define as part of Christ's church. And I look to the words of Christ and how he looks to the heart. I also understand that it is only God that understands truly what His spirit has shared and how those who have it have or have not acted upon it. As I said before, this question reminds me so much of the question "who is my neighbor?" because we want to put these guidelines on it that is not really ours to decide fully (just as the Pharisees wanted to define who was "in" and who was "out."---this is a judgement by God. And when push comes to shove, He will be the judge, not us. So, all we can do is observe what is and isn't Christian behavior. I ***ume that those who act in a Christian way are acting out of the goodness of God and those who do not, are not.

alanmolstad

05-28-2011, 08:48 AM

.....So, all we can do is observe what is and isn't Christian behavior. I ***ume that those who act in a Christian way are acting out of the goodness of God and those who do not, are not.

My point is that simply fails...

We can not define the term "Christian" by the manner we live like....
The only thing that we can use to define the term "Christian" is the faith of the person.
And of the things that a Christian has faith in, the most important (above all other things) is the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

There are millions if not Billions of people alive on the earth that are acting in a manner traditionally characterized as "Christian"....yet they are not Christian at all and could be of any faith or have no faith at all.

take a moment and listen to the ideas of a person who we honor by being on this forum http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdmIQkX7_no

Billyray

05-28-2011, 08:49 AM

I ***ume that those who act in a Christian way are acting out of the goodness of God and those who do not, are not.
BigJ you aren't a Christian because you do good works. If this were the case then anyone who does good works would be Christian. Atheists do good works. Muslims do good works. Mormons do good works.

Billyray

05-28-2011, 08:50 AM

alanmolstad

05-28-2011, 08:53 AM

Do you guys agree or disagree with the above post?

Its like watching two sides debate over what came first...the chicken or the egg?

ErikErik

05-28-2011, 08:59 AM

Bump for an Arminian response. Do you guys agree or disagree with the above post?

It has nothing to do with Calvinism or Arminianism, but what the word of God says. Christians must align themselves with the teaching of Scriptures and not of men. The Bereans didn't just take Paul or Silas's word, they searched the Scriptures. God provides sufficient grace to all; pleads with us ("come unto me" Matt. 11.28) so "If any... whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely" (John 7.37, Rev. 22.17). Man is not regenerated by doing something special but by believing the Lord Jesus as his Savior: "to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave the power to become children of God; who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1.12-13)

Regeneration is God making a person spiritually alive, a new creation, as a result of faith in Jesus Christ. Before salvation, we are degenerate. After salvation we are regenerated. Conversion is the outward manifestation of regeneration.

The attainment of the fullness of such conversion is by the gradual appreciation of truth, resulting not only from regeneration, and knowledge, but from spiritual illumination of the mind. This is why the born again Christian is able to understand Scripture.

The bottom line is that FAITH is the key for these things to take place. This is what God's word says.

Billyray

05-28-2011, 09:04 AM

Its like watching two sides debate over what came first...the chicken or the egg?

In a sense you are correct

Regeneration then conversion
Conversion then regeneration.

For the Arminian they elect themselves. They repent themselves. They develop faith themselves. Their salvation is based on their own works and actions. In essence they will their own regeneration by their actions. Am I wrong here?

Billyray

05-28-2011, 09:07 AM

Regeneration is God making a person spiritually alive, a new creation, as a result of faith in Jesus Christ.

Conversion (repentance and faith)----->Salvation----->Regeneration

Erik do you agree with the above formula?

ErikErik

05-28-2011, 09:10 AM

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet. 1.23,25). You are born-again (regenerated) through believing the gospel upon it being preached unto you; not regenerated until you believe.

This is the common denominator seen throughout the Scriptures. FAITH and BELIEF. We can try and define born again, spiritual rebirth, conversion, regeneration, etc, but it all begins with the word: BELIEVE.

As many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13.48). How were they ordained to believe? By God foreknowing their free-choice. This is how wonderful and loving God is. He calls all to repentance.

Billyray

05-28-2011, 09:10 AM

After salvation we are regenerated. Conversion is the outward manifestation of regeneration.

Conversion = Faith and repentance = Salvation

Regeneration = awakens the person spiritually

When is a person saved?

So which comes first conversion or regeneration? You said above conversion is after regeneration. But that is what I believe so you could not possibly believe that.

ErikErik

05-28-2011, 09:11 AM

Conversion (repentance and faith)----->Salvation----->Regeneration

Erik do you agree with the above formula?

I already told you what I believe.

ErikErik

05-28-2011, 09:12 AM

Billyray

05-28-2011, 09:13 AM

As many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13.48).

So who believed from YOUR scripture?

Billyray

05-28-2011, 09:15 AM

Billy, you are missing the whole point of spiritual rebirth/regeneration. It begins with hearing the word and then believing.

I believe you. But if you have read my posts you would already know that

Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is
1) election
2) predestination
3) gospel call
4) inward call
5) regeneration
6) conversion (faith & repentance)
7) justification
8) sanctification
9) glorification

Billyray

05-28-2011, 09:16 AM

Billy, you are missing the whole point of spiritual rebirth/regeneration.

Conversion = Faith and repentance = Salvation

Regeneration = awakens the person spiritually

When is a person saved?

Conversion----->Salvation----->Regeneration (Agree or disagree?)

Billyray

05-28-2011, 09:18 AM

I already told you what I believe.

No you didn't.

Conversion (repentance and faith)----->Salvation----->Regeneration

Erik do you agree with the above formula?

Billyray

05-28-2011, 09:26 AM

How were they ordained to believe? By God foreknowing their free-choice.

So you elected yourself and then God ratified your own election.

If you elect yourself. Repent yourself. Muster up the faith yourself. In essence saving yourself and causing your regeneration. Doesn't this give you room to boast?

alanmolstad

05-28-2011, 09:32 AM

In a sense.....

The Arminian/Calvin debate...
Its such a waste of time...

Its like listening to people talk about the logical steps a young man takes as he falls madly in love with a girl.

People are just people.

We are not programed like that guys...

We do not have a faith life that is able to be rendered to a numeric list ....as if the Christian teaching of Salvation can be read off like a pre-flight check list.

There is only one matter that is important, and compared to it the whole Arminian/Calvin debate becomes seen as little more than bothersome .

The resurrection of Jesus is why we are Christians...

Changing the meaning of the resurrection, changing the Jesus of the resurrection, or rejecting the resurrection's importance is why a person is not a Christian.

This forum section is about Mormons, and in that light I know that there are many issues that the Mormons teach that run counter to my own views.
But that does not mean anything...

You can be a Christian and have extra Canon.
You can be a Christian and have your own Apostles
You can be a Christian and have your own temple
You can be a Christian and have secret handshakes, secret names.

You can have all the the trimmings that you ***ociate with the Mormon church and still be Christian....as long as you return to the only central idea behind the Christian faith,,,,the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

If a person does not change who Jesus Christ is, If the person does not change the meaning of the Christian churches teachings about the death and resurrection of the true Jesus Christ of the bible....then there is room for many things that are at best debatable side-issues.

But change who Jesus Christ is?....Change the story of the resurrection?...and it dont matter what other what else a person has faith in....you are still not a Christian

Billyray

05-28-2011, 09:39 AM

The Arminian/Calvin debate...
Its such a waste of time...

Its like listening to people talk about the logical steps a young man takes as he falls madly in love with a girl.

And this thread was going along just fine speaking about requirements to be a Christian until Sword felt the need to derail it. Maybe Sword should of started a new thread?

alanmolstad

05-28-2011, 09:51 AM

And this thread was going along just fine .....

Now i have to go mow the gr*** for the next few hours....I hope when i return indoors and check this website I find many interesting posts and if Im lucky a few questions directed in my direction...

I would hate to see this topic cleared just because the same people had the same argument over the same issues that they have on all the other cleared topics....

(You would be surprised at how well the "Ignore" setting on this forum works to suppress people who break rules or are annoying)

alanmolstad

05-28-2011, 10:09 AM

This forum section is about Mormons, and in that light I know that there are many issues that the Mormons teach that run counter to my own views.
But that does not mean anything...

You can be a Christian and have extra Canon.
You can be a Christian and have your own Apostles
You can be a Christian and have your own temple
You can be a Christian and have secret handshakes, secret names.

You can have all the the trimmings that you ***ociate with the Mormon church and still be Christian....as long as you return to the only central idea behind the Christian faith,,,,the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

If a person does not change who Jesus Christ is, If the person does not change the meaning of the Christian churches teachings about the death and resurrection of the true Jesus Christ of the bible....then there is room for many things that are at best debatable side-issues.

But change who Jesus Christ is?....Change the story of the resurrection?...and it dont matter what other what else a person has faith in....you are still not a Christian

Sometimes I look at the church and i see there standing in the doorway a Christian that is proclaiming the message of his church loudly...

But as I draw closer I notice something else....

I cant tell if the guy is holding the door to his church open for others,,,or is busy shutting the door?

Billyray

05-28-2011, 10:45 AM

Christians must align themselves with the teaching of Scriptures and not of men

I couldn't agree with you more Erik.

Billyray

05-28-2011, 11:06 AM

You said you were regenerated first before conversion which includes faith. If regeneration precedes faith, then this would make faith unnecessary since the person would already be saved.

Sword this is a bogus argument that I could turn around on you. "Then this would make [regeneration] unnecessary since the person would already be saved".

Conversion (faith and repentance)---->Salvation----->Regeneration

(BTW you are not saved until AFTER conversion so you have my position wrong anyway)

Billyray

05-28-2011, 11:53 AM

I also understand that it is only God that understands truly what His spirit has shared and how those who have it have or have not acted upon it.

Do you believe that God unequally shares things with different people via his spirit? And isn't this unfair by LDS standards?

Billyray

05-28-2011, 02:10 PM

It would be remiss if Christians let you go unchecked trying to teach others this false belief

Then you would agree that it would be remiss for me to let you teach false doctrine. Agree?

BigJulie

05-28-2011, 02:25 PM

My point is that simply fails...

We can not define the term "Christian" by the manner we live like....
The only thing that we can use to define the term "Christian" is the faith of the person.
And of the things that a Christian has faith in, the most important (above all other things) is the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

There are millions if not Billions of people alive on the earth that are acting in a manner traditionally characterized as "Christian"....yet they are not Christian at all and could be of any faith or have no faith at all.

take a moment and listen to the ideas of a person who we honor by being on this forum http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdmIQkX7_no

Alan, I want you to step back and try to step out of your paradigm just a little. Let's take one example of one thing--let's say honesty or dishonesty. Now, most religions of the world teach that it is important to be honest, right? I want you to think about it. Where did that truth come from? I say that it came from God and that there is no other source for goodness. So, let's say that a person grows up in some part of the world, in some place in the world, at some time of the world in which they never learned of the resurrection of Jesus Christ--but they did learn about honesty. Now, this person can either choose to be honest or they can choose to be dishonest. I say that if they choose honesty, they are showing faith in Jesus Christ even though they have never heard of His name. They are acting on something good. So, how do I view that Christ would view them? I believe He would view them as someone acting on faith in Him. Like the parable of the talents--God does not judge harshly the one who had only been given two talents but does well with it. The only person He judges harshly is the one who, when given a talent, did nothing with it.

Also, I have discussed the parable of the two Sons. This parable also teaches this principle. So, my point? To act like we can discern who is the "in" crowd with God and who is the "out" crowd with God is futile. Only He knows what "talents" He has given in the way of spiritual knowledge and gifts and only He can decide if the person has been a good steward with them or not. So, to me, this question is the same as "who is my neighbor?" It speaks to a false belief that we can determine who is "in" or "out" by what they state they believe. Rather, like the Good Samaritan, God judges based on knowledge given and what the receiver does with it. In other words, I can state I believe all I want in the resurrection of Christ, but if I (like the son who chose to do nothing) act without faith, as Christ says "even the harlots and the publicans will enter the kingdom of God" before me.

I agree that your definition is how the world defines Christianity--those who profess a belief in the living Christ. Yet, I believe that how we, as the world defines it, is not necessarily reality in theway God judges a "Christian."

Billyray

05-28-2011, 02:47 PM

Now, most religions of the world teach that it is important to be honest, right? I want you to think about it. Where did that truth come from? I say that it came from God and that there is no other source for goodness.

God gives everyone a basic standard or internal comp***, see Romans 2. People who have never had the opportunity will be judged based on the knowledge that they had. What will happen to them I don't know. These type of people today are the exception to the rule. But this does not make them Christian even you would agree with that because you believe that these people will still need to accept Christ in the afterlife. What about all of the people who are living today who have heard about Christ and who do not have faith in Christ, yet they do good works are they Christian?

ErikErik

05-28-2011, 03:17 PM

And this thread was going along just fine speaking about requirements to be a Christian until Sword felt the need to derail it. Maybe Sword should of started a new thread?

Regeneration occurs because of the Spirit of God and the word of God just as it was in God’s calling through the preaching of the Gospel. Regeneration is a rebirth, to be re-generated. It points to the inward change that occurs in those who are saved. (John 3:7, 1 Peter 1:23, ***us 3:5) Did you notice that? You have to be saved before God can give you a new heart. That's what happens when we are born again. God works on changing our hearts.

Regeneration is possible because of the work of the Holy Spirit and occurs by the implanting of the word of God in the receptive heart (1 Peter 1:23,25)

A receptive heart. It does not say only the hearts of those people God had chosen from the foundation of the world to be saved. But ANY heart that is open to the gospel. Since the word of God is so important for regeneration, it is very important that there be constant exposure to the word of God. God's mercy is available to all men. Not all men will respond. Christ died for the world, NOT for some "elected" few.

The problem is you subscribe to the extreme Reformed faith which is Calvinism. The belief that God creates some people for heaven and creates the rest for hell without any hope whatsoever. Is that the kind of God you believe in? You say this is what election means and then you proceed to throw out some verses which you think support your claim, but this is not what election is.. This affects everything else such as regeneration and conversion. You say man has no free will whatsoever despite all the p***ages we have given you about God not wanting anyone to perish. For all to come to saving faith. We gave you the p***ages where it says one must have faith. One must believe. God does not regenerate any man who does not believe the gospel.

If scriptural teaching is what you call derailing your threads, then I am sorry you feel that way..

Billyray

05-28-2011, 03:23 PM

It points to the inward change that occurs in those who are saved. (John 3:7, 1 Peter 1:23, ***us 3:5) Did you notice that? You have to be saved before God can give you a new heart.

Conversion (repentance and faith)----->Salvation----->Regeneration

So you can be saved without being regenerated or born again. Agree?

Billyray

05-28-2011, 03:29 PM

Regeneration is possible because of the work of the Holy Spirit and occurs by the implanting of the word of God in the receptive heart

Wait a minute. You said regeneration takes place AFTER a person is saved not before. This seems to be a contradiction on your part.

Billyray

05-28-2011, 03:35 PM

It does not say only the hearts of those people God had chosen from the foundation of the world to be saved.

John 6
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

Here Jesus is speaking to a group that is following him, yet they do not believe. Jesus then tells then why they don't believe. Can you comment on these verses for me? (then we can move further down into Chapter 6)

ErikErik

05-28-2011, 03:36 PM

Conversion = Faith and repentance = Salvation

Regeneration = awakens the person spiritually

When is a person saved?

So which comes first conversion or regeneration? You said above conversion is after regeneration. But that is what I believe so you could not possibly believe that.

You said you were regenerated first, before you repented. Spiritual rebirth is the same as being born again and regenerated. We must have faith, believe and repent in order to be saved. Now if you believe you were regenerated before you had this faith and repented of your sins, then you weren't yet saved which means you were still dead in your sins. Still an unregenerate man. Regeneration does not happen before a person is saved. That person must first respond to the gospel, to the preaching of God's word. When we are saved, then God begins to work on our hearts.

What is the need for faith if you believe one is saved at the moment God regenerates a person prior to repenting?

The bottom line is that it doesn't really matter how one defines regeneration. But what does matter is that we must understand that man must choose to accept Christ God does not regenerate a person who's heart and mind is closed.

Billyray

05-28-2011, 03:37 PM

The belief that God creates some people for heaven and creates the rest for hell without any hope whatsoever

Erik do you believe that God knew exactly what you would do in life and where you will end up before he created the world?

ErikErik

05-28-2011, 03:38 PM

Wait a minute. You said regeneration takes place AFTER a person is saved not before. This seems to be a contradiction on your part.

No Billy I did not say that..Regeneration is the same thing as being born again.

ErikErik

05-28-2011, 03:40 PM

Conversion (repentance and faith)----->Salvation----->Regeneration

So you can be saved without being regenerated or born again. Agree?

No. Regeneration is spiritual rebirth.

Billyray

05-28-2011, 03:44 PM

You said you were regenerated first, before you repented.

Yes

Spiritual rebirth is the same as being born again and regenerated.

Yes

We must have faith, believe and repent in order to be saved.

Yes

Now if you believe you were regenerated before you had this faith and repented of your sins, then you weren't yet saved. . .

