Free Will

[alanmolstad]

"In other words, faith is a fruit of regeneration, not the cause of it. God saves sinners so that they will believe, not because they believe out of their own resources."

the above is wrong...

faith is not the fruit......it does not come after....

[Libby]

What about "grace" and "faith" aren't they part of the "this"?

I think the "this" in that sentence is referring to salvation. It (salvation) is, of course, by God's grace and thru our faith in receiving it.

[Billyray]

really?

Yea really. Here is part of your post.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism
"[B]. In other words, faith is a fruit of regeneration, not the cause of it. . .
If faith is a fruit of regeneration then does faith come before or after regeneration? ? ? After of course. And salvation comes when a person repents and places his faith in Christ.

[Libby]

Yea really. Here is part of your post.

If faith is a fruit of regeneration then does faith come before or after regeneration? ? ?

I think he's talking about the Calvinist view. Calvinists believe faith is the fruit of regeneration.

[Billyray]

Ephesians 2:8 says that it is by grace that you are saved...thru faith.. God's grace (his drawing) and then your faith (acceptance/receiving Him, repentance) THEN salvation (regeneration).

OK I see why were seem to be talking past one another. You ***ume that salvation = regeneration. Salvation = when a person repents and places his faith in Christ. Regeneration = being born again. Let's look at a verse that speaks about being born again.

John 3
3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
8 [B]The wind ****s where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”


Here Jesus tells us about being born again. Notice how he describes it--he never describes the things that you and Alan are talking about as a definition of being born again.

[alanmolstad]

I think he's talking about the Calvinist view. Calvinists believe faith is the fruit of regeneration.yes...they are screwed up about that stuff.....

I like how the guy in the video lays it all out and takes the Calvinist ideas apart

[Libby]

OK I see why were seem to be talking past one another. You ***ume that salvation = regeneration. Salvation = when a person repents and places his faith in Christ. Regeneration = being born again. Let's look at a verse that speaks about being born again.

John 3
3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
8 [B]The wind ****s where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”


Here Jesus tells us about being born again. Notice how he describes it--he never describes the things that you and Alan are talking about as a definition of being born again.

Okay, I think I'm kind of confused, again.

Do you believe that people must be regenerated before they can have faith, Billy? Would you say that is the Calvinist position?

[Billyray]

yes...they are screwed up about that stuff.....

I like how the guy in the video lays it all out and takes the Calvinist ideas apart
You mean the guy in the video who doesn't seem to even know Calvinist's beliefs?

[Libby]

From a site off the web:

"Regeneration is a sovereign work of God whereby he supernaturally intervenes in a life, creates a new heart, gives new life and enables one to come to Christ."

Pretty sure that is the Calvinist view.

Geisler is saying that man has faith first and then becomes a new man (is regenerated).

[Billyray]

Okay, I think I'm kind of confused, again.

Do you believe that people must be regenerated before they can have faith, Billy? Would you say that is the Calvinist position?
Being born again (regeneration) precedes faith. See below for the order of salvation.





Ordo Salutis


Historically in the Church there has been disagreement about the order of salvation, especially between those in the Reformed and Arminian camps. The following two perspectives of God's order in carrying out His redemptive work reveals the stark contrast between these two main historic views. Keep in mind that both viewpoints are based on the redemptive work which Christ accomplished for His people in history:

In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is 1) election/predestination (in Christ), 2) Atonement 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)

In the Arminian camp, the ordo salutis is 1) outward call 2) faith/election, 3) repentance, 4) regeneration, 5) justification, 6) perseverance, 7) glorification.


http://www.monergism.com/topics/ordo-salutis

[Libby]

Being born again (regeneration) precedes faith. See below for the order of salvation.

It only precedes faith in the Calvinist view of "order of salvation". That's exactly what Geisler was talking about and says it is backwards. Faith comes first, then regeneration.

Thanks for comparisons above. That makes it more clear.

[Billyray]

It only precedes faith in the Calvinist view of "order of salvation". That's exactly what Geisler was talking about and says it is backwards. Faith comes first, then regeneration.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFs64zcTCYc#t=290
Starting at 2:08 the follow three statements

1. Faith FOLLOWS salvation
2. Faith is not the condition where we get salvation.
3. Salvation is the means whereby we get faith.


All three of the above are not Reformed beliefs which is why I said he was wrong and didn't understand Calvinism. He is confusing regeneration with salvation and they are not the same thing. All you have to do is read John 3 to understand that regeneration (born again) is not the same thing as salvation.

[James Banta]

You could be right, Billy. I really don't know. But, it seems there is no "official doctrine" on this, so the belief is rather fluid. Would be nice to have some LDS input.

If there is no statement from a GA and nothing in there SW then there is no doctrine and they are free to be in as much error and be sinless into their false gods.. IHS jim

[Apologette]

It only precedes faith in the Calvinist view of "order of salvation". That's exactly what Geisler was talking about and says it is backwards. Faith comes first, then regeneration.

Thanks for comparisons above. That makes it more clear.

Can a corpse believe?

[alanmolstad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9EqEcApnJo

[Libby]

Starting at 2:08 the follow three statements

1. Faith FOLLOWS salvation
2. Faith is not the condition where we get salvation.
3. Salvation is the means whereby we get faith.


All three of the above are not Reformed beliefs which is why I said he was wrong and didn't understand Calvinism. He is confusing regeneration with salvation and they are not the same thing. All you have to do is read John 3 to understand that regeneration (born again) is not the same thing as salvation.

Do you believe that regeneration comes before faith?

[Billyray]

Do you believe that regeneration comes before faith?
Perhaps you missed my post. I answered your question and then I gave you the order of salvation which says the same thing.



Okay, I think I'm kind of confused, again.

Do you believe that people must be regenerated before they can have faith, Billy? Would you say that is the Calvinist position?
Being born again (regeneration) precedes faith. See below for the order of salvation.





Ordo Salutis


Historically in the Church there has been disagreement about the order of salvation, especially between those in the Reformed and Arminian camps. The following two perspectives of God's order in carrying out His redemptive work reveals the stark contrast between these two main historic views. Keep in mind that both viewpoints are based on the redemptive work which Christ accomplished for His people in history:

In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is 1) election/predestination (in Christ), 2) Atonement 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)

In the Arminian camp, the ordo salutis is 1) outward call 2) faith/election, 3) repentance, 4) regeneration, 5) justification, 6) perseverance, 7) glorification.


http://www.monergism.com/topics/ordo-salutis

[Billyray]

I like how the guy in the video lays it all out and takes the Calvinist ideas apart
If you are following along with the discussion you would have realized that Geisler sets up a straw man argument. So in reality he doesn't "takes the Calvinist ideas apart".

[Billyray]

Ephesians 2:8 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God

What is "this"?

"This" is salvation, which is absolutely by His grace and His doing, but we must "accept" that gift by putting our faith in Him.

What about "grace" and "faith" aren't they part of the "this"?

I think the "this" in that sentence is referring to salvation. It (salvation) is, of course, by God's grace and thru our faith in receiving it.

A lot of scholars say that "this" refers to the entire phrase that precedes it which is "For by grace you have been saved through faith"

[Libby]

If you are following along with the discussion you would have realized that Geisler sets up a straw man argument. So in reality he doesn't "takes the Calvinist ideas apart".

I'm pretty sure Dr. Geisler understands Calvinism, Billy.

[Libby]

Perhaps you missed my post. I answered your question and then I gave you the order of salvation which says the same thing.

No, I didn't miss it. I even commented on it, but looking at it again, it didn't seem very clear. The second step on the Calvinist side is "Atonement". What does that mean, exactly? I don't even see it on the Arminian side. And, then the gospel call and then the inward call...? Then regeneration?

I'm going to study this a bit and find some other sites. I have one bookmarked. I'll look at it again. What seemed, relatively simple, last night, seems to be getting a bit convoluted, in this conversation.

[Libby]

A lot of scholars say that "this" refers to the entire phrase that precedes it which is "For by grace you have been saved through faith"

The entire phrase is about salvation. It describes the process. But, I think the "this" is specifically about salvation.

The main point I wanted to bring to all of this is that we do have to receive God's gracious gift...we have to participate in receiving it in faith. God offers it, as a free gift. We can do absolutely nothing to earn it...but, we do have to reach out in faith and receive it.

[Billyray]

I'm pretty sure Dr. Geisler understands Calvinism, Billy.
I have shown you where he is wrong on multiple occasions now and I have said that he has set up a straw man argument. Do you want to discuss this further?

[Libby]

I have shown you where he is wrong on multiple occasions now and I have said that he has set up a straw man argument. Do you want to discuss this further?

Yes...multiple occasions? I see that you had a question about his use of the word regeneration in the place of salvation. What were your other questions (concerns)?

[Billyray]

No, I didn't miss it. I even commented on it, but looking at it again, it didn't seem very clear. . . .




Do you believe that people must be regenerated before they can have faith, Billy?

Being born again (regeneration) precedes faith.

Libby I don't know how much more clear I could have been.

[Libby]

Libby I don't know how much more clear I could have been.

Yes, you answered the main question very clearly. I was talking about the order of salvation.

[Billyray]

Yes...multiple occasions? I see that you had a question about his use of the word regeneration in the place of salvation. What were your other questions?


Starting at 2:08 the follow three statements

1. Faith FOLLOWS salvation
2. Faith is not the condition where we get salvation.
3. Salvation is the means whereby we get faith.


All three of the above are not Reformed beliefs which is why I said he was wrong and didn't understand Calvinism. He is confusing regeneration with salvation and they are not the same thing. All you have to do is read John 3 to understand that regeneration (born again) is not the same thing as salvation.
His straw man argument is that Calvinists believe that Faith FOLLOWS salvation and he states this in at least three different ways as noted above. Then he goes to Ephesians 2 to prove his straw man argument that faith doesn't follow salvation. Libby are you playing around with me know. Don't you realize that this is a straw man argument?

[Billyray]

Yes, you answered the main question very clearly. I was talking about the order of salvation.
And in that same exact post I gave you the order of salvation for both the Reformed and the Arminian position. Here it is again for you.


Ordo Salutis


Historically in the Church there has been disagreement about the order of salvation, especially between those in the Reformed and Arminian camps. The following two perspectives of God's order in carrying out His redemptive work reveals the stark contrast between these two main historic views. Keep in mind that both viewpoints are based on the redemptive work which Christ accomplished for His people in history:

In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is 1) election/predestination (in Christ), 2) Atonement 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)

In the Arminian camp, the ordo salutis is 1) outward call 2) faith/election, 3) repentance, 4) regeneration, 5) justification, 6) perseverance, 7) glorification.


http://www.monergism.com/topics/ordo-salutis

[Libby]

And I asked you some questions about it. Can you answer them?

[Billyray]

John 6
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

Here Jesus is talking to some that are following him and listening to his teaching. What reason did Jesus give these guys for why they didn't believe?

[Billyray]

And I asked you some questions about it. Can you answer them?
I am more than happy to answer your question. I have already answered a number of them but you seem to ignore my answers. Go ahead and give me the questions that you want me to answer. BTW I have given you a number of questions so I hope that you are willing to answer mine as well.

[Billyray]

John 3
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’
8 The wind ****s wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

You have asked a lot question about being born again (regeneration), tell me what Jesus says this is like?

[Billyray]

Ephesians 2:8 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God
A lot of scholars say that "this" refers to the entire phrase that precedes it which is "For by grace you have been saved through faith"

The entire phrase is about salvation. It describes the process. But, I think the "this" is specifically about salvation. . .

BK Commentary
Ephesians 2:8-9

"And this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God. Much debate has centered around the demonstrative pronoun "this" htouto. Though some think it refers back to "grace" and others to "faith," neither of these suggestions is really valid because the demonstrative pronoun is neuter whereas "grace" and "faith" are feminine. Also, to refer back to either of these words specifically seems to be redundant. Rather the neuter touto, as is common, refers to the preceding phrase or clause. (In Eph. 1:15 and 3:1 touto, "this," refers back to the preceding section.) Thus it refers back to the concept of salvation (2:4- 8 a), whose basis is grace and means is faith. This salvation does not have its source in man (it is "not from yourselves"), but rather, its source is God's grace for "it is the gift of God"


Also see James White
James White, FAITH IS A GIFT FROM GOD, Eph.2 8-10
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0y7fulxNJMc
at minute mark 1:30

[Libby]

I am more than happy to answer your question. I have already answered a number of them but you seem to ignore my answers. Go ahead and give me the questions that you want me to answer. BTW I have given you a number of questions so I hope that you are willing to answer mine as well.

Sorry, I'm not ignoring your answers. I'm hung up on the "order of salvation". I was trying to get some clarification (for myself). I think the order reflects the differences between the two sets of beliefs, but I was having a problem sorting out what you posted on this.

I'm also unclear as to the distinction you're making between salvation and regeneration. Couldn't those two things come almost simultaneously? I have always heard people describe their "born again" experience (regeneration) as that moment that they believed they were saved.

[Billyray]

I have said on multiple occasions now that salvation comes when a person repents and places his faith in Christ. But there still seems to be some confusion so I will insert it into the list that I provided above.

In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is 1) election/predestination (in Christ), 2) Atonement 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance)[--->SALVATION], 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)

[Libby]

Found this, which seems a little more straight forward.


The debate over ordo salutis is most keenly developed between the Reformed and Arminian systems.

In the Reformed tradition, the ordo salutis is election / predestination, followed by evangelism, regeneration, conversion, justification, sanctification, and glorification.

