God as Spirit or flesh and bone

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Originally Posted by Billyray

DB did you get banned again on CARM?

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Yes. I get banned about every 4-5 days. 7 days this time.

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What did you do this time?

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The same thing I do here--present Biblical arguments that dispels any truth to the faith alone theology.

CARM won't allow any LDS to do that. Jill tolerates it here.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Yes. I get banned about every 4-5 days. 7 days this time.



The same thing I do here--present Biblical arguments that dispels any truth to the faith alone theology.

CARM won't allow any LDS to do that. Jill tolerates it here.

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I have yet to see one Biblical argument you put forth here about any subject that is peculiarly LDS.. NOT One.. Not three degrees of glory, not three separate Gods, not a man being a god in embryo. Nothing you have said about priesthood, it's purpose or who may hold it is Biblical. Nothing about the nature of God nor His origin is Biblical.. You just haven't shown much of anything about mormonism that is Biblical.. IHS jim

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The same thing I do here--present Biblical arguments that dispels any truth to the faith alone theology.

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So you are telling me that you didn't break a rule?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

DB did you get banned again on CARM?

What did you do this time?

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Change of subject here? A question meant to derail?? :D :D

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Change of subject here? A question meant to derail??

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He is a rule breaker. I was wondering which rule he broke this time.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

He is a rule breaker. I was wondering which rule he broke this time.

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I don't see dberrie as a "rule breaker". CARM is very biased against LDS, so it doesn't surprise me that they get banned often, for next to nothing. I've even been banned from there a couple of times....the only board of the many boards I post on, from which I have ever been banned.

I know that you have been banned from this board, at least, once, Billyray. Are you a "rule breaker", as well?

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Originally Posted by Libby

I don't see dberrie as a "rule breaker". CARM is very biased against LDS, so it doesn't surprise me that they get banned often, for next to nothing.

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So you believe that he was banned without breaking a rule?

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Originally Posted by Libby

I don't see dberrie as a "rule breaker". CARM is very biased against LDS, so it doesn't surprise me that they get banned often, for next to nothing. I've even been banned from there a couple of times....the only board of the many boards I post on, from which I have ever been banned.

I know that you have been banned from this board, at least, once, Billyray. Are you a "rule breaker", as well?

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Libby, CARM is toxic that way. If you want to see what true oppression looks like---look how Mormons are treated at CARM.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Libby, CARM is toxic that way. If you want to see what true oppression looks like---look how Mormons are treated at CARM.

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BigJ why don't you post on Carm? Perhaps you might awaken from your slumber.

BTW what do you think about the temple recordings?

I told you and Libby that as Mitt gets closer to becomming the president that Mormonism will get more and more exposed to what it really teaches--which of course is a good thing.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

BigJ why don't you post on Carm? Perhaps you might awaken from your slumber.

BTW what do you think about the temple recordings?

I told you and Libby that as Mitt gets closer to becomming the president that Mormonism will get more and more exposed to what it really teaches--which of course is a good thing.

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I have---decided it was an oppressive and toxic place.

I don't have any problem with more people learning about Mormonism. Many have an open mind.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

I don't have any problem with more people learning about Mormonism. Many have an open mind.

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So putting videos of the temple ceremony is a good thing in your opinion since it helps people learn more about Mormonism?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

So putting videos of the temple ceremony is a good thing in your opinion since it helps people learn more about Mormonism?

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Billyray---and honest dialogue is fine. What you do here is something else. :eek:

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Billyray---and honest dialogue is fine. What you do here is something else.

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So you have no problem having an open and honest dialogue about the temple ceremony?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

So you have no problem having an open and honest dialogue about the temple ceremony?

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It is not honest to trample the sacred teachings of others beliefs. As God says "the milk before the meat."

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

It is not honest to trample the sacred teachings of others beliefs. As God says "the milk before the meat."

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I thought you just said "honest dialogue is fine". Are you backtracking on that one now?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

I thought you just said "honest dialogue is fine". Are you backtracking on that one now?

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It is fine. It is dishonest to trample the sacred beliefs of others.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

It is fine. It is dishonest to trample the sacred beliefs of others.