Correct. Salvation occurs after conversion.

Regeneration does not happen before a person is saved.

According to you.

What is the need for faith if you believe one is saved at the moment God regenerates a person prior to repenting?

I don't believe that one is saved until conversion.

The bottom line is that it doesn't really matter how one defines regeneration.

Then why this long post?

ErikErik

05-28-2011, 03:45 PM

John 6
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

Here Jesus is speaking to a group that is following him, yet they do not believe. Jesus then tells then why they don't believe. Can you comment on these verses for me? (then we can move further down into Chapter 6)

There you go again, trying to control the dialogue. You ignore every verse I give you, throw other verses at me and tell me to explain those verses and then you will take it from there. Sorry Billy, but if you aren't interested in the scriptures I share with you then its a waste of time.

Billyray

05-28-2011, 03:46 PM

No. Regeneration is spiritual rebirth.

Erik you didn't answer my question.

So you can be saved without being regenerated? Agree?

Billyray

05-28-2011, 03:47 PM

There you go again, trying to control the dialogue.
You told me that I am wrong. Give me a chance to show you why I believe the way I do.

John 6
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

Here Jesus is speaking to a group that is following him, yet they do not believe. Jesus then tells then why they don't believe. Can you comment on these verses for me? (then we can move further down into Chapter 6)

Billyray

05-28-2011, 03:48 PM

Sorry Billy, but if you aren't interested in the scriptures I share with you then its a waste of time.
You say that I am not interested in scripture when I just gave you a scripture to look at and refuse to explain it? Is that fair Erik?

ErikErik

05-28-2011, 03:49 PM

Yes

Yes

Yes

Correct. Salvation occurs after conversion.

According to you.

I don't believe that one is saved until conversion.

Then why this long post?

You still don't get it Billy. Let's try it again. If you were regenerated BEFORE you had faith and repented of your sins, then you were NOT regenerated. You were still a lost sinner.No different from any non christian. If one can be regenerated before being born again, then what need is there for faith? Regeneration means the same thing as being spiritually born again. But you weren't born again yet when you claimed God regenerated you because you hadn't yet repented and expressed new faith. Do you see now what is wrong with what you said?

ErikErik

05-28-2011, 03:51 PM

Erik you didn't answer my question.

So you can be saved without being regenerated? Agree?

I already said no. Why don't you read my posts? I'll say it again: regeneration and spiritual rebirth/being saved are the same thing.

Billyray

05-28-2011, 03:57 PM

John 3:7

Lets look at John 3

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind ****s wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

How is one born again according to these verses? Does it say that the way to be born again or spiritually regenerated is to have faith and repent then just after this you will be born again? No it does not. If this were the case then Jesus could of clearly stated this. But what did he say? "‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind ****s wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

This is where we differ. I believe this verse clearly teaches that a person is spiritually dead and can't even see Godly things because he is spiritually dead. Until God opens up our eyes via spiritual birth we will never make a choice for him. Once we are regenerated then we see clearly and make a choice for him via repentance and placing our faith in him at which point we are saved. You on the other hand believe that you were completely spiritually dead. You elected yourself. You mustered up the effort to repent. You conjured up your own faith resulting in you saving yourself this followed by regeneration.

Billyray

05-28-2011, 04:02 PM

You still don't get it Billy.

No I don't think you get it.

If you were regenerated BEFORE you had faith and repented of your sins, then you were NOT regenerated.

No I was regenerated but not converted. If you must you can go back to the chart. It might help you.

You were still a lost sinner.

I was regenerated but not converted. Salvation occurs after conversion.

If one can be regenerated before being born again, then what need is there for faith?

Faith is required for salvation at the time of conversion.

Regeneration means the same thing as being spiritually born again.

Right.

But you weren't born again yet when you claimed God regenerated

Born again is regeneration.

Billyray

05-28-2011, 04:04 PM

Conversion (repentance and faith)----->Salvation----->Regeneration

Are you saved by conversion or regeneration?

Billyray

05-28-2011, 04:07 PM

I already said no.
So you are not saved after conversion (faith and repentance)?

Billyray

05-28-2011, 04:08 PM

I'll say it again: regeneration and spiritual rebirth/being saved are the same thing.

Regeneration = spiritual birth = born again

Conversion = Faith and repentance = Salvation

Agree or disagree?

alanmolstad

05-28-2011, 04:20 PM

once again, Chicken or the egg?

its a pointless debate....

Billyray

05-28-2011, 04:22 PM

ErikErik

05-28-2011, 04:30 PM

You told me that I am wrong. Give me a chance to show you why I believe the way I do.

John 6
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

Here Jesus is speaking to a group that is following him, yet they do not believe. Jesus then tells then why they don't believe. Can you comment on these verses for me? (then we can move further down into Chapter 6)

Billy we had already discussed that p***age on another thread. You read "election" in these verses and no one can sway you. But Jesus said whoever comes to me, I will never drive away. Jesus said: "For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life." Read the entire chapter 6 of John.The Jews believed that by virtue of their national origin and religious works they were ***ured of a place in the Kingdom. This is not true. Because the Jewish mul***ude had an opportunity to believe in Christ but rejected Him, they were not the beneficiaries of His promise. Those who choose not to believe in Christ will be held responsible for that choice. In verse 64 Jesus said: But there are some of you who do not believe." Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe. It does NOT say he knew from the beginning who wasn't"elected" to be saved.

Billy do you believe the following?

Salvation by Grace Through Faith - God loves man enough, "in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us". Man's salvation / redemption was purchased by the Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary. Christ paid the sin debt for man by his vicarious death. Man's only obligation is to admit his helplessness in his sin nature, repent of his sins, and by faith trust solely in the finished work of the cross and the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. Salvation cannot be earned, it is the "gift of God" brought to man by grace and received by personal faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. ( Eph 2:8, 9; ***us 3:5; John 1:12; 3:14, 10:28, 29; Rom 8:1; Phil 1:6; II Pet 3:9; I John 2:2; I Cor.15: 1 -4; Rev 22:17)

These are the scriptures that conflict with your belief that God choose some for heaven and the remainder for hell.

Billyray

05-28-2011, 04:36 PM

But Jesus said whoever comes to me, I will never drive away.

Jesus was speaking to a specific group of people who were followers of him.

According to the following verses why didn't those who were following him believe?

6 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

Billyray

05-28-2011, 04:38 PM

It does NOT say he knew from the beginning who wasn't"elected" to be saved.

So when other verses in the Bible speak of election from the foundation of the world you don't believe those?

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.

ErikErik

05-28-2011, 04:40 PM

Erik this is your position as I see it

Prior to your conversion you were spiritually dead. Despite being spiritually dead you sought out God, you repented on your own, and you develop your own faith (conversion) leading to salvation BEFORE God has awakened your spirit. How is this possible? When a person is spiritually dead the things of God are foolishness to them. That is why BigJ et al don't understand things when your try and teach them because they are spiritually dead. Until God gives them spiritual life (awakens them spiritually) they will think that the things you are talking about are foolishness. Just ask BigJ what she thinks of the Trinity and I bet she will tell you that it is foolishness.

1 Corinthians 2
14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

You keep putting words in my mouth Billy. I did not seek out God. He knocks and calls and when one hears the preaching and is presented the Gospel, one then responds either in acceptance or rejection..Do you believe its foolishness that Jesus says anyone who comes to me I will never drive out? Do you think it foolishness that God wants everyone to repent? Is it foolishness that Christ died for all, not just some. This is what the Scripture teaches.

You act as if its too late for Julie. As long as she is still living its never too late. You are forgetting about prayers and the Holy Spirit. Each seed we plant to the lost can lead to illumination which gets brighter. This is why we must be very careful that we only teach what the Scriptures says.

Billyray

05-28-2011, 04:41 PM

Salvation by Grace Through Faith - God loves man enough, "in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us".

Yes

Man's salvation / redemption was purchased by the Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary.

Yes

Christ paid the sin debt for man by his vicarious death.

Yes

Man's only obligation is to admit his helplessness in his sin nature, repent of his sins, and by faith trust solely in the finished work of the cross and the resurrection of the Lord Jesus.

Yes

Salvation cannot be earned, it is the "gift of God" brought to man by grace and received by personal faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Yes.

These are the scriptures that conflict with your belief that God choose some for heaven and the remainder for hell.

How so?

Billyray

05-28-2011, 04:42 PM

Do you believe its foolishness that Jesus says anyone who comes to me I will never drive out?
Nope. Anyone who comes to Christ will not be driven out.

Billyray

05-28-2011, 04:44 PM

I did not seek out God. He knocks and calls
Bingo. He actively sought you out. And if he actively sought you out he will raise you up on the last day. Good news for you Erik.

John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."

Billyray

05-28-2011, 04:48 PM

You act as if its too late for Julie. As long as she is still living its never too late.

I never once said it was too late. I said that a person who is spiritually dead thinks the things of God are foolishness. When you present clear Christian principles (unlike the ones in the last few pages) she will not understand them and will think they are foolishness, just like I thought the things were foolishness when I was LDS. Until God awakens a person's spirit they just can't see. That is what we have been talking about all along with regeneration. Spiritually dead people can't see or hear the truth.

Billyray

05-28-2011, 04:49 PM

This is why we must be very careful that we only teach what the Scriptures says.
I agree with you 100%. Does that mean you are coming aboard?

Billyray

05-28-2011, 05:09 PM

It points to the inward change that occurs in those who are saved. (John 3:7, 1 Peter 1:23, ***us 3:5)

We already looked at John 3. Now lets look at 1 Peter 1:23

1 Peter 1:23 (New American Standard Bible)
23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

You said "It points to the inward change that occurs in those who are saved."

It says that in this verse? Can you point out where exactly?

Conversion = Faith and repentance = Salvation

Regeneration = Spiritual awakening

When is a person saved? After conversion or after regeneration?

Billyray

05-28-2011, 05:14 PM

You also brought up ***us 3:5

***us 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

So God saved us NOT based on our deeds. Don't you think that repentance and placing our faith in Christ is a deed that we have done?

I see this verse as supporting my position not a verse that I would of thought that you would pick out. God save me. I did not save myself based on my own actions.

Billyray

05-28-2011, 06:36 PM

You act as if its too late for Julie.

I agree Erik it is never too late. But let me give you another example to illustrate my point that those who are spiritually dead can't see the things of God. It is obvious to both of us that in order to be a Christian you need to have faith in Christ. Seems obvious enough right? But BigJ has said that you can be a Christian WITHOUT having faith in Christ. Here is my challenge to you. See if you can convince her of this obvious truth. Use powerful arguments, use the scriptures, use whatever you wish and see how far you get.

alanmolstad

05-28-2011, 08:41 PM

The only requirement to be a Christian is to have faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

some1you_know

05-28-2011, 09:05 PM

To me born again refers to baptism--when one has been washed clean and given the gift of the Holy Ghost. This occurs when they are taught the gospel and seek for themselves to know the truthfullness of it. Once they have a witness from the Holy Ghost, then they keep the commandment to "repent and be baptized"--once again by choice. Once baptized, they are now "clean" and are prepared to receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost. This gift starts the "regeneration" process as you call it or the perfecting process. Those who continue on this path are santified.

Do you agree BibleChristian? :D:D

Julie- most LDS kids are baptized when they are 8. I am sure there are exceptions, but do you really think most eight year olds are seeking truthfulness for themselves, or are they doing what they think will please their parents and caregivers?

TheSword99

05-29-2011, 03:57 AM

The only requirement to be a Christian is to have faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

That's not what Walter Martin said in the video. You left out the rest of it.

A Christian in the NT is somebody who believed that Jesus Christ was the Messiah of Israel and the Savior of the WORLD. That he was incarnate Deity.That he died on the cross in the place of our sins; that his blood was atonement for our sins; that he rose bodily from the grave and ascended to heaven; and that he will come again to judge the living and the dead.

TheSword99

05-29-2011, 04:00 AM

Nope. Anyone who comes to Christ will not be driven out.

No one can come to Christ. God does it all. Is this your view?

TheSword99

05-29-2011, 04:47 AM

Jesus was speaking to a specific group of people who were followers of him.

According to the following verses why didn't those who were following him believe?

6 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men. ***us 2:11

God's salvation is available to ALL men. Not all men want it. This ****s everything you claim out of the water, doesn't it.

First of all, you don't understand what regeneration is. Its the same as being born again. Now please explain to us how you were born again (regenerated) while you were still lds and a lost sinner and hadn't even confessed nor had faith in the true gospel of Christ? New birth CANNOT precede faith. I agree with Eric that you had some illumination due to hearing the word, through exposure of the Truth which you may have been reading or hearing. God never hardens an open heart. Your heart must have been receptive. Nowhere in the scriptures do we read that God forces anyone to follow him or believe in Jesus Christ. What does the NT say every time someone asks how to be saved? Its always BELIEVE, isn't it. Believe with the heart and confess with the mouth that Jesus is Lord. Nowhere do any of the apostles ever say God does it it all. If you are the elect, you're in. If God hasn't chosen you, you're doomed, even if you cry out to Him! That's Calvin's false teaching!

No one is saying the Reformed church is not a christian church. But some of John Calvin's teachings are NOT scriptural. Limited grace or limited atonement is NOT Biblical. His teaching on Predestination is NOT scriptural.

The bible teaches that before the foundation of the world, God elected to save those, and only those, who believe. Thus our election is conditioned upon our faith. Those who believe make up the group of people whom the Bible refers to as the elect or chosen of God. And because God is all knowing, He foreknew those who would believe. We have been, as Peter writes, “chosen according to the foreknowledge of God” (1 Pet. 1:1-2,). This view is the only one that is consistent with all of Scripture,

As for your p***age in John 6, there is always a crucial point where Christ is believed or rejected. Here, it is His testimony to the Jews as having come from heaven. Today, its the offer of salvation to the Gentiles (Acts 22:21-23). The crisis often comes in the acceptance or rejection of the resurrection (Acts 17:32). Whatever the crisis, it must be dealt with for the person to come to Christ.

alanmolstad

05-29-2011, 05:12 AM

That's not what Walter Martin said in the video. You left out the rest of it.

.

no I didnt

The deal is this:
....as long as you don't change who Christ is...
....as long as you don't change what the resurrection is....
Then there is no problem with all the other things that the Mormons got added to their religion.

All the rest of the Mormon stuff is just window dressing...(the temple, the handshakes, the undies, the many wives, the BOM etc)...all meaningless in the end.

It is only the resurrection of Jesus Christ that makes us what we call "christian"

NOTHING ELSE!

There is no other set of things you must believe in to be saved or be called a christian.
There is no other "Good News" that you have to believe in.

( FYI - When it comes to the Calvinist-Arminian debate, a Christian does NOT have to take a position on it and pick a side.)

All you have to do is not screw with the Bible's teaching of who Christ is....and what the resurrection is, and you will be fine.

The moment you believe in Jesus you are saved.
Its a done deal...
Its a completed journey from death into Life.

The moment you believe in the resurrection you have already p***ed from death to life.
You are as "saved" as you are ever going to get...
You cant get more saved.

The point of what Im saying is that many Mormons, (or all of em perhaps?) have a lot of family connections and personal affection for many of the things that are different in Mormonism.
They love the songs, they love the friends and family they have in Mormonism, they love the trappings of their church.
My response is that all that stuff is just window dressing, if it means a lot to you? fine you can hang onto it if you want....its not important....

All that stuff is not concerned with the question of being a true "Christian" or not?

All that is important is that the Mormons have changed their ideas about the resurrection of Jesus Christ and that is the only real issue with their salvation.

The Mormons teach a different Jesus
The Mormons teach a different resurrection.
That is where the problem is....

all the rest of the stuff that separates the Mormons from the Christian is window dressing,,,,,its simple additions that are well within the freedom of the christian church to debate and disagree over...

So I'm not interested in the debate over if this or that Mormon leader predicted a date that failed.....its not important.

I'm not interested in showing a Mormon that his church used to be as racist (as much other white churches from that same time and place).....its not important.

I'm not interested in showing a Mormon that the Book of Mormon has a questionable source....its not important.

The only thing important is that the Mormon church and it's leadership have strayed away from the truth Jesus Christ....they have walked away from the only core teaching the christian church has....that being the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

So I tell the Mormon that they can continue worshiping where they want I dont care.
I dont care if they want to always worship at the local Mormon church,
the Utah Mormon temple,
outside under a tree,
or underground in a catacomb....thats not important..

The only thing I do care about is "who" they worship....and "what" did that person whom they worship do?

That the Salvation of the Christian is due only to the faith we have in the resurrection of the truth one-and-only Jesus Christ.

TheSword99

05-29-2011, 05:12 AM

No I don't think you get it.

No I was regenerated but not converted. If you must you can go back to the chart. It might help you.

I was regenerated but not converted. Salvation occurs after conversion.

Faith is required for salvation at the time of conversion.

Right.