In the Arminian camp, the ordo salutis is evangelism, followed by faith / election, repentance, regeneration, justification, perseverance, and glorification.

These stages may have various distinctions that are not represented here but serve to show the basic differences between the two systems. It should be noted that these need not be conceived as chronological steps - many of these stages are seen as distinctions within a single process that all (in one way or another) depend upon the work of God.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/ordo-salutis.html#ixzz31Zj3SUO3

[Billyray]

Couldn't those two things come almost simultaneously? I have always heard people describe their "born again" experience (regeneration) as that moment that they believed they were saved.
Couldn't those two things come almost simultaneously?
Yes in many (if not most cases) I think that is the case. Wayne Grudem describes this in the bottom half of the quote below--I included the entire quote in case you are interested


Wayne Grudem
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/regeneration_grudem.html

C. In This Sense of “Regeneration,” It Comes Before Saving Faith

Using the verses quoted above, we have defined regeneration to be the act of God awakening spiritual life within us, bringing us from spiritual death to spiritual life. On this definition, it is natural to understand that regeneration comes before saving faith. It is in fact this work of God that gives us the spiritual ability to respond to God in faith. However, when we say that it comes “before” saving faith, it is important to remember that they usually come so close together that it will ordinarily seem to us that they are happening at the same time. As God addresses the effective call of the gospel to us, he regenerates us and we respond in faith and repentance to this call. So from our perspective it is hard to tell any difference in time, especially because regeneration is a spiritual work that we cannot perceive with our eyes or even understand with our minds.

Yet there are several p***ages that tell us that this secret, hidden work of God in our spirits does in fact come before we respond to God in saving faith (though often it may be only seconds before we respond). When talking about regeneration with Nicodemus, Jesus said, “Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God” (John 3:5). Now we enter the kingdom of God when we become Christians at conversion. But Jesus says that we have to be born “of the Spirit” before we can do that.7 Our inability to come to Christ on our own, without an initial work of God within us, is also emphasized when Jesus says, “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him” (John 6:44), and “No one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father” (John 6:65). This inward act of regeneration is described beautifully when Luke says of Lydia, “The Lord opened her heart to give heed to what was said by Paul” (Acts 16:14). First the Lord opened her heart, then she was able to give heed to Paul’s preaching and to respond in faith.

By contrast, Paul tells us, “The man without the Spirit (literally, the “natural man”) does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned” (1 Cor. 2:14 NIV). He also says of people apart from Christ, “no one understands, No one seeks for God” (Rom. 3:11).

The solution to this spiritual deadness and inability to respond only comes when God gives us new life within. “But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead through our tresp***es made us alive together with Christ” (Eph. 2:4–5). Paul also says, “When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ” (Col. 2:13 NIV).8

The idea that regeneration comes before saving faith is not always understood by evangelicals today. Sometimes people will even say something like, “If you believe in Christ as your Savior, then (after you believe) you will be born again.” But Scripture itself never says anything like that. This new birth is viewed by Scripture as something that God does within us in order to enable us to believe.

The reason that evangelicals often think that regeneration comes after saving faith is that they see the results (love for God and his Word, and turning from sin) after people come to faith, and they think that regeneration must therefore have come after saving faith. Yet here we must decide on the basis of what Scripture tells us, because regeneration itself is not something we see or know about directly: “The wind ****s where it wills, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know whence it comes or whither it goes; so it is with every one who is born of the Spirit” (John 3:8).

Because Christians often tend to focus on the results of regeneration, rather than the hidden spiritual act of God itself, some evangelical statements of faith have contained wording that suggests that regeneration comes after saving faith. So, for example, the statement of faith of the Evangelical Free Church of America (which has been adapted by a number of other evangelical organizations) says,
We believe that the true Church is composed of all such persons who through saving faith in Jesus Christ have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit and are united together in the body of Christ of which He is the Head. (paragraph 8)

Here the word “regeneration” apparently means the outward evidence of regeneration that is seen in a changed life, evidence that certainly does come after saving faith. Thus “being born again” is thought of not in terms of the initial impartation of new life, but in terms of the total life change that results from that impartation. If the term “regeneration” is understood in this way, then it would be true that regeneration comes after saving faith.

Nevertheless, if we are to use language that closely conforms to the actual wording of Scripture, it would be better to restrict the word “regeneration” to the instantaneous, initial work of God in which he imparts spiritual life to us. Then we can emphasize that we do not see regeneration itself but only the results of it in our lives, and that faith in Christ for salvation is the first result that we see. In fact, we can never know that we have been regenerated until we come to faith in Christ, for that is the outward evidence of this hidden, inward work of God. Once we do come to saving faith in Christ, we know that we have been born again.

By way of application, we should realize that the explanation of the gospel message in Scripture does not take the form of a command, “Be born again and you will be saved,” but rather, “Believe in Jesus Christ and you will be saved.”9 This is the consistent pattern in the preaching of the gospel throughout the book of Acts, and also in the descriptions of the gospel given in the Epistles.

[Libby]

I have said on multiple occasions now that salvation comes when a person repents and places his faith in Christ. But there still seems to be some confusion so I will insert it into the list that I provided above.

Yes, but couldn't those last steps (as I mentioned above) happen almost simultaneously? It did with Paul on the Road to Damascus. So, separating out regeneration from salvation seems a bit nitpicky, is what I'm saying.


In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is 1) election/predestination (in Christ), 2) Atonement 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance)[--->SALVATION], 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)

[Libby]

Ah, thank you! I didn't see this before my last post.

[Billyray]

Found this, which seems a little more straight forward.
In the Reformed tradition, the ordo salutis is election / predestination, followed by evangelism, regeneration, conversion, justification, sanctification, and glorification.


In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is 1) election/predestination (in Christ), 2) Atonement 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance)[--->SALVATION], 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)
They are identical lists with the exception of "atonement" in the list that I gave you which your list does not have and evangelism is split into gospel call and inward call.

[Libby]

John 3
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’
8 The wind ****s wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

You have asked a lot question about being born again (regeneration), tell me what Jesus says this is like?

Yes, I'm very familiar with this and especially that last verse. I know that Calvinists use this as one of their proof texts for God "doing as he pleases" and regenerating whom he pleases.

The "wind" is the Holy Spirit, yes? Will have to find some commentary on this.

[Billyray]

Yes, but couldn't those last steps (as I mentioned above) happen almost simultaneously? It did with Paul on the Road to Damascus. So, separating out regeneration from salvation seems a bit nitpicky, is what I'm saying.
See post #287

[Libby]

They are identical lists with the exception of "atonement" in the list that I gave you which your list does not have and evangelism is split into gospel call and inward call.

Yes, I was getting kind of frustrated with this "order of salvation" business, because I found several different lists...some had more things on it, like yours, that I had not seen on other lists.

[Libby]

See post #287

Thanks...already done.

[Billyray]

Yes, I'm very familiar with this and especially that last verse. I know that Calvinists use this as one of their proof texts for God "doing as he pleases" and regenerating whom he pleases.
John 3
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’
8 The wind ****s wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

So can you tell me what Jesus says that being born again is like?
Can a person even see the kingdom of God--let alone enter it--without being born again?

[Libby]

John 3
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’
8 The wind ****s wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

So can you tell me what Jesus says that being born again is like?
Can a person even see the kingdom of God--let alone enter it--without being born again?

No, they cannot.

[Billyray]

Now tie this in with the verses in John 6. A person can't (is unable) to come to Christ until God draws them. This indicates that God has to change the person in some way in order (to make him able) to come to Christ. And don't forget the next phrase and those who are drawn ARE raised. If all are drawn then all will be raised and we both know that this is not the case.

[Billyray]

No, they cannot.
8 The wind ****s wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

Notice Jesus describes being born again like the wind "you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going". Notice he doesn't say repent and have faith and you will be born again--in that case there would be a very specific formula that anyone could see--but that is not what Christ says.

[Libby]

Now tie this in with the verses in John 6. A person can't (is unable) to come to Christ until God draws them. This indicates that God has to change the person in some way in order (to make him able) to come to Christ. And don't forget the next phrase and those who are drawn ARE raised. If all are drawn then all will be raised and we both know that this is not the case.

I don't think the "drawing" is, necessarily, creating a "change" within man...at least, not the kind of change that Calvinists consider necessary, before man can receive God. We talked about this, before, at length.

[Libby]

8 The wind ****s wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

Notice Jesus describes being born again like the wind "you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going". Notice he doesn't say repent and have faith and you will be born again--in that case there would be a very specific formula that anyone could see--but that is not what Christ says.

But, Jesus does say that, in other places. Definitely, we must repent and have faith (believe).

Mark 1:14 Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

[Billyray]

I don't think the "drawing" is, necessarily, creating a "change" within man...at least, not the kind of change that Calvinists consider necessary, before man can receive God. We talked about this, before, at length.
If a person can't come to Christ (i.e. he is unable) prior to being drawn by the Father then how would you characterize this?

[Billyray]

But, Jesus does say that, in other places. Definitely, we must repent and have faith (believe).


Of course we must repent and place our faith in Christ (conversion) but tell me what Jesus says about being born again in John 3

[Libby]

Of course we must repent and place our faith in Christ (conversion) but tell me what Jesus says about being born again in John 3

About not entering the Kingdom of God, you mean? Where is the Kingdom of God? Isn't it in heaven? Isn't he talking about not entering the Kingdom of God (after we die), unless we have been "born again"? That's how I am reading it..

[Libby]

If a person can't come to Christ (i.e. he is unable) prior to being drawn by the Father then how would you characterize this?

I told you, I see it more as "unaware", than "unable". Christ's drawing brings awareness to him and his gift of salvation.

I remember, so well, a stark awareness that came to me, over on CARM, after I had been there for awhile. I was having a conversation with Joe (Saint Grandpa, who no longer posts there) and he made the "requirement" for salvation so very simple (believe in Christ and you will be saved). I had been going through all of these complicated arguments (kind of like we are doing now) trying to "figure out" the "truth"...and when he said that, I said, to him, "really? that's it?" And, something deep within me knew that he was telling me the truth. That was about six years ago. I still hold that truth, even though my ego, sometimes, wanders down some strange "intellectual" paths. That moment of awareness is forever with me.

That's how I see God's "drawing"....a stark awareness of truth (of Him and what he has done for us), that you didn't have before. A very "awake" moment or moments that you don't forget. Like someone turned on the light.

I guess you could think of that as "enabling", as well. It did "enable" me to see something much more clearly than I ever had before.

[Billyray]

Where is the Kingdom of God? Isn't it in heaven? Isn't he talking about not entering the Kingdom of God (after we die), unless we have been "born again"? That's how I am reading it..
Libby I get the sense that you are trying to get out from what Jesus say about being born again. And how does this question relate to this?

[Libby]

Libby I get the sense that you are trying to get out from what Jesus say about being born again. And how does this question relate to this?

It relates directly to the verses that you quoted. I get the feeling that you are trying to lead me where you want to go, with this.

Where is the Kingdom of God? Is it not in heaven?

Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

[Billyray]

I told you, I see it more as "unaware", than "unable". Christ's drawing brings awareness to him and his gift of salvation.

I remember, so well, a stark awareness that came to me, over on CARM, after I had been there for awhile. I was having a conversation with Joe (Saint Grandpa, who no longer posts there) and he made the "requirement" for salvation so very simple (believe in Christ and you will be saved). I had been going through all of these complicated arguments (kind of like we are doing now) trying to "figure out" the "truth"...and when he said that, I said, to him, "really? that's it?" And, something deep within me knew that he was telling me the truth. That was about six years ago. I still hold that truth, even though my ego, sometimes, wanders down some strange "intellectual" paths. That moment of awareness is forever with me.

That's how I see God's "drawing"....a stark awareness of truth (of Him and what he has done for us), that you didn't have before. A very "awake" moment or moments that you don't forget. Like someone turned on the light.

I guess you could think of that as "enabling", as well. It did "enable" me to see something much more clearly than I ever had before.
Lot's of people are aware of Christ and his teachings but are unable to come to Christ unless they are drawn by the Father. Something must drastically change in that person because before they are drawn they are unable and after they are drawn they are not only able but they come to Christ and are raised. One thing you are forgetting in all of this is that all who are drawn ARE raised. If God drew every single person then every single person would be raised and this is not the case.

[Billyray]

It relates directly to the verses that you quoted. I get the feeling that you are trying to lead me where you want to go, with this.

I am not leading you anywhere except trying to keep you from changing the subject. So what did Jesus say about being born again? Did Jesus say that in order to be born again you must repent have faith and then you will be born again?

[Libby]

Lot's of people are aware of Christ and his teachings but are unable to come to Christ unless they are drawn by the Father. Something must drastically change in that person because before they are drawn they are unable and after they are drawn they are not only able but they come to Christ and are raised. One thing you are forgetting in all of this is that all who are drawn ARE raised. If God drew every single person then every single person would be raised and this is not the case.

Billy, you are inserting your own understanding on that verse. It doesn't say all who are drawn will be raised. It says, no one can come to him unless the Father draws him...and I will raise them up on the last day (he will raise those who come to him...those who respond).

[Libby]

I am not leading you anywhere except trying to keep you from changing the subject. So what did Jesus say about being born again? Did Jesus say that in order to be born again you must repent have faith and then you will be born again?

He doesn't say it in THAT verse, but he certainly DID say it, in other places.

