God as Spirit or flesh and bone

[jdjhere]

“You are the God who sees me” (Genesis 16:13)

How does God see Hagar if He is a man and is not omnipresent?

[jdjhere]

DBerrie said: "Is not Jesus God also?
Yes
DBerrie said: "How can God have a body of flesh and bones.."
because the Word (Jesus, Logos, monogenes Son of God) BECAME flesh...
DBerrie said: "and be a Spirit only without a body of flesh and bones?"
In the Beginning was the Word (Jesus, Logos) and the Word (Jesus, Logos) was with God and the Word (Jesus, Logos) WAS God (God is SPIRIT)... and the Word (Jesus, Logos, God the Son, SPIRIT) BECAME (took on, wrapped Himself in) flesh" (because He WAS Spirit in the beginning, God the Son, and is STILL a Spirit that "took on flesh".

Is this really that hard to understand, DBerrie2000?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by jdjhere

DBerrie said: "Is not Jesus God also?
Yes
DBerrie said: "How can God have a body of flesh and bones.."
because the Word (Jesus, Logos, monogenes Son of God) BECAME flesh...
DBerrie said: "and be a Spirit only without a body of flesh and bones?"
In the Beginning was the Word (Jesus, Logos) and the Word (Jesus, Logos) was with God and the Word (Jesus, Logos) WAS God... and the Word (Jesus, Logos) BECAME (took on, wrapped Himself in) flesh" because He WAS Spirit in the beginning, God the Son.

Is this really that hard to understand, DBerrie2000?

How does this address the fact that the Trinitarians have God with both a body of flesh and bone--and only a Spirit? Referring to the fact that God the Son was Spirit before He obtained a resurrected body of flesh and bone--will not solve the problem--for the faith alone still has the Father as Spirit only.

The Trinitarians believe in the "****ousios"(same substance) God.

How can God have different substances, I.E.--God the Son having a resurrected body of flesh and bone--and God the Father a Spirit only?

[jdjhere]

SnowPatrol said: "Well, I could get technical and ask how God, even being omnipresent, can see Hagar if God does not have eye*****, cornea, etc.

I could get technical too and say "What does God do as a man to see Hagar...take his eye***** out and throw them to earth?"

Because God is omniscient and omnipresent because He is Spirit. It is just who God is.

[jdjhere]

DBerrie said: "How can God have different substances, I.E.--God the Son having a resurrected body of flesh and bone--and God the Father a Spirit only?"

but you leave out that God the Son is SPIRIT as well, simultaneously IN His Resurrected Glorified Spiritual Physical Body and OUT of it as well because He is God the Son, Omnipresent and Omniscient. Acts 1:11 "Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven..." BODILY housing God the Son who is Spirit.

[dberrie2000]

dberrie---How does this address the fact that the Trinitarians have God with both a body of flesh and bone--and only a Spirit? Referring to the fact that God the Son was Spirit before He obtained a resurrected body of flesh and bone--will not solve the problem--for the faith alone still has the Father as Spirit only.

The Trinitarians believe in the "****ousios"(same substance) God.

How can God have different substances, I.E.--God the Son having a resurrected body of flesh and bone--and God the Father a Spirit only?

Originally Posted by jdjhere

DBerrie said: "How can God have different substances, I.E.--God the Son having a resurrected body of flesh and bone--and God the Father a Spirit only?"

but you leave out that God the Son is SPIRIT as well, simultaneously IN His Resurrected Glorified Spiritual Physical Body and OUT of it as well because He is God the Son, Omnipresent and Omniscient. Acts 1:11 "Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. BODILY

Well--if God the Son possesses a body through the eternities, and God the Father does not--you still have God with different substances.

Explaining that God the Son has a Spirit also does not solve it--as He also has a body of flesh and bones--which the Trinitarian faith alone deny the Father has.

That involves two different substances--One, Flesh and Bone--the other--Spirit only. Adding a Spirit to Jesus does not solve the problem.

[jdjhere]

dberrie asked: "How does this address the fact that the Trinitarians have God with both a body of flesh and bone--and only a Spirit?"
This is incorrect. God the Son "clothed Himself, wrapped Himself, took on" flesh, NOT the Father or Holy Spirit. This was ONLY the Son. God is SPIRIT- Father, Son, Holy Spirit.. 3 distinct personalities that are Spirit and are One, communicate with each other and function as the One True and Living God. Mix 3 soups together- they are now one soup. Spirits without bodies could certainly exist together and be one En***y, even if we can not understand it. H2O exists as fluid, ice and steam.

When Jesus said (John 4:24) " God is Spirit " He was talking about God in context of the Old Testament and how believers knew Him, as an omnipotent omniscient omnipresent Being because He was Spirit. Then Jesus (God the Son) came in the flesh and said "Whoever has seen Me has seen the Father. You have now seen Him and KNOW HIM." (John 14:7) Why? Because (Col 2:9) "For in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily".

[dberrie2000]

dberrie---Well--if God the Son possesses a body through the eternities, and God the Father does not--you still have God with different substances.

