God as Spirit or flesh and bone

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Originally Posted by Billyray

But that is not what I asked. I asked if Jehovah can refer to both the Father and the Son depending on the verse?

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And I gave you an answer to this question--the LDS stance is that Jehovah is Jesus Christ.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

And I gave you an answer to this question--the LDS stance is that Jehovah is Jesus Christ.

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So your answer is no and BigJ's answer will be yes.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

So your answer is no and BigJ's answer will be yes.

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I don't speak for BJ--but the LDS stance is Jesus Christ--which is what Paul taught:


1 Cor10:1-4--"Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ********, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all p***ed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ."

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I don't speak for BJ--but the LDS stance is Jesus Christ--which is what Paul taught:

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So LORD (in all caps) in the OT exclusively speaks of Christ. Correct?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

So LORD (in all caps) in the OT exclusively speaks of Christ. Correct?

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I have no idea, there is continuing debate about that subject.

But one thing is not as debated--there were numerous Gods in the divine council. They were referred to as Elohim, or sons of God, or both. They were a heavenly host.

That is all that is needed to destroy the faith alone Trinitarian theology. If that is true--faith alone theology is false--end of story.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

--there were numerous Gods in the divine council.

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Who are these gods in the divine council in Psalm 82?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Who are these gods in the divine council in Psalm 82?

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Which ones---in the first verse it speaks to all divine beings (angels, etc)---and then later it speaks of those who have been called as judges and rulers.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Which ones---in the first verse it speaks to all divine beings (angels, etc)---and then later it speaks of those who have been called as judges and rulers.

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You seem to differ from DB on this. So in verse 1 the gods are you spiritual brothers?

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

---and then later it speaks of those who have been called as judges and rulers.

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and these are simply unrighteous humans?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

and these are simply unrighteous humans?

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whom God calls judges and rulers. Do you think the angels you are to judge in the next life are "unrighteous angels" are part of this council as well?

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

whom God calls judges and rulers.

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Which are mere humans correct?

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Do you think the angels you are to judge in the next life are "unrighteous angels" are part of this council as well?

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There are not angels in Psalm 82.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

There are not angels in Psalm 82.

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The word "elohim" is also translated as "angels" in the OT.

1) (plural)

a) rulers, judges

b) divine ones

c) angels

d) gods


Why are you insistent that the "gods" spoken of in this council which God rules is "rulers and judges" but not angels?

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Why are you insistent that the "gods" spoken of in this council which God rules is "rulers and judges" but not angels?

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Because of context

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Because of context

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In the context, there is nothing to say that in verse 1, God narrowly defines His council as only human judges and rulers. You might narrowly define God that way, but the Bible doesn't.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

In the context, there is nothing to say that in verse 1, God narrowly defines His council as only human judges and rulers. You might narrowly define God that way, but the Bible doesn't.

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Read the surrounding verses.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Read the surrounding verses.

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Even reading the surrounding verses. The first verse makes a broad definition of who God is. If you don't think He rules the angels---well, I disagree.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Even reading the surrounding verses. The first verse makes a broad definition of who God is. If you don't think He rules the angels---well, I disagree.

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Even Talmage understood that these were human judges.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

James Talmage "Jesus the Christ"
"Plainly they had found no ambiguity in His words. He then cited to them the scriptures, wherein even judges empowered by divine authority are called gods, 9 and asked: "Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken: say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?"

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Even Talmage understood that these were human judges.

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I think he is speaking of Psalms 82:6 not Psalms 82:1 which speaks to who God is and that He rules the divine council (which is in no way limited to only human judges.)

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

I think he is speaking of Psalms 82:6 not Psalms 82:1 which speaks to who God is and that He rules the divine council (which is in no way limited to only human judges.)

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When reading the Psalm in contex why do you think the gods in verse 1 are different than the gods in verse 6?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

When reading the Psalm in contex why do you think the gods in verse 1 are different than the gods in verse 6?

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Because it is a broad declaration in verse 1 of who God is. Why would you think that the mighty is ONLY the judges especially in light that they were being wicked at the time---why on earth would God call then "mighty" then?

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Because it is a broad declaration in verse 1 of who God is.