Do no accuse me of changing the subject. I have not done that, at all.

You haven't answered my question about the Kingdom of God. What does that mean to you?

[Billyray]

He doesn't say it in THAT verse, but he certainly DID say it, in other places.

And what did he say exactly in John 3 about being born again?


Do no accuse me of changing the subject. I have not done that, at all.
You are trying to change the subject.

[Libby]

Something must drastically change in that person because before they are drawn they are unable and after they are drawn they are not only able

Yes, their minds and hearts are made aware of the truth of what Christ did for us. People who are simply aware of Jesus and his teachings, are not, necessarily, aware of the sacrifice and meaning of that. Or they simply reject it.

[Billyray]

Billy, you are inserting your own understanding on that verse. It doesn't say all who are drawn will be raised. It says, no one can come to him unless the Father draws him...and I will raise them up on the last day (he will raise those who come to him...those who respond).
John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Who are "them" in this verse?

[Libby]

And what did he say exactly in John 3 about being born again?

We both know what he said. You cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven without being born again. We are now trying to determine what, exactly, that means. My question to you is on point and NOT changing the subject. It simply isn't going in the direction you wish.

[Libby]

John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Who are "them" in this verse?

Those who are drawn and respond.

[Billyray]

Those who are drawn and respond.
John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

So the first "them" is different than the second "them" in this sentence?

Where does it say that God draws ALL men and but only those who respond will be raised in this verse?

[Billyray]

We both know what he said. You cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven without being born again. We are now trying to determine what, exactly, that means. My question to you is on point and NOT changing the subject. It simply isn't going in the direction you wish.
You are changing the subject, if you want to know then simply look it up.

What does Jesus say about being born again in this section of scripture.

[Libby]

You are changing the subject, if you want to know then simply look it up.

What does Jesus say about being born again in this section of scripture.

What the heck? I've answered your question twice, now. I am supposed to continue answering YOUR questions, but you don't have to answer mine? I want to know what YOU believe the "Kingdom of God" means. Remember the importance of defining terms?

What happened to your claim that you would "gladly answer any of my questions"?

[Billyray]

What the heck? I've answered your question twice, now.
Here was your last response. Hardly an answer to my question.

We both know what he said. You cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven without being born again. We are now trying to determine what, exactly, that means. My question to you is on point and NOT changing the subject. It simply isn't going in the direction you wish.
I wish you would stay on task and actually come to terms what being born again (regeneration) means. We haven't got to that point yet.


What happened to your claim that you would "gladly answer any of my questions"?
I will after you finish answering what Jesus said about being born again (regeneration).

These verses are where Jesus explains being born again (regeneration). Does this go along with your believe that a person repents and then places his faith in Christ then he will be born again?

[Billyray]

I am not leading you anywhere except trying to keep you from changing the subject. So what did Jesus say about being born again? Did Jesus say that in order to be born again you must repent have faith and then you will be born again?

He doesn't say it in THAT verse, but he certainly DID say it, in other places. . .

Which other verses are you referring to exactly?

[Libby]

Which other verses are you referring to exactly?

Mark 1:15, Jesus, himself, says "repent and believe". John the Baptist said it, Paul said it.

Are you going to answer my question about the Kingdom of Heaven? Why are you so hesitant to answer that simple question?

[Libby]

Here was your last response. Hardly an answer to my question.

You asked what Jesus said about being born again. I gave you almost a direct quote.


I wish you would stay on task and actually come to terms what being born again (regeneration) means. We haven't got to that point yet.

I know what it means and it is not the same as God's "drawing". God's drawing can be the beginning stages of regeneration, for some, if they respond positively to the drawing. If they respond in faith and belief.


These verses are where Jesus explains being born again (regeneration). Does this go along with your believe that a person repents and then places his faith in Christ then he will be born again?

Regeneration is something God is doing to us, if we respond positively to His drawing.

[Libby]

Okay, here is John 3, again.

John 3
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’
8 The wind ****s wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

[Billyray]

Mark 1:15, Jesus, himself, says "repent and believe". John the Baptist said it, Paul said it.
Mark 1:15 “The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!”

And where does is say anything about regeneration (born again) in this p***age?




Are you going to answer my question about the Kingdom of Heaven? Why are you so hesitant to answer that simple question?
I am hesitant to answer your question because I want to stick on the topic at hand which is regeneration (born again). You are doing exactly what BigJ does by trying to change direction to another topic and when I bite the discussion moves to a completely different area. Being born again (regeneration) is very important and is one of the KEY differences between Calvinism and Arminianism.

[Billyray]

Okay, here is John 3, again.

John 3
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’
8 The wind ****s wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
If being born again has to do with a prescribed sequence such as repentance and placing your faith in Christ which is then immediately followed by being born again then it would be completely opposite of what Christ has told us HIMSELF about being born again. So you know that being born again is not this prescribed repentance and faith results in being born again.

[Libby]

Mark 1:15 “The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!”

And where does is say anything about regeneration (born again) in this p***age?

It doesn't, but you were trying to claim that Jesus never said those were prequisites for being born again. I was just showing you that Jesus (and others) DID say that. I am not the only one who goes off on other subjects. As a matter of fact, I'm usually following your lead. I am responding to things you put out there, so don't get all huffy about "me" going off topic, when you are the one leading the way.


I am hesitant to answer your question because I want to stick on the topic at hand which is regeneration (born again). You are doing exactly what BigJ does by trying to change direction to another topic and when I bite the discussion moves to a completely different area. Being born again (regeneration) is very important and is one of the KEY differences between Calvinism and Arminianism.

Nope, I am not at all trying to change direction. I'm just trying to get you to define ONE term. It's important to me, because of the "timeline" or order of salvation, that we were discussing last night.

[Libby]

If being born again has to do with a prescribed sequence such as repentance and placing your faith in Christ which is then immediately followed by being born again then it would be completely opposite of what Christ has told us HIMSELF about being born again. So you know that being born again is not this prescribed repentance and faith results in being born again.

Where, exactly, in John 3, do you see an "order"? I am not seeing that.

At this point, I'm not even sure there is an "order" that is exactly the same for everyone.

But, I do know we have to respond to his drawing, before anything is going to happen.

[Billyray]

Where, exactly, in John 3, do you see an "order"? I am not seeing that.

There isn't an order that is the point. But you believe that a person does a prescribed list and this results in being born again. Nothing like this is described in this verse and this verse completely conflicts with your belief.

[Billyray]

W
But, I do know we have to respond to his drawing, before anything is going to happen.
The first thing that happens is that you have to be changed--if there isn't any change then you will never come to Christ. And this is not of yourself--it is a gift of God.

[Libby]

There isn't an order that is the point. But you believe that a person does a prescribed list and this results in being born again. Nothing like this is described in this verse and this verse completely conflicts with your belief.

I just said, I was coming to the conclusion that the order is a little different for everyone. But, I know we do have to respond to God's drawing...or nothing happens.

John 3 does not conflict with that belief.

[Billyray]

I just said, I was coming to the conclusion that the order is a little different for everyone.
I misinterpreted what you were asking about order thinking you were speaking about faith plus repentance leads to being born again.

Now that I think that I understand what you are asking--order is important and it doesn't differ for everyone. I am not sure why you think that from anything that we have discussed. Can you explain how you came to that conclusion?

[Billyray]

I just said, I was coming to the conclusion that the order is a little different for everyone. But, I know we do have to respond to God's drawing...or nothing happens.

If you are one that he draws. If you aren't then you will never come to Christ. For some reason you believe that the Father draws ALL men to Christ and you or Alan haven't given me any proof of this thus far.

[Libby]

I misinterpreted what you were asking about order thinking you were speaking about faith plus repentance leads to being born again.

Now that I think that I understand what you are asking--order is important and it doesn't differ for everyone. I am not sure why you think that from anything that we have discussed. Can you explain how you came to that conclusion?

I said that, because I was thinking about the "repentance" process. In my listening to other Christians, I know some who were immediately repentant of their sins, as soon as they gave their life to Christ. For others, it took awhile to sink in and there was a lapse of time, between acceptance and full repentance.

That's just one example.

[Libby]

If you are one that he draws. If you aren't then you will never come to Christ. For some reason you believe that the Father draws ALL men to Christ and you or Alan haven't given me any proof of this thus far.

Actually, we've given you at least a couple of verses (may have been more).

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

1 Tim 2:3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

[Billyray]

I said that, because I was thinking about the "repentance" process. In my listening to other Christians, I know some who were immediately repentant of their sins, as soon as they gave their life to Christ. For others, it took awhile to sink in and there was a lapse of time, between acceptance and full repentance.

That's just one example.
And if both are in Christ regeneration preceded faith and repentance. And the order is the same. So I am still not sure why you say that the order is different.

[Libby]

And if both are in Christ regeneration preceded faith and repentance. And the order is the same. So I am still not sure why you say that the order is different.

That is your belief, Billy. I believe some amount of faith has to come before regeneration.

[Billyray]

John 12 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

John 6:37 "All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away."
John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."
John 12:32 "And I, when I am lifted up[g] from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Christ made all of the above statements. Summarize them for me such that they are all in agreement.

[Libby]

John 6:37 "All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away."
John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."
John 12:32 "And I, when I am lifted up[g] from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Christ made all of the above statements. Summarize them for me such that they are all in agreement.

God draws everyone.

Some will accept his calling...others will not.

Through his omniscience he knows in advance who will turn to him.

He will raise them up on the last day.

[Billyray]

That is your belief, Billy. I believe some amount of faith has to come before regeneration.



Easton's Bible Dictionary

Kingdom of God
(Matt. 6:33; Mark 1:14, 15; Luke 4:43) ="kingdom of Christ" (Matt. 13:41; 20:21) ="kingdom of Christ and of God" (Eph. 5:5) ="kingdom of David" (Mark 11:10) ="the kingdom" (Matt. 8:12; 13:19) ="kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 3:2; 4:17; 13:41), all denote the same thing under different aspects, viz.:(1) Christ's mediatorial authority, or his rule on the earth; (2) the blessings and advantages of all kinds that flow from this rule; (3) the subjects of this kingdom taken collectively, or the Church

John 3:3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.


A person cannot see (let alone enter) the kingdom of God UNLESS they are born again. Salvation takes place when you repent and place your faith in Christ and that point you become a member of God's kingdom. Therefore regeneration must precede this.

[Billyray]

God draws everyone.

None of the verses say that the Father draws everyone.


Some will accept his calling...others will not.

Where in these verses does it say that some will accept and others will not?


He will raise them up on the last day.
John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

The same "them" that are drawn?

[Billyray]

1 Tim 2:3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
This verse says nothing about the Father drawing people to Christ. Not sure why you guys keep bringing this one up.

[Billyray]

God draws everyone.
You keep making the claim that the Father draws everyone to Christ. There are a many who have never heard of Christ. So why do you continue to make the claim that ALL are drawn to Christ?

[Libby]

This verse says nothing about the Father drawing people to Christ. Not sure why you guys keep bringing this one up.

Because, it logically follows that, if God wants all people to be saved, He would draw them ALL, since that is a requirement of salvation.

What do you do with the verse that says very directly that Christ will draw all men to himself?

[Libby]

You keep making the claim that the Father draws everyone to Christ. There are a many who have never heard of Christ. So why do you continue to make the claim that ALL are drawn to Christ?

I leave that to God. He made the claim, so there must be a way He is doing what He said He would do.

[Libby]

Can you give me any good reason why God would not draw all people to himself?

[Billyray]

Because, it logically follows that, if God wants all people to be saved, He would draw them ALL, since that is a requirement of salvation.

But it says absolutely nothing about the Father drawing all men to Christ. You simply ***ume it into the text.


What do you do with the verse that says very directly that Christ will draw all men to himself?
John 6:37 "All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away."
John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."
John 12:32 "And I, when I am lifted up[g] from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

The only way to accept all three statements by Christ so that they are not in conflict is that "all people" = all those drawn by the Father OR "all people" refers to all people groups both Jews and Gentiles.

[Billyray]

Can you give me any good reason why God would not draw all people to himself?
You changed things a bit here. Do you mean the Father drawing all men to Christ?

[Libby]

But it says absolutely nothing about the Father drawing all men to Christ. You simply ***ume it into the text.

John 6:37 "All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away."
John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."
John 12:32 "And I, when I am lifted up[g] from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

The only way to accept all three statements by Christ so that they are not in conflict is that "all people" = all those drawn by the Father OR "all people" refers to all people groups both Jews and Gentiles.

I don't think that's the only way to accept all three verses. I take them at face value. All means all. All will be drawn and those who respond will be raised on the last day.

[Libby]

You changed things a bit here. Do you mean the Father drawing all men to Christ?

To Christ, yes. I don't see a big difference. Christ is with the Father.

[Billyray]

I don't think that's the only way to accept all three verses. I take them at face value. All means all.
Fine. Let's test your theory of ALL. You believe that Christ draws every single person to himself. Yet not everyone has heard of Christ. This fact alone disproves your belief. How do you explain that?

[Billyray]

To Christ, yes. I don't see a big difference. Christ is with the Father.
Can a person be saved by placing his faith in the Father? Or does salvation come when you place you faith in Christ to save you?

[Libby]

Can a person be saved by placing his faith in the Father? Or does salvation come when you place you faith in Christ to save you?

In Christ. He is the way through which we are saved.

[Billyray]

In Christ. He is the way through which we are saved.
Right. So when you said that the Father draws all to the [Father]--ALL here doesn't mean ALL being drawn to Christ?