Explaining that God the Son has a Spirit also does not solve it--as He also has a body of flesh and bones--which the Trinitarian faith alone deny the Father has.

That involves two different substances--One, Flesh and Bone--the other--Spirit only. Adding a Spirit to Jesus does not solve the problem.

JD---- This is incorrect. God the Son "clothed Himself, wrapped Himself, took on" flesh, NOT the Father or Holy Spirit. This was ONLY the Son. God is SPIRIT- Father, Son, Holy Spirit..

But we are now back where we began. If only Jesus took on the flesh--and still possesses it--and not the Father--then They have two different substances.

How do you collate that to the "****ousious"(same substance) God?

3 distinct personalities that are Spirit and are One,

And one with a Spirit and one with flesh and bone. JD--you are differentiating personalities.

The question is--does God possess a physical body. You believe they are the same God--so--if one God possesses a physical body--then the other does also. You can only differentiate that at the person level--I am asking the question at the level of the one God, as the faith alone believe.

communicate with each other and function as the One True and Living God.

The "only true God" or the only "one God" the Biblical text ever identifies is God the Father--even when Jesus Christ is added in the same sentence:

St John17:3--"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."


1 Cor8:6--"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."

Where do you see any reference to anyone but God the Father in the NT as the "one God" or the "only true God"?

Mix 3 soups together- they are now one soup. Spirits without bodies could certainly exist together and be one En***y, even if we can not understand it. H2O exists as fluid, ice and steam.

But not at the same time. How could God the Father appear to Jesus Christ in the Mount of Transfiguration, and announce His Only Begotten Son?

[jdjhere]

DBerrie2000 asked: "How do you collate that to the "****ousious"(same substance) God?"

God is Spirit. This Spirit is the same substance (****ousious) made up of 3 distinct personalities or persons... the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Christ Body was "added" because He took on flesh to save us, but the substance that is the same (****ousious) is God Himself (Spirit)- that is the Father (Spirit), Son (Spirit) and Holy (Spirit) are the same substance, all fully God, co-eternal Spirit. The Spirit of God that dwells in God the Son is the same substance as God the Father (Spirit) and God the Holy (Spirit). But the Son "took on" or "became" flesh but God the Son (Spirit) that is housed in a Spiritual Body is still the same substance as God the Father (Spirit) and the Holy (Spirit)- that being Eternal Spirit that existed as God with no beginning and no end.
One of the names of God in the Old Testament is Jehovah-Elohim. It is translated in our King James Bible as "The LORD God" and literally means "Jehovah is Elohim," or "The LORD is God."
Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD [Jehovah] your God [Elohim] is one LORD [Jehovah]."

[jdjhere]

DBerrie2000 said: "even when Jesus Christ is added in the same sentence:"

St John17:3--"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

The question is WHY is Jesus Christ even added to the same sentence? Because eternal life is dependent on what? By knowing the only true God and... who else? Why parallel the two?
1 John 5:20 "And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

[dberrie2000]

JD---St John17:3--"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

The question is WHY is Jesus Christ even added to the same sentence? Because eternal life is dependent on what? By knowing the only true God and... who else?

Who else? The only other One the scripture identifies--Jesus Christ.

Your attempt to merge the two runs into immediate problems:


St John20:17--"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

Who was Jesus' God? Who does the scriptures identify as the One who gave Jesus Christ His inheritance of all things:

Hebrews1:2--"Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;"

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

St John20:17--"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

Who was Jesus' God? Who does the scriptures identify as the One who gave Jesus Christ His inheritance of all things:

Why do you see this as an issue given the fact that you know that Jesus voluntary lowered himself to be like one of us?

[dberrie2000]

dberrie---Who else? The only other One the scripture identifies--Jesus Christ.

Your attempt to merge the two runs into immediate problems:


St John20:17--"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

Who was Jesus' God? Who does the scriptures identify as the One who gave Jesus Christ His inheritance of all things:

Hebrews1:2--"Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;"

Originally Posted by Billyray

Why do you see this as an issue given the fact that you know that Jesus voluntary lowered himself to be like one of us?

Because that explanation does not even touch upon the problem of Jesus having a God over Himself--nor inheriting all things.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Because that explanation does not even touch upon the problem of Jesus having a God over Himself--nor inheriting all things.

When Jesus voluntarily lowered himself to become like one of us wouldn't that include Jesus following God the Father like we are asked to do?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

When Jesus voluntarily lowered himself to become like one of us wouldn't that include Jesus following God the Father like we are asked to do?

This is the correct answer...

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hebrews1:2--"Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;"

when do you think Jesus went from owing nothing to having all things?

[jdjhere]

DBerrie2000 said: "How could God the Father appear to Jesus Christ in the Mount of Transfiguration, and announce His Only Begotten Son?"

Define "appear" because it was NOT bodily.

Jesus was transformed before His disciples. It would have been of great interest to have heard the words our Lord was speaking to the Father as His appearance began to be changed. Jesus is then called Son by a voice in the sky from God the Father, as in the baptism of Jesus.