Born again is regeneration.

You know Billy, its always the cults, or those who teach false doctrines that believe only certain people can be saved. The mormons believe only those who believe their gospel will be saved. The same with the JWs. Calvin taught a false doctrine that only those God created for heaven will be saved. The rest are out of luck.

That's not what the Bible teaches. God would love for everyone to be saved. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish , but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." (John 3:16-17) God would love to save the world, but He is not going to force it upon us. It is something we have to choose for ourselves. God wants a relationship with us, but not one where he has to force us into it. Jesus offers us a pardon but He is not going to make us take it.The Bible says that "as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name." (John 1:12) You have to receive it for yourself. So what is it that you have to do in order to be saved, in order to spend eternity with God in heaven? "Behold , I stand at the door, and knock : if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." (Rev 3:20) All that we have to do is open our hearts to him and believe that what he did he did for us and that is all that is required.

TheSword99

05-29-2011, 05:17 AM

no I didnt

The deal is this:
....as long as you dont change who Christ is...
....as long as you dont change what the resurrection is....

Then there is no problem with all the other things that the Mormons got added to their religion.

all the rest is just window dressing...(the temple, the handshakes, the undies, the many wives, the BOM etc)...all meaningless in the end.

It is only the resurrection of Jesus Chriust that makes us what we call "christian"

NOTHING ELSE!

There is no other set of things you must believe in to be saved or be called a christian.
There is no other "Good News" that you have to believe in.

When it comes to the Calvinist-Arminian debate, a Christian does NOT have to take a position of it and pick a side.

All you have to do is not screw with the Bible's teaching of who Christ is....and what the resurrectino is, and you will be fine.

The moment you believe in Jesus you are saved.
Its a done deal...
Its a completed journey from death into Life.

The moment you believe in the resurrection you have already p***ed from death to life.
You are as "saved" as you are ever going to get...
You cant get more saved.

The point of what im saying is that many Moromos, (or all of em perhaps) have a lot of family connections and personal affection for many of the things that are different in Mormonism.
The love the songs, they love the friends and family they have in Mormonism, they love the trappings of their church.
My responce is that all that stuff is just window dressing.....its not important....
All that stuff is not concerned with the question of being a christina or not?

All that is important is that the Mormons have changed their ideas about the resurrection of jesus Christ and thats the only real issue with their salvation.

The Mormons teach a different jesus
The Mormons teach a different resurrection.

that is where the problem is....

all the rest of the stuff that separates the Momrons from the Christian is window dressing,,,,,its simple additions that are well within the freedom of the christian church to debate and disagree over...

So Im not interested in the debate over if this or that Mormon leader predicted a date that failed.....its not important.

Im not interested in showing a Mormon that his church used to be as racist as other white -only churches.....its not important.

Im not interested in showing a Mormon that the Book of Mormon has a questionable source....its not important.

the only thing important is that the Mormon church and it's leadership have strayed away from the truth Jesus christ....they have walked away from the only core teaching the christian church has....that being the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

So I tell the Mormon that they can continue worshiping where they want I dont care.
I dont care if its the local Mormon church,
the Utah Mormon temple,
outside under a tree,
or underground in a catacomb....thats not important..
The only thing I do care about is "who" they worship....and "what" did that person whom they worship do?

That the Salvation of the Christian is due only to the faith we have in the resurrection of the truth one-and-only Jesus Christ.

Alan, I gave you the rest of what Walter Martin said in the video link you posted earlier. Go back and watch it again. He told us what a true Christian is:

A Christian in the NT is somebody who believed that Jesus Christ was the Messiah of Israel and the Savior of the WORLD. That he was incarnate Deity.That he died on the cross in the place of our sins; that his blood was atonement for our sins; that he rose bodily from the grave and ascended to heaven; and that he will come again to judge the living and the dead.

BTW, what site did you cut and paste from?

alanmolstad

05-29-2011, 05:34 AM

Julie- most LDS kids are baptized when they are 8. I am sure there are exceptions, but do you really think most eight year olds are seeking truthfulness for themselves, or are they doing what they think will please their parents and caregivers?

One of the things we tend to do, is look down at the young and consider their views on everything as being lesser in God's eyes than our own.

We watch children going up to the front of the church to read a verse, or play a part in a Christmas pageant, and we might think to ourselves, "Them kids don't know what they are saying...they cant appreciate the depth of this"

But I hope we try to also always remember that God is a God of the child too....

God is there with that child every day as the child got ready to walk in front of the church.

And when asked by the adults who was the greatest in the kingdom, Jesus took a small child and put that child in the middle of the men he was talking to and said this small child was the example of greatness in the kingdom.

Im a lot older now that I was when I first walked in front of the church doing something with my Sunday school cl***. But is the Love I have for God any more pure and pleasing to God now than it was back then?....I doubt it.

alanmolstad

05-29-2011, 05:40 AM

BTW, what site did you cut and paste from?
Again, the central core idea expressed my Walter Martin is about ONLY the resurrection of Jesus Christ...that is alone and the ONLY thing he is talking about that makes us Christian.

If you don't see that fact?...better go listen again.....its there.

as for how did I find that link?....I did a GOOGLE search.

Here is the results of another GOOGLE search - http://www.godonthe.net/evidence/rom10_9.htm

This is what im pointing to as being the reason and the way we become Christian....

alanmolstad

05-29-2011, 05:49 AM

A Christian in the NT is somebody who believed that Jesus Christ was the Messiah of Israel and the Savior of the WORLD. That he was incarnate Deity.That he died on the cross in the place of our sins; that his blood was atonement for our sins; that he rose bodily from the grave and ascended to heaven; and that he will come again to judge the living and the dead.

Now read what I said......

"The deal is this:
....as long as you don't change who Christ is...
....as long as you don't change what the resurrection is....
Then there is no problem with all the other things that the Mormons got added to their religion.

All you have to do is not screw with the Bible's teaching of who Christ is....and what the resurrection is, and you will be fine.
"

You are seeking to find errors in my posts that are not there...
I have posted the core teaching of the Christian church as clearly as I can....I dont know what else i could say to make this more simple to understand.

so at this point it falls to the reader of my words to make the effort or not to get out of it what i put there to get out ...or not....

TheSword99

05-29-2011, 05:59 AM

Now read what I said......

"The deal is this:
....as long as you don't change who Christ is...
....as long as you don't change what the resurrection is....
Then there is no problem with all the other things that the Mormons got added to their religion.

All you have to do is not screw with the Bible's teaching of who Christ is....and what the resurrection is, and you will be fine.
"

You are seeking to find errors in my posts that are not there...
I have posted the core teaching of the Christian church as clearly as I can....I dont know what else i could say to make this more simple to understand.

so at this point it falls to the reader of my words to make the effort or not to get out of it what i put there to get out ...or not....

I'm not sure why you wrote all that or where you cut and pasted from. So you think that belief in the Resurrection is the ONLY requirement in order to be a Christian? What about repentance? What about confessing that Christ is Lord? What about accepting His blood sacrifice? Do any of those things matter?

TheSword99

05-29-2011, 06:06 AM

Now read what I said......

[B][I][COLOR="Red"]"The deal is this:
....as long as you don't change who Christ is...
....as long as you don't change what the resurrection is....
Then there is no problem with all the other things that the Mormons got added to their religion.

..

So its ok for mormons to believe in a pantheon of gods? Its ok that they teach that God was once a man? Its ok that they teach men can become gods? Its ok that works are necessary for salvation? Its ok that they have other books which contradict what the bible teaches?

In other words, Alan, Mormonism is fine as long as they believe in Jesus Christ and acknowledge that he was resurrected? We can just disregard all the other false doctrines?

alanmolstad

05-29-2011, 06:10 AM

I'm not sure why you wrote all that or where you cut and pasted from?....

What?

my post?

I wrote it.
The whole thing from start to finish is just something i wrote off the top of my head this morning when i felt in the mood to write a longer post.

I felt at the time that this topic went WAY , WAY, off-track there for a while, and so i wanted to reintroduce the concept of the christian teaching about how to be a "christian" and also address many concerns a Mormon might have about seeing the truth of this central Christian doctrine and what it would mean to their Mormon faith....

However i did use the dots "..." and that might give the reader that I was quoting something when actually.....um....I just like the way the dots "..." look on my screen.

Sorry if it was the dots "..." that gave you the idea that i was doing a copy/paste thingy...

I NEVER do that copy/paste stuff, I find it a sign of a lazy poster....

alanmolstad

05-29-2011, 06:15 AM

So you think that belief in the Resurrection is the ONLY requirement in order to be a Christian? ......

The only reason we are Christian is not that we feel sorry for our errors....

The only reason we are Christian is not because we believe that Jesus died.....

The only reason we are Christians is not because we want to try to lead a more moral life...

Rather, its the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

If a person has all kinds of screwed up views about God and the world, yet still believe in the true Jesus Christ of the Bible and in His resurrection, he is still saved.

He is still a "Christian"

For he has responded to the one true "light" we are given to be saved.

alanmolstad

05-29-2011, 06:21 AM

In other words, Alan, Mormonism is fine as long as they believe in Jesus Christ and acknowledge that he was resurrected? We can just disregard all the other false doctrines?

its like Im talking and my voice hits the wind and thats it...no effect...nothing lasts...nothing changes at all....

I can only say again what i have said before.
That the only thing that makes us Christian is the resurrection of Jesus christ.

The true resurrection of the true Jesus Christ.
...Not the Jesus of Islam...not the Jesus of Buddhism....not the Jesus of the atheist.....not the Jesus of the Mormons or the Jehovah's Witnesses, not the Jesus of the any other source but the Bible....

The ONLY thing, the only requirement to being a Christian is to believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

alanmolstad

05-29-2011, 06:27 AM

remember, we are not called "Christian" because we are "monotheists"
For there are also many other religions that are monotheist.

We are not called "Christian" because we don't believe God evolved...for there are many other religions that also hold that god did not evolve too.

we are not called "Christians" because we dont believe we will become little gods one day. for there are many other religions that also teach that men do not become gods...

so why are we "christian"?

We are Christian because we believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

TheSword99

05-29-2011, 06:47 AM

What?

my post?

I wrote it.
The whole thing from start to finish is just something i wrote off the top of my head this morning when i felt in the mood to write a longer post.

I felt at the time that this topic went WAY , WAY, off-track there for a while, and so i wanted to reintroduce the concept of the christian teaching about how to be a "christian" and also address many concerns a Mormon might have about seeing the truth of this central Christian doctrine and what it would mean to their Mormon faith....

However i did use the dots "..." and that might give the reader that I was quoting something when actually.....um....I just like the way the dots "..." look on my screen.

Sorry if it was the dots "..." that gave you the idea that i was doing a copy/paste thingy...

I NEVER do that copy/paste stuff, I find it a sign of a lazy poster....

Interesting post Alan and yes I agree we were off track in not discussing Mormonism on this and a few other threads. However, when a Christian is trying to teach others, the Holy Bible must be our sole standard for truth since God is the only source for Truth. We can get into trouble when we throw out a verse here and a verse there to try and make our case., We need to make sure that what we believe is completely scriptural. If one is going to preach about regeneration or being born again, then one needs to know what the whole bible teaches on it. Sometimes unsound doctrines float around on these forums and someone calls it out and it temporally "derails" the thread. But it is necessary to correct errors. Its not attacking the person, but its taking a stand for God's word.

God will regenerate anyone who believes in Jesus and make that person His child. Anyone can receive Christ by believing in His name, and as many as do, God gives them the right to become His children. Thus, believing in Christ comes before regeneration. It is very important that those who are reading this forum understand this.

Although unregenerate people are dead in their sins, numerous scriptures tell us spiritually dead people can choose to humble themselves and repent, especially while they are under the influence of the gracious drawing of God’s Spirit. God’s drawing, however, never forces anyone to repent, nor does it change anyone’s will apart from the consent of his heart. This is the Holy Bible teaches.

alanmolstad

05-29-2011, 07:01 AM

alanmolstad

05-29-2011, 07:25 AM

The deal is this:
....as long as you don't change who Christ is...
....as long as you don't change what the resurrection is....
Then there is no problem with all the other things that the Mormons got added to their religion.

All the rest of the Mormon stuff is just window dressing...(the temple, the handshakes, the undies, the many wives, the BOM etc)...all meaningless in the end.

It is only the resurrection of Jesus Christ that makes us what we call "christian"

NOTHING ELSE!

There is no other set of things you must believe in to be saved or be called a christian.
There is no other "Good News" that you have to believe in.

( FYI - When it comes to the Calvinist-Arminian debate, a Christian does NOT have to take a position on it and pick a side.)

All you have to do is not screw with the Bible's teaching of who Christ is....and what the resurrection is, and you will be fine.

The moment you believe in Jesus you are saved.
Its a done deal...
Its a completed journey from death into Life.

The moment you believe in the resurrection you have already p***ed from death to life.
You are as "saved" as you are ever going to get...
You cant get more saved.

The point of what Im saying is that many Mormons, (or all of em perhaps?) have a lot of family connections and personal affection for many of the things that are different in Mormonism.
They love the songs, they love the friends and family they have in Mormonism, they love the trappings of their church.
My response is that all that stuff is just window dressing, if it means a lot to you? fine you can hang onto it if you want....its not important....

All that stuff is not concerned with the question of being a true "Christian" or not?

All that is important is that the Mormons have changed their ideas about the resurrection of Jesus Christ and that is the only real issue with their salvation.

The Mormons teach a different Jesus
The Mormons teach a different resurrection.
That is where the problem is....

all the rest of the stuff that separates the Mormons from the Christian is window dressing,,,,,its simple additions that are well within the freedom of the christian church to debate and disagree over...

So I'm not interested in the debate over if this or that Mormon leader predicted a date that failed.....its not important.

I'm not interested in showing a Mormon that his church used to be as racist (as much other white churches from that same time and place).....its not important.

I'm not interested in showing a Mormon that the Book of Mormon has a questionable source....its not important.

The only thing important is that the Mormon church and it's leadership have strayed away from the truth Jesus Christ....they have walked away from the only core teaching the christian church has....that being the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

So I tell the Mormon that they can continue worshiping where they want I dont care.
I dont care if they want to always worship at the local Mormon church,
the Utah Mormon temple,
outside under a tree,
or underground in a catacomb....thats not important..

The only thing I do care about is "who" they worship....and "what" did that person whom they worship do?

That the Salvation of the Christian is due only to the faith we have in the resurrection of the truth one-and-only Jesus Christ.

Now take another run at reading my address of this issue, and see if this time you don't find much agreement with it's statement about the simple faith that makes us all Christians

TheSword99

05-29-2011, 07:26 AM

the way I look at Mormons...

They have fallen into a shaft, and are stuck down there.
I can drop a rope down to them.
The rope is the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

yes, when they climb out they may be a bit dusty...But there will be a time later to dust off the remains of other Mormon teachings that still cling to them.

but there are safe.
They are saved, they are out of danger.

yes, they may still have a totally screwed up idea about God and the nature of the universe and Mormon history, but thats all side-issues...all just window dressings...they are things that can come and go or not,..,.I dont care.

The only important thing is that the Mormon has found the true resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Thats all that matters....for in finding that they have life.

Although the resurrection is very important, Christ's atonement on the cross made possible the remission of sins.. However, we cannot exclude the importance of repentance and saving faith.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is this: .that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time..."

1 Cor. 15:2-6

Billyray

05-29-2011, 07:37 AM

No one can come to Christ. God does it all. Is this your view?
A person who is spiritually dead will never seek out Christ on his own unless spiritually awakened. Regeneration is the work of God which is followed by conversion (faith and repentance) done by the person.

BigJulie

05-29-2011, 07:39 AM

The only reason we are Christian is not that we feel sorry for our errors....

The only reason we are Christian is not because we believe that Jesus died.....

The only reason we are Christians is not because we want to try to lead a more moral life...

Rather, its the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

If a person has all kinds of screwed up views about God and the world, yet still believe in the true Jesus Christ of the Bible and in His resurrection, he is still saved.

He is still a "Christian"

For he has responded to the one true "light" we are given to be saved.

Alan, can I tell you my viewpoint on this from a mother? If my kids didn't think anything I said mattered, only that I am their mother, I would have a hard time with it.

Let's say I tell my children to eat healthy and I even cook a good meal for them, but they pick and choose off their plate and then head off to Taco Bell.

Then I tell them to head to bed early and get enough sleep, but they stay up playing video games instead and sleep in.

Then I tell them to work hard in school, but instead they ditch cl*** and go hang out with their friends instead and I have to hound them to do their homework which if they do, they don't bother to turn in.

Then I tell them to love their siblings and not to fight, but they tease each other and pick on each other.

Then Mother's Day rolls around and they tell me how much they love me and honor me and they are so glad I am their mother.

I know I love them and I know they believe they love me---but my heart is aching. Personally, I would rather that they eat well, sleep well, work hard in school and love each other than to shower their praises at me. Because by their actions, I would know that they trust and love me.