[Libby]

But, when we are drawn to Christ, we are drawn to the Father and the Holy Spirit, as well, right? When we put our faith in Christ, we also put our faith in "GOD", who has provided a means of salvation for all who accept.

[Libby]

Right. So when you said that the Father draws all to the [Father]--ALL here doesn't mean ALL being drawn to Christ?

Yes, of course. That's why I said, I didn't see a big difference. We are being drawn to God, through faith in Jesus Christ.

[Libby]

Billy, can I ask you something about perseverance? It's totally off topic for this thread, but Dr. Geisler said something about how Calvinists can't even be sure of their own salvation, because they believe you must persevere to the end. If you don't, you were never saved. Is that an accurate portrayal of your belief on perseverance of the saints?

It reminded me a lot of the LDS belief about perseverance to the end.

[Billyray]

But, when we are drawn to Christ, we are drawn to the Father and the Holy Spirit, as well, right? When we put our faith in Christ, we also put our faith in "GOD", who has provided a means of salvation for all who accept.
So I take it that you mean that the Father draws ALL men to Christ NOT that the Father draws ALL men to the [Father]. OK if that is the case and we know that not everyone has even heard of Christ how can you maintain that the Father draws ALL men to Christ?

[Billyray]

That is your belief, Billy. I believe some amount of faith has to come before regeneration.



Easton's Bible Dictionary

Kingdom of God
(Matt. 6:33; Mark 1:14, 15; Luke 4:43) ="kingdom of Christ" (Matt. 13:41; 20:21) ="kingdom of Christ and of God" (Eph. 5:5) ="kingdom of David" (Mark 11:10) ="the kingdom" (Matt. 8:12; 13:19) ="kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 3:2; 4:17; 13:41), all denote the same thing under different aspects, viz.:(1) Christ's mediatorial authority, or his rule on the earth; (2) the blessings and advantages of all kinds that flow from this rule; (3) the subjects of this kingdom taken collectively, or the Church

John 3:3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.


A person cannot see (let alone enter) the kingdom of God UNLESS they are born again. Salvation takes place when you repent and place your faith in Christ and that point you become a member of God's kingdom. Therefore regeneration must precede this.

Comments?

[Billyray]

Yes, of course. That's why I said, I didn't see a big difference. We are being drawn to God, through faith in Jesus Christ.
The difference is that you are not saved by placing your faith in the Father--you are saved when you place your faith in Christ. This is a big difference even though you don't seem to think so. Since ALL men have not even heard of Christ how do you continue to say that the Father draws ALL men to Christ?

[Libby]

So I take it that you mean that the Father draws ALL men to Christ NOT that the Father draws ALL men to the [Father]. OK if that is the case and we know that not everyone has even heard of Christ how can you maintain that the Father draws ALL men to Christ?

Because he says he is and I believe him.

[Libby]

John 3:3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.


A person cannot see (let alone enter) the kingdom of God UNLESS they are born again. Salvation takes place when you repent and place your faith in Christ and that point you become a member of God's kingdom. Therefore regeneration must precede this.

Comments?

No, no comments, right now. Maybe later.

[Libby]

Yes, of course. That's why I said, I didn't see a big difference. We are being drawn to God, through faith in Jesus Christ.

Do you disagree with what I wrote here?

[Billyray]

Because he says he is and I believe him.
You believe in Him. Great. But how can you believe that the Father has drawn ALL men to Christ when not every single person has even heard of Christ?

[Billyray]

John 6
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

Why didn't the guys in verse 36 believe according to Jesus?

[Billyray]

Do you disagree with what I wrote here?
Here is what you wrote.

We are being drawn to God, through faith in Jesus Christ.
"We are being drawn to the Father when we place our faith in Christ."

Where did you come up with this theory?

[Libby]

Here is what you wrote.

"We are being drawn to the Father when we place our faith in Christ."

Where did you come up with this theory?

Billy, I think I mentioned on another thread (although, you may not have seen it) that I went to see the movie "Heaven is for Real". It was a beautiful movie (and a true story) about a little boy's trip to Heaven.

I enjoyed the movie, so much, that I decided I wanted to read the book. I heard that the book had many more details than the movie. So, a friend of mine, who had just bought the book, offered to loan it to me. I just this minute finished it, as a matter of fact, and it was even better than the movie!

Anyway, this little boy, who was only four years old, experienced this amazing trip to heaven, when he was in surgery (and almost died) with a burst appendix. In the book, on Good Friday, a few months after the surgery, his dad asked him if he knew why Jesus had died on the cross. The little boy answered him, very simply..."Jesus died so that we could go live with his Daddy".

The weird thing is...I didn't read that part until after I had posted what I did, to you...so, I can't really say that's where I got the idea. That's just what I 'know' in my heart, and when I read that little boy's statement, I knew that it was right on. I think you, surely, must know that, as well.

[Billyray]

Billy, I think I mentioned on another thread (although, you may not have seen it) that I went to see the movie "Heaven is for Real". It was a beautiful movie (and a true story) about a little boy's trip to Heaven.

I enjoyed the movie, so much, that I decided I wanted to read the book. I heard that the book had many more details than the movie. So, a friend of mine, who had just bought the book, offered to loan it to me. I just this minute finished it, as a matter of fact, and it was even better than the movie!

Anyway, this little boy, who was only four years old, experienced this amazing trip to heaven, when he was in surgery (and almost died) with a burst appendix. In the book, on Good Friday, a few months after the surgery, his dad asked him if he knew why Jesus had died on the cross. The little boy answered him, very simply..."Jesus died so that we could go live with his Daddy".

The weird thing is...I didn't read that part until after I had posted what I did, to you...so, I can't really say that's where I got the idea. That's just what I 'know' in my heart, and when I read that little boy's statement, I knew that it was right on. I think you, surely, must know that, as well.
I read the book just after it came out but it has nothing to do with what you said "We are being drawn to the Father when we place our faith in Christ."

[Libby]

I read the book just after it came out but it has nothing to do with what you said "We are being drawn to the Father when we place our faith in Christ."

Oh, but it does...exactly.

Glad you got to read the book. Did you like it?

[Billyray]

Oh, but it does...exactly.

Glad you got to read the book. Did you like it?
Yea I thought it was good.

[Libby]

Very good.

I think I'm done with "theorizing" for awhile. I know what I need to know, right now (intuitively). This heady stuff, sometimes confuses me and I really don't like that feeling. I need to step away from it, for awhile, at least.

I really appreciate yours (and Alan's) willingness to go through this with me. It was something I needed to do, because I was allowing Calvinism to become a big stumbling block....really big....it drove me from the church for awhile.

[Apologette]

You believe in Him. Great. But how can you believe that the Father has drawn ALL men to Christ when not every single person has even heard of Christ?

Apparently they do not believe God is Sovereign, and that His drawing is contingent upon human response - putting men in the drivers' seats. If God calls ALL men, why on earth would Jesus have stated in Jn. 6:44:

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

There is the General Call warning all men to come to Christ or be lost; and there is the particular call, where God draws the elect to salvation in Christ. Those who are drawn know the Master's voice AND WILL NOT FOLLOW ANOTHER.

Ephesians 1 is very clear: "11 In him we were also chosen,[e] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. "

Again, God is Sovereign, not men.

[The Pheonix]

Free will has been tossed around a lot recently on this board. The problem is that unless a person gives the definition of how he is using this word it can cause a lot of confusion.

One person may use the term "free will" to simply mean making willing choices that the person wants to make.

Another person may use the term "free will" to mean the ability to make any choice at any time independent of a person's nature and independent of God's will.

Perhaps posters could give us some definitions of how they are using this term and then we could proceed to discuss this issue.If I cannot refuse to accept God, then I cannot chose "too" accept God.

[Billyray]

If I cannot refuse to accept God, then I cannot chose "too" accept God.

Can you come to Christ without being drawn by the Father?

[Libby]

Apparently they do not believe God is Sovereign, and that His drawing is contingent upon human response - putting men in the drivers' seats. If God calls ALL men, why on earth would Jesus have stated in Jn. 6:44:

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

There is the General Call warning all men to come to Christ or be lost; and there is the particular call, where God draws the elect to salvation in Christ. Those who are drawn know the Master's voice AND WILL NOT FOLLOW ANOTHER.

Ephesians 1 is very clear: "11 In him we were also chosen,[e] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. "

Again, God is Sovereign, not men.

I believe God is completely sovereign, but I also know that he allows us our will and freedom of choice, otherwise, HE would be responsible for our unbelief, not us.

There is nothing in the verse about God's drawing that says he draws only a few and they will ALL come to Him. That is inferred (inserted) by Calvinists.

[Billyray]

I believe God is completely sovereign, but I also know that he allows us our will and freedom of choice, otherwise, HE would be responsible for our unbelief, not us.

There is nothing in the verse about God's drawing that says he draws only a few and they will ALL come to Him. That is inferred (inserted) by Calvinists.

Jn. 6:44:"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

Who are "them" in this verse Libby?

[Libby]

Jn. 6:44:"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

Who are "them" in this verse Libby?

I've answered this already, Billy. The first "them" are those who are being drawn. The second "them" are, obviously, those who turn to Christ.

[Billyray]

I've answered this already, Billy. The first "them" are those who are being drawn. The second "them" are, obviously, those who turn to Christ.
Jn. 6:44:"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

The verse says no such thing. There is nothing in that verse to suggest that the first "them" is a completely different group of people than the second "them". In fact the first part of the sentence clearly indicates that the first "them" is not ALL men. You are changing what the verse says to conform to your preconceived beliefs.

What message is Christ trying to share in this verse?

[Libby]

Jn. 6:44:"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

The verse says no such thing. There is nothing in that verse to suggest that the first "them" is a completely different group of people than the second "them". In fact the first part of the sentence clearly indicates that the first "them" is not ALL men. You are changing what the verse says to conform to your preconceived beliefs.

What message is Christ trying to share in this verse?

Where, in the first part, does it "clearly" indicate that the meaning is not "all men"?

And, yes, the Bible does give us reason to believe that he is drawing all men, when at least a couple of other verses clearly say that he is.

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

[Billyray]

Where, in the first part, does it "clearly" indicate that the meaning is not "all men"?

And, yes, the Bible does give us reason to believe that he is drawing all men, when at least a couple of other verses clearly say that he is.

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."
Jn. 6:44:"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day"

What message is Christ trying to convey with this verse?

[Billyray]

Where, in the first part, does it "clearly" indicate that the meaning is not "all men"?

Jn. 6:44:"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them"

"No one can come to me" indicates that there is a group that can't come to Christ and the remaining part of the verse tells us about those who can come to Christ--those who are drawn.

[alanmolstad]

all can come...nothing is stopping anyone but they themselves...

God is not the cause of people not coming to Christ....shame on anyone who thinks God is to blame....

[Libby]

Jn. 6:44:"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day"

What message is Christ trying to convey with this verse?

The basic message, as is the whole New Testament, is that salvation is through Jesus Christ. The Father facilitates that by drawing us to him and he will raise us up on the last day.

[Libby]

Jn. 6:44:"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them"

"No one can come to me" indicates that there is a group that can't come to Christ and the remaining part of the verse tells us about those who can come to Christ--those who are drawn.

It doesn't say anything about a particular "group", Billy. It simply says that the Father must, first, draw us. Other verses (such as the one I quoted) indicate he intends to "draw all men".

[Libby]

Really, we have been over this same territory several times. I don't really want to do an instant replay. We just see it a little differently, is all. I think it's an important difference, but the differences, in understanding, are not going to affect anyone's salvation.

[Billyray]

The basic message, as is the whole New Testament, is that salvation is through Jesus Christ. The Father facilitates that by drawing us to him and he will raise us up on the last day.
Jn. 6:44:"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day"

But you really didn't address this specific verse. If everyone can come why not simply say that anyone can come and that this is helped along by the Father?

[Billyray]

Really, we have been over this same territory several times. I don't really want to do an instant replay. We just see it a little differently, is all. I think it's an important difference, but the differences, in understanding, are not going to affect anyone's salvation.
We have gone over this but you haven't given me a single verse in the entire Bible that says that the Father draws ALL men to Christ. And you haven't addressed the fact that many people haven't even heard about Christ so how can you even claim that ALL men have been drawn by the Father to Christ?


John 6
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

What reason did Christ give us to explain why the guys in verse 36 did not believe in Him?

[alanmolstad]

We have gone over this but you haven't given me a single verse in the entire Bible that says that the Father draws ALL men to Christ. And you haven't addressed the fact that many people haven't even heard about Christ so how can you even claim that ALL men have been drawn by the Father to Christ?


John 6
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

What reason did Christ give us to explain why the guys in verse 36 did not believe in Him?You might want to read the next verse....LOL:cool:

[Libby]

Jn. 6:44:"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day"

But you really didn't address this specific verse. If everyone can come why not simply say that anyone can come and that this is helped along by the Father?

I haven't said "everyone can come". I have said "everyone is drawn". Not everyone will come. God knows in advance who will come to Him.

And, yes, I have addressed your problem, by quoting a verse in the Bible (it IS a part of the Bible, as well!) that says very plainly that "all men will be drawn". Just because it doesn't say that, in the one verse you keep quoting, doesn't mean it's not in there.

Also, just because your favorite verse doesn't say "all", doesn't mean the intent is not "all". Neither does it say "a few", as you want to claim.