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1*God presides in the great ***embly he renders judgment among the “gods”:

I am speaking about "among the gods". Why do you think that these are different gods than in verse 6 when reading the entire Psalm in contex?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

1*God presides in the great ***embly he renders judgment among the “gods”:

I am speaking about "among the gods". Why do you think that these are different gods than in verse 6 when reading the entire Psalm in contex?

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In reading the entire text of Psalms 82....in verse one, it is clearly a broad definition that God rules all rulers, in heaven and on earth.

Isa 24:21 ¶ And it shall come to p*** in that day, [that] the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones [that are] on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

Psalms 82:6 lend one to believe that those who are ruling on earth are not doing a good ***. Hence, he rules all---you children of the Most High God who have been called by Him are not doing.

Who do you think is being referred to at the end of the verse:

Psa 82:8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Who is going to "inherit" all nations?

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

In reading the entire text of Psalms 82....in verse one, it is clearly a broad definition that God rules all rulers, in heaven and on earth.

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It doesn't say that in context at all.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

It doesn't say that in context at all.

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Yes it does.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Yes it does.

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Lets look at it verse by verse then.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Lets look at it verse by verse then.

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Okay......................

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Okay......................

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A psalm of Asaph.

1 God presides in the great ***embly; he renders judgment among the “gods”:
2 How long will you defend the unjust and show partiality to the wicked?
3 Defend the weak and the fatherless;

Who are the "you" in verse 2?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

A psalm of Asaph.

1 God presides in the great ***embly; he renders judgment among the “gods”:
2 How long will you defend the unjust and show partiality to the wicked?
3 Defend the weak and the fatherless;

Who are the "you" in verse 2?

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Who is in the "great ***embly"---are there only human judges and rulers?

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

I think he is speaking of Psalms 82:6 not Psalms 82:1 which speaks to who God is and that He rules the divine council (which is in no way limited to only human judges.)

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And don't forget that Talmadge quote is over 75 years old. He didn't have the benefit of all the research and discovery that has gone on since he wrote those words. Even Nibley said he could not be held accountable for anything he said or wrote over 10 years before.

Marvin

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Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

And don't forget that Talmadge quote is over 75 years old. He didn't have the benefit of all the research and discovery that has gone on since he wrote those words. Even Nibley said he could not be held accountable for anything he said or wrote over 10 years before.

Marvin

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So much for having confidence in your inspired leaders.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

So much for having confidence in your inspired leaders.

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He died in 1933. He belongs to a past era and his writings reflect the learning and wisdom of that time. We have learned a lot more in the 79 years since his death. I would hope that we would apply that learning to our faith. We don't think that God stopped talking 2,000 years ago, like you do.

Marvin

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Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

He died in 1933.

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Joseph died well before that is his stuff still considered accurate?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Joseph died well before that is his stuff still considered accurate?

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No, as far as his personal opinions and learning of the day.

But the revelations he received and the scriptures that he wrote, yes, absolutely.

Marvin

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Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

He died in 1933. He belongs to a past era and his writings reflect the learning and wisdom of that time. We have learned a lot more in the 79 years since his death. I would hope that we would apply that learning to our faith. We don't think that God stopped talking 2,000 years ago, like you do.

Marvin

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God didn't know all things 79 years ago? Or is it that prophets weren't real prophets 79 years ago? OR MAYBE, like today, LDS prophets rely only on themselves and not on revelations from God... IHS jim

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Originally Posted by James Banta

God didn't know all things 79 years ago? Or is it that prophets weren't real prophets 79 years ago? OR MAYBE, like today, LDS prophets rely only on themselves and not on revelations from God... IHS jim

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I find it very telling how the Mormons here pretend to know what Christianity teaches while there is nothing whatsoever Christian about Mormonism, yet they falsely try to pawn themselves of as being more Christian than what we Holy and True Christians actually are.

What makes them think they can get away with proclaiming themselves to be the true Christians and us Holy Christians the false ones when we have proven Mormonism to be false and Smith a false prophet over and over and over almost since the day Smith vomited out his unholy "religion?"