Your definition of a Christian reminds me much of the same. If we believe that all that is necessary to be a Christian is to believe that Christ died and was resurrected, we miss believing Christ Himself and what He said. And just like the mother, I am sure His heart aches if we think we are "saved" by this standard.

alanmolstad

05-29-2011, 07:42 AM

However, we cannot exclude the importance of repentance and saving faith.

We are not saved just because we feel remorse at past sins...
We are not saved because we repent of our sins and want to do better next time.
For the whole world is filled with religions that teach about how deal with guilt and how to do better next time.

But we are free of sin's effect because we believe in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

That's it.
That's enough.

This means that the whole rest of the bible except for the story of the Resurrection of Christ could be a lie, and it would not matter, we still would have a valid true faith and a valid way to seek salvation.

this means also the opposite, that if the story of the resurrection of Christ is a myth, then it does not matter that the whole rest of the bible is true or not. We would be without hope, and we still would die in our sins....

Billyray

05-29-2011, 07:46 AM

First of all, you don't understand what regeneration is. Its the same as being born again.

Regeneration is born again. I have said this repeatedly. We obviously have a different understanding of regeneration. I have told you what I think it is now you tell me what you think it is.

alanmolstad

05-29-2011, 07:51 AM

Alan, can I tell you my viewpoint on this from a mother? .

where sin abounds, grace all the more abounds....
Does a mother love her child only when it is sleeping quietly?

or.....

Does a mother prove her worth the most when her child is sick, when her child is hear broken, when her child needs forgiveness the most?

The point of what Im saying is that there is a lot of different points where I disagree strongly with the Mormon church on its teachings.
There is a list a mile long of the issues I have with the official Mormon teachings that I believe are in error.

Yet I also have to keep one more thing in mind at all times....

That being that all these disagreements I have are the window dressings and are not all that important.

and that the only important matter is the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.
I am a Christian because i believe in the resurrection.
take away all the other things i believe in, but leave me my view of the resurrection and Im still a saved Christian.

Billyray

05-29-2011, 07:57 AM

God's salvation is available to ALL men. Not all men want it.

You are right. People who are spiritually dead do not want anything to do with God. No one seeks after God, no not one. Now care to at least address the verses?

John 6
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day."

According to these verses why didn't those who were following Christ believe?

BigJulie

05-29-2011, 07:59 AM

where sin abounds, grace all the more abounds....
Does a mother love her child only when it is sleeping quietly?

or.....

Does a mother prove her worth the most when her child is sick, when her child is hear broken, when her child needs forgiveness the most?

The point of what Im saying is that there is a lot of different points where I disagree strongly with the Mormon church on its teachings.
There is a list a mile long of the issues I have with the official Mormon teachings that I believe are in error.

Yet I also have to keep one more thing in mind at all times....

That being that all these disagreements I have are the window dressings and are not all that important.

and that the only important matter is the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.
I am a Christian because i believe in the resurrection.
take away all the other things i believe in, but leave me my view of the resurrection and Im still a saved Christian.

A mother loves her child even when they are acting out and being terrible--I basically said that--she will keep working and trying. But we can ***ume that Christ is the ultimate Christian. The problem I have is that we are using this discussion to focus on a set of beliefs or even on Christ's behavior, but we are ignoring our own or what it is to be a Christian. You are Christian because you believe in the resurrection, I believe I am Christian because I LOVE Christ. And if we love Christ, we love each other and stop trying to decide who is "in" with Christ and who is "out" with Christ. And to those who profess to believe in Christ but do not show the love of Christ, I say, that is not Christian.

alanmolstad

05-29-2011, 07:59 AM

....... If we believe that all that is necessary to be a Christian is to believe that Christ died and was resurrected, .......

You stand at the door of your faith.
You are either opening it up wide , or you are shutting it tight.

Its hard to tell sometimes what a person is doing....

The decision depends a lot on the type of faith your church is pushing.
if its a faith of rules and secrets, and hidden knowledge?...then you got to watch who tries to open the door of your church....

There are Christians that make all kinds of rules for new Christians to follow....they put up all kinds of hurtles that must be overcome in their path...they put one road block in front of another as the person walks to their Lord.

They do so, and then pat themselves on the back for keeping the riff-raff out.

Im just saying that the only thing that actually matters to being a Christian, the only thing that actually matters to God, is if a person has faith in the resurrection of His Son or not?

Nothing else is equal to this question.
Fail it, and nothing else you do correct in your life matters.

Billyray

05-29-2011, 08:01 AM

New birth CANNOT precede faith.
Conversion = Faith and repentance

Regeneration = spiritual awakening

These are distinct en***ies.

When is a person saved? After conversion or after regeneration?

Billyray

05-29-2011, 08:04 AM

You know Billy, its always the cults, or those who teach false doctrines that believe only certain people can be saved.

So will you officially go on record stating that ALL those who hold to the Reformed position are a cult and not true Christians?

alanmolstad

05-29-2011, 08:06 AM

The problem I have is that we are using this discussion to focus on a set of beliefs or even on Christ's behavior, ......
Yes, this is what I hope to point out to you.

My being saved is not the result of my feelings of Love of God....nor my feelings of love to my fellow man.

My being saved is not dependent on my acting in a nice way, nor am i kept saved because i didn't break any Old test commandments today.

Im not saved due to any ability I have to do or say the right thing during the day.

Im not saved because I was able to p*** a written test on doctrine.

Why am I saved?
Im saved only because I profess faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ...

BigJulie

05-29-2011, 08:06 AM

You stand at the door of your faith.
You are either opening it up wide , or you are shutting it tight.

Its hard to tell sometimes what a person is doing....

The decision depends a lot on the type of faith your church is pushing.
if its a faith of rules and secrets, and hidden knowledge?...then you got to watch who tries to open the door of your church....

There are Christians that make all kinds of rules for new Christians to follow....they put up all kinds of hurtles that must be overcome in their path...they put one road block in front of another as the person walks to their Lord.

They do so, and then pat themselves on the back for keeping the riff-raff out.

Im just saying that the only thing that actually matters to being a Christian, the only thing that actually matters to God, is if a person has faith in the resurrection of His Son or not?

Nothing else is equal to this question.
Fail it, and nothing else you do correct in your life matters.

Okay, Alan, I believe in the resurrection of Christ. I believe in it so strongly, that on my death-bed (had a near death experience) I was at peace.

All of these rules you see--all these "road blocks"--they are not road blocks--they are the same type of things I tell my children that I know will make them happy. Some would say I am the meanest mom around--making my kids eat their vegetables, making them clean the house, telling them when it is time to go to bed and giving consequences when they don't listen to me. I don't do this because I want to make their lives miserable or make it hard for them to love me, I do it because I know ultimately what will make them happy. Of course, they always have agency as to whether to listen to me or not.

Alan, you perceive my religion in a way that is not so. You have stereotyped me and my beliefs. If you want to know how I feel about it or what it is like, you can ask me.

BigJulie

05-29-2011, 08:09 AM

Yes, this is what I hope to point out to you.

My being saved is not the result of my feelings of Love of God....nor my feelings of love to my fellow man.

My being saved is not dependent on my acting in a nice way, nor am i kept saved because i didn't break any Old test commandments today.

Im not saved due to any ability I have to do or say the right thing during the day.

Im not saved because I was able to p*** a written test on doctrine.

Why am I saved?
Im saved only because I profess faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ...

And to think that Mormons think differently is to stereotype us. I also believe that without the atonement (and resurrection) of Christ, anything I do is futile. While that has been said numerous times on this thread by numerous Mormons, it appears that those who left the church either never got that, or have bought into some stereotyped belief out there as to what Mormons believe.

Billyray

05-29-2011, 08:13 AM

Bible says that "as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name." (John 1:12)

John 1
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Don't forget verse 13 which tells who those were who received him in verse 12. Those who received him were NOT born of the will of the flesh and NOT born of the will of man, but of God. Yet you believe that by your own will you sought out God and by your own will you repented and by your own will you placed your faith in God.

alanmolstad

05-29-2011, 08:15 AM

When is a person saved?

a person is saved the moment after they believe that the truth that Jesus of the Bible was resurrected and thereby gave life to they who believe in this resurrection.

Faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ ...
Not faith in the resurrection of a false Christ that is taught in the world of the CULTS, but only the true Jesus as revealed in the Holy Bible.

Yes, there are other Jesus that are taught in other religions.
Yes they use all the same words as what we Christians also use.
But the effect of their words is to end up with a different christ, a different resurrection...and thereby a false hope

Billyray

05-29-2011, 08:17 AM

So what is it that you have to do in order to be saved, in order to spend eternity with God in heaven?
Be converted which is repentance and placing your faith in Christ.

alanmolstad

05-29-2011, 08:21 AM

So will you officially go on record stating that ALL those who hold to the Reformed position are a cult and not true Christians?

Why dont you start a non-Mormon topic on this question?

I think it would be nice to take the whole "reformed" issue to it's own setting where people could feel free to comment and not worry that they have totally strayed away from talking about a Mormon issue in the Mormon section

Billyray

05-29-2011, 08:27 AM

Why dont you start a non-Mormon topic on this question?

I think it would be nice to take the whole "reformed" issue to it's own setting where people could feel free to comment and not worry that they have totally strayed away from talking about a Mormon issue in the Mormon section

Alan this is carryover from a previous thread that I started which got deleted. For the record other than a brief reply to BigJ about regeneration this topic was never brought up, until of course Sword brought it up.

alanmolstad

05-29-2011, 08:33 AM

Alan this is carryover from a previous thread.....
Then it's rude, impolite, and totally out of place here.

There is no justification for the posts I see by pointing to the other guy and saying - "But he started it"

Simply and with much humility , ask Sword to join you in a free and open discussion of the issue in its own setting on this forum.

This shows respect for the way Jill has clearly let us all know she wants things to run on her site.
We are just guests here.
We sit at her table and should be thankful for the chance.

Take it outside...
Doing different shows a lack of respect for her.

I would like to click on the "NEW POSTS" and see a new topic aimed at your and Sword/Erik's little issue very soon.....

Billyray

05-29-2011, 08:38 AM

Then it's rude, impolite, and totally out of place here.

Alan you are probably right, even though I am the one who started this thread. I was simply telling you why this thread got derailed.

BigJulie

05-29-2011, 08:40 AM

Then it's rude, impolite, and totally out of place here.

There is no justification for the posts I see by pointing to the other guy and saying - "But he started it"

Simply and with much humility , ask Sword to join you in a free and open discussion of the issue in its own setting on this forum.

This shows respect for the way Jill has clearly let us all know she wants things to run on her site.
We are just guests here.
We sit at her table and should be thankful for the chance.

Take it outside...
Doing different shows a lack of respect for her.

Why should Jill have any rules? Doesn't she love us? Isn't believing she is a good person enough? :) Isn't she just creating a "road block" to a good discussion? ;)

alanmolstad

05-29-2011, 08:42 AM

Alan you are probably right, ....
Go start a topic on the issue, state your case there in support of your views.
...I will drag Sword over there if I have to...LOL

Billyray

05-29-2011, 08:45 AM

...I will drag Sword over there if I have to...LOL

Erik and Sword do not think you are I are Christian and they feel it is their mission in life to correct us. All of the years on these boards I have not experienced this behavior from fellow Christians.

alanmolstad

05-29-2011, 08:48 AM

Why should Jill have any rules?

Actually, if you have noticed, she really only has one rule that keeps her the most busy...

#1 - stay on topic.

we all fail at this....(yes Im the most guilty too)
We all know better.

But Billy and Sword are going on and on and their little conversation overwhelmed the one we all were having with you about the main issue of this topic got totally pushed under the rug.....

I cant even remember what I was saying.....
as for as remembering what you were saying?...forget it, you are going to have to start all over...:o

I wrote a post today , this very morning, that was about as good as i can write,,,
I got a lot of good questions about it, and things were going alone fine....

and then?.............

BigJulie

05-29-2011, 08:58 AM

Actually, if you have noticed, she really only has one rule that keeps her the most busy...

#1 - stay on topic.

we all fail at this....(yes Im the most guilty too)
We all know better.

But Billy and Sword are going on and on and their little conversation overwhelmed the one we all were having with you about the main issue of this topic got totally pushed under the rug.....

I cant even remember what I was saying.....
as for as remembering what you were saying?...forget it, you are going to have to start all over...:o

I wrote a post today , this very morning, that was about as good as i can write,,,
I got a lot of good questions about it, and things were going alone fine....

and then?.............

We were discussing what it means to be a "Christian"--although, Billyray likes to put in in terms of "requirements."

Jill actually has a few more rules than that. I think it can be agreed, without a few rules or laws to go by, our universe, governments, etc. would be chaos.

I think this little back and forth argument (or the way in which they were going at it) was unChristian. What about you, do you agree? Or because they both believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ, the way they treat each other is a mute point? Which do you believe?

And do you think that through their debates they can come up with the truth or does the truth lie with God and God alone and they need to turn to Him to know the truth as both have valid points via the scriptures?

Billyray

05-29-2011, 09:00 AM

We were discussing what it means to be a "Christian"--although, Billyray likes to put in in terms of "requirements."

Is it a requirement to have faith in Christ to be a Christian?

TheSword99

05-29-2011, 09:01 AM

We are not saved just because we feel remorse at past sins...
We are not saved because we repent of our sins and want to do better next time.
For the whole world is filled with religions that teach about how deal with guilt and how to do better next time.

But we are free of sin's effect because we believe in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

That's it.
That's enough.

This means that the whole rest of the bible except for the story of the Resurrection of Christ could be a lie, and it would not matter, we still would have a valid true faith and a valid way to seek salvation.

this means also the opposite, that if the story of the resurrection of Christ is a myth, then it does not matter that the whole rest of the bible is true or not. We would be without hope, and we still would die in our sins....

Alan, are you saying that realizing we are lost sinners, repenting of our sins and believing in Christ's atonement and trusting in nothing else doesn't save a person?

Do you believe any parts of the bible is a lie?

BigJulie

05-29-2011, 09:01 AM

Is it a requirement to have faith in Christ to be a Christian?

Billyray--you need to work this out what you believe with Sword and Erik--I will continue my discussion with Alan.

alanmolstad

05-29-2011, 09:03 AM

Do you believe any parts of the bible is a lie?

Im saying that as long as the story of the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ is true, then it does not matter squat if the whole rest of the Bible is a lie.......

any questions on this?

Billyray

05-29-2011, 09:03 AM

Billyray--you need to work this out what you believe with Sword and Erik--I will continue my discussion with Alan.

Actually my question was for you, not Sword or Erik

Is it a requirement to have faith in Christ to be a Christian?

Billyray

05-29-2011, 09:04 AM

Do you believe any parts of the bible is a lie?

Do you believe John 6?

TheSword99

05-29-2011, 09:06 AM

Erik and Sword do not think you are I are Christian and they feel it is their mission in life to correct us. All of the years on these boards I have not experienced this behavior from fellow Christians.

Billy can you please refrain from personal accusations. It would be nice. I know its hard to be corrected from the Scriptures, but you have yet to give us the references that says the lost cannot come to Christ. Since regeneration is the same thing as being born again. we are dead in our sins until we come to the Cross on bended knee and humble ourselves and seek mercy and forgiveness. You cannot be born again before you are regenerate since they are one and the same thing. Belief in Christ must come first. Therefore when we come to Christ we come as unregenerate seeking the new birth.

Billyray

05-29-2011, 09:07 AM

Billy can you please refrain from personal accusations. It would be nice.

You are the one who called the Reformed position a cult. Remember?

BigJulie

05-29-2011, 09:08 AM

Well, Alan, you three seem to be wrapped up in trying to decide what you believe it means to be "Christian"---so, I think I will let the three of you have at it. Suffice it to say, I still believe that it is our LOVE of God that makes a Christian and that can be seen as we FOLLOW the Spirit.

Have a nice day. :)

Billyray

05-29-2011, 09:08 AM

I know its hard to be corrected from the Scriptures, but you have yet to give us the references that says the lost cannot come to Christ.

Why didn't you respond to the verses in John 6?

Billyray

05-29-2011, 09:09 AM

Since regeneration is the same thing as being born again.

How many time are you going to repeat yourself. I agree that regeneration is born again.

Billyray

05-29-2011, 09:10 AM

You cannot be born again before you are regenerate since they are one and the same thing.

Define

1. Conversion

2. Regeneration/born again

alanmolstad

05-29-2011, 09:14 AM

Alan, are you saying that realizing we are lost sinners, repenting of our sins and believing in Christ's atonement and trusting in nothing else doesn't save a person?

sword, there are many ways to discribe the Christian idea of the lone importance of believeing in the resurrection.

perhaps your ways as listed above are just your means to discribe the very things Im talking about...i dont know, you decide that.

But I can speak about what i have writen this morning when i address this topics issue in connection to the Mormon Church.