Matthew 17:5-8 While he was yet speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold, a voice out of the cloud, saying, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him." And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. And Jesus came and touched them and said, "Arise, and be not afraid." And lifting up their eyes, they saw no one, save Jesus only.
Luke 9:34-36 While he thus spoke, there came a cloud and overshadowed them, and they were afraid as they entered into the cloud. And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, “THIS IS MY BELOVED SON. HEAR HIM!”And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept silent, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.
Mark9:7-8 And there came a cloud overshadowing them: and there came a voice out of the cloud, "This is my beloved Son: hear ye him."And suddenly looking round about, they saw no one any more save Jesus only with themselves.
2 Peter 1:16-18 "For we did not follow cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honor and glory, when there was borne such a voice to him by the Majestic Glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased: and this voice we [ourselves] heard borne out of heaven, when we were with him in the holy mount.

Show me Biblical Scripture that proves the Father "appeared" bodily to Jesus Christ in the Mount of Transfiguration. There was a cloud and a Voice and.... Jesus alone. I wonder why? Maybe because the God the Father is Spirit and God the Son was housed in a body?

[dberrie2000]

dberrie---How could God the Father appear to Jesus Christ in the Mount of Transfiguration, and announce His Only Begotten Son?

JD----Define "appear" because it was NOT bodily.

Jesus was transformed before His disciples. It would have been of great interest to have heard the words our Lord was speaking to the Father as His appearance began to be changed. Jesus is then called Son by a voice in the sky from God the Father, as in the baptism of Jesus.

Matthew 17:5-8 While he was yet speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold, a voice out of the cloud, saying, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him." And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. And Jesus came and touched them and said, "Arise, and be not afraid." And lifting up their eyes, they saw no one, save Jesus only.
Luke 9:34-36 While he thus spoke, there came a cloud and overshadowed them, and they were afraid as they entered into the cloud. And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, “THIS IS MY BELOVED SON. HEAR HIM!”And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept silent, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.
Mark9:7-8 And there came a cloud overshadowing them: and there came a voice out of the cloud, "This is my beloved Son: hear ye him."And suddenly looking round about, they saw no one any more save Jesus only with themselves.
2 Peter 1:16-18 "For we did not follow cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honor and glory, when there was borne such a voice to him by the Majestic Glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased: and this voice we [ourselves] heard borne out of heaven, when we were with him in the holy mount.

Show me Biblical Scripture that proves the Father "appeared" bodily to Jesus Christ in the Mount of Transfiguration. There was a cloud and a Voice and.... Jesus alone. I wonder why? Maybe because the God the Father is Spirit and God the Son was housed in a body?

Whoa, hossy. You likened the Trinity to water in steam, ice, and liquid. I stated ok, but not at the same time.

I placed the Father and the Son together at the same time on the mount of transfiguration to show that ****ogy would not work for me--it had nothing to do with God the Father appearing with a body or without a body.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I placed the Father and the Son together at the same time on the mount of transfiguration to show that ****ogy would not work for me--it had nothing to do with God the Father appearing with a body or without a body.

Did we ever expect that you would ever hold Christian doctrine?

[jdjhere]

Heh heh... OK DBerrie, I misunderstood you. Sorry bout that, Chief. (To post #35) And I do not know WHY you think we are in a "pickle." Seems pretty straight forward and obvious to me.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000
I placed the Father and the Son together at the same time on the mount of transfiguration to show that ****ogy would not work for me--it had nothing to do with God the Father appearing with a body or without a body.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Did we ever expect that you would ever hold Christian doctrine?

Please explain. But first--are you referring to "Christianity" as the faith alone claim it--or as the Biblical text has it in the NT church?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Please explain.

What is there to explain? You hold heretical doctrine and I don't think any Christian here thinks you will ever see the truth UNLESS God opens up your eyes to the truth.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

What is there to explain? You hold heretical doctrine and I don't think any Christian here thinks you will ever see the truth UNLESS God opens up your eyes to the truth.

But that is just a general statement that anyone can make against another. Please post your scripture and make a specific argument.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Please post your scripture and make a specific argument.

Just about everything you believe is heretical. So where do you want to start?

[jdjhere]

"God the Father does not have a body of flesh and bones, God the Son has a resurrected body."

What exactly is incorrect about this?

If A=B and B=C then A=C

Jesus is God the Son
Jesus has a resurrected body.
God the Son has a resurrected body.

How exactly is that incorrect?

It is NOT incorrect, except one minor thing- your conclusion is INCOMPLETE-

God the Son has a GLORIFIED resurrected SPIRITUAL PHYSICAL BODY that houses the the SPIRIT of God the Son and this Spirit is ****ousios with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ is FULLY man and FULLY God.
"I am the Alpha and the Omega" Isaiah 44:6; Rev 1:8 " I am the Alpha and the Omega" Rev 1:17; 2:8 Rev 22:13-20 WHO is the Alpha and the Omega from these verses? John 1:1-3, 14 Compare Zech 12:10 to John 19:37 Who is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords? There can only be one 1 Timothy 6:15 and Rev 19:16 and why does it say GOD purchased the Church with His OWN BLOOD? Acts 20:28? Read John 1:18