[Libby]

We have gone over this but you haven't given me a single verse in the entire Bible that says that the Father draws ALL men to Christ. And you haven't addressed the fact that many people haven't even heard about Christ so how can you even claim that ALL men have been drawn by the Father to Christ?


John 6
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

What reason did Christ give us to explain why the guys in verse 36 did not believe in Him?

Many will not believe, Billy. God knows in advance who will believe and come to Christ.

[Billyray]

I haven't said "everyone can come". I have said "everyone is drawn". Not everyone will come. . .
If everyone can't come to Jesus--as you say--then you have proven to yourself that this group does not include ALL men.

[alanmolstad]

If everyone can't come to Jesus--as you say--then you have proven to yourself that this group does not include ALL men.They "can" come......but the tears of Jesus were because they "won't" come....

[alanmolstad]

I haven't said "everyone can come". I have said "everyone is drawn". Not everyone will come. .
This is correct!

Good *** Libby!

[Libby]

They "can" come......but the tears of Jesus were because they "won't" come....

Yes, "won't" come...not "can't".

[Libby]

If everyone can't come to Jesus--as you say--then you have proven to yourself that this group does not include ALL men.

All will be drawn (as it says in John 12). Not all will come.

[Billyray]

All will be drawn (as it says in John 12).
John 12 DOESN'T say that the Father will draw ALL men to Christ.

BTW since ALL men have not heard about Jesus how can you possibly believe that the Father draws ALL men to Christ?

[Billyray]

They "can" come......but the tears of Jesus were because they "won't" come....
Jn. 6:44:"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day"

That is not what Christ says in John 6:44

[Billyray]

Many will not believe, Billy. God knows in advance who will believe and come to Christ.
You are absolutely right that many will not believe and God certainly know who will be saved. But this doesn't address my question.

John 6
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

What reason did Christ give us to explain why the guys in verse 36 did not believe in Him?

[Libby]

You are absolutely right that many will not believe and God certainly know who will be saved. But this doesn't address my question.

John 6
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

What reason did Christ give us to explain why the guys in verse 36 did not believe in Him?

They were not given by the Father.

This goes back to God's omniscience. He knows who will believe. Those are the ones who are given by the Father.

[Billyray]

They were not given by the Father.

This goes back to God's omniscience. He knows who will believe. Those are the ones who are given by the Father.
So you agree with me that the Father gives some men (but not ALL) to Christ and those who are given to Him WILL come to Christ.

[Libby]

So you agree with me that the Father gives some men (but not ALL) to Christ and those who are given to Him WILL come to Christ.

Yes, I agree with that.

It's just that I believe it has to do with God's foreknowledge (and not him picking and choosing for no reason).

[Billyray]

Yes, I agree with that.

It's just that I believe it has to do with God's foreknowledge (and not him picking and choosing for no reason).

I am not sure if you have thought this one through yet. But in case you have can you tell me how this works exactly other than just saying "foreknowledge"?

[Libby]

I am not sure if you have thought this one through yet. But in case you have can you tell me how this works exactly other than just saying "foreknowledge"?

I'm probably not going to have any better answer than you do, for why God would draw only "some" and not all.

All I know is, it has to be arranged so that man is responsible for his unbelief....not God.

God knows who will respond to his drawing and he chooses those people to give to Christ.

[Libby]

It seems like Calvinists are overly zealous in their wish to acknowledge God's sovereignty. In the process, they make him responsible for man's sin (especially the sin of unbelief).

[Billyray]

All I know is, it has to be arranged so that man is responsible for his unbelief....not God.

The basis for sending anyone to Hell is the fact that they did not keep the commandments. So God is just in sending everyone of us to Hell based on this fact alone. Just like a civil judge who punishes a person for breaking the law--the person who broke the law is guilty of his crime and is deserving of punishment. However a judge could in his mercy decide to let that person go even though he deserves punishment. God in His mercy saves some--but not all--even though all are deserving of punishment.

[Billyray]

It seems like Calvinists are overly zealous in their wish to acknowledge God's sovereignty. In the process, they make him responsible for man's sin (especially the sin of unbelief).
See my post above. Man is the one who breaks the commandments so man is responsible for his sin. For some reason you want to blame God for man's sins and I am not sure where you have come up with this unBiblical belief.

[Libby]

See my post above. Man is the one who breaks the commandments so man is responsible for his sin. For some reason you want to blame God for man's sins and I am not sure where you have come up with this unBiblical belief.

I think you better read my post again. I am NOT blaming God for man's sin. That is what I see as a result of Calvinist doctrine. In other words, that's what I perceive Calvinists as doing. It is the logical conclusion of Calvinist thinking.

[Libby]

The basis for sending anyone to Hell is the fact that they did not keep the commandments. So God is just in sending everyone of us to Hell based on this fact alone. Just like a civil judge who punishes a person for breaking the law--the person who broke the law is guilty of his crime and is deserving of punishment. However a judge could in his mercy decide to let that person go even though he deserves punishment. God in His mercy saves some--but not all--even though all are deserving of punishment.

God is a just God...and a very loving God. He does not simply pick and choose. Even the Bible says that he draws all men to himself. That he so loves "the world" that he gave his only begotten Son.

He doesn't pick and choose. He leaves that decision to us. That's the only fair and loving thing to do.

[Billyray]

I think you better read my post again. I am NOT blaming God for man's sin. That is what I see as a result of Calvinist doctrine. In other words, that's what I perceive Calvinists as doing. It is the logical conclusion of Calvinist thinking.
OK. Here is your post.

It seems like Calvinists are overly zealous in their wish to acknowledge God's sovereignty. In the process, they make him responsible for man's sin (especially the sin of unbelief).
Calvinists don't make God responsible for man's sin. Man is responsible for his sins. So why did you say "In the process, they make him responsible for man's sin ?

[Billyray]

God is a just God...
OK let's test what you said. If God is "just" what would be His response for someone who breaks His laws?



Merriam Webster Dictionary
1
a : having a basis in or conforming to fact or reason : reasonable <a just but not a generous decision>
b archaic : faithful to an original
c : conforming to a standard of correctness : proper <just proportions>
2
a (1) : acting or being in conformity with what is morally upright or good : righteous <a just war> (2) : being what is merited : deserved <a just punishment>
b : legally correct : lawful <just ***le to an estate>



Dictionary.com
JUST
adjective
1.guided by truth, reason, justice, and fairness: We hope to be just in our understanding of such difficult situations.
2.done or made according to principle; equitable; proper: a just reply.
3.based on right; rightful; lawful: a just claim.
4.in keeping with truth or fact; true; correct: a just ****ysis.
5.given or awarded rightly; deserved, as a sentence, punishment, or reward: a just penalty.

[Billyray]

God is a just God...and a very loving God. . .He doesn't pick and choose.
Romans 9
10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac.
11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:
12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”
13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Romans 9
17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”

[Libby]

OK. Here is your post.

Calvinists don't make God responsible for man's sin. Man is responsible for his sins. So why did you say "In the process, they make him responsible for man's sin ?

I'm talking about salvation and unbelief, specifically, Billy. If God is just and he sets out to save man from sin, it would be "unjust" (unfair) to choose only a few, for the opportunity, and leave the rest to parish in their sins. A loving and just God would simply not do that...and the Bible says God does not do that. Salvation is for all who will come to him, when he draws them. And, "he draws all men to himself".

[Libby]

Romans 9
10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac.
11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:
12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”
13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Romans 9
17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”

We already discussed this. I'm not doing a repeat. Most of this is ALREADY a repeat.

[Billyray]

I'm talking about salvation and unbelief, specifically, Billy.
So you seem to be OK with the fact that men willfully disobey God's commandments, that the basis for sending anyone to Hell is breaking the commandments, and man is the one who is responsible disobeying God's commandments. If that is the case what would a "just" judge do in this case?

[Billyray]

We already discussed this. I'm not doing a repeat. Most of this is ALREADY a repeat.
Yet you brought it up again and you realize that these verses disprove what you have said so now you want to say that you don't want to talk about it. Thats fine--but if you really don't want to talk about it then perhaps you shouldn't keep bringing it up.

[Billyray]

So you agree with me that the Father gives some men (but not ALL) to Christ and those who are given to Him WILL come to Christ.

Yes, I agree with that.
It's just that I believe it has to do with God's foreknowledge (and not him picking and choosing for no reason).

I am not sure if you have thought this one through yet. But in case you have can you tell me how this works exactly other than just saying "foreknowledge"?

I'm probably not going to have any better answer than you do, for why God would draw only "some" and not all.

All I know is, it has to be arranged so that man is responsible for his unbelief....not God.

God knows who will respond to his drawing and he chooses those people to give to Christ.

Libby stop and think about your position for a few minutes and try to come up with an answer. Perhaps you will see the problems that you face with your position.

Can you tell me how this works exactly other than just saying "foreknowledge"?

[Libby]

Yet you brought it up again and you realize that these verses disprove what you have said so now you want to say that you don't want to talk about it. Thats fine--but if you really don't want to talk about it then perhaps you shouldn't keep bringing it up.

Actually, I did not start this again. Apologette did. (even though she didn't like that we were discussing it here)

[Libby]

Yet you brought it up again and you realize that these verses disprove what you have said so now you want to say that you don't want to talk about it. Thats fine--but if you really don't want to talk about it then perhaps you shouldn't keep bringing it up.

No, Billy, I don't believe any of your verses disprove anything I have said. I just don't think it's necessary to do this again. Go back and read this thread from the beginning. I've addressed everything you are bringing up. You may not agree with the way I addressed it, but you do have my thinking and reasoning (from the Bible) on this subject.

I don't know exactly how it all works (I am not God)...but, I don't think you do either.

[Billyray]

No, Billy, I don't believe any of your verses disprove anything I have said. I just don't think it's necessary to do this again. Go back and read this thread from the beginning. I've addressed everything you are bringing up. You may not agree with the way I addressed it, but you do have my thinking and reasoning (from the Bible) on this subject.

I don't know exactly how it all works (I am not God)...but, I don't think you do either.
If you don't know about it why not look at what God has given us in the scriptures?



God is a just God...and a very loving God. . .He doesn't pick and choose.

Romans 9
10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac.
11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:
12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”
13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Romans 9
17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
Didn't God pick Jacob over Esau? Does God love Esau? Didn't God raise up the Pharaoh for a specific purpose? What was that purpose?

[Libby]

I meant, he doesn't choose for salvation (without foreknowledge). My focus is salvation.

We talked about the above, before. Of course, God has used people for his various purposes.

[Billyray]

I meant, he doesn't choose for salvation (without foreknowledge). My focus is salvation.

But tell me exactly what you mean when you say "he doesn't choose for salvation (without foreknowledge)"

Does He see the person coming to Christ on his own? What exactly do you mean when you say "foreknowledge" as it pertains to salvation?

[Billyray]

We talked about the above, before. Of course, God has used people for his various purposes.
11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:

Did God use "foreknowledge" when choosing Jacob (for "various purposes")?

[alanmolstad]

Jacob over Esau always had Free Will.......always....

[alanmolstad]

Does He see the person coming to Christ on his own? every person must do so....You cant come to Christ for another...only yourself.

[alanmolstad]

Didn't God raise up the Pharaoh for a specific purpose? Pharaoh always had Free Will........always....

[alanmolstad]

It seems like Calvinists are overly zealous in their wish to acknowledge God's sovereignty. In the process, they make him responsible for man's sin (especially the sin of unbelief).This is why we see so many people understand that Calvinism is simply very wrong....its a man's idea not found in the Bible...

[alanmolstad]

See my post above. Man is the one who breaks the commandments so man is responsible for his sin. For some reason you want to blame God for man's sins and I am not sure where you have come up with this unBiblical belief.
billy....with this post you show yourself to about pointless to talk to...

You invent ideas...you pull ideas out of thin air all the time....

Libby, you are a Saint to put up with this ...I would have placed him on IGNORE after reporting that post.
We are not supposed to use the term "lie" when talking about the posts of the forum members, but when you look at this post by Billy you have to search for words other than that to describe what is being said about your views.

[Billyray]

Jacob over Esau always had Free Will.......always....
Romans 9
10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac.
11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:
12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”
13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Fair enough. But what do you think that this section of scripture is trying to teach us?

[Billyray]

billy....with this post you show yourself to about pointless to talk to...

You invent ideas...you pull ideas out of thin air all the time....


"Man is the one who breaks the commandments so man is responsible for his sin. For some reason you want to blame God for man's sins and I am not sure where you have come up with this unBiblical belief."

Alan it seems like from you response that you disagree with what I said above. Is that a fair ***essment?

[Billyray]

This is why we see so many people understand that Calvinism is simply very wrong....its a man's idea not found in the Bible...
But Alan if you would have at least followed along with the discussion you would have known that Libby's ***ertion against Calvinism was false. Calvinism never makes God responsible for sin--rather man is the one who commits sin therefore man is the one who is responsible. You should be more careful when agreeing with a straw man argument--it will bite you every time.

[Billyray]

every person must do so....You cant come to Christ for another...only yourself.
Alan a person doesn't have the ability to come to Christ unless that person is enabled to do so by the Father. Do you agree with this?

[Libby]

But Alan if you would have at least followed along with the discussion you would have known that Libby's ***ertion against Calvinism was false. Calvinism never makes God responsible for sin--rather man is the one who commits sin therefore man is the one who is responsible. You should be more careful when agreeing with a straw man argument--it will bite you every time.

