A "what if" question for critics.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Being drawn means that God is making us aware of Him (in various ways), as I mentioned in one of my other posts. We may..or may not..respond. What does it mean to you?

To "drag" or "haul in".

Let's look at the same exact word and how it is used in a couple of other verses in the NT.

ESV

Jhn 21:6 He said to them, “Cast the net on the right side of the boat, and you will find some.” So they cast it, and now they were not able to haul it in, because of the quan***y of fish.

Jhn 21:1 So Simon Peter went aboard and hauled the net ashore, full of large fish, 153 of them. And although there were so many, the net was not torn.

Act 16:19 But when her owners saw that their hope of gain was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace before the rulers.

Act 21:30 Then all the city was stirred up, and the people ran together. They seized Paul and dragged him out of the temple, and at once the gates were shut.

Jas 2:6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Are not the rich the ones who oppress you, and the ones who drag you into court?

[alanmolstad]

in our context i would say that the calling is never louder that that still small voice......

overlooked like scattered seeds in the wind to some....

yet enough to bring tears in others........thats free will for ya

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

To "drag" or "haul in".

Let's look at the same exact word and how it is used in a couple of other verses in the NT.

I don't think those examples have the same meaning.

"To draw" can also mean "to attract"....and that is the kind of drawing I believe God is doing.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

in our context i would say that the calling is never louder that that still small voice......

overlooked like scattered seeds in the wind to some....

yet enough to bring tears in others........thats free will for ya

The still, small voice...yes...

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

The still, small voice...yes...

while I would love to take credit for the wording.......turns out it like every other thing I post here.....is from the bible

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

while I would love to take credit for the wording.......turns out it like every other thing I post here.....is from the bible

Yes, I know!

1 Kings 19

11 The Lord said, “Go out and stand on the mountain in the presence of the Lord, for the Lord is about to p*** by.”

11 Then a great and powerful wind tore the mountains apart and shattered the rocks before the Lord, but the Lord was not in the wind.

After the wind there was an earthquake, but the Lord was not in the earthquake.

12 After the earthquake came a fire, but the Lord was not in the fire. And after the fire came a gentle whisper.

13 When Elijah heard it, he pulled his cloak over his face and went out and stood at the mouth of the cave.

Then a voice said to him, “What are you doing here, Elijah?”

[alanmolstad]

yes!.....

so many of us pointless bicker over the "calling" or the fact that God "draws" all of us without bothering to stop and ask...."What is that sound like?"...

Its not a push....its not a bump....its not even a poke...

It's the most gentle of whispers.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I don't think those examples have the same meaning.

Of course you don't because it doesn't go along with your preconceived ideas. But that is how the Greek word is used in other sentences in the NT. And let's see how it is used in the verse that we are discussing.

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

In this verse those who are drawn are raised.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

This is an excellent topic to discuss but we have to take it step by step in order to understand each other's position. Let's start with the following.

God has given us commandments to follow and we all have a choice to obey or disobey His commandments. Agree or disagree?

Bump for Libby.

[James Banta]

[QUOTE=BigJulie;155190]

Originally Posted by James Banta

No, that is the Godhead. Christ still submitted to the will of the Father. Christ is still the Son of God. Christ still was resurrected, and has a body. Christ is still the express image of the Father. Christ called His Father, our Father and His God our God. The Father spoke of His Son of whom He was well pleased. The concept of the trinity denies those distinctions.

Really? There are no distinction of Father, Son. and Holy Spirit in the doctrine of the Trinity? I guess you are so unlearned that you don't understand the what the doctrine teaches.. There you will find three distinct and individual Persons. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit each a different personality yet one and the same God..After all it is impossible for there to be one God without *******izing the scripture to change the meaning from what we have preserved by many different scribes as to what the Holy Spirit gave them.. Moses recorded that The Lord our God in one Lord. Isaiah related that no God other than the one true God was ever formed nor will one ever be formed. Jesus agreed with Moses that God is one Lord.. The along comes Joseph Smith and he say NO, these records of Gods word are all wrong and have been changed by evil and corrupt men.. They left out the phrase "In purpose".. Tell us all just what gain was there for evil men to remove that statement? Who gained by changing the nature of God from what is recorded today from that which Smith insisted was the original? Let me help you. There was nothing to be gained and no one did.. Smith changed the nature of God far beyond that. Smith changed God from the PURE Spirit Being the Church had worshiped for well over a millennium and a half to being a physical, tangible, finite, and worse a sexual being.