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We talk about the Bible ceremony which is sacred. Are you open to talk about the secret LDS ceremony?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

We talk about the Bible ceremony which is sacred. Are you open to talk about the secret LDS ceremony?

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You don't even know the Bible ceremony. Tell me the exact words the Levites used when sacrificing a lamb?

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

You don't even know the Bible ceremony. Tell me the exact words the Levites used when sacrificing a lamb?

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Since we can talk about the Bible temple ceremony which is sacred can we talk about the LDS ceremony?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Since we can talk about the Bible temple ceremony which is sacred can we talk about the LDS ceremony?

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The Bible ceremony is no longer used. When we stop using the LDS ceremony--you are welcome to discuss it all you like. ;)

But as noted, you don't even know the wording of the Bible ceremonies.

[QUOTE=dberrie2000;128405]Whoa, hossy. You likened the Trinity to water in steam, ice, and liquid. I stated ok, but not at the same time." [QUOTE]

The triple point of water is three simultaenous forms of the same substance.

Just sayin it can happen to the substances in the world He created why would not something similar be true of Him?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Sorry, JD, but that dog just ain't gonna hunt. One cannot state that there are different persons as God, and ***ign them two different substances--one a physical body,(God the Son) and the other without a physical body(God the Father) and then state it is the same substance.

Unless you want to establish the fact, that as God, where they all combine--- there is only one--that they are of the same substance. In that case--is it a Spirit and a physical Body--or just a Spirit?




Christ not only "added" a body--He still has it. That means that Christ has a physical body and a Spirit--and God the Father has a Spirit only.

Does God have a physical body?

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If God is Spirit why do you state the Father HAS a spirit?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Sorry, JD, but that dog just ain't gonna hunt. One cannot state that there are different persons as God, and ***ign them two different substances--one a physical body,(God the Son) and the other without a physical body(God the Father) and then state it is the same substance.

Unless you want to establish the fact, that as God, where they all combine--- there is only one--that they are of the same substance. In that case--is it a Spirit and a physical Body--or just a Spirit?




Christ not only "added" a body--He still has it. That means that Christ has a physical body and a Spirit--and God the Father has a Spirit only.

Does God have a physical body?

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Originally Posted by MacG

If God is Spirit why do you state the Father HAS a spirit?

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Haggling with the term "has" is not going to solve the Trinitarian problem of ***igning different substances to a God they describe as a "****ousious" God.

Either God has, is, possesses---you choose the word you like---a body and a Spirit or He does not.

Taking Christ and stating that He has a Body of flesh and bones--and God the Father does not cannot amount to a ****ousious God.

If it does--can you explain how?

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Originally Posted by Libby

I don't see dberrie as a "rule breaker". CARM is very biased against LDS, so it doesn't surprise me that they get banned often, for next to nothing. I've even been banned from there a couple of times....the only board of the many boards I post on, from which I have ever been banned.

I know that you have been banned from this board, at least, once, Billyray. Are you a "rule breaker", as well?

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Thanks for the confidence, Libby. Billyray did no better there chasing me than he does here. CARM bans whomever they want to--they make their rules up as they go along.

[QUOTE=dberrie2000;128405]Whoa, hossy. You likened the Trinity to water in steam, ice, and liquid. I stated ok, but not at the same time." [QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by MacG

The triple point of water is three simultaenous forms of the same substance.

Just sayin it can happen to the substances in the world He created why would not something similar be true of Him?

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Again--but not at the same time. The Bible, for instance, has God the Father and Jesus Christ at the same location at the same time, such as Matthew17.

[QUOTE=dberrie2000;133063][QUOTE=dberrie2000;128405]Whoa, hossy. You likened the Trinity to water in steam, ice, and liquid. I stated ok, but not at the same time."

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Again--but not at the same time. The Bible, for instance, has God the Father and Jesus Christ at the same location at the same time, such as Matthew17.

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That is the meaning of simultaenous as demonstrated in the triple point...unless of course I have been misinformed.