My "claim" was poorly worded, so put the blame there. As I mentioned in one of the following posts, my "focus" was on salvation and unbelief. When we make God responsible for the "choosing" (other than by foresight), we make him also responsible for the unbelief of those YOU belief he has not called....because, as you keep mentioning, we cannot come to God without, first, being drawn.

If a person is not drawn (and THAT is a requirement) and God only draws "some"...then, you are making HIM the reason that some are not given the opportunity for salvation. They "cannot" come to him, if he doesn't draw them. Not "will not" but "CANNOT". That makes God responsible, not man.

[Libby]

billy....with this post you show yourself to about pointless to talk to...

You invent ideas...you pull ideas out of thin air all the time....

Libby, you are a Saint to put up with this ...I would have placed him on IGNORE after reporting that post.
We are not supposed to use the term "lie" when talking about the posts of the forum members, but when you look at this post by Billy you have to search for words other than that to describe what is being said about your views.

No, he's not lying...he is just using my poorly worded claims to take us rather off topic. Billy keeps going back to "sin", in general, which is not really what *I* am talking about. I'm talking about salvation and unbelief, specifically...so, I need to keep reminding him of that.

But, thank you for the support. I can be patient, when I need to be...but, probably not a "saint"! LOL

[alanmolstad]

Alan a person doesn't have the ability to come to Christ unless that person is enabled to do so by the Father. Do you agree with this?There is NOTHING standing in the way of any person.....ZERO....ZIP....Nothing!....except for their own hearts.

If there was anyone, be in heaven or on the earth that has stopped people from believing and has cause them to fall, it would be better for them if a millstone were tied around their necks and tossed into the sea....


The universe is still here.
And the Bible states that all this that we see in the universe declares to all people about the nature of God, so much so, and so clearly seen is this, that no man has any excuse for his unbelief........
So even if you never heard of the Jewish laws, nor ever heard of the person of Christ, you still are without anyone else to blame except for yourself for your lack of faith....

The invisible nature of God are "clearly seen"......This is not an accident.
The universe does not accidentally show us the nature of the Lord...

It's part of the plan.
A way God draws all men to himself...........


So is there anything that must yet happen before you can become a Christian? (see ACTS 8: 36)....The answer is always - No!


You dont have to worry that some other "step" must happen before you can become a member of the Church of believers..>


Its like the following:
I live in a very small town in North Dakota.
on Sunday morning you can hear the church bell ringing, calling all people in town to come to church and worship.

Everyone hears the bell.....this is not an accident.

Regardless of who you are, you are being attracted to come to church........this is not an accident.

Regardless of your current religion, you are being drawn to the church with the bell to come and join them......this is not an accident.


For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.............The universe shows us God's invisible nature.....

This also is not an accident!

[alanmolstad]

Alan it seems like from you response that you disagree with what I said above. Is that a fair ***essment?a fair ***essment is that you don't have a clue what you are talking about...and that you cant still be confused as to what i and Libby have said , thus a fair ***essment of your bad behavior is that you invent things that are not true, and that claim others believe in such nonsense ....and if I see you continue with this "now typical" behavor, I will have no problem returning your name to my IGNORE list until I think you start to acting more in-line with the Lord you claim to serve,

[Billyray]

My "claim" was poorly worded, so put the blame there. As I mentioned in one of the following posts, my "focus" was on salvation and unbelief.
Yet you seem to totally ignore the main reason that man is punished which is sin. Man breaks the laws and man is responsible. Since you have said that God is "just" what is a "just" punishment for someone who breaks the law?

[Billyray]

When we make God responsible for the "choosing" (other than by foresight), we make him also responsible for the unbelief of those YOU belief he has not called....because, as you keep mentioning, we cannot come to God without, first, being drawn.
One important thing that you also seem to forget is the fact that man does have a "choice" to obey the commandments and a "choice" to place his faith in Christ. God doesn't force someone to reject Christ--that is the choice that the individual makes and it is the choice that the person wants to make. You have said that this is not a real choice but to the person making that choice it is real to them.

[Billyray]

There is NOTHING standing in the way of any person.....ZERO....ZIP....Nothing!....except for their own hearts.

You are right about one thing Alan--man does have a "choice" but we also know from scriptures that unregenerate man will always choose to reject Christ. When you use the word "free will" you are using it in that word in the way that I would use the word "choice". That is why I have asked you to define the word on multiple occasions in the past.

[Billyray]

Billy keeps going back to "sin", in general, which is not really what *I* am talking about.
But sin is the whole reason why a person needs a Savior and the basis for punishment in the first place. So when you say that you are not talking about sin you are ignoring the crux of the problem. I am not sure why you don't see that.

[alanmolstad]

You have said that this is not a real choice but to the person making that choice it is real to them.if its not real....then its fake....if its fake then there is no sin.....

If the choice is real, then the results are real...

if the choice is fake, the results are fake, and cant be used against anyone......

[Billyray]

if its not real....then its fake....if its fake then there is no sin.....

Alan sometimes I don't think you even read my posts--even when you quote it in your own post. Did you bother reading my statement that you quoted?

Here it is again for you "You have said that this is not a real choice but to the person making that choice it is real to them.

[alanmolstad]

So this means that when all men are asked to "repent and believe"....that all men must be able to do this.....

if all men are not able to do this, then the request to do so is fake....and thus the results of asking people to do something that is fake are moot....



the moment you take away all men's ability to decided for themselves free of all interference, or all men's free will you make Jesus a clown......

[Billyray]

So this means that when all men are asked to "repent and believe"....that all men must be able to do this.....

Everyone has a choice to either keep the commandments or to break them and those who have heard about Christ have the choice to accept Him or reject Him.

Let me ask you a question that might help you understand my position a little better.

1. We are asked to obey the commandments
2. You and I would likely agree that we all have a choice to obey or disobey the commandments
3. Do you have the ability to keep all of the commandments?

[alanmolstad]

Here it is again for you "You have said that this is not a real choice but to the person making that choice it is real to them.over and over and over I keep telling you that it has to be a real choice.....and yet you invent your own **** and try to paint me with it....


So one again...(not that I believe for one moment you will grasp the concept) The choice to believe or not has to be real, or else the whole christian faith is a totally fake thing, and regardless of what you decide you cant be held guilty of making the wrong decision.


But because we know we are held guilty for a bad decision we therefore know the choice we made was real.....

[alanmolstad]

Everyone has a choice to either keep the commandments or to break them and those who have heard about Christ have the choice to accept Him or reject Him.

Let me ask you a question that might help you understand my position a little better.

1. We are asked to obey the commandments
[/COLOR]

we are never asked to do things we cant do...

1 John 2:1

So we are told that we dont have to sin....sin is never God's plan for our behavior.
But if a guy does sin, there is yet a answer to this too.


"My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin.
But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One


so we dont have to sin, and we have been given the words of the Bible to keep us from sinning.
But if later we do sin, then we have to us yet an answer to this too...

[alanmolstad]

so we are asked to repent and believe.......because we can!

we are asked to follow the commandments.....because we can!

But we are told that not all will repent and believe, because we can also refuse to believe.
and if we sin and break the commandments, we have an advocate





the word of God to "Repent and Believe" is given to us because we have Free Will and can repent and believe.
and we have need of an advocate because we do have Free Will,...and our free will is real, and it gives us the ability to turn off the right path.

[Billyray]

Everyone has a choice to either keep the commandments or to break them and those who have heard about Christ have the choice to accept Him or reject Him.

Let me ask you a question that might help you understand my position a little better.

1. We are asked to obey the commandments
2. You and I would likely agree that we all have a choice to obey or disobey the commandments
3. Do you have the ability to keep all of the commandments?

we are never asked to do things we cant do...

So you believe that we have the ability to keep ALL of the commandments and live a perfect life just like Jesus. Alan this is not Biblical--you should know this. You are guilty of the same heresy as Pelagius (the Pelagian heresy)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelagianism

[alanmolstad]

So you believe that we have the ability to keep ALL of the commandments and live a perfect life just like Jesus. Alan this is not Biblical--you should know this.

did god ever ask us to flap our arms and fly to the moon to be saved?......why not?


did God ever ask us to hold our breath and swim down to the bottom of the deepest sea to be saved?.......why not?


the reason is that we are human, and we simply "could not' do such things.
Because regardless of the situation we "could not" do such things, it would be crazy of a god to demand that we do such things to be saved.

You cant ask people to do things that they cant ever do, and then send them to hell for being unable to do them.

Case - Closed!


so this means that all that god gave mankind to do, is within our ability to do, or else we would never be asked to do it, or judged for failing to do it.

[alanmolstad]

over and over and over I keep telling you that it has to be a real choice.....and yet you invent your own **** and try to paint me with it....


So one again...(not that I believe for one moment you will grasp the concept) The choice to believe or not has to be real, or else the whole christian faith is a totally fake thing, and regardless of what you decide you cant be held guilty of making the wrong decision.


But because we know we are held guilty for a bad decision we therefore know the choice we made was real.....

lets not overlook this idea I have shared here.....

[Billyray]

did god ever ask us to flap our arms and fly to the moon to be saved?......why not?


did God ever ask us to hold our breath and swim down to the bottom of the deepest sea to be saved?.......why not?


the reason is that we are human, and we simply "could not' do such things.
Because regardless of the situation we "could not" do such things, it would be crazy of a god to demand that we do such things to be saved.

You cant ask people to do things that they cant ever do, and then send them to hell for being unable to do them.

Case - Closed!


so this means that all that god gave mankind to do, is within our ability to do, or else we would never be asked to do it, or judged for failing to do it.
Alan I know that you won't listen to me but there is not another Christian on this board who agrees with you on this point and to top it off I bet you won't find a single mormon either.

[alanmolstad]

Alan I know that you won't listen to me but there is not another Christian on this board who agrees with you .ahhh...you mean James?...LOL

No I did not guess he would actually.....what would be the sport in that?

So pointing out how my views differ that yours and James is not actually going to keep any person up at night with worry.......;)

[alanmolstad]

did god ever ask us to flap our arms and fly to the moon to be saved?......why not?


.
so....what this means is that everything God asked a person to do was based on the idea that the guy could do it.
Even when Peter was asked to walk on water, ...guess what?...Jesus asked him to do that because Jesus knew he could do that....

Now Im not saying that just because i was asked to do something it means its going to be easy....nor is just being asked mean we always will do it...
But if we are asked it is ONLY because we can do what was asked....

If we "could not" do what was asked then God "could not" blame us for not doing it.

But if we are asked to do something that we can do, and we refuse to do it, then we can be blamed for it because we "would not"
(see Matthew 23:37)

[Libby]

I think some LDS would agree with Alan. I have seen some say that we do have the ability to keep all of the commandments.

Anyway...I think this is all getting a bit confusing.

Billy, you have said, yourself, that we have the "ability" to come to Christ. We just don't have the "desire". Our desire is to sin. But, on the other hand, you have also said that we really don't have the "ability" to keep all of the commandments, perfectly (and I have agreed with that).

Alan is, at least, being consistent in saying that we have the ability, but not the desire. Our sin nature has more or less corrupted any desire to turn to God...which is why we need God ***isting us, in order to come to Him. He also had to provide atonement for our sins (through His Son, Jesus Christ).

So CAN WE keep all of the commandments? Since they are, in large part, a matter of the "heart" (and the human heart is corrupted by sin), we usually say "no" to that question...we cannot keep the commandments perfectly...not because we could not physically do it, but because our hearts are corrupted. The Pharisees were good commandment keepers, physically, but their hearts were corrupted by sin, which meant they were not keeping the law "perfectly". THEY thought they were keeping the law perfectly, but Jesus could see into their hearts.

So, do we have the ability to keep the commandments perfectly? It seems to me that, because of our corrupted sin nature, we do not. That's the exact reason we needed Jesus Christ.

[Billyray]

I think some LDS would agree with Alan. I have seen some say that we do have the ability to keep all of the commandments.

In all my time dealing with lds I can recall only one time that a mormon claims that it is possible to keep all of the commandments. Not a single Christian that I no agrees with Alan, and with the exception of one lds member that I came across they don't agree with him either. He is on his own on this one. This should make him pause and reconsider his position on this one. Maybe you can talk some sense into him because he certainly won't listen to me. As I noted above this is a perfect example of the Pelagian heresy.

[alanmolstad]

Did Jesus ever once instruct us that we did not have to keep the commandments>?

Did Christ ever once teach that the commandments were just unattainable goals?,

Did God teach that we dont have to worry about them and keep them?

When Christ tells us to keep His commandments, is he serious or just kidding around?

[alanmolstad]

The one thing you have to always remember is, that if God commanded us to do something, it is ONLY because He knows we "could".....

Im not saying we "would"......but the fact that our loving father told us to do something means automatically that it was something we could do....



There is not a single verse in the bible to say different....

[Billyray]

Billy, you have said, yourself, that we have the "ability" to come to Christ. We just don't have the "desire".

I don't recall ever saying that those who are not regenerated have the "ability" to come to Christ. Link me to my post (or posts) where I have said this because I will need to correct it. Just so you are clear on my position I will restate it here again for you. Those who have heard about Christ have the opportunity and have the choice to either accept Him or reject Him. But those who are un-regenerate do not have the ability to come to Christ. The same goes for the commandments--people have the opportunity and have the choice to either obey or disobey the commandments. But they do not have the ability to keep the commandments.


Alan is, at least, being consistent in saying that we have the ability, but not the desire.

