God as Spirit or flesh and bone

[dberrie2000]

JD----God is Spirit. This Spirit is the same substance made up of 3 distinct personalities or persons... the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Sorry, JD, but that dog just ain't gonna hunt. One cannot state that there are different persons as God, and ***ign them two different substances--one a physical body,(God the Son) and the other without a physical body(God the Father) and then state it is the same substance.

Unless you want to establish the fact, that as God, where they all combine--- there is only one--that they are of the same substance. In that case--is it a Spirit and a physical Body--or just a Spirit?

Christ Body was "added" because He took on flesh to save us, but the substance that is the same (****ousious) is God Himself (Spirit)- that is the Father (Spirit), Son (Spirit) and Holy (Spirit) are the same substance, all fully God, co-eternal Spirit.

Christ not only "added" a body--He still has it. That means that Christ has a physical body and a Spirit--and God the Father has a Spirit only.

Does God have a physical body?

[MacG]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Sorry, JD, but that dog just ain't gonna hunt. One cannot state that there are different persons as God, and ***ign them two different substances--one a physical body,(God the Son) and the other without a physical body(God the Father) and then state it is the same substance.

Unless you want to establish the fact, that as God, where they all combine--- there is only one--that they are of the same substance. In that case--is it a Spirit and a physical Body--or just a Spirit?




Christ not only "added" a body--He still has it. That means that Christ has a physical body and a Spirit--and God the Father has a Spirit only.

Does God have a physical body?

If God is Spirit why do you state the Father HAS a spirit?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Sorry, JD, but that dog just ain't gonna hunt. One cannot state that there are different persons as God, and ***ign them two different substances--one a physical body,(God the Son) and the other without a physical body(God the Father) and then state it is the same substance.

Unless you want to establish the fact, that as God, where they all combine--- there is only one--that they are of the same substance. In that case--is it a Spirit and a physical Body--or just a Spirit?




Christ not only "added" a body--He still has it. That means that Christ has a physical body and a Spirit--and God the Father has a Spirit only.

Does God have a physical body?

Originally Posted by MacG

If God is Spirit why do you state the Father HAS a spirit?

Haggling with the term "has" is not going to solve the Trinitarian problem of ***igning different substances to a God they describe as a "****ousious" God.

Either God has, is, possesses---you choose the word you like---a body and a Spirit or He does not.

Taking Christ and stating that He has a Body of flesh and bones--and God the Father does not cannot amount to a ****ousious God.

If it does--can you explain how?

[MacG]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Haggling with the term "has" is not going to solve the Trinitarian problem of ***igning different substances to a God they describe as a "****ousious" God.

Either God has, is, possesses---you choose the word you like---a body and a Spirit or He does not.

Taking Christ and stating that He has a Body of flesh and bones--and God the Father does not cannot amount to a ****ousious God.

If it does--can you explain how?

Haggling? It is a discinction with a diference. You theology says that the Father has a body and a spirit. Ours says the Father is Spirit.

Paul exorcised a spirit that was following for calimg Jesus was A way. Was he haggling?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Haggling with the term "has" is not going to solve the Trinitarian problem of ***igning different substances to a God they describe as a "****ousious" God.

Either God has, is, possesses---you choose the word you like---a body and a Spirit or He does not.

Taking Christ and stating that He has a Body of flesh and bones--and God the Father does not cannot amount to a ****ousious God.

If it does--can you explain how?

Originally Posted by MacG

You theology says that the Father has a body and a spirit. Ours says the Father is Spirit.

And this is the problem with the Trinitarian theology--if God the Father does not have a body--and Jesus Christ has a body--could you explain the "****ousious" God?

You do realize that "****ousious" means same substance--right?

How can God be the same substance and be made up of different substances such as the Father and Son are in the Trinitarian theology?

[MacG]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

And this is the problem with the Trinitarian theology--if God the Father does not have a body--and Jesus Christ has a body--could you explain the "****ousious" God?

You do realize that "****ousious" means same substance--right?

How can God be the same substance and be made up of different substances such as the Father and Son are in the Trinitarian theology?

The paradigm of the TCJCLDS theology is what is constraining any possibility of understanding this. While not an exact picture, the three simultaneous forms of one substance ought to give you a glimmer of how this can be. The substance of God, and I am going out on a limb here, is probably more complex than H2O.

I cannot break it down any more than is explained in the New Testament and the BoM. There is one God, the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. The New Testament tells us this one God has conversations within itself. The Father sends the Son and the Holy Spirit descends as a dove from the heavens while the Father speaks of His Son. It tells us that before the Son was found in the form of a man that He was equal with God (in more than one place by different writers). Wheras in the Old Testament God tells us in no uncertain terms that He has no equal. All three are represented as God and all three exhibit qualities that we would recognize as personhood, namley emotion but not to rule out interactive intelligence yet there is one God. I am comfortable at this point to say that the God that can resurrect billions of bodies dead for thousands of years (that's a lot of atoms) is more complex than the universe and is more complex than I can comprehend so I am content to apprehend the concept without being able to see completely through the smoked gl***.

