A "what if" question for critics.

[alanmolstad]

so it is totally correct to believe that both man has free will AND that god is in full control

for that is what the bible teaches!

[alanmolstad]

the bible teaches that god has called "all men" ......not " some men".

if god has not already called all.men then some in hell would be there only due to gods lack of calling....and that would mean they are in hell via not fault of their ownn. and that would mean we worship the wrong god

[disciple]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

so it is totally correct to believe that both man has free will AND that god is in full control

for that is what the bible teaches!

You are correct Alan. There can be no true fact that does not ultimately point back to God. All truth, upon ****ysis drives one right to Jesus Christ, our
reasoning is worthless unless it is based on the truth of the scriptures. God draws men to Himself, provides choices, gives us His word to measure
these choices and then the freedom to choose. To choose what He presents as right and good, even if we do not understand it (faith) or to choose
some other way and there are many.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Does man have the free will (or ability) to come to Christ without divine intervention?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

can anyone innhell blame god?

cannanyonenin hell say that the only reason they were in hell was due to a lack of calling on gods part?


NO! !!!!


we have free will and god has already called " all men" in christ

Your post is not very clear. Is that a yes or a no to my question?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Your post is not very clear. Is that a yes or a no to my question?

when do i answer with just a yes or no?......

ever?.............

[alanmolstad]

so man has free will.....but the lord also is in control....


here is a question for you Billy......when the lord cried over the people of the city.....did they lack something that made them unable to come to god?

or when jeusus tells them they " would not" does this place the blame onto the people themselves?


what really is the difference between " would not" and " could not?

[alanmolstad]

so no man comes to faith in christ but that the father first draw him...

for the calling is to "all men"......

this means that the father is busy each day drawing all men to the son.

But Alan if the father draws all men why do some men not believe?........FREE WILL!

Free Will is why some dont believe......this is why men are to blame for not believeing because all men did receive a calling...the calling of god goes out to "ALL MEN"


so the cross of christ is sufficient to save all men...for that was god's will...

But the cross is efficient only in the hearts of they that respond...for that is the way Free Will works...

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

so no man comes to faith in christ but that the father first draw him...

for the calling is to "all men"......

this means that the father is busy each day drawing all men to the son.

But Alan if the father draws all men why do some men not believe?........FREE WILL!

Free Will is why some dont believe......this is why men are to blame for not believeing because all men did receive a calling...the calling of god goes out to "ALL MEN"


so the cross of christ is sufficient to save all men...for that was god's will...

But the cross is efficient only in the hearts of they that respond...for that is the way Free Will works...

Is what you are saying is this; each day God of the Holy Bible has his fingers crossed hoping all men will come to him that day?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

Is what you are saying is this; each day God of the Holy Bible has his fingers crossed hoping all men will come to him that day?

the invisible things of god are revealed in the things that are made....therefor all men are without excuse.

the things that are made reveal gods handywork and love each day...

so god draws all men every day...

but humans have free will and that is why some people quench the Spirit's fire in their heart

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

Is what you are saying is this; each day God of the Holy Bible has his fingers crossed hoping all men will come to him that day?

i do not know of a verse that deals with the fingers....but i do have a verse that teaches god would have gathered people under his wings like a hen gathers her chicks...but the people refused.

free will allows you the ability to seek god and turn your heart to him but it also gives you the ability to say " no" to him....

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I have read your posts and I don't understand how you can hold the position you do especially after you told me that man is incapable of coming to Christ unless God intervenes and draws him first. Did I misstate your position? If so please help me understand what you really believe.

My position has been stated very clearly in every post I've made, Billy. If you can't understand plain English, I can't help you.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

My position has been stated very clearly in every post I've made, Billy. If you can't understand plain English, I can't help you.

Libby has never dealt with the question of whether God knows who will come to Him and who will not.. Did He or did He not always have that knowledge? If He has always known (that is my position) why would it be wrong to destine all He knew would come to Him unto life and those He knew would reject Him to ****ation in the Lake of Fire? By saying that predestination is a lie is to limit the power and omniscience of God. In short they limit God and lessen his power.. That is Blasphemy.. Libby can go on committing that sin but in doing she proves that she is not His child.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

there is not a single verse in the bible to support the idea that God predestined people to hell....!

[alanmolstad]

the people that think God predestined people to hell have a very poor grasp of our Loving God

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

the people that think God predestined people to hell have a very poor grasp of our Loving God

You are kidding right? Even though such people are so predestined Jesus still went to the cross and died for them.. The gate is wide open. Just because God has knowledge of who and who will not come through that gate has nothing to do with not understanding the level of Love that was shown in that act.. Maybe it's those that can't accept that God is omniscient that have a very poor grasp of our Loving God.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by James Banta

You are kidding right? Even though such people are so predestined Jesus still went to the cross and died for them.. The gate is wide open. Just because God has knowledge of who and who will not come through that gate has nothing to do with not understanding the level of Love that was shown in that act.. Maybe it's those that can't accept that God is omniscient that have a very poor grasp of our Loving God.. IHS jim

try to find a verse in the bible that teaches that god predestined some people to hell............try......

[alanmolstad]

http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow....a-bible-study/

a article about how human free will and gods sovereignty work hand in hand and dont get each others way

[alanmolstad]

god does not predestine people to hell.......

in other words God does not send anyone to hell.....

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

My position has been stated very clearly in every post I've made, Billy. If you can't understand plain English, I can't help you.

Libby in plain English you have given me your position which doesn't make any sense. On the one hand you have said that man is incapable of accepting Christ on his own--which is the same position that I hold. Yet you still maintain that man has free will. Don't you see the problem with your position?

[alanmolstad]

http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow....a-bible-study/


yes libby we do have free will.....and yet we rely on the father just as jesus did........

( just hang in there...you are doing fine)

[Libby]

That's correct, Alan and thank you.

Billy, there is a big difference between not having the "ability" to come to Christ (as you believe) and not having the "knowledge" to come to Christ (before the Father draws us), which is what *I* believe. We have the ability, we just don't have the information or knowledge (scriptures, testimony, Holy Spirit, etc) necessary to make the choice. We are not so crippled by sin that we cannot see goodness and truth, when it is put before us.

God puts it before us and gives a little tug on our heart. Once we start moving in his direction (of our own free will), he will change our hearts completely (little by little)...IF we allow it. We have to choose him and then we must also make the decision to surrender to Him. Once surrendered..He does an amazing work in us.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

We have the ability, we just don't have the information or knowledge (scriptures, testimony, Holy Spirit, etc) necessary to make the choice.

You said before that a person could not come to Christ unless drawn by the Father.

If everyone has the "ability" to come to Christ then can anyone come to Him without being drawn by the Father?

[Libby]

We've gone over this quite enough. I have explained my position and thoughts more than adequately.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

We've gone over this quite enough. I have explained my position and thoughts more than adequately.

The problem is that they are your position and thoughts that have no foundation in God's word.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by James Banta

The problem is that they are your position and thoughts that have no foundation in God's word.. IHS jim

i think that some of the teachings of Calvinism have no foundation in God's word.

Calvinists fall back on "men's reasoning" to support some of their views because not all of their views are found in the bible.
The problem with the use of "men's reasoning' is that its flawed much of the time.