In Mormonism I notice a LOT of things i disagree with...
Lots of things.
Tons of issues.
a m***ive room for improvement in the Mormon church in my view.

and...yet, when I think about each issue, Im not convinced that proving them wrong in that area will make them "Christian"

So I asked myself this question:
"What would make a person a Christian?"

The answer i came to was so simple,...and yet it carries a depth of meaning that can take a lifetime to understand fully.

The answer is "To believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ"

Now Im not just saying that you believe in the dry historical fact that a dead Jesus came back to life, for Im sure even the demons know that has happened.

Rather to believe in the resurrection of Jesus means you believe in its work...you believe in its effect...you believe in its ability to change all you are to what god seeks you to be.

You believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ
Not the Jesus of the Mormon church (brother of Lucifer)
Not the Jesus of the JWs ( the created angel aka Michael)
Not the Jesus of Islam (Thats another issue trust me)
But only the one and only Jesus Christ of the bible.

so that is the core of the Christian faith, to believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Nothing else make us christian

Billyray

05-29-2011, 09:15 AM

Suffice it to say, I still believe that it is our LOVE of God that makes a Christian and that can be seen as we FOLLOW the Spirit.

Thus your believe that faith in Christ is NOT required. This is false BigJ.

TheSword99

05-29-2011, 09:15 AM

Do you believe John 6?

I believe the entire Bible is the word of God. What I disagree with is your interpretation. You read these verses through the lens of Calvinism. God does not predestine some for heaven and the rest for ****ation. What he does predestine is that those who choose Christ, receive all the benefits that God had ordained from the foundation of the world for them to receive. We become the "elect" after we become Christians. This is when we are adopted as God's children.

Man does have a choice and this is why men will be held accountable at the Judgment.

I marvel that you ignore every single p***age that says: believe in me, believe in the Lord Jesus. if you are thirsty, come, If you are hungry, come. If you call on the name of Christ he will in no wise cast you out. If you seek me I can be found. He knocks waiting for us to answer.

God is not wanting any to perish Billy. What do YOU do with that verse?

alanmolstad

05-29-2011, 09:17 AM

Well, Alan, ....

not catching us , nor our manners at our best...thats clear...

as is my embarr***ment that I was unable to point my younger brothers to the door.

TheSword99

05-29-2011, 09:18 AM

Define

1. Conversion

2. Regeneration/born again

We have defined it for you over and over Billy. And yet you ask the same things over and over because you do not like the answers.

Billyray

05-29-2011, 09:18 AM

I believe the entire Bible is the word of God.
Then you should have not trouble talking about John 6. Your position does not allow you to accept that chapter so you must run to other verses to support your position.

Billyray

05-29-2011, 09:19 AM

We have defined it for you over and over Billy.
You have absolutely not defined it. That is why I have asked you over and over again. Maybe if you define it we can understand each other's position a little bit better.

Define

1. Conversion

2. Regeneration/born again

Billyray

05-29-2011, 09:21 AM

God does not predestine some for heaven and the rest for ****ation.

Do you believe that God knew everything that you would do and where you would end up BEFORE creating the world?

TheSword99

05-29-2011, 09:24 AM

Why didn't you respond to the verses in John 6?

Because its been discussed already and you didn't like every biblical answer we give. You know Billy, I have been googling Calvinism and Reformed Theology for the past few days and they give the same p***ages you do for proof text. Then I read all the refutations and what the Bible as a WHOLE teaches about regeneration, etc. I'm sorry, Billy, but Calvin was wrong concerning Predestination and limited grace/atonement. If one buys into this entire teaching, then one will not see the errors of it until the Holy Spirit reveals it.

Billyray

05-29-2011, 09:27 AM

Because its been discussed already and you didn't like every biblical answer we give.

How did you explain the verses in John 6 using the verses in John 6? You didn't. You ran to other verses for support.

Bottom line Sword, as I have said many times before, there are verses that support your position and there are verses that support my position. I respect your position but you do not respect my position and you have even called me a cult member for my position. You are making this personal. And I will persist as long as you do.

Billyray

05-29-2011, 09:30 AM

If one buys into this entire teaching, then one will not see the errors of it until the Holy Spirit reveals it.

Again your arrogance rears it's ugly head. You think you are right and the Reformed position is wrong. You are not even trying to see my position because you are too busy telling me I am wrong.

alanmolstad

05-29-2011, 09:56 AM

Again your arrogance ...... .

settle down kids.....

alanmolstad

05-29-2011, 10:20 AM

You have absolutely not defined it.

see this is why i keep asking Sword/Billy to take this topic asde to its own area.

The fact is,,,,Sword actually did define his terms, and did so with some clear wording... (Post 414)
Now I may not agree with his understanding, but I can see when he makes a real attempt to define his terms and he has, and he did so good enough to move the conversation on to other issues.

But the fact that we are still getting to read a request to define the same terms over and over means that this topic is more or less , doomed.

Take it to a non-Mormon setting guys, and enjoy yourselves without interruption.
heck I will even buzz over to see who seems to have the most ammo in his arguments?

Billyray

05-29-2011, 10:27 AM

The fact is,,,,Sword actually did define his terms, and did so with some clear wording... (Post 414)

Here is post 414 he did not define the terms. He said regeneration and born again are the same thing, and I agree. I have always stated that born again = regeneration.

. . .Since regeneration is the same thing as being born again. we are dead in our sins until we come to the Cross on bended knee and humble ourselves and seek mercy and forgiveness. You cannot be born again before you are regenerate since they are one and the same thing. Belief in Christ must come first. Therefore when we come to Christ we come as unregenerate seeking the new birth.
Define

1. Conversion

2. Regeneration/born again

alanmolstad

05-29-2011, 10:32 AM

you know.....try as i might, there actually is only one thing i can do....well two things really.

i can :
#1 - suggest other ways to go

#2 - I can put people on my IGNORE LIST and block them from ever being able to appear on my computer screen again.

I like to use way number #1 because its easy and allows the conversations in the future to go on.
But I always keep #2 on-deck in case he has to pinch-hit

ErikErik

05-29-2011, 11:10 AM

Here is post 414 he did not define the terms. He said regeneration and born again are the same thing, and I agree. I have always stated that born again = regeneration.

Define

1. Conversion

2. Regeneration/born again

We have done that. We gave you the scriptures. You have had several Christians on here try to tell you that you are mistaken. Why is it you refuse to heed what we say and at least seriously consider all that we have shared with you.You keep saying that you agree that regeneration means the same thing as born again. However, you claimed that you were regenerated before you had believed in the true gospel and repented. You were still lds. You were still unsaved, Billy. One must BELIEVE and REPENT before he can be born again Therefore you were not regenerated yet. You had not yet come to the Cross.

When we are born again, God begins to change us from the inside. These changes are signs of our conversion. Peace, love for others, a new heart, etc. These are signs of conversion. Of one's spiritual rebirth.

Billy, here's a verse I want you to look up: Galatians 4:16. Paul is speaking to his friends. We too are speaking to you as friends and fellow Christians.

Billyray

05-29-2011, 11:28 AM

One must BELIEVE and REPENT before he can be born again Therefore you were not regenerated yet. You had not yet come to the Cross.

Please define the terms for me. Thus for you have not. Trust me I do have a point which I will show you after you give me your definitions.

Define

Conversion

Regeneration

alanmolstad

05-29-2011, 11:30 AM

oh,,so we want to step up the game I see?
call my post a bluff are you?

very well...Final warning Billy....

Billyray

05-29-2011, 02:32 PM

One must BELIEVE and REPENT before he can be born again

What verse are you using that says your must be saved BEFORE you are born again?

Russianwolfe

05-29-2011, 02:43 PM

And if we love Christ, we love each other and stop trying to decide who is "in" with Christ and who is "out" with Christ.

Amen.

Marvin

dfoJC

05-29-2011, 03:09 PM

Billyray

05-29-2011, 03:27 PM

. . . sin nature. . .No man can rid himself of that nature, it is a work of the Holy Spirit. . .Rebirth is the work of the Holy Spirit. We don't initiate that work, He does.

Agree 100%.

Billyray

05-29-2011, 05:17 PM

When we are born again, God begins to change us from the inside. These changes are signs of our conversion.
After initial regeneration/conversion (or conversion/regeneration as you state) are lives become more and more Christlike over time which is called sanctification.

ErikErik

05-30-2011, 05:01 AM

I mentioned several thousand posts ago that to be a Christian one must be born again. This is the basic and profound tenet of Christianity.

I do not see that "belief in the resurrection" would make someone a Christian. For someone could believe that and remain in "sin."

To be a Christian, a fundamental change must take place. Jesus told Nicodemus it was obligatory to be born again, thus He used the word "must."

So, where does that leave us? If you remain in the sin nature you were born in, then you are not a christian. Pay very close attention here. No man can rid himself of that nature, it is a work of the Holy Spirit! Not water baptism can rid us of that nature. Not obeying the 10 commandments can rid us of that nature, not reading the Bible, praying or any of that can rid us of the sin nature. And to be a Christian, you must be rid of that sin nature, otherwise you remain apart from God.

The "old" must p*** away, so that we can be made new. This is what
Christianity is all about! Rebirth is the work of the Holy Spirit. We don't initiate that work, He does.

Look at what II CO 5:17-18 says; "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation, old things have p***ed away; behold all things have become new. Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their tresp***es to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation."

Salvation is a powerful thing. For it changes the essence of who we were, and makes us into a whole new man.

So, to put it another way to be labeled "Christian" one must have been made new, the old has to go, for we cannot be "little Christ's" as long as the old nature resides in us.

This is my last 2 cents on the subject, I hope it helps those who read it.

blessings,
dfoJC

I agree. dfoJC, thanks for your post. I have always found your posts to be consistent with the Scriptures.

On this thread we received lots of different answers. One said belief in the Resurrection is the only requirement. This is false. Others have said they were regenerated before they were spiritually born again and then in the next sentence said that regeneration and rebirth are one and the same thing.

Without the Holy Bible as our guide, we will not be consistent and end up having some false beliefs. I do not say this to be unkind.

It is the work of the Holy Spirit who prompts and convicts sinners. I totally agree with you. Head knowledge does not make one a Christian. It has to be a heart conviction. In order to have a heart conviction, one must have true faith. This faith is more than merely believing. Those who claimed to have been a Christian and then ended up joining a cult or not believing anymore, had only head knowledge. Because if they truly BELIEVED in the Gospel and the true Messiah, They would have been born again, adopted into the family of God and receive eternal life.

One thing I did notice that was missing from your post (although I know you will agree that it is important for salvation) is that you made no mention of the necessity of belief. One must believe on the Lord Jesus. If it were all God's doing and man only needs to sit back, then faith would be unnecessary. The Holy Spirit provides Illumination through the preaching of the scriptures. Faith comes by the hearing of the word. The next step is our response to that preaching. Throughout the NT whenever anyone asked what must I do to be saved, they were never told: "You can't do anything. Just sit back and let God do it all." Nor did the apostles ever say: If you were elected before the foundation of the world, you will be saved no matter what you do. But if God chose you for hell, sorry you are doomed and have nothing to say about it." This was the erroneous teaching of Augustine and Calvin. The Bible tells us that Jesus Christ died for the WORLD, not just for some.

What the Scriptures DOES teach is that one must BELIEVE in Jesus Christ and confess with the mouth that He is Lord and Savior. This is a requirement for spiritual rebirth. I capitalized the word believe because it is more than mere belief, for even the devil believes and trembles. its a conviction of the heart and not the head.

I agree with you dfoJC, nothing more needs to said. I pray the lds reading this thread will receive some illumination and respond to the promptings of the Holy Spirit by giving their life to Jesus and make Him their Savior and not their church or their works.

Billyray

05-30-2011, 06:04 AM

Erik were you saved after you were converted (faith and repentance)?

Billyray

05-30-2011, 07:27 AM

Erik how does one who is spiritually dead in sins and tresp***es save himself by repenting and placing his faith in Christ?

dfoJC

05-30-2011, 10:21 AM

I agree. dfoJC, thanks for your post. I have always found your posts to be consistent with the Scriptures.

On this thread we received lots of different answers. One said belief in the Resurrection is the only requirement. This is false. Others have said they were regenerated before they were spiritually born again and then in the next sentence said that regeneration and rebirth are one and the same thing.

Without the Holy Bible as our guide, we will not be consistent and end up having some false beliefs. I do not say this to be unkind.

It is the work of the Holy Spirit who prompts and convicts sinners. I totally agree with you. Head knowledge does not make one a Christian. It has to be a heart conviction. In order to have a heart conviction, one must have true faith. This faith is more than merely believing. Those who claimed to have been a Christian and then ended up joining a cult or not believing anymore, had only head knowledge. Because if they truly BELIEVED in the Gospel and the true Messiah, They would have been born again, adopted into the family of God and receive eternal life.

One thing I did notice that was missing from your post (although I know you will agree that it is important for salvation) is that you made no mention of the necessity of belief. One must believe on the Lord Jesus. If it were all God's doing and man only needs to sit back, then faith would be unnecessary. The Holy Spirit provides Illumination through the preaching of the scriptures. Faith comes by the hearing of the word. The next step is our response to that preaching. Throughout the NT whenever anyone asked what must I do to be saved, they were never told: "You can't do anything. Just sit back and let God do it all." Nor did the apostles ever say: If you were elected before the foundation of the world, you will be saved no matter what you do. But if God chose you for hell, sorry you are doomed and have nothing to say about it." This was the erroneous teaching of Augustine and Calvin. The Bible tells us that Jesus Christ died for the WORLD, not just for some.

What the Scriptures DOES teach is that one must BELIEVE in Jesus Christ and confess with the mouth that He is Lord and Savior. This is a requirement for spiritual rebirth. I capitalized the word believe because it is more than mere belief, for even the devil believes and trembles. its a conviction of the heart and not the head.

I agree with you dfoJC, nothing more needs to said. I pray the lds reading this thread will receive some illumination and respond to the promptings of the Holy Spirit by giving their life to Jesus and make Him their Savior and not their church or their works.

Thank you EricEric for your observations in regard to belief, yes, a very essential part of being born again.

But this does offer an interesting pov, did belief come before or after being born again? I know for me, I had about 3 months of exposure to Christianity before I was born again. If someone had asked me if I believed in God, I don't think my answer would have been yes, for it was something that I had never really considered.

When I was born again, I only remember this overwhelming sense of my sinfulness before God. So, there must have been some "belief," right? As Hebrews says, one must believe He is. God by Grace came to me that night and removed my sinful nature. I can remember that as clearly as if it happened yesterday. The next day when I woke up, I knew something very profound had occurred to me, if you had asked me then, I would have said, I feel a freedom that I had never experienced before. I couldn't explain it anymore than that. Now after years of study, I know what took place and can pretty much explain that, yet, can I say I completely understand the power of Salvation? Sure, but I know there is much more to it that being born again.

You have spoken well EricEric, thank you for that. I so agree with you in regards to Mormons and what they believe, may they come to Christ and His saving grace.

God bless and have a wonderful Memorial Day.

dfoJC

Billyray

05-30-2011, 10:31 AM

When I was born again, I only remember this overwhelming sense of my sinfulness before God. So, there must have been some "belief," right? As Hebrews says, one must believe He is.

I believed in Christ as far back as I can remember (the LDS Christ) I was taught the Bible also as far back as a young child as well from the LDS POV. I believed both but God changed my heart and opened my eyes to the truth and this was clear as day to me. My faith prior to that was in the LDS Jesus but AFTER God changed me I placed my faith in the true Jesus. For me it was God and God alone responsible for my conversion, and therefore the glory goes to God alone.

Billyray

05-30-2011, 05:05 PM

So you can be saved without being regenerated?

I already said no. Why don't you read my posts? I'll say it again: regeneration and spiritual rebirth/being saved are the same thing.
Conversion (repentance and faith)

Erik isn't a person saved after he has repented and placed his faith in Christ?

Billyray

05-31-2011, 11:45 PM

You have had several Christians on here try to tell you that you are mistaken. . . However, you claimed that you were regenerated before you had believed in the true gospel and repented.
Erik other Christians are here trying to tell you that you are mistaken.

Question: What does that mean, regeneration precedes faith.

Answer: Again, it means God regenerates you via your nature, and then you have the ability to choose good, thus giving you faith. Contrary to the free willies, who believe faith precedes regeneration.

alanmolstad

06-01-2011, 04:02 AM

I know for me, I had about 3 months of exposure to Christianity before I was born again.

I think the Bible talks about the path of your salvation like this:

We are saved by Grace though faith.
Faith comes by hearing,
Hearing by the word of God.

lets break it down:
Grace is the thing that saves us.

Grace = is favor where none is called for, none is owed, none is expected.

The path Grace takes to save us is faith.

faith= is seeing where you cant see, knowing what cant be known...trusting what cant be pointed to.

So where does our faith come from?