If the Father God is the only one with whom we have to deal why is your Church dedicated to another glorified human God?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by MacG

The paradigm of the TCJCLDS theology is what is constraining any possibility of understanding this. While not an exact picture, the three simultaneous forms of one substance ought to give you a glimmer of how this can be.

But that is just it--the trinitarians have it different substances--God the Father as a Spirit--God the Son with a physical Body of flesh and bone. They do not consider those the same substance. If they do--please give a cite and explanation of that.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

But that is just it--the trinitarians have it different substances--God the Father as a Spirit--God the Son with a physical Body of flesh and bone. They do not consider those the same substance. If they do--please give a cite and explanation of that.

That is correct...

The Father is pure spirit.
The son is pure spirit, and also human too.

Jesus has two natures......
The Son is both fully God, and fully human.

Equal to the father in his nature as God
Equal to me in his nature as a brother human.

Of the same "substance" (whatever that term means?) as the father, in that he is God.
The same "substance" as me, in that he is fully a normal guy.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post--But that is just it--the trinitarians have it different substances--God the Father as a Spirit--God the Son with a physical Body of flesh and bone. They do not consider those the same substance. If they do--please give a cite and explanation of that.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

That is correct...

Well, if that is correct, that leaves the Trinitarians in the unenviable position of trying to explain how they believe in the "****ousious"(same substance) God.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Well, if that is correct, that leaves the Trinitarians in the unenviable position of trying to explain how they believe in the "****ousious"(same substance) God.

Jesus is both God and man....

Thus Jesus is of the same "substance" of the father concerning his God nature.....being in nature equal with the father. (pure spirit)

And yet in his human nature he is of the same "substance" as me, being fully 100% human. (Flesh)

any questions of this point so far?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post--But that is just it--the trinitarians have it different substances--God the Father as a Spirit--God the Son with a physical Body of flesh and bone. They do not consider those the same substance. If they do--please give a cite and explanation of that.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post--That is correct...

dberrie---Well, if that is correct, that leaves the Trinitarians in the unenviable position of trying to explain how they believe in the "****ousious"(same substance) God.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Jesus is both God and man....

Thus Jesus is of the same "substance" of the father concerning his God nature.....

And what has the nature of God or the fact that Jesus was both God and man have to do with the fact that the Trinitarians believe the Father to have a spirit only--and Jesus Christ to possess a body of flesh and bones?

That is two different substances--as you have already agreed above.

If that is true--how do you believe in a "****ousious" (same substance) God?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

-how do you believe in a "****ousious" (same substance) God?

They are both equally God.

[dberrie2000]

dberrie----And what has the nature of God or the fact that Jesus was both God and man have to do with the fact that the Trinitarians believe the Father to have a spirit only--and Jesus Christ to possess a body of flesh and bones?

That is two different substances--as you have already agreed above.

If that is true--how do you believe in a "****ousious" (same substance) God?

Originally Posted by Billyray

They are both equally God.

Won't help your cause. You are going to have to explain how it is that the Trinitarians believe that God the Father is just a Spirit--and Jesus Christ has a body of flesh and bone--and they be the "****ousious"(same substance) God.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

If that is true--how do you believe in a "****ousious" (same substance) God?[/B]



.

I think it is answered like thus...

Jesus is the same nature as the father.
Everything you can say about the nature of the father, you can same in an equal manner about the Son.

So in this way we can know and have faith in the idea that Jesus and the Father share the same "substance" in that both are God , the one true God Almighty.

So they, (The father and the Son) are of the same nature, the same substance, in that they are God....and there is only one God.

But in addition to being Fully 100% God Almighty, Jesus is also fully human.

So this is the core of the Christian Faith, ....That we truly have "God with us" in the person of Jesus Christ.

Jesus is God almighty, wrapped in 100% human flesh with all it's weakness and deterioration that we all suffer with.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Won't help your cause.

That is the exact thing that was meant by this term. Don't you think that the guys who used this term didn't realize that Jesus had a resurrected body?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---They are both equally God.

dberrie---Won't help your cause. You are going to have to explain how it is that the Trinitarians believe that God the Father is just a Spirit--and Jesus Christ has a body of flesh and bone--and they be the "****ousious"(same substance) God.

Originally Posted by Billyray

That is the exact thing that was meant by this term. Don't you think that the guys who used this term didn't realize that Jesus had a resurrected body?

Huh? Are you saying that the Early Church Fathers didn't know Jesus Christ was resurrected and possessed a body of flesh and bone?

If they did not have that basic information--how can we rely on the Nicene creed? Trinitarianism?