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Gas–liquid–solid triple pointMain article: Water (molecule)#Triple point
A typical phase diagram. The dotted green line gives the anomalous behaviour of waterThe single combination of pressure and temperature at which liquid water, solid ice, and water vapour can coexist in a stable equilibrium occurs at exactly 273.16 K (0.01 °C) and a partial vapour pressure of 611.73 pascals (ca. 6.1173 millibars, 0.0060373

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The baptism has all three there at the same time.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

CARM bans whomever they want to--they make their rules up as they go along.

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Weren't you breaking a rule by not linking back to original posts especially after you were told to do so by another poster?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Weren't you breaking a rule by not linking back to original posts especially after you were told to do so by another poster?

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I received no information to the such from a moderator.

As Knox showed--Alexandra did not link to the reference she had with her posts, if that is the poster you refer to who complained.

The forum is quite loose when it comes to such things. Things get stirred up when the faith alone discovered that I could not be put down. They vented in any way they could find--even if it meant they were proven hypocrites in doing so.

[QUOTE=MacG;133140][QUOTE=dberrie2000;133063]

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Whoa, hossy. You likened the Trinity to water in steam, ice, and liquid. I stated ok, but not at the same time."

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Originally Posted by MacG

That is the meaning of simultaenous as demonstrated in the triple point...unless of course I have been misinformed.

The baptism has all three there at the same time.

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Which means that the water, steam, and ice is not a good ****ogy. They are not the same substance in all three states at the same time--it can only be one of the three, at the same time.

A "****ousious" God is just that--same substance.

Not friendly to Trinitarian doctrines.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Haggling with the term "has" is not going to solve the Trinitarian problem of ***igning different substances to a God they describe as a "****ousious" God.

Either God has, is, possesses---you choose the word you like---a body and a Spirit or He does not.

Taking Christ and stating that He has a Body of flesh and bones--and God the Father does not cannot amount to a ****ousious God.

If it does--can you explain how?

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Haggling? It is a discinction with a diference. You theology says that the Father has a body and a spirit. Ours says the Father is Spirit.

Paul exorcised a spirit that was following for calimg Jesus was A way. Was he haggling?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Haggling with the term "has" is not going to solve the Trinitarian problem of ***igning different substances to a God they describe as a "****ousious" God.

Either God has, is, possesses---you choose the word you like---a body and a Spirit or He does not.

Taking Christ and stating that He has a Body of flesh and bones--and God the Father does not cannot amount to a ****ousious God.

If it does--can you explain how?

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Originally Posted by MacG

You theology says that the Father has a body and a spirit. Ours says the Father is Spirit.

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And this is the problem with the Trinitarian theology--if God the Father does not have a body--and Jesus Christ has a body--could you explain the "****ousious" God?

You do realize that "****ousious" means same substance--right?

How can God be the same substance and be made up of different substances such as the Father and Son are in the Trinitarian theology?

[QUOTE=dberrie2000;133144][QUOTE=MacG;133140]

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Which means that the water, steam, and ice is not a good ****ogy. They are not the same substance in all three states at the same time--it can only be one of the three, at the same time.

A "****ousious" God is just that--same substance.

Not friendly to Trinitarian doctrines.

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See I learn something new everyday. I always thought that steam, water and ice were all the substance H2O. Now that I have learned what they are not, what they made of?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I received no information to the such from a moderator.

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But you have received this information in the past from a moderator. Yet you persist ? Why?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

And this is the problem with the Trinitarian theology--if God the Father does not have a body--and Jesus Christ has a body--could you explain the "****ousious" God?

You do realize that "****ousious" means same substance--right?

How can God be the same substance and be made up of different substances such as the Father and Son are in the Trinitarian theology?

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The paradigm of the TCJCLDS theology is what is constraining any possibility of understanding this. While not an exact picture, the three simultaneous forms of one substance ought to give you a glimmer of how this can be. The substance of God, and I am going out on a limb here, is probably more complex than H2O.