Faith comes from Hearing Jesus speak to our hearts. hearing the knock at the door of our heart....listening to that Voice of Christ speak to us and call un to himself. This is where that general call we read about in the Bible for all men to come to the cross, suddenly calls us by name....its no longer a story about people recorded in a book, its about ourselves.

and where does hearing come from?

The Bible.....the Word....the written and spoken word that God has given us to show Himself to us...

So because of Grace, the word reaches you...
a verse here, a spoken word there, a message about jesus, a fact you think about...a story that reaches you.

This sinks down into the good earth that your heart is. and grows.

The result is that the dry words of the Bible become living words in your life as you now hear them come alive to you. The calling of Christ is heard by your heart to join with Jesus.

This props you to have trust that the same Jesus spoken of in the Bible will be able to save you just as is talked about in the church and recorded in the Bible.
You see the work of God in this world ...you see yourself as "His"....and He is "Your God and savior"........

and the church population has increased by another number.....

ErikErik

06-01-2011, 05:26 AM

I had about 3 months of exposure to Christianity before I was born again.

.

dfoJC

I am glad to see you on here dfoJC and hope you will continue to participate. Your posts are excellent and very scriptural.

Faith comes by the hearing of the word of God. I believe exposure to the Truth over time brings about illumination that we are sinners in need of a Savior.

Romans 10:17: So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God..

Hopefully our witness on this forum will help the lds to see the Truth.

ErikErik

06-01-2011, 05:48 AM

Erik other Christians are here trying to tell you that you are mistaken.

Billy, the member you quoted from subscribes to Calvinism. What do you think his screen name means? Its the French spelling of John Calvin.

Billyray

06-01-2011, 06:13 AM

Billy, the member you quoted from subscribes to Calvinism. What do you think his screen name means? Its the French spelling of John Calvin.

Right, And your point?

dfoJC

06-01-2011, 10:56 AM

I think the Bible talks about the path of your salvation like this:

We are saved by Grace though faith.
Faith comes by hearing,
Hearing by the word of God.

lets break it down:
Grace is the thing that saves us.

Grace = is favor where none is called for, none is owed, none is expected.

The path Grace takes to save us is faith.

faith= is seeing where you cant see, knowing what cant be known...trusting what cant be pointed to.

So where does our faith come from?

Faith comes from Hearing Jesus speak to our hearts. hearing the knock at the door of our heart....listening to that Voice of Christ speak to us and call un to himself. This is where that general call we read about in the Bible for all men to come to the cross, suddenly calls us by name....its no longer a story about people recorded in a book, its about ourselves.

and where does hearing come from?

The Bible.....the Word....the written and spoken word that God has given us to show Himself to us...

So because of Grace, the word reaches you...
a verse here, a spoken word there, a message about jesus, a fact you think about...a story that reaches you.

This sinks down into the good earth that your heart is. and grows.

The result is that the dry words of the Bible become living words in your life as you now hear them come alive to you. The calling of Christ is heard by your heart to join with Jesus.

This props you to have trust that the same Jesus spoken of in the Bible will be able to save you just as is talked about in the church and recorded in the Bible.
You see the work of God in this world ...you see yourself as "His"....and He is "Your God and savior"........

and the church population has increased by another number.....

Thank you Alan for your observations. The night I was born again the Word was preached, in a way that I had never heard before. As I mentioned my only exposure to Christianity was a 3 month summer attendance at a Baptist Church some years before.

Everything you speak of is true. The Word becoming alive is probably for me one of the most powerful aspects of following Christ, my first memory verse was Jeremiah 33:3, "call unto me and I will answer thee and show you great and mighty things which thou knowest not." Wow, how true that has been over the years.

Take care, and again, thanks for your perspective,

dfoJC

BrianH

06-01-2011, 01:59 PM

People on this board throw around the term Christian verses non Christian. What exactly are the requirements to be a Christian?

Since the topic of this board is Mormonism, the only relevant response is to identify what Mormonism requires to meet the implications of that appelative.

According to Mormonism, one must

pay feilty to Joseph Smith
swear loyalty to the LDS church
wear special underwear
learn secret p***words, handshakes and "tokens" (gesticular signs) in a secret initiation rite and
believe that there really was a vast civilization somewhere in the Western Hemisphere (Mormons cannot tell us exactly WHERE), that was populated by millions of Jewish American Indians who transmitted their entire religious tradition through ONE copy of ONE book of alleged Hebrew "scriptures", supposedly written in "Egyptian" and
These Jewish American Indians somehow operated a "Christian" "Church" and quoted the New Testament liberally hundreds of years before Christ himself was even born

...among other absurdities.

If Mormons were right and the above really was the requriement for being a Christian ...well, I guess I could never be a "Christian".

thanks anyway

-BH

.

Billyray

06-03-2011, 07:18 PM

You have absolutely not defined it. That is why I have asked you over and over again. Maybe if you define it we can understand each other's position a little bit better.

Define

1. Conversion

2. Regeneration/born again

Bump for Sword or Erik for an answer.

alanmolstad

06-03-2011, 07:34 PM

Thank you Alan for your observations. The night I was born again ......

Thanks for reminding me of a an important fact...
There are some many guys who have all kinds of lists and systems that describe salvation and how it occurs....

its important to remember that in some cases, the journey from being lost to being found takes one night....

Billyray

06-03-2011, 07:38 PM

its important to remember that in some cases, the journey from being lost to being found takes one night....

Who would disagree with that Alan? I don't think anyone.

alanmolstad

06-04-2011, 06:59 AM

Thank you Alan for your observations.

Its fun to write to you.

If you got any questions for me to chew on....just let me hear em.

Billyray

07-17-2011, 10:01 AM

. . .What he does predestine is that those who choose Christ. . .
So you pick yourself then God predestines you?

That Guy

07-17-2011, 05:31 PM

People on this board throw around the term Christian verses non Christian. What exactly are the requirements to be a Christian?

Being a Christian is not determined by the acceptance of any creeds established after the death of Jesus Christ. While they may seem to be theologically sound they are unnecessary. We don't need church fathers to interpret what it means to be a true believer and disciple of Christ. Accepting the Athanasian, Apostle's, or Nicene Creed in no way makes you a Christian. A wonderful pastor actually spoke about this 2 weeks ago. It was heartfelt and academically and spiritually minded.

James Banta

07-22-2011, 09:05 AM

Being a Christian is not determined by the acceptance of any creeds established after the death of Jesus Christ. While they may seem to be theologically sound they are unnecessary. We don't need church fathers to interpret what it means to be a true believer and disciple of Christ. Accepting the Athanasian, Apostle's, or Nicene Creed in no way makes you a Christian. A wonderful pastor actually spoke about this 2 weeks ago. It was heartfelt and academically and spiritually minded.

I agree Guy, all you need to believe to be a Christian is that Jesus is God and God is, eternally God, all knowing, all powerful, the creator of ALL things, and alone as God.. In short only what the Bible says about Him.. If you deny or change His attributes you have changed who and what He is. Therefore you have created your own God and will not submit to the one true and living God. This mean you are NOT A CHRISTIAN.. IHS jim

James Banta

07-22-2011, 09:20 AM

[QUOTE=BigJulie;89216]

I see that and it is just what I have been saying in Judah is the promise of kingship. In Judah is the promise of the Messiah. Sounds like it is Judah that received the double portion of the birthright and not Joseph.. But then Joseph did receive a double portion of his father's property.. Even if holding the right of king over the people, isn't Jesus the best of the inheritances? Your insistence to be of the house of Joseph and therefore the people of the birthright has lost it's power I would say.. That promise to Jacob that through him all the world would be blessed in the best and most important promise made to him, Issac, and Abraham.. IHS jim

I guess when Julie started thinking about this the question of birthright being in the house of Joseph went right out the window.. There is question that the sons of Joseph would have even had the right to bear mormon priesthood.. After all his wife was of Egypt and the founder of Egypt was under the ban:
Abraham 1:23, 24, 26
The land of Egypt being first discovered by a woman, who was the daughter of Ham, and the daughter of Egyptus...from Ham, sprang that race which preserved the curse in the land...Pharaoh, being a righteous man, established his kingdom and judged his people wisely and justly all his days...but cursed him as pertaining to the Priesthood.

And the Bible teaches that Pharaoh gave Joseph the name Zaphenath-Paneah and gave him Asenath daughter of Potiphera, priest of On, to be his wife. And Joseph went throughout the land of Egypt (Genesis 41:45).. Yes I know that the LDS church say she wasn't of the linage under that ban but that isn't confirmed in the Bible.. He married a woman of EGYPT.. IHS jim

HopefulSaint

07-22-2011, 01:44 PM

I agree Guy, all you need to believe to be a Christian is that Jesus is God and God is, eternally God, all knowing, all powerful, the creator of ALL things, and alone as God.. In short only what the Bible says about Him..

Where does Jesus claim that He (Jesus) alone, is God? MY Bible quotes Jesus saying that His Father is the only true God. So my Bible contradicts your belief. Which should I put my trust in as being the correct theology?

Billyray

07-22-2011, 08:03 PM

MY Bible quotes Jesus saying that His Father is the only true God.
Thus you have to believe that Jesus is a false God.

alanmolstad

07-22-2011, 09:57 PM

In the beginning, was the WORD.
and the WORD was with God

and the WORD was God....

The WORD became flesh....

James Banta

07-23-2011, 09:05 AM

Where does Jesus claim that He (Jesus) alone, is God? [MY[/B] Bible quotes Jesus saying that His Father is the only true God. So my Bible contradicts your belief. Which should I put my trust in as being the correct theology?

Jesus agreed with Moses who received the teaching from Jesus as the God that spoke to Him on Mt Sinai that "the Lord our God is one Lord" (Deut 6:4, Mark 12:29). Yet Jesus said it was correct to call Him Lord for so He is (John 13:13). And he said that He is the I AM that spoke to Moses, the Jew understood that because they thought he was blaspheming (John 8:58-59). Jesus also accepted worship from Thomas as He called Him Lord and God (John 20:28). It is clear that Jesus claimed to be God and allowed others to worship Him as such.. Are you sure your bible has all the books and references mine does? Yes, the Bible teaches that the Father is the only true God and so He is.. But Jesus and the Holy Spirit are also the Only true God.. For all of them are called God in the Bible and the Bible also teaches that there is ONE GOD.. If all three of these Persons are called God and there is only one God then God in a trinity of Persons and each of then is the only true God, and yet together they are still one God.. The trinity is the only doctrine I have heard that allows the whole of the Bible to be true.. IHS jim

Billyray

07-23-2011, 09:29 AM

Blasphemer

Who are you calling a Blasphemer?

dfoJC

07-23-2011, 12:45 PM

HopefulSaint;92135]Where does Jesus claim that He (Jesus) alone, is God? MY Bible quotes Jesus saying that His Father is the only true God. So my Bible contradicts your belief. Which should I put my trust in as being the correct theology?

Do us all a favor HopefulSaint, when you make a claim that "your bible says" please give us chapter and verse so that we can at least have an idea where you are getting this from. For all we know, it could be the JST.

However, Jesus also says this; "He who seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, "show us the Father?" Jesus then goes on to clarify this very important point by adding, " Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves." (John 14:10-11)

Pretty straightforward I would say. Now put your trust in that p***age.

dfoJC

HopefulSaint

07-23-2011, 01:57 PM

[COLOR="Blue"]Do us all a favor HopefulSaint, when you make a claim that "your bible says" please give us chapter and verse so that we can at least have an idea where you are getting this from.
Here's a deal for you: You make sure that the people who attack the LDS stop just saying "The Bible says...." and I will try to always cite chapter and verse too, for as long as they do the same.

I will start right now:

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

John 17:3 NKJV

James Banta

07-23-2011, 03:02 PM

Here's a deal for you: You make sure that the people who attack the LDS stop just saying "The Bible says...." and I will try to always cite chapter and verse too, for as long as they do the same.

I will start right now:

John 17:3 NKJV

Wonderful verse.. Eternal life has nothing to do with works at all but is totally dependent on knowing God.. Since Jesus is also called God in scripture (John 20:28-29), and Jesus accepted that worship as God (Matthew 8:2-3).. So it is life eternal to know the Father, and the Son. After all they are the only true God. A Christian will have no problem with that verse doctrinally. After all not one of us will tell you that the Father and the Son are the same Person.. That is a mistake that mormonism makes again and again about what the Trinity really is.. I have taught it several times.. The Father is NOT the Son nor is either the Holy Spirit.. They are separate individual Persons, who are the one true God.. I have even explained this in creation to show how such a thing is possible. After all height is not breath, nor are either of those width. Each is a separate dimension, each infinite therefore each is all the space that can be (Not a single point in space that isn't part of each of all three of these dimension).. Yet all of them make one space.. That was a revelation given to me. A way that my weak human mind to understand the concept of how three eternal persons can be one Being.. Can you understand.. IHS jim

Decalogue

07-24-2011, 06:00 AM

Who are you calling a Blasphemer?

Read your own words that you posted in post # 465 above and figure it out .

Before you eat anything today , before you put your head on a pillow at bedtime ... you need to open up to the Gospel of John chapter 1. Read the first 18 verses !

Next turn over to John chapter 4 and read what Jesus of Nazareth says to and talks about with , the Samaritan woman at the well. Then turn over to John chapter 9 and read what Jesus does and says to the "man born blind".

Now turn over to the last Book of Holy Scripture and read The Revelation of Jesus Christ to St. John... ( The actual name of the book --- ( not as some wrongly call it ; 'revelations'. )

Revelation chapter 19 verse 16. " and he hath on His vesture and on His thigh a name written , "KING OF KINGS" , AND LORD OF LORDS. "

The Lord Jesus Christ is NOT a false God ! You need to repent of your blasphemous statement which you posted above in #465.

..." Every knee shall bow , and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is LORD ! "...

alanmolstad

07-24-2011, 06:36 AM

Read your own words that you posted in post # 465 above and figure it out .

..
You seem to have gotten yourself all worked up there Decalogue.

Im not all that sure whats the big problem?...but I caught enough to see the general flow of you guy's conversation.

Let me just define my terms first so we are on the same page.

Jesus is the 2nd person of the Trinity
Jesus has two natures.
Jesus is 100% fully God Almighty
Jesus is 100% fully human.

as a 100% full human just like us, Jesus had to pray to the Father in heaven as his God just like we do...

James Banta

07-24-2011, 07:02 AM

You seem to have gotten yourself all worked up there Decalogue.

Im not all that sure whats the big problem?...but I caught enough to see the general flow of you guy's conversation.

Let me just define my terms first so we are on the same page.

Jesus is the 2nd person of the Trinity
Jesus has two natures.
Jesus is 100% fully God Almighty
Jesus is 100% fully human.

as a 100% full human just like us, Jesus had to pray to the Father in heaven as his God just like we do...

I have never seen it put in better terms. This is simple and so very true.. IHS jim

Billyray

07-24-2011, 08:27 AM

Read your own words that you posted in post # 465 above and figure it out .

You completely misread my post. Why don't you re read my post and figure out the point I was making to the other poster.

Walrus

07-24-2011, 01:52 PM

[QUOTE=James Banta;89345]

I guess when Julie started thinking about this the question of birthright being in the house of Joseph went right out the window.. There is question that the sons of Joseph would have even had the right to bear mormon priesthood.. After all his wife was of Egypt and the founder of Egypt was under the ban:
Abraham 1:23, 24, 26
The land of Egypt being first discovered by a woman, who was the daughter of Ham, and the daughter of Egyptus...from Ham, sprang that race which preserved the curse in the land...Pharaoh, being a righteous man, established his kingdom and judged his people wisely and justly all his days...but cursed him as pertaining to the Priesthood.

And the Bible teaches that Pharaoh gave Joseph the name Zaphenath-Paneah and gave him Asenath daughter of Potiphera, priest of On, to be his wife. And Joseph went throughout the land of Egypt (Genesis 41:45).. Yes I know that the LDS church say she wasn't of the linage under that ban but that isn't confirmed in the Bible.. He married a woman of EGYPT.. IHS jim

Well, Joseph had Ephraim and Man***eh and Joseph's father Jacob adopted them as his own. Genesis 48:16-19

The blessings promised to Ephraim and Man***eh are huge. Duet. 33:13-17..Joseph gets the big blessing by Moses.

Then you know Ezekial right? Pretty cool...I wonder when you would suppose that promise would be fulfilled....if Ephraim is the one to push all the House of Israel together, in the last days, then perhaps the Stick of Ephraim, which is meant, by God, to come forth and be combined with the stick of Judah, to be made One in God's hand...and in our hand.

James Banta

07-24-2011, 03:44 PM

Well, Joseph had Ephraim and Man***eh and Joseph's father Jacob adopted them as his own. Genesis 48:16-19 and there we find the blessing that each tribe received at the hand of Israel their father..

Lets examine the difference between the blessings

To Judah he gave this blessing

Gen 49:8-12
Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; thy father's children shall bow down before thee.
Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?
The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ***'s colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:
His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk.