You are absolutely correct Alan is at least being consistent with his response. He claims "free will" and he believes that anyone at anytime can come to Christ (even prior to being drawn by the Father) and he believes that a person is capable of keeping ALL of the commandments. Although he is being consistent--which I commend him for at least being consistent--he is wrong on both points.

I am also being consistent in my position which is that we have a choice and an opportunity to obey the commandments and to follow Christ but we do not have the ability to do either prior to regeneration. Notice that I am being consistent but my position is opposite that of Alan's position.

1. We are given commandments
2. We have the opportunity and have a choice to either obey or disobey the commandments
3. If we break the commandments we have committed a sin and we are responsible and deserve punishment
4. We do not have the ability to keep ALL of the commandments.

Libby these questions are directed at you because they are the same criticisms that you have laid against Calvinism (with respect to election)

1. Do we have a "real" choice to obey the commandments?

2. If a person is unable to keep all of the commandments is it fair for God to punish him for not keeping the commandments?

[alanmolstad]

what we get when we read many of the sermons of Jesus, are his instructions on HOW to keep the Commandments....

Jesus was teaching us the correct way to KEEP the Commandments....

Over and over Jesus carefully teaches how he wants us to keep His commandments....


There is not even a hint in the sermons of Christ that the commandments were not to be kept.
So this means that the reason the commandments were given to us is because God knew we have the ability to keep them...thus when we fail its not the fault of the commandment...

[Billyray]

So this means that the reason the commandments were given to us is because God knew we have the ability to keep them...
Alan you should reconsider your position because it is false. Here is my challenge to you--try to find a single Christian on this board--or anywhere else for that matter--and see it he or she agrees with you that it is possible to keep ALL of the commandments and live a perfect life just like Christ.

[alanmolstad]

(even prior to being drawn by the Father) ?

once more...Billy inventing ****,,,,,,,,

Sorry billy, never once said that, so you are totally caught red-handed again making things up and painting people with your version of reality...

[alanmolstad]

Here is my challenge to you--try to find a single Christian ......

Matthew 19:16 - 21.......Jesus is the guy I get these ideas from.
Take it up with him , if you get a chance....


So my advice is for you to "Stop Blaming The Commandments"

[alanmolstad]

take a commandment of example...like do not Kill, or murder,,,,or whatever its called in the Bible.

We are told to keep this commandment.....
Did you keep it today?......

if the answer is yes, then what we know is the commandment is within human ability to keep....so we cant blame the Commandment.
We cant say, "no one can keep that" because we see clearly that we can keep it.

Thus from time to time when we see someone break this Commandment we cant rush to defend them by saying, "Oh that Commandment is too hard for anyone to keep"

So the Commandment is correct ....and cant be blamed.


We also know that we humans have the ability to keep the commandment too....that we have the ability within our Free Will to decide to keep this Commandment...
So this points us the the one thing that seems to be key to our keeping a Commandment or not keeping it...."Free Will"

[alanmolstad]

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

[Libby]

In all my time dealing with lds I can recall only one time that a mormon claims that it is possible to keep all of the commandments.

Perfect obedience...becoming perfect, like Christ, is the main goal in Mormonism. Progressing towards godhood. The example Julie gave, of learning to ride a bicycle, first with help (from Jesus) and then, finally, on your own.


Not a single Christian that I no agrees with Alan, and with the exception of one lds member that I came across they don't agree with him either. He is on his own on this one. This should make him pause and reconsider his position on this one. Maybe you can talk some sense into him because he certainly won't listen to me. As I noted above this is a perfect example of the Pelagian heresy.

Had to refresh my memory on Pelagianism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelagianism


Pelagianism is the belief that original sin did not taint human nature and that mortal will is still capable of choosing good or evil without special Divine aid.


I'm not sure that is exactly Alan's believe? That our nature is completely untouched by the sin of Adam and Eve? Alan?

[alanmolstad]

all I have ever said is this...

Man has free Will, and God is Sovereign.

in the cross of Christ God is drawing all men to himself.

The universe is speaking to us and showing us clearly the invisible nature of God...This is why no man can say, "God never reached out to me" because the very universe itself is constantly from the beginning testifying as to the nature of God and is always drawing us to the Lord.

Therefore , because the universe does not 'accidentally" show us so clearly seen things about God, no man has valid reason not to respond to the calling of God to believe.
So no man can say, "Something yet must happen".....for God is not sitting around waiting until we do something before he draws us to the Cross, ,,,rather the truth is that from the very beginning of time the Lord has designed the universe to proclaim God's love....

This is not an accident....it's the PLAN!

God is reaching out to us!

God is drawing us!......
Not might....not maybe....not sometimes.....

"IS" drawing us to Himself though the cross of Christ.....both believer and non-believer.

NOW...is the time of salvation.
NOW is the day......
Nothing needs to yet happen...Nothing is needed more..

if something was yet needed to wait for, then the unbeliever could be justified in not believing because he could say, "I waited for what was needed but never received"

ALL have received what is needed to believe, because the Whole Universe of the things made already and constantly proclaims the Lord's nature.

as for the commandments?.....
They were not given to the birds, for the birds could not follow them.
They were not given to the rocks and trees, for the rocks and trees could not keep them.

But they were given to men, because men can keep them.
and that is why Jesus always asked us to keep them.....
Jesus never asked us to do things we could not do.

[Billyray]

Perfect obedience...becoming perfect, like Christ, is the main goal in Mormonism. Progressing towards godhood. The example Julie gave, of learning to ride a bicycle, first with help (from Jesus) and then, finally, on your own.

But even BigJ would not make the claim that Alan has made. BigJ has stressed repentance. However I would love to hear her make that claim because that would make it the second mormon to make this claim and it would be a very interesting discussion using the Bible. I haven't done so with Alan because he flat out refuses to listen. At least BigJ will read what I have written.

[Libby]

I don't recall ever saying that those who are not regenerated have the "ability" to come to Christ. Link me to my post (or posts) where I have said this because I will need to correct it.

I haven't had a chance to look back (and my memory is not perfect), but I think you have said, something to the effect that we could choose Christ..and I mistook that as meaning we have the "ability". In retrospect, I do know your position on this.


Just so you are clear on my position I will restate it here again for you. Those who have heard about Christ have the opportunity and have the choice to either accept Him or reject Him. But those who are un-regenerate do not have the ability to come to Christ. The same goes for the commandments--people have the opportunity and have the choice to either obey or disobey the commandments. But they do not have the ability to keep the commandments.

Okay, thank you for the clarification.


You are absolutely correct Alan is at least being consistent with his response. He claims "free will" and he believes that anyone at anytime can come to Christ (even prior to being drawn by the Father) and he believes that a person is capable of keeping ALL of the commandments. Although he is being consistent--which I commend him for at least being consistent--he is wrong on both points.

He might be, in my opinion, as well, but I would like further clarification.


I am also being consistent in my position which is that we have a choice and an opportunity to obey the commandments and to follow Christ but we do not have the ability to do either prior to regeneration. Notice that I am being consistent but my position is opposite that of Alan's position.

1. We are given commandments
2. We have the opportunity and have a choice to either obey or disobey the commandments
3. If we break the commandments we have committed a sin and we are responsible and deserve punishment
4. We do not have the ability to keep ALL of the commandments.

You're being consistent, insofar as you believe we are so damaged by sin that we cannot do any "good", including turning to Christ, without a complete makeover from God.

I seem to find myself somewhere in between you and Alan. I do believe we are damaged by sin. I don't believe we are so damaged that we have to be completely regenerated before we can make "real" choices. But, I do believe we require some help from God (His generous and loving grace/his drawing) in order to come to Him.


Libby these questions are directed at you because they are the same criticisms that you have laid against Calvinism (with respect to election)

1. Do we have a "real" choice to obey the commandments?

I think we can obey a lot of the commandments, if we choose to, but can we do it PERFECTLY, as is required by God? No. Not even close.


2. If a person is unable to keep all of the commandments is it fair for God to punish him for not keeping the commandments?

I don't know if "fair" is really the word I would use. It's just that God, Himself, is Holy and perfect, and the Bible says unclean/unholy things cannot dwell in the Presence of the Lord.

[Billyray]

I'm not sure that is exactly Alan's believe? That our nature is completely untouched by the sin of Adam and Eve? Alan?
This was an important debate in the 5th century that developed between Augustine and Pelagius. Pelagius took issue with what Augustine wrote which sparked the debate. A little snippet about this is posted below by Sproul and I included the link so you can read a little bit more. Or google Augustine vs Pelagius debate.



The Pelagian Controversy

by R.C. Sproul


“Grant what Thou commandest, and command what Thou dost desire.” This p***age from the pen of Saint Augustine of Hippo was the teaching of the great theologian that provoked one of the most important controversies in the history of the church, and one that was roused to fury in the early years of the fifth century. . ."

http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/pelagian-controversy/

[Billyray]

I haven't had a chance to look back (and my memory is not perfect), but I think you have said, something to the effect that we could choose Christ..and I mistook that as meaning we have the "ability". In retrospect, I do know your position on this.
1. We are given commandments
2. We have the opportunity and have a choice to either obey or disobey the commandments
3. If we break the commandments we have committed a sin and we are responsible and deserve punishment
4. We do not have the ability to keep ALL of the commandments.

I have the same position for obedience to the commandments as I do with coming to Christ by faith.

[alanmolstad]

all I have ever said is this...

Man has free Will, and God is Sovereign.

in the cross of Christ God is drawing all men to himself.

The universe is speaking to us and showing us clearly the invisible nature of God...This is why no man can say, "God never reached out to me" because the very universe itself is constantly from the beginning testifying as to the nature of God and is always drawing us to the Lord.

Therefore , because the universe does not 'accidentally" show us so clearly seen things about God, no man has valid reason not to respond to the calling of God to believe.
So no man can say, "Something yet must happen".....for God is not sitting around waiting until we do something before he draws us to the Cross, ,,,rather the truth is that from the very beginning of time the Lord has designed the universe to proclaim God's love....

This is not an accident....it's the PLAN!

God is reaching out to us!

God is drawing us!......
Not might....not maybe....not sometimes.....

"IS" drawing us to Himself though the cross of Christ.....both believer and non-believer.

NOW...is the time of salvation.
NOW is the day......
Nothing needs to yet happen...Nothing is needed more..

if something was yet needed to wait for, then the unbeliever could be justified in not believing because he could say, "I waited for what was needed but never received"

ALL have received what is needed to believe, because the Whole Universe of the things made already and constantly proclaims the Lord's nature.

as for the commandments?.....
They were not given to the birds, for the birds could not follow them.
They were not given to the rocks and trees, for the rocks and trees could not keep them.

But they were given to men, because men can keep them.
and that is why Jesus always asked us to keep them.....
Jesus never asked us to do things we could not do.

[Billyray]

think we can obey a lot of the commandments, if we choose to, but can we do it PERFECTLY, as is required by God? No. Not even close.

1. We are given commandments
2. We have the opportunity and have a choice to either obey or disobey the commandments
3. If we break the commandments we have committed a sin and we are responsible and deserve punishment
4. We do not have the ability to keep ALL of the commandments.

But looking at the four points about do you think that we make "real" choices when we choose to obey or disobey the commandments?

[Libby]

all I have ever said is this...

Man has free Will, and God is Sovereign.

in the cross of Christ God is drawing all men to himself.

The universe is speaking to us and showing us clearly the invisible nature of God...This is why no man can say, "God never reached out to me" because the very universe itself is constantly from the beginning testifying as to the nature of God and is always drawing us to the Lord.

Therefore , because the universe does not 'accidentally" show us so clearly seen things about God, no man has valid reason not to respond to the calling of God to believe.
So no man can say, "Something yet must happen".....for God is not sitting around waiting until we do something before he draws us to the Cross, ,,,rather the truth is that from the very beginning of time the Lord has designed the universe to proclaim God's love....

This is not an accident....it's the PLAN!

God is reaching out to us!

God is drawing us!......
Not might....not maybe....not sometimes.....

"IS" drawing us to Himself though the cross of Christ.....both believer and non-believer.

NOW...is the time of salvation.
NOW is the day......
Nothing needs to yet happen...Nothing is needed more..

if something was yet needed to wait for, then the unbeliever could be justified in not believing because he could say, "I waited for what was needed but never received"

ALL have received what is needed to believe, because the Whole Universe of the things made already and constantly proclaims the Lord's nature.

as for the commandments?.....
They were not given to the birds, for the birds could not follow them.
They were not given to the rocks and trees, for the rocks and trees could not keep them.

But they were given to men, because men can keep them.
and that is why Jesus always asked us to keep them.....
Jesus never asked us to do things we could not do.

Okay, I completely agree with you that God is drawing all of us, all the time..in many different ways. I believe that drawing is by His grace and love for us...and through that drawing, we have the ability to say "yes" or "no" to Him. If we say "yes", he continues to draw and bring us home. If we ignore him and continue going our own way, pretty soon we're not "hearing" him, anymore.

As for the commandments, I agree that we have some ability to keep them. I just don't believe we have the ability to keep them "perfectly". Our nature is very "sin-prone", starting with the fall. Even after regeneration, we still sin, sometimes...but, at least, we are more aware of our sins and repent..and have Christ to cover us.

So, do you believe we can be "perfect" and completely sin free, if we choose, Alan? I'm not clear on that.