I cannot break it down any more than is explained in the New Testament and the BoM. There is one God, the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. The New Testament tells us this one God has conversations within itself. The Father sends the Son and the Holy Spirit descends as a dove from the heavens while the Father speaks of His Son. It tells us that before the Son was found in the form of a man that He was equal with God (in more than one place by different writers). Wheras in the Old Testament God tells us in no uncertain terms that He has no equal. All three are represented as God and all three exhibit qualities that we would recognize as personhood, namley emotion but not to rule out interactive intelligence yet there is one God. I am comfortable at this point to say that the God that can resurrect billions of bodies dead for thousands of years (that's a lot of atoms) is more complex than the universe and is more complex than I can comprehend so I am content to apprehend the concept without being able to see completely through the smoked gl***.

If the Father God is the only one with whom we have to deal why is your Church dedicated to another glorified human God?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post


Which means that the water, steam, and ice is not a good ****ogy. They are not the same substance in all three states at the same time--it can only be one of the three, at the same time.

A "****ousious" God is just that--same substance.

Not friendly to Trinitarian doctrines.

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Originally Posted by MacG

See I learn something new everyday. I always thought that steam, water and ice were all the substance H2O. Now that I have learned what they are not, what they made of?

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Could you provide a cite where I have maintained that water, steam, and ice do not cons***ute the same substance?

Water, steam, and ice can all be made of the same substance. But they do not cons***ute God the Father or God the Son.

The only point I have made about water, steam, and ice is that if I had a cup of water--it could not be all three conditions of water, steam, and ice at the same time. Matthew 17 has the Father and Son at the same location, at the same time.

If God the Father is a Spirit--and Jesus Christ has a body of flesh and bone--then that is where the different substances occur--- not water, steam, and ice.

How are those two different substances of the Father and Son considered a "****ousiosus" God?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

But you have received this information in the past from a moderator. Yet you persist ? Why?

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I don't. I use the quote function now on the CARM forum. You are confusing the quote function with a link within the quote function.

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Originally Posted by MacG

The paradigm of the TCJCLDS theology is what is constraining any possibility of understanding this. While not an exact picture, the three simultaneous forms of one substance ought to give you a glimmer of how this can be.

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But that is just it--the trinitarians have it different substances--God the Father as a Spirit--God the Son with a physical Body of flesh and bone. They do not consider those the same substance. If they do--please give a cite and explanation of that.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

But that is just it--the trinitarians have it different substances--God the Father as a Spirit--God the Son with a physical Body of flesh and bone. They do not consider those the same substance. If they do--please give a cite and explanation of that.

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That is correct...

The Father is pure spirit.
The son is pure spirit, and also human too.

Jesus has two natures......
The Son is both fully God, and fully human.

Equal to the father in his nature as God
Equal to me in his nature as a brother human.

Of the same "substance" (whatever that term means?) as the father, in that he is God.
The same "substance" as me, in that he is fully a normal guy.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post--But that is just it--the trinitarians have it different substances--God the Father as a Spirit--God the Son with a physical Body of flesh and bone. They do not consider those the same substance. If they do--please give a cite and explanation of that.

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

That is correct...

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Well, if that is correct, that leaves the Trinitarians in the unenviable position of trying to explain how they believe in the "****ousious"(same substance) God.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Could you provide a cite where I have maintained that water, steam, and ice do not cons***ute the same substance?

Water, steam, and ice can all be made of the same substance. But they do not cons***ute God the Father or God the Son.

The only point I have made about water, steam, and ice is that if I had a cup of water--it could not be all three conditions of water, steam, and ice at the same time. Matthew 17 has the Father and Son at the same location, at the same time.

If God the Father is a Spirit--and Jesus Christ has a body of flesh and bone--then that is where the different substances occur--- not water, steam, and ice.

How are those two different substances of the Father and Son considered a "****ousiosus" God?

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From your previous post:

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They are not the same substance in all three states at the same time--it can only be one of the three, at the same time.

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It seems that you still are not sure about either for you use the phrase "can be made of" what else can liquid water, water vapor and frozen water be made of?

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The only point I have made about water, steam, and ice is that if I had a cup of water--it could not be all three conditions of water, steam, and ice at the same time.

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And the triple point empirically demonstrates it does occur "at exactly 273.16 K (0.01 °C) and a partial vapour pressure of 611.73 pascals (ca. 6.1173 millibars, 0.0060373".