To Ephraim and Man***eh he gave this blessing:

Gen 48:15-16,20
And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,
The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a mul***ude in the midst of the earth.
...In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Man***eh...

To the remainder of the house of Joseph this blessing:

Gen 49:22-26
Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall:
The archers have sorely grieved him, and shot at him, and hated him:
But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel:)
Even by the God of thy father, who shall help thee; and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb:
The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.

The blessings promised to Ephraim and Man***eh are huge. Duet. 33:13-17..Joseph gets the big blessing by Moses.

To Judah Moses' blessing came:

Deut 33:7
Hear, LORD, the voice of Judah, and bring him unto his people: let his hands be sufficient for him; and be thou an help to him from his enemies.
To Joseph he this blessing came:

Deut 33:13-16
Blessed of the LORD be his land, for the precious things of heaven, for the dew, and for the deep that coucheth beneath,
And for the precious fruits brought forth by the sun, and for the precious things put forth by the moon,
And for the chief things of the ancient mountains, and for the precious things of the lasting hills,
And for the precious things of the earth and fulness thereof, and for the good will of him that dwelt in the bush: let the blessing come upon the head of Joseph, and upon the top of the head of him that was separated from his brethren.

I am not seeing that the blessing of any of Joseph is greater than the kingship not p***ing from Judah. Judah's blessing was pretty COOL!!

[QUOTE]Then you know Ezekial right? Pretty cool...I wonder when you would suppose that promise would be fulfilled.

Ezekiel 37 is about two separate nations being recombined as one.. I know what mormonism makes of that but their interpretation can't be supported by the text. For within the text there is an interpretation of that test (Ezk 37:18-23) There is nothing there about records or books.. Just two sticks one with Judah written on it and one with Israel written on it. The prophet puts them in one hand uniting them saying that the divided kingdoms will be no more. That they will be one nation again.

...if Ephraim is the one to push all the House of Israel together, in the last days, then perhaps the Stick of Ephraim, which is meant, by God, to come forth and be combined with the stick of Judah, to be made One in God's hand...and in our hand.

The prophecy that is given here that the nation will be united some say will not occur until the Lord comes again.. I think that it happened when Israel again became a nation in 1947. Remember Israel was taken captive by ***yria and never came out.. With the UN forming the nation of Israel I would say that Joseph was represented in that body that fulfilled the prophecy.. Of course, I could be wrong and the prophecy still awaits fulfillment..

A scroll of scripture is never called anything but a scroll. Even books of secular information were never called sticks. They were always called scrolls. Your teaching of mormonism to the contrary is a man invented interpretation of the text. Since it was interpreted in the text by God that is the ONLY interpretation that should be considered not what some man has taught.. IHS jim

Decalogue

07-24-2011, 10:33 PM

You completely misread my post. Why don't you re read my post and figure out the point I was making to the other poster.

Billyray : Well --- I read your Post 3 times now ... and it still reeks in my nostrils. I just deleted the Post that I had ***led " Blasphemer".

I still do not know what you hold to. Your thread ***le sounds like you are a Mormon trying to ask a "trick question" of the Biblical Christians on this website. You have been given some answers to your Thread question , but you still don't seem to quite understand.

I honestly do not know what you believe in / hold to / trust in. I can tell from other posters such as BrianH and James Banta and neverending and some1you_know and Russ and a couple of others ( such as Columcille ). They uphold the Christian Faith which can easily be found in the pages of Holy Scripture. This is my 5th decade on the planet and I have a fairly good reading comprehension level ... ( as long as it is not about algebra and computer/techno geek-speak stuff ) but your posts are flat out

:confused:

Whether that is intentional on your part --- to get controversy going ,,, or , a diversionary tactic which L.D.S. Headquarters @ S.L.C. has told you to do ,,, I'm not sure.

If you are a Born-Again / Blood-bought / Blessed Hope / Bible believing Christian ... ( only you and The Lord know for sure ) , then you really need to come up with a different and better way to make a point to "Hopeful Saint" than by posting the sentence which you did ... On a website which can be read anywhere in the world that has a computer & internet .

Billyray

07-25-2011, 06:50 AM

Billyray : Well --- I read your Post 3 times now ... and it still reeks in my nostrils. I just deleted the Post that I had ***led " Blasphemer".

Maybe you need to read it a fourth time then. Here is a hint. The poster that I was addressing believes that Jesus and the Father are separate and distinct Gods. If they believe that the Father is the ONLY true God then this must mean that the Son is a false god.

Billyray

07-25-2011, 07:25 AM

Whether that is intentional on your part --- to get controversy going ,,, or , a diversionary tactic which L.D.S. Headquarters @ S.L.C. has told you to do ,,, I'm not sure.

BTW I am not LDS.

HopefulSaint

07-25-2011, 10:24 AM

Wonderful verse..
Yeah, I thought so too, because it quotes Jesus (one of the 3 Persons of the "trinity") saying that His Father (a DIFFERENT Person of the trinity) is the only true God--at least as far as Christians are concerned.

That statement from the Person of the Son, saying that it's the Person of the Father who is the only true God, teaches some very important theological doctrine.

HopefulSaint

07-25-2011, 10:26 AM

If they believe that the Father is the ONLY true God then this must mean that the Son is a false god.

I was just quoting a Bible verse. If you choose to accuse it of saying that Jesus is a false god, that's your choice, but LDS will disagree with your interpretation.

Billyray

07-25-2011, 10:53 AM

I was just quoting a Bible verse. If you choose to accuse it of saying that Jesus is a false god, that's your choice, but LDS will disagree with your interpretation.

If the Father is the ONLY true God and you believe the Father and the Son are separate and distinct Gods then what can you conclude?

James Banta

07-25-2011, 11:22 AM

Yeah, I thought so too, because it quotes Jesus (one of the 3 Persons of the "trinity") saying that His Father (a DIFFERENT Person of the trinity) is the only true God--at least as far as Christians are concerned.

That statement from the Person of the Son, saying that it's the Person of the Father who is the only true God, teaches some very important theological doctrine.

And how is that untrue? Oh, if you don't understand the trinity then you would thing that it teaches three Gods.. IT DOESN'T! There is One true God who is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Three that exist together as God. never separated always one in the other.. All of one divine nature and essence. When Jesus says that the Father is the only true God He includes Himself.. This truth was revealed through the prophet:

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Must you really be told who this is? This Child that was born and given to us? He is indeed Wonderful, our Counselor, the Prince of Peace but this Child is also THE MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER..

Stop taking your little snippets out of the whole of the message from God and try to twist that message. Jesus doesn't exclude that He is God by that eternal life is had by knowing the only true God and Jesus whom that God sent.. He is saying that He was sent by God, which includes Himself.. After all he did claim to be YHWH did He not (John 8:58)? Remember look at the whole revelation not just a few pixels of the picture.. A distorted concept of the whole will always be understood if you do so.. That is what you have claimed a distorted view of the whole.. You refuse to accept the whole and grasp at straw of true that lead you to believe the lies that Smith generated from his distortions of the truth.. IHS jim

HopefulSaint

07-25-2011, 11:25 AM

If the Father is the ONLY true God and you believe the Father and the Son are separate and distinct Gods then what can you conclude?

You can conclude that Jesus, in His premortal existence where He was known as Yahweh, was the God of ancient Israel, and that Jesus' Father is the God of Christianity.

That is the conclusion that helps me make the most sense out of the Bible.

James Banta

07-25-2011, 11:49 AM

You can conclude that Jesus, in His premortal existence where He was known as Yahweh, was the God of ancient Israel, and that Jesus' Father is the God of Christianity.

That is the conclusion that helps me make the most sense out of the Bible.

Then you cast off the Bible as it teaches that No other Gods were formed before YHWH, and none would be formed after Him (Isaiah 43:10).. That He was a ****** God because there is another God that exists right in front of Him and He is smart enough to recognize Him as such. He didn't even know that He was a God, or there was another (Isaiah 44:8).. I am amazed of the low opinion that mormonism shows for the knowledge even the intelligence of God in this matter.. Did the Jesus you say is the real Jesus, your God of just the OT, teach Moses that the Lord his God was one Lord (Deut 6:4), or was this another time when that ****** god of mormonism just forget that the Father was there at that time? And who was the God that is said to be God from everlasting to everlasting in the Psalms (Psalm 90:2)?

Surely they weren't speaking of the Gods taught by Smith. They were created by a God who himself is the creation of yet an older more powerful God.. Seems that mormonism just plugs in the name of the God they think fits the circumstances as they try without success to understand who and what God really is.. For He is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, The Being that has been God from eternity past, and will continue as the Only God into eternity future.. The God that is all powerful, all loving, all just, all pure, all righteous, always present, and all knowing.. Mormonism sells Him short depositing Him in the small slot that Smith built to push Him into.. That is THE REASON WHY MORMONISM IS NONCHRISTIAN. IT DENIES WHO AND WHAT GOD IS!!!! IHS jim

Billyray

07-25-2011, 12:02 PM

Billyray

07-25-2011, 04:54 PM

You have been given some answers to your Thread question , but you still don't seem to quite understand
What do you think that I "don't seem to quite understand"?

HopefulSaint

07-25-2011, 05:22 PM

So you believe that there are two different Gods for different groups of people?

Yep. Ancient Israel had their God and they were commanded to not place any other God before that one, and then when Jesus came He told His disciples that for THEM, they should not place any God higher than Jesus' Father.

Simple as that, and it allows both Bible teachings--the OT and the NT--to be true. That's one reason I like this explanation, it allows me to believe the Bible to be true. That's a GOOD thing, right?

Billyray

07-25-2011, 05:26 PM

Yep. Ancient Israel had their God and they were commanded to not place any other God before that one, and then when Jesus came He told His disciples that for THEM, they should not place any God higher than Jesus' Father.

So the Jew's God was Jesus (pre mortal Jesus) and the Gentile's God was God the Father?

jdjhere

07-25-2011, 06:12 PM

So the Jew's God was Jesus (pre mortal Jesus) and the Gentile's God was God the Father?

Wow, are we finally sorting out the gods now? This might take awhile..... I am going to get some popcorn...

HopefulSaint

07-25-2011, 06:55 PM

So the Jew's God was Jesus (pre mortal Jesus) and the Gentile's God was God the Father?

I would say it this way: Ancient Israel's God was Jesus, aka God the Son (premortal, as you said), and God the Father is the God of CHRISTIANS, as per Jesus' teachings and the writings of His apostles in the NT.

HopefulSaint

07-25-2011, 06:56 PM

Wow, are we finally sorting out the gods now? This might take awhile..... I am going to get some popcorn...

Didn't seem to take that long. How was your popcorn?

jdjhere

07-25-2011, 09:26 PM

disappointing actually. I hardly started.

jdjhere

07-25-2011, 09:27 PM

So wait..that IS two gods then?

jdjhere

07-25-2011, 09:28 PM

So Jesus isnt MY God?

jdjhere

07-25-2011, 09:29 PM

but the Father is?

jdjhere

07-25-2011, 09:34 PM

True? False? Short concise answer so I dont have to look through gibberish?

jdjhere

07-25-2011, 09:45 PM

Hmmm, looks like everybody went to bed. Tomorrow perhaps I will get an answer.... goodnight all

HopefulSaint

07-26-2011, 12:30 AM

So wait..that IS two gods then?

Yes, that is correct. But if you're a Christian, then regardless how many gods and lords there are, and regardless where they are--on Earth, or up in heaven--to you there is only one God (Jesus' Father) and to you there is only one Lord (Jesus).

alanmolstad

07-26-2011, 04:30 AM

there is only one God, the Mormon gods are fake...

The one God is father/Son. and Holy Spirit.

Decalogue

07-26-2011, 06:45 AM

What do you think that I "don't seem to quite understand"?

Billyray --- Glad to read that you are not L.D.S.. Obviously you and I think differently. Rather than ask a Mormon something that they do not know and cannot fathom... because they may be "warm-hearted" , but are Biblically unaware people.... IMO , you should have TOLD them the differences of what the Bible says about Christianity and what the L.D.S. system says.

Mormons are taught that Jesus is the spirit-brother of Lucifer and was produced by a daddy-god in times past. Nobody that buys into that kinda thinking is going to have a clue as to what real Biblical Christianity is.

I guess that your Thread was started by you to make a point ,,, but after reading the whole 20 pages now...

{ minus most of the posts by the LDS folks on here ... because they simply are clueless as to the thread ***le / question. }

... I agree with what poster/member BrianH said on page 19 ; This whole Thread should have been placed over in the Christianity section of this website . It should NOT be in the "Mormonism" section. I realize that this website is lightly moderated because the founder has other duties and "many fish to fry" , so people sometimes get a little carried-away with certain issues.

Your replies to several people on this Thread (IMO) have not been helpful to getting the true Gospel message out to the LDS folks who may visit W.M. Ministries Forum.

On this Thread , at least one member is a well meaning Christian - but , alas he wears Arminian gl***es , and can only see scripture verses that go along with John 3:16 and the Finney/Moody/Sunday/Graham "sawdust trail" evangelical/evangelistic method.

{That member replied to one of my posts and for some "knee-****" anti-John Calvin reason , needlessly bad-mouthed "Calvinism" in a thread which had nothing to do with the Genevan Reformer. I would betcha he has never even read one page of The Ins***utes of the Christian Religion ...! }

That member ( and yourself ) need to move this whole Thread over to the "Christian" section and not confuse the LDS and other curious visitors to the website.

Another member on this Thread ( who is probably a Christian ) is another part of the problem. That poster insulted the Creeds that have historically been the succinct , re****al / refutation of wrong and wicked doctrines of the gnostics and pagans. They ( The Creeds of Early Christianity )are in paragraph/page long form and have great explanations of what real Christians have held to since the earliest days of Christianity... !!

Those are The Apostles Creed ; The Nicene Creed ; and the Athasian Creed ; and the Formula of Chalcedon. These are the things which SHOULD be read and understood and will answer in a memorable form that the average Joe or Jane human can understand. Please do NOT throw out the good Theology/ Christology of the 4 main Creeds just because they are older than you are.

Do a search engine and look up any of those Creeds and read them for yourself. If you have a 1940 Episcopal Hymnal at home or a 1941 Lutheran Hymnal , you have some great Theology / Christology within reach. Open up and read the Nicene Creed --- ..." Very God of very God ..." " Begotten not made"... Oh folks , that is rich ! Only cultists and the devil hisself hate the Creeds. Read the Creeds and decide for yourself.

Those creeds which have stood the test of time against the forerunners of the J.W.s and the oneness pentecostal nutcases and the sexually obsessed mormon founders of the L.D.S. , will be around long after you and I are gone.

Christianity is Deep ! Christianity is also simple enough that children can understand it. Seems it is the adults that get all wobbly-bobbly in the head and can't seem to understand the black and white of scripture.

The basic - simple answer to your Thread question is simply this: Read what the Lord Jesus said as recorded for us in the Gospels and Acts and Revelation. Follow Him !

Read what the Apostles of The Lord Jesus said as recorded for us in the Acts and Epistles and Revelation. Do them !

Read all of God's written word starting at Genesis 1:1 and read the whole Older Testament , then you can understand what you/me/we are guilty of and why you/me/we need a Saviour.

If anyone reading this Thread needs more details on the Christian Faith and how to be a Biblical Christian then read / look-up ( Search Engine ) The 3 main Creeds that I mentioned above.

For more in-depth Theology/Christology / Soteriology / Pneumatology ? Ecclesiology , read the : The 39 Articles of Religion ; The 2nd London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689 ; The Three Forms of Unity ; and if you have a copy of The Open Bible ( Nelson Publishers ) , read and study "The Christian-Life Study Outlines" .

Billyray

07-26-2011, 07:15 AM

. Rather than ask a Mormon something that they do not know and cannot fathom... because they may be "warm-hearted" , but are Biblically unaware people.... IMO , you should have TOLD them the differences of what the Bible says about Christianity and what the L.D.S. system says.
Do you think that people simply accept something that you tell them or perhaps is it better to ask them a question and let them come up with the answer themselves? IMO the later works better.

Billyray

07-26-2011, 07:16 AM

Mormons are taught that Jesus is the spirit-brother of Lucifer and was produced by a daddy-god in times past

I am not LDS now but I was born and raised LDS so I know all about Mormonism.

Billyray

07-26-2011, 07:18 AM

.. I agree with what poster/member BrianH said on page 19 ; This whole Thread should have been placed over in the Christianity section of this website . It should NOT be in the "Mormonism" section.
I completely disagree. What is more important to a Mormon than determining if they are really a Christian or not. They call themselves Christian. So this is completely relevant to the discussion at hand.

TheSword99

07-26-2011, 07:19 AM

Billyray --- Glad to read that you are not L.D.S.. Obviously you and I think differently. Rather than ask a Mormon something that they do not know and cannot fathom... because they may be "warm-hearted" , but are Biblically unaware people.... IMO , you should have TOLD them the differences of what the Bible says about Christianity and what the L.D.S. system says.