Smith said that God has a body of flesh and bone as tangible as man's. Jesus said that God is Spirit, and that a Spirit has no body of flesh and bone.. By the Psalmist the Holy Spirit made it clear that God has been GOD from everlasting to Everlasting. But Smith said that he woud tell us ho God became God. Tell me how does a Being that has always been God become God? Again the Holy Spirit through the prophet Isaiah tells us that God is God and beside Him there is no Savior. But the prophets of mormonism have taught that "If we should take a million of worlds like this and number their particles, we should find that there are more Gods than there are particles of matter in those worlds".. Your doctrines, what has been taught by LDS prophets and seers, is not the doctrines we find in the Bible..

Not understanding the Trinity, you ***ign it to modelism. Believing that the Trinity believes that there is one person who is God that revels Himself i three different modes.. Can't you see the difference in believing that three separate Person are the one true God and there is one Person who in three different ways reveals himself to the world.. It is the exact opposite in it's meaning.. I don't expect you to believe either doctrine, but I wonder, can you understand the difference? IHS jim

[James Banta]

Fine do so.. We don't believe the creeds, ANY OF THEM, are scripture.. That isn't what mormonism believes about their creed. It is included in LDS.org in their list of scriptures. In that list of 13 articles, a person could see that, the mormons deny the deity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit saying that only the Father is God while Jesus is only His Son and that the Holy Ghost is just there.. Since that is your creed that must be your beliefs.. I can agree with the Nicene creed because it is supported by the Bible.. The problem for you in that your creed can't be so supported, not completely.. So show us were the Nicene creed is outside the teaching of the Bible and we will continue to show you how mormonism in all it's unique beliefs is not just outside the teaching of the Bible but flat apposes those teachings.. IHS jim

[TrueBlue?]

Originally Posted by Billyray

How can you go on and on about free will to choose Christ when you admit that man can't choose Christ on their own?

Like a parent calling there child in from outside for dinner. The parent calls out the name of the child, does that mean that the child has no choice but to answer or to come? No, the free will still exists in that child to choose, will I answer the call to come home, or will I ignore it and play with my friends a little longer.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

Like a parent calling there child in from outside for dinner. The parent calls out the name of the child, does that mean that the child has no choice but to answer or to come? No, the free will still exists in that child to choose, will I answer the call to come home, or will I ignore it and play with my friends a little longer.

Very good ****ogy, TrueBlue.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

Like a parent calling there child in from outside for dinner. The parent calls out the name of the child, does that mean that the child has no choice but to answer or to come? No, the free will still exists in that child to choose, will I answer the call to come home, or will I ignore it and play with my friends a little longer.

I am not sure how this relates to the ongoing conversation thus far but it you would like to join that would be great. So here is your question.

Do you believe that a person can come to Christ without first being drawn by the Father?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I am not sure how this relates to the ongoing conversation thus far but it you would like to join that would be great.

It relates perfectly to the conversation I've been trying to have. God draws and we respond..or we don't.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

It relates perfectly to the conversation I've been trying to have. God draws and we respond..or we don't.

He or she didn't address the issue that has been ongoing over the last several pages of whether or not man has the ability to come to Christ prior to being drawn.

Do you believe that a person can come to Christ without first being drawn by the Father?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

God draws and we respond..or we don't.

BTW where does it say that the Father draws ALL to Christ? It certainly doesn't say it in John 6, which is the p***age that we were discussing. Here is the verse

John 6: 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

In this verse those who are drawn are raised. And if you try and run to John 12 it doesn't say that the Father draws ALL to Christ.

[alanmolstad]

john12:32


................

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

john12:32

I ***ume you mean John 12:32.

John 12:32 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Where in this verse does it say that the Father draws ALL people to Christ?

Can you show me what verse you guys are using to support your position that the Father draws ALL people to Christ?

[alanmolstad]

heres the deal.........

when god put christ on the cross......it was for the whole world......



All of us........

[alanmolstad]

so this means that all people......all people that have ever lived or will ever live.........thats what i take the word "all" to mean there.








shame on people that think differently

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

so this means that all people......all people that have ever lived or will ever live.........thats what i take the word "all" to mean there.
John 12:32 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

This is Christ speaking NOT the Father. So why do you and others keep saying that the Father will draw ALL men to Christ?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

This is Christ speaking NOT the Father. So why do you and others keep saying that the Father will draw ALL men to Christ?

So the son draws all men.......but in your thinking the son and the father are going off on their own ?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

This is Christ speaking NOT the Father. ?

Shame on the Son for drawing all men...........

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

This is Christ speaking NOT the Father. So why do you and others keep saying that the Father will draw ALL men to Christ?

Jesus did Nothing but what he was given to do by the Father.........

your ideas are crazy.......