****ousious was and is defined as "same substance":



http://home.catholicweb.com/covingto...Item?ID=317816


This Greek word <<****ousious>> is translated into Latin as <<consubstantialem>> and as we see in the revised English language Missal as “consubstantial.” As the Church prays together that Jesus is “consubstantial with the Father” we are expressing as clearly as our language will allow our belief that Jesus is God and in doing so confirming our belief in the Most Holy Trinity. While the Son (Jesus) is not the Father, He shares the same substance as the Father — here we have the beginning of our Trinitarian theology.


http://voices.yahoo.com/definitions-...s-8303811.html



**** ousious vs. ****i ousious - ****iousios ("of like/similar substance") was the idea that the Father and Son were related in substance but not the same. This allowed for the incarnation while remaining true to the unchanging nature of God. ****ousious , by contrast, held to the idea that the Father and the Son were of the same substance. This was the hallmark of the Nicene Creed.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

And what has the nature of God or the fact that Jesus was both God and man have to do with the fact that the Trinitarians believe the Father to have a spirit only--and Jesus Christ to possess a body of flesh and bones?

?

This was a hard worded question for me to understand what you are asking about...

But let me take a shot at what I think you are pointing to...

Jesus is God.
Jesus is pure spirit, just as the Father is pure spirit...

This is their shared nature as the one true God.


So the God-nature of Christ is pure Love,pure Spirit.


and this pure Love, pure Spirit is wrapped in a covering of flesh in the womb of Mary.
Notice Jesus never stops being pure Love, pure Spirit,
but His Pure love, pure spirit nature is covered in the flesh of man so that Jesus could know death.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---And what has the nature of God or the fact that Jesus was both God and man have to do with the fact that the Trinitarians believe the Father to have a spirit only--and Jesus Christ to possess a body of flesh and bones?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

This was a hard worded question for me to understand what you are asking about...

But let me take a shot at what I think you are pointing to...

Jesus is God.
Jesus is pure spirit, just as the Father is pure spirit...

This is their shared nature as the one true God.

Possessing a "spirit" does not separate God the Father from Jesus Christ nor any of mankind--as they all possessed spirits.


But, in the Trinitarian theology--this does:


Luke24:39--"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

The Trinitarian theology has God the Father and Jesus Christ as the "****ousious" God--same substance. How is a Spirit and flesh and bone the same substance?

So the God-nature of Christ is pure Love,pure Spirit.


and this pure Love, pure Spirit is wrapped in a covering of flesh in the womb of Mary.
Notice Jesus never stops being pure Love, pure Spirit,
but His Pure love, pure spirit nature is covered in the flesh of man so that Jesus could know death.

And Jesus Christ is still a man, with a resurrected body of flesh and bone. That's the problem. Not that He was--but still is.

1 Timothy2:5--"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;"

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Possessing a "spirit" does not separate God the Father from Jesus Christ nor any of mankind--as they all possessed spirits.


But, in the Trinitarian theology--this does:


Luke24:39--"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

"

Yes, this is why we talk about the "incarnation"
God became man.

God , (who is pure spirit)
became man (who is flesh)

God never stopped being Spirit.
So Jesus was then and still is fully 100% Spirit, and God.

But we do say that God became flesh...He became wrapped in human flesh.

Sorta like a loaf of bread is always a loaf of bread, even if you wrap it in plastic.
The loaf of bread is not changed , its still just a loaf of bread.
But you did wrap it in plastic.

God who is pure spirit, is always pure spirit.
God cant change or take-away from his inner nature.
But God can and did wrap himself in human flesh.


This is the meaning to the words "God with us"

The Father does not have a body of flesh.
Before the Word entered the womb of Mary he had no body of flesh.

But in that single moment inside the womb of Mary we understand that the Spirit of God was wrapped in 100% human flesh.

Now after the resurrection we do see in the upper room where Jesus himself pops in for a visit.
The men thought that Being dead that Jesus had to be a ghost.
(This same thing was later spoken of of Peter remember?)
and this is why that Jesus had to tell his men to handle him and see for themselves that it was really Him, really the SAME BODY that hung on the cross, the same body that he received in the womb of Mary, except for a changed nature from mortal to everlasting.

And we will have a new body one day just like the body that Jesus has!


So nothing Jesus said is to be understood as Jesus not saying he was God...LOL

But he does ask his men (and us) to believe that it is truly the same body that he was born with that he has now in heaven.

He tells us this so that we can have faith in just as the human body was raised from the dead, so to can our own dead human bodies be in the same way raised from the dead.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----Possessing a "spirit" does not separate God the Father from Jesus Christ nor any of mankind--as they all possessed spirits.


But, in the Trinitarian theology--this does:


Luke24:39--"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Yes, this is why we talk about the "incarnation"
God became man.

God , (who is pure spirit)
became man (who is flesh)

So--is God a Spirit--or flesh and bone?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

And Jesus Christ is still a man, with a resurrected body of flesh and bone. That's the problem. Not that He was--but still is.

"

Yes, this is the message of the Christian church.
We are not saying that jesus was just man, but that jesus is fully Human, AND fully God.

Fully human means that we can look to the body of Christ to see what God will do for our own human bodies of flesh one day.
For Jesus is fully human......fully God.
The 2 totally different natures in union.


The Word, was made flesh.

The Word in flesh will always be from now on "in" flesh.

All that we will ever know about God, all that we will ever come to know about the Father, is already given to us in the Son.