I mean, after all, we are the ones that line up with God's one and only Standard, the Bible, while they add to the Bible, twist Scripture and take it out of context beyond recognition and then hopelessly try to use it against us and proving to everyone just how Satanic Mormonism is and how false of a religion Mormonism is while pretending all the while that Smith was a Prophet of God rather than acknowledging that he has been proven beyond any doubt whatsoever to be a false prophet and lying con man that only pretended to hear from God making me think, because of how far from the truth he was, that he most likely didn't even believe in God.

After all, who in their right mind would stick their neck out like Smith did pretending he was visited by God and making God the Father/God the Son/God the Holy Spirit (The Triune God) a liar, knowing good and well that God would surely punish him greatly for lying about everything he lied about if he actually believed in God?

But, then again, all of us here know that Smith lied and conned so much, he must have believed his own cons and lies, deceiving himself and causing his sanity to be extremely questionable.

Say Hi to the Mrs. for me and my wife,

Your Brother in Christ Jesus,

Brother Andrew

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[akaSeerone;132385]I find it very telling how the Mormons here pretend to know what Christianity teaches while there is nothing whatsoever Christian about Mormonism, yet they falsely try to pawn themselves of as being more Christian than what we Holy and True Christians actually are.

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You are as always correct.. We must add that the ONLY reason we are Holy and true is because Jesus is Holy and true and He imputes His righteousness on us because of our faith in Him and not because we are better that others..

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What makes them think they can get away with proclaiming themselves to be the true Christians and us Holy Christians the false ones when we have proven Mormonism to be false and Smith a false prophet over and over and over almost since the day Smith vomited out his unholy "religion?"

I mean, after all, we are the ones that line up with God's one and only Standard, the Bible, while they add to the Bible, twist Scripture and take it out of context beyond recognition and then hopelessly try to use it against us and proving to everyone just how Satanic Mormonism is and how false of a religion Mormonism is while pretending all the while that Smith was a Prophet of God rather than acknowledging that he has been proven beyond any doubt whatsoever to be a false prophet and lying con man that only pretended to hear from God making me think, because of how far from the truth he was, that he most likely didn't even believe in God.

After all, who in their right mind would stick their neck out like Smith did pretending he was visited by God and making God the Father/God the Son/God the Holy Spirit (The Triune God) a liar, knowing good and well that God would surely punish him greatly for lying about everything he lied about if he actually believed in God?

But, then again, all of us here know that Smith lied and conned so much, he must have believed his own cons and lies, deceiving himself and causing his sanity to be extremely questionable.

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And except for the grace of God we would be like them or be completely Godless as is most of the people of the world..

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Say Hi to the Mrs. for me and my wife,

Your Brother in Christ Jesus,

Brother Andrew

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Just did, you remain in our prayers and our hearts.. IHS jim

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Originally Posted by James Banta

You are as always correct.. We must add that the ONLY reason we are Holy and true is because Jesus is Holy and true and He imputes His righteousness on us because of our faith in Him and not because we are better that others..

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Amen to that.

And the writer of Hebrews agrees with what we are saying:

Hebrews 10

5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world,(J) he said:

“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;(K)
6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
7 Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll(L)—
I have come to do your will, my God.’”[a](M)

8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”(N)—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.”(O)

He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy(P) through the sacrifice of the body(Q) of Jesus Christ once for all.(R)


11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices,(S) which can never take away sins.(T) 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins,(U) he sat down at the right hand of God,(V) 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool.(W)

14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect(X) forever those who are being made holy.(Y)

15 The Holy Spirit also testifies(Z) to us about this. First he says:

16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[b](AA)

17 Then he adds:

“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”[c](AB)

18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.

Not only does this teach us that we are made Holy through Jesus Christ, it also refutes a number of other things that Mormonism teaches. Amen

Brother Andrew

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Originally Posted by Russianwolfe View Post
And don't forget that Talmadge quote is over 75 years old. He didn't have the benefit of all the research and discovery that has gone on since he wrote those words. Even Nibley said he could not be held accountable for anything he said or wrote over 10 years before.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

So much for having confidence in your inspired leaders.

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So--would you apply that same reasoning to Jesus? :

St Mark4:31--"It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth:"

DB did you get banned again on CARM?

What did you do this time?