[alanmolstad]

So, do you believe we can be "perfect" and completely sin free, if we choose, Alan? I'm not clear on that.Jesus seemed to think so...go read John 8:11

Jesus didnt tell the girl to "go try to cut down on the bigger sins".....or....."Try to do a few good things to counter all the bad things you will be doing"

Or....."Dont try to be sinless, rather just do the best you can"



What did he command?


It's the same he asks of you and I today too...Nothing has changed.
people back then are the same as people today.
God back then is the same God today, nothing has changed....God never asked her to do something she could not do.

But when any person sins, we have a advocate, and he will clean us of all sin.

yes, clean of all sin.

[Christian]

libby posted:
Okay, I completely agree with you that God is drawing all of us, all the time..in many different ways.

SCRIPTURE never says that. SCRIPTURE says:
Matt 7:13-14
13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
NKJV

SCRIPTURE ALSO SAYS:

John 6:44
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
NKJV

John 6:65
65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
NKJV

BOTH of those p***ages indicate that NOT EVERYONE is drawn to Jesus.

I believe that drawing is by His grace and love for us...and through that drawing, we have the ability to say "yes" or "no" to Him. If we say "yes", he continues to draw and bring us home. If we ignore him and continue going our own way, pretty soon we're not "hearing" him, anymore.

Not according to the scriptures above.

As for the commandments, I agree that we have some ability to keep them. I just don't believe we have the ability to keep them "perfectly". Our nature is very "sin-prone", starting with the fall. Even after regeneration, we still sin, sometimes...but, at least, we are more aware of our sins and repent..and have Christ to cover us.

And since the 10 commandments are NOT the commandments we are under but were part of THE LAW that we ARE NOT UNDER, it doesn't matter that you don't keep the Sabbath (Sa****ay, NOT WORKING AT ALL), or that you don't offer rams, lambs, oxen, goats, or turtledoves for sacrifices.

The commandments (Literally 'commands') we ARE under are the ones JESUS gave. . .we are STEWARDS of GOD'S goods, we are to LOVE THE LORD AND LOVE OUR NEIGHBORS.

No, we do NOT have the ability to keep all of the commandments. ONLY ONE PERSON EVER did that, and He is Jesus.

So, do you believe we can be "perfect" and completely sin free, if we choose, Alan? I'm not clear on that.

If THAT WERE POSSIBLE, why would Jesus have had to die on the cross?


In the Name of Jesus,
fish

[Libby]

I want to add...the reason I don't believe the topic of "salvation" and "general sinning" are quite the same is, because God DID give us a way out of our sins through Jesus Christ. If he was so generous as to extend that "way" for us to come to Him, why would He not be generous and loving enough to extend it to ALL?

That doesn't make sense to me.

[Libby]

BOTH of those p***ages indicate that NOT EVERYONE is drawn to Jesus.


They don't indicate that "not everyone is drawn". They do indicate that Jesus is the "narrow gate"..and not everyone will accept the call.

Hi Christian. Welcome to the discussion. :)

[alanmolstad]

Its one of my better posts....nice and short and to the point...

Jesus seemed to think so...go read John 8:11

Jesus didnt tell the girl to "go try to cut down on the bigger sins".....or....."Try to do a few good things to counter all the bad things you will be doing"

Or....."Dont try to be sinless, rather just do the best you can"



What did he command?


It's the same he asks of you and I today too...Nothing has changed.
people back then are the same as people today.
God back then is the same God today, nothing has changed....God never asked her to do something she could not do.

But when any person sins, we have a advocate, and he will clean us of all sin.

yes, clean of all sin.

[Billyray]

Billyray
2. If a person is unable to keep all of the commandments is it fair for God to punish him for not keeping the commandments?


Libby
I don't know if "fair" is really the word I would use. It's just that God, Himself, is Holy and perfect, and the Bible says unclean/unholy things cannot dwell in the Presence of the Lord.

If a person is unable to keep all of the commandments is it fair for God to punish him for not keeping the commandments? [Your answer is above]

If a person is unable to [come to Christ] is it fair for God to punish him for not [coming to Christ]?

[Billyray]

They don't indicate that "not everyone is drawn". They do indicate that Jesus is the "narrow gate"..and not everyone will accept the call.

John 6
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

One of the verses that Christian used was John 6:65 so let's take a look at both verses 64 and 65. What reason did Christ give in verse 65 for the reason that those in verse 64 did not believe?f

[Libby]

If a person is unable to keep all of the commandments is it fair for God to punish him for not keeping the commandments? [Your answer is above]

If a person is unable to [come to Christ] is it fair for God to punish him for not [coming to Christ]?

What I would find "unfair" is giving the ability to "some", but not "all".

Not all will come, of course, and no it is not unfair to punish (or exclude) those who "will not" come.

[Libby]

John 6
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

One of the verses that Christian used was John 6:65 so let's take a look at both verses 64 and 65. What reason did Christ give in verse 65 for the reason that those in verse 64 did not believe?f

I think we discussed this before (like most everything else here).

"This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them"

He is talking about those the Father knew, beforehand, would answer His call.

" "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

[Billyray]

What I would find "unfair" is giving the ability to "some", but not "all".

So if God sent everyone to Hell then you would consider this fair. Correct?

[Billyray]

I think we discussed this before (like most everything else here).

"This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them"

He is talking about those the Father knew, beforehand, would answer His call.


We are back to your pat answer of "foreknowledge" and I have asked you to explain exactly what you mean by this but thus far you haven't done so. Since you haven't really explained how this works exactly I hope you don't mind if I ask you some questions so that I can better understand what you mean by this. Let's start with this one and then we can move on after you answer it.


Do "those the Father knew, beforehand, [who] would answer His call"--come to Christ on their own without being "drawn" or "enabled" by the Father (in God's "foreknowledge")?

[Libby]

So if God sent everyone to Hell then you would consider this fair. Correct?

Yes........

[Libby]

We are back to your pat answer of "foreknowledge" and I have asked you to explain exactly what you mean by this but thus far you haven't done so. Since you haven't really explained how this works exactly I hope you don't mind if I ask you some questions so that I can better understand what you mean by this. Let's start with this one and then we can move on after you answer it.


Do "those the Father knew, beforehand, [who] would answer His call"--come to Christ on their own without being "drawn" or "enabled" by the Father (in God's "foreknowledge")?

No, according to the Bible, God will draw them (as you know).

[Billyray]

Yes........

In this case it would show that God is a "just" judge.

Lets say that there are 10 convicts who committed murder and they were sentenced by the judge to death row. All 10 are responsible for their crime and the judge was "just" in his sentencing. A little time p***es and one of the ten is pardoned by the governor. Is it a fair punishment for the remaining nine convicts who are still on death row?

[Billyray]

Do "those the Father knew, beforehand, [who] would answer His call"--come to Christ on their own without being "drawn" or "enabled" by the Father (in God's "foreknowledge")?

No, according to the Bible, God will draw them (as you know).
So when God thought about who would be saved and who would not be saved, only those who God thought about drawing would come to Him thus God did not draw ALL men in his thoughts (foreknowledge). Agree?

[Libby]

In this case it would show that God is a "just" judge.

Lets say that there are 10 convicts who committed murder and they were sentenced by the judge to death row. All 10 are responsible for their crime and the judge was "just" in his sentencing. A little time p***es and one of the ten is pardoned by the governor. Is it a fair punishment for the remaining nine convicts who are still on death row?

Only if there was a good reason for pardoning the one, without pardoning all.

In our justice system, pardons don't, usually, just "happen". They happen for a reason. Either the person is found innocent, or some kind of doubt has been raised. Or something to do with the prisoner's behavior, gives cause for a second chance.

[Libby]

Just as clarification, I'm not saying that God gives us a second chance, because he finds us innocent. That's how the situation you described (with our justice system) is different from God's pardon. I do believe his "way out" is purely by his loving grace and desire to have us come to him. But, we do have to accept his gift. We have to believe. That's the only requirement. And, I believe (from what I read in the Bible) that the gift is extended to ALL men...not just a few.

[RealFakeHair]

Just as clarification, I'm not saying that God gives us a second chance, because he finds us innocent. That's how the situation you described (with our justice system) is different from God's pardon. I do believe his "way out" is purely by his loving grace and desire to have us come to him. But, we do have to accept his gift. We have to believe. That's the only requirement. And, I believe (from what I read in the Bible) that the gift is extended to ALL men...not just a few.

Just for the record, Jesus, never said. "Think about it and come back tomorrow."

[Billyray]

Only if there was a good reason for pardoning the one, without pardoning all.

So you would say that it is unfair to punish the remaining nine convicts for committing murder?

[Billyray]

Just as clarification, I'm not saying that God gives us a second chance, because he finds us innocent. That's how the situation you described (with our justice system) is different from God's pardon.
The situation is the exact same for God's pardon and the governor pardoning the convicted criminal. So perhaps you misunderstood what I actually wrote. Go back and read the example again and see if that clears it up for you. If not ask me what you are unclear about.

[Billyray]

Do "those the Father knew, beforehand, [who] would answer His call"--come to Christ on their own without being "drawn" or "enabled" by the Father (in God's "foreknowledge")?

No, according to the Bible, God will draw them (as you know).
So when God thought about who would be saved and who would not be saved, only those who God thought about drawing would come to Him thus God did not draw ALL men in his thoughts (foreknowledge). Agree?

[Libby]

So when God thought about who would be saved and who would not be saved, only those who God thought about drawing would come to Him thus God did not draw ALL men in his thoughts (foreknowledge). Agree?

Huh?

No, I don't agree. I "agree" with exactly what I wrote.

[Libby]

Just for the record, Jesus, never said. "Think about it and come back tomorrow."

??

Sorry, I must be slow, today.

[Billyray]

So, do you believe we can be "perfect" and completely sin free, if we choose, Alan? I'm not clear on that.

Jesus seemed to think so...go read John 8:11

Jesus didnt tell the girl to "go try to cut down on the bigger sins".....or....."Try to do a few good things to counter all the bad things you will be doing"

Or....."Dont try to be sinless, rather just do the best you can"



What did he command?


It's the same he asks of you and I today too...Nothing has changed.
people back then are the same as people today.
God back then is the same God today, nothing has changed....God never asked her to do something she could not do.

But when any person sins, we have a advocate, and he will clean us of all sin.

yes, clean of all sin.

Alan have you found anyone on this board--either Christian or mormon--that agrees with your belief that a person has the ability to live a sin free life just like Jesus?

[Libby]

The situation is the exact same for God's pardon and the governor pardoning the convicted criminal. So perhaps you misunderstood what I actually wrote. Go back and read the example again and see if that clears it up for you. If not ask me what you are unclear about.

No, it's not the same. Governor's, generally, pardon for a reason (as I mentioned above). God is giving pardon as a free gift, no strings attached. All we have to do is accept it.

Since God's pardon is a free gift, given for no reason, other than He loves us, it's not really the same. Your ****ogy doesn't work.

My ****ogy (for Calvinism) would be along the lines of a parent giving gifts to their children. Suppose a parent had ten children and only ever offered gifts to one of them. Wouldn't that be a bit strange? Wouldn't you kind of wonder about that parent and their motives? Wouldn't you tend to think that parent was playing favorites?

God doesn't play favorites...and that's biblical.

[Libby]

Acts 15:9
He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.

Romans 2:11
For God does not show favoritism.

Romans 3:29
Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,

Galatians 2:6
As for those who were held in high esteem--whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not show favoritism--they added nothing to my message.

Ephesians 6:9
And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.

[Billyray]

No, it's not the same.

In my example it is the same.


Governor's, generally, pardon for a reason (as I mentioned above).

And in my example the person who was pardoned was guilty.



God is giving pardon as a free gift, no strings attached. All we have to do is accept it.

As does the 1 who is pardoned by the Governor.


Since God's pardon is a free gift, given for no reason, other than He loves us, it's not really the same. Your ****ogy doesn't work.

You falsely ***ume that it is for no other reason because of your preconceived ideas.


My ****ogy (for Calvinism) would be along the lines of a parent giving gifts to their children. Suppose a parent had ten children and only ever offered gifts to one of them. Wouldn't that be a bit strange? Wouldn't you kind of wonder about that parent and their motives? Wouldn't you tend to think that parent was playing favorites?

But those who are not saved are not his children. So your ****ogy is false. Let's use the Bible to correct your ****ogy to fit the truth.

Libby's example corrected to fit what the Bible teaches
My ****ogy (for Calvinism) would be along the lines of a parent giving gifts to their child. Suppose a parent had one child AND there are 9 ohter kids who live in your neighborhood and you gave a gift to your child but didn't a give gift to the neighborhood kids Wouldn't that be a bit strange?

What would be strange is for you to give a gift that you gave your child to every other kid who lived in your neighborhood.

[Billyray]

Acts 15:9
He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.

Acts 15:9
6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question.
7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe.
8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.

What message is Peter trying to convey with this section of scripture?

Who are "them" in verse 8?

[Billyray]

Romans 2:11 For God does not show favoritism.

Romans 2
9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;
10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.
11 For God does not show favoritism.

As above there is a comparison between the Jew and the Gentile. If a Jew breaks the commandments he will punished. If a gentile breaks the commandments he will be punished. Jews believed that because of their heritage that they would somehow be better off than the Gentiles. But Paul goes on to show them that both the Jew and the Gentile breaks the law.


BK Commentary
". . .The statement first for the Jew, then for the Gentile (lit. "Greek") does not imply special consideration for Jews. Instead, in the light of the divine standard of impartiality (God does not show favoritism), it emphasizes that the entire human race is dealt with by God. . ."