Mormons are taught that Jesus is the spirit-brother of Lucifer and was produced by a daddy-god in times past. Nobody that buys into that kinda thinking is going to have a clue as to what real Biblical Christianity is.

I guess that your Thread was started by you to make a point ,,, but after reading the whole 20 pages now...

{ minus most of the posts by the LDS folks on here ... because they simply are clueless as to the thread ***le / question. }

... I agree with what poster/member BrianH said on page 19 ; This whole Thread should have been placed over in the Christianity section of this website . It should NOT be in the "Mormonism" section. I realize that this website is lightly moderated because the founder has other duties and "many fish to fry" , so people sometimes get a little carried-away with certain issues.

Your replies to several people on this Thread (IMO) have not been helpful to getting the true Gospel message out to the LDS folks who may visit W.M. Ministries Forum.

On this Thread , at least one member is a well meaning Christian - but , alas he wears Arminian gl***es , and can only see scripture verses that go along with John 3:16 and the Finney/Moody/Sunday/Graham "sawdust trail" evangelical/evangelistic method.

{That member replied to one of my posts and for some "knee-****" anti-John Calvin reason , needlessly bad-mouthed "Calvinism" in a thread which had nothing to do with the Genevan Reformer. I would betcha he has never even read one page of The Ins***utes of the Christian Religion ...! }

That member ( and yourself ) need to move this whole Thread over to the "Christian" section and not confuse the LDS and other curious visitors to the website.

Another member on this Thread ( who is probably a Christian ) is another part of the problem. That poster insulted the Creeds that have historically been the succinct , re****al / refutation of wrong and wicked doctrines of the gnostics and pagans. They ( The Creeds of Early Christianity )are in paragraph/page long form and have great explanations of what real Christians have held to since the earliest days of Christianity... !!

Those are The Apostles Creed ; The Nicene Creed ; and the Athasian Creed ; and the Formula of Chalcedon. These are the things which SHOULD be read and understood and will answer in a memorable form that the average Joe or Jane human can understand. Please do NOT throw out the good Theology/ Christology of the 4 main Creeds just because they are older than you are.

Do a search engine and look up any of those Creeds and read them for yourself. If you have a 1940 Episcopal Hymnal at home or a 1941 Lutheran Hymnal , you have some great Theology / Christology within reach. Open up and read the Nicene Creed --- ..." Very God of very God ..." " Begotten not made"... Oh folks , that is rich ! Only cultists and the devil hisself hate the Creeds. Read the Creeds and decide for yourself.

Those creeds which have stood the test of time against the forerunners of the J.W.s and the oneness pentecostal nutcases and the sexually obsessed mormon founders of the L.D.S. , will be around long after you and I are gone.

Christianity is Deep ! Christianity is also simple enough that children can understand it. Seems it is the adults that get all wobbly-bobbly in the head and can't seem to understand the black and white of scripture.

The basic - simple answer to your Thread question is simply this: Read what the Lord Jesus said as recorded for us in the Gospels and Acts and Revelation. Follow Him !

Read what the Apostles of The Lord Jesus said as recorded for us in the Acts and Epistles and Revelation. Do them !

Read all of God's written word starting at Genesis 1:1 and read the whole Older Testament , then you can understand what you/me/we are guilty of and why you/me/we need a Saviour.

If anyone reading this Thread needs more details on the Christian Faith and how to be a Biblical Christian then read / look-up ( Search Engine ) The 3 main Creeds that I mentioned above.

For more in-depth Theology/Christology / Soteriology / Pneumatology ? Ecclesiology , read the : The 39 Articles of Religion ; The 2nd London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689 ; The Three Forms of Unity ; and if you have a copy of The Open Bible ( Nelson Publishers ) , read and study "The Christian-Life Study Outlines" .

I agree with much of what you said. I have been trying to get these bible and bible versions discussions taken to the appropriate category since it wasn't and isn't about Mormonism. I will not discuss bible versions in this category and we have been warned not to. How many times must a person be banned before they start following the rules? There are some on here who are not witnessing to Mormons. It makes one wonder why they even post on here at all.

BTW: if I am the member you have singled out as Armimian, which by the way, I am not, then please say so. Thanks.

Billyray

07-26-2011, 07:22 AM

{That member replied to one of my posts and for some "knee-****" anti-John Calvin reason , needlessly bad-mouthed "Calvinism" in a thread which had nothing to do with the Genevan Reformer. I would betcha he has never even read one page of The Ins***utes of the Christian Religion ...!

I hold to the Reformed position but other Christians on the board besides you believe that those who follow Calvin are in a cult. TheSword, ErikErik, Jim, and Alan spent a month or so trying to tell me that Calvinism is false and that I needed to find the truth.

Billyray

07-26-2011, 10:25 AM

I agree with much of what you said. I have been trying to get these bible and bible versions discussions taken to the appropriate category since it wasn't and isn't about Mormonism.
yet you are the one who keeps bringing it up and when I call you on it you say it should be discussed in another forum.

HopefulSaint

07-26-2011, 11:58 AM

...Rather than ask a Mormon something that they do not know and cannot fathom... because they may be "warm-hearted" , but are Biblically unaware people.... ... Nobody that buys into that kinda thinking is going to have a clue as to what real Biblical Christianity is.

{ minus most of the posts by the LDS folks on here ... because they simply are clueless as to the thread ***le / question. }
...people sometimes get a little carried-away with certain issues....Your replies to several people on this Thread (IMO) have not been helpful to getting the true Gospel message out to the LDS folks ...at least one member is a well meaning Christian - but , alas he wears Arminian gl***es , and can only see scripture verses that go along with John 3:16 and the Finney/Moody/Sunday/Graham "sawdust trail" evangelical/evangelistic method.

{That member replied to one of my posts and for some "knee-****" anti-John Calvin reason , needlessly bad-mouthed "Calvinism" in a thread which had nothing to do with the Genevan Reformer. I would betcha he has never even read one page of The Ins***utes of the Christian Religion ...! }
... Another member on this Thread ( who is probably a Christian ) is another part of the problem. That poster insulted the Creeds ... ... Open up and read the Nicene Creed --- ..." Very God of very God ..." " Begotten not made"... Oh folks , that is rich ! Only cultists and the devil hisself hate the Creeds.... Christianity is Deep ! Christianity is also simple enough that children can understand it. Seems it is the adults that get all wobbly-bobbly in the head and can't seem to understand the black and white of scripture.

The basic - simple answer to your Thread question is simply this: Read what the Lord Jesus said as recorded for us in the Gospels and Acts and Revelation. Follow Him !
Read what the Apostles of The Lord Jesus said as recorded for us in the Acts and Epistles and Revelation. Do them !

Read all of God's written word starting at Genesis 1:1 and read the whole Older Testament , then you can understand what you/me/we are guilty of and why you/me/we need a Saviour. ....

....and I nominate that post for "Most Condescending, Insulting, Sanctimonious Post of the Week."

James Banta

07-26-2011, 01:22 PM

....and I nominate that post for "Most Condescending, Insulting, Sanctimonious Post of the Week."

I saw nothing in it that personally posted one insult.. If you think it has show me and I will defend you.. But alas it was spoken against mormonism and not against Hopeful.. IHS jim

Billyray

07-26-2011, 01:48 PM

I agree with much of what you said..
You don't agree with hardly anything that he says. He is a Calvinist and you are an Arminian. Don't you remember that you inferred that Calvinism is a cult? We went over this again and again and you told me that you were right and that my beliefs about Calvinism were wrong.

jdjhere

07-26-2011, 02:08 PM

jdjhere stated:
So wait..that IS two gods then?

HopefulSaint stated: Yes, that is correct. But if you're a Christian, then regardless how many gods and lords there are, and regardless where they are--on Earth, or up in heaven--to you there is only one God (Jesus' Father) and to you there is only one Lord (Jesus).

I may not agree with you HopefulSaint, but I understand what you are trying to say here. Just to clarify, do LDS have any kind of total for the NUMBER of gods that exist and if not are there....say...more than 10? Even if its a god that we dont have anything to do with, worship, etc... is there more than 10 in the entirety of everything that exists everywhere? And is it your belief that God the Father is a god but Jesus is just a lord? Or does Jesus being born of God the Father also make him a god? Just trying to clarify and keep your beliefs correct and straight in my mind. Thanks.

HopefulSaint

07-26-2011, 03:05 PM

I may not agree with you HopefulSaint, but I understand what you are trying to say here.

(if you're a Christian, then regardless how many gods and lords there are, and regardless where they are--on Earth, or up in heaven--to you there is only one God (Jesus' Father) and to you there is only one Lord (Jesus).

Thanks.

Just to clarify, do LDS have any kind of total for the NUMBER of gods that exist and if not are there....say...more than 10?
LDS doctrine is that there never was a time when there were not gods--there never was an initial "big bang" that started the race of spirit-based beings that we are part of.

And is it your belief that God the Father is a god but Jesus is just a lord? Or does Jesus being born of God the Father also make him a god?
Very good. Not just a lord: To LDS, Jesus is our Lord partly because He led the forces of good against those of Lucifer in the war in heaven, partly because of His atonement and death for us making Him our Savior, and partly because His destiny is to rule over this planet during the millennium, etc. But He is also the glorified, only begotten Son of God in whom there is no sin and in whom all of His Father's virtues are evident, which makes Jesus a God--just not "the greatest." Jesus said "My Father is greater than I."

I am happy to answer any other questions from you, since you seem sincere and honest and perceptive.

Billyray

07-26-2011, 06:05 PM

That member ( and yourself ) need to move this whole Thread over to the "Christian" section and not confuse the LDS and other curious visitors to the website.
I am intrigued by your post. You are a new poster here with only 50+ posts and you tell multiple posters what they should or should not do? Why is that? Not to mention falsely calling me a blasphemer in a prior post.

Decalogue

07-26-2011, 11:52 PM

I am intrigued by your post. You are a new poster here with only 50+ posts and you tell multiple posters what they should or should not do? Why is that? Not to mention falsely calling me a blasphemer in a prior post.

:rolleyes: I should never click onto this website so close to bedtime...

I'll try to be brief , but that rarely happens. I have to be to work before the chickens crow , and I had thought my long post above would have / should have answered the Thread ***le Question , and addressed some obvious problems.

A.) Whether I have have 50+ posts or as some people do with thousands of posts does not mean that I do not understand a thing or two about Mormonism and about Christianity. I have stated actual-factual things , and I have made statements that are IMO ( In My Opinion ) , and usually my opinions are based on Scripture and things which I have seen and heard over the years. I often will point readers to a Bible p***age and or a sermon or book source.

B. ) It is called Walter Martin's Ministries Forum --- and is put up on the internet by his daughter Jill. I remember Walter. I listened to him almost every sa****ay night on the radio on KYMS-FM 106 , and on the 1/2 hour program that was played during the weekdays. I attended 2 of his lectures , and bought some of his books. Even called into the program at least twice. Walter was not Mister cushy-wushy when dealing with cults and false religions. He taught us to do what Paul and Peter and Stephen did centuries ago and what Jude admonished us to do: Rightly Defend the Faith ! Stand tall when confronting evil and heresy.

Per my post count ... well , I have been on the Website for a long time. I signed up for the Forums in Feb. 2010. I was welcomed by Jill. I might have posted more , but most of the other sections on here are vverrrry ssloooww. Then I had a very bad problem with the Firewall / anti-virus thingy-ma-jig , and I could not log in for months on this site.

I have posted on other sites , and I have found that many people who sit behind a keyboard and type without anyone watching , sure do get weird sometimes. Others think that they are The Pope and we should bow before them and kis their ring. Nobody is above scripture and if someone on the internet is coming up with some new wind of doctrine --- Flee !

If anyone gets offended by scripture , then so be it.

C. ) I removed the post where the ***le said "Blasphemer" , after you explained that you were trying to make a point to poster "HopefulSaint". I deleted that post after you said that you were not LDS and that you had a plan. I completely disagree with your approach then , and now. For the very sentence which you posted. Do you not understand that hundreds of people on the internet can read what you have posted ? If I did not understand your intent ( and I'm not wet behind the ears , by a long time ) then I think that many folks who read the website without posting , may be somewhat confused by that post you made. Why not you delete it and move on. ..?

I have no Mod or Admin powers here. I do have the ability to read and by the Grace of God , the ability to think. If Walter Martin ever used your tactics to reach Mormons and / or J.W.s , I never heard it or read it. I am certified positive that Walter Martin would not start a Thread about "What are the requirements to be a Hindu ?" over in the Buddhist section of the Boards.

--------- ------------- ------------- ----------

D. ) Okay now --- HopefulSaint : Oy Vey ,,, What I posted above was true , and just like Walter Martin's books and tapes ; If the head guys in S.L.C. could have refuted it , they would have. I stand by what I said.

L.D.S. Mormons are by and large often nice people. That does not mean they know what the Bible says / commands / teaches. Mormonism teaches that Jesus and lucifer are "spirit-brothers". If you knew your Bible you would be indignant that Joseph Smith and B. Young and the others could 'Pull-a-rabbit-out-of-their-hat" , and con so many people with that lie. Christians ( and those Creeds I mentioned ) teach that there is One true and living God. he exists in 3 Persons. The Father , The Son , The Holy Ghost. { And before you insult the Triune Godhead ,,, I'll remind you again ---> The Trinity is mentioned in The BoM. }

What I first typed was not the word "unaware" , but it was a word that starts with 'i' and ends with 't' , and has a 'g' and 'r' , 'n' , 'o' , but the word sensor-gizmo turned it into a line of asterisks . That word is the perfect description of the average Joe and Jane Mormon ; They simply do NOT know / they are unaware of the Bible. They may own one , but , they change many of the word meanings around.

Instead of feeling insulted and then posting that you did not like my post above ... why not actually do the google or the bing and look up those Creeds and Documents which I mentioned. Don't get mad or upset at a Christian who is trying to expose you to the real gospel.

The Sword99 ---> I did not use any screen names , because I wanted the folks to remember the content of the post --- not the name/ID of the poster. I have been and still do post on other sites , and it seems that many folks have a problem staying on the track of the Thread Topic / Question. Too often things get very "heated" , but not more illuminated.

Good night folks , I am reaaly tired.

TheSword99

07-27-2011, 05:04 AM

[QUOTE=Decalogue;92303 The Sword99 ---> I did not use any screen names , because I wanted the folks to remember the content of the post --- not the name/ID of the poster. I have been and still do post on other sites , and it seems that many folks have a problem staying on the track of the Thread Topic / Question. Too often things get very "heated" , but not more illuminated.

Good night folks , I am reaaly tired.[/QUOTE]

I believe the honest way is to speak to the person privately whom you believe is in err. But to anonamously single people out for judgement leaves them unable to defend their position.

I do completely agree with you that this thread does not belong in the Mormonism section.

Billyray

07-27-2011, 07:35 AM

If Walter Martin ever used your tactics to reach Mormons and / or J.W.s , I never heard it or read it.
I am not trying to use "tactics" rather I am trying to discuss things openly and honestly with other posters. BTW what makes you think people have to post in the way that you approve of? That seems odd to me.

Billyray

07-27-2011, 07:37 AM

I believe the honest way is to speak to the person privately whom you believe is in err. But to anonamously single people out for judgement leaves them unable to defend their position.

You had no problem telling me publicly that you thought that my Reformed beliefs were in error.

Billyray

07-27-2011, 07:40 AM

I do completely agree with you that this thread does not belong in the Mormonism section.

And I completely disagree with you. Mormons call themselves Christian. Christians tell Mormons that they are not Christian. Isn't this one of the most important topics that could be discussed on the Mormon board?

HopefulSaint

07-27-2011, 07:51 AM

D. ) Okay now --- HopefulSaint : Oy Vey ,,, What I posted above was true
You may feel that there is no LDS person on the planet who is biblically literate, but it's a rule of thumb that such sweeping generalizations about an entire group of people are false. You wouldn't be the first prejudiced person to malign and insult an entire group of people. "All Negroes are immoral, all Mexicans are lazy, all Jews are misers," etc.

If you are "unaware" that some LDS people have post-graduate degrees in biblical studies-related fields, then I wonder who is really the i-gnorant person here.

,, I'll remind you again ---> The Trinity is mentioned in The BoM.
Are you trying, with that remark, to vindicate the Book of Mormon? Or disparage it? If it really teaches Trinitarianism as it's taught by some Evangelicals, then I am tempted to lose my faith that it's a work of scripture....

That word is the perfect description of the average Joe and Jane Mormon ; They simply do NOT know / they are unaware of the Bible.
And what are your qualifications supporting your claim to know what the average LDS person knows about the Bible?Are you aware of the study that suggests that the average LDS person has a better understanding of Bible teachings than the average mainstream Christian has?

Instead of feeling insulted and then posting that you did not like my post above ... why not actually do the google or the bing and look up those Creeds and Documents which I mentioned.
Already done that. Instead of feeling like you're superior, why don't you get a dose of humility?