The Atonement of Jesus Christ---all men--or just a few?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Let's take a look at your verses one by one starting with this one since it is one of your favorite verses. Do you believe that "all" in this verse and in the surrounding text is referring to all men or all believers?

I believe "all men" in Romans5:18 is a reference to all men--as is all these verses that point to that:


Hebrews 2:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


1 Timothy 4:10---King James Version (KJV)


10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.



2 Peter 3:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.



1 Timothy 2:4----King James Version (KJV)


4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


***us 2:11---King James Version (KJV)

[COLOR="#FF0000"][COLOR="#000000"]
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,


Romans 5:18----King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


2 Corinthians 5:15---King James Version (KJV)


15 And that he died for all,that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.




Could anyone explain to us what evidence that "all men" meant just a few men--as we see some here do?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I believe "all men" in Romans5:18 is a reference to all men--as is all these verses that point to that:

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Let's take a look at your verses one by one starting with this one since it is one of your favorite verses. Do you believe that "all" in this verse and in the surrounding text is referring to all men or all believers?

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I believe "all men" in Romans5:18 is a reference to all men--as is all the verses that point to that:

Originally Posted by Billyray

Great. Now lets start at Romans 5:1 and note that Paul starts the verse off with "therefore" which means that he is summing up what he had just talked about in the prior chapter which was justification by faith.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[a] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

In verse 1 does justification apply to every single person OR to those who come to Christ by faith?

We were already having this discussion in another thread--and you failed to follow through in that thread--perhaps you will do so in this one. Here is where we left off.

In Romans 5:1 does justification apply to every single person OR to those who come to Christ by faith?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

We were already having this discussion in another thread--and you failed to follow through in that thread--perhaps you will do so in this one. Here is where we left off.

In Romans 5:1 does justification apply to every single person OR to those who come to Christ by faith?

Whatever you might believe Romans5:1 is referring to--the scriptures state that all men received the free gift--and all men were justified of life:


Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


What do you disagree with in this scripture? That it really means just a few men instead of all men?



I believe "all men" in Romans5:18 is a reference to all men--as is all these verses that point to that:


Hebrews 2:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


1 Timothy 4:10---King James Version (KJV)


10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.



2 Peter 3:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.



1 Timothy 2:4----King James Version (KJV)


4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

***us 2:11---King James Version (KJV
)


11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,


Romans 5:18----King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


2 Corinthians 5:15---King James Version (KJV)


15 And that he died for all,that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Whatever you might believe Romans5:1 is referring to--the scriptures state that all men received the free gift--and all men were justified of life:

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[a] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

In verse 1 does justification apply to every single person OR to those who come to Christ by faith?

Are you going to engage in conversation? Can you answer my question or would you like to p***?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

This verse says absolutely nothing about limited atonement.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

This verse says absolutely nothing about limited atonement.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

[B]2 Corinthians 5:15 And that he died for all,that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

If you look at verse 15 "those" "themselves" and "who died for them" are referring to believers.

[Billyray]

It looks like DB's suspension at CARM has been lifted so he is now spamming that board.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

It looks like DB's suspension at CARM has been lifted so he is now spamming that board.

Don't worry, Billyray--my tenure on the CARM board don't usually last but a few hours before suspension--even though I post nothing different than than I do here. They frown on any LDS prospering there.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Originally Posted by Billyray

This verse says absolutely nothing about limited atonement.

I know. Because it states---"all should come to repentance." That defies a limited Atonement.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I know. Because it states---"all should come to repentance." That defies a limited Atonement.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

So--does that say just some--or that all should come to repentance? Is God willing that any should perish? Is the answer is no--then why would you believe God only died for a few?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

So--does that say just some--or that all should come to repentance? Is God willing that any should perish? Is the answer is no--then why would you believe God only died for a few?

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[Billyray]

John 10
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

[Billyray]

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

[Billyray]

Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

[Billyray]

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

This verse says absolutely nothing about limited atonement.

It says your version of it is wrong, indirectly. Because if Jesus wants ALL of us to repent and come to Him, and if He doesn't want ANY of us to perish, then there's no way He would refuse to pay for the sins of ANY of us. That wouldn't make any sense at all.

And the phrase "God is love" would have to be changed to "God is hate when His feelings about most of the human race is concerned."

[MacG]

I brought some cake into the office for anyone who would like it. Even though I would have been pleased for all to partake only a few did.

Did I provide for all or only those who accepted the gift?

[MacG]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

It says your version of it is wrong, indirectly. Because if Jesus wants ALL of us to repent and come to Him, and if He doesn't want ANY of us to perish, then there's no way He would refuse to pay for the sins of ANY of us. That wouldn't make any sense at all.

And the phrase "God is love" would have to be changed to "God is hate when His feelings about most of the human race is concerned."

But if you choose not not follow:
Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it!

[MacG]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I believe "all men" in Romans5:18 is a reference to all men--as is all these verses that point to that:


Hebrews 2:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


1 Timothy 4:10---King James Version (KJV)


10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.



2 Peter 3:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.



1 Timothy 2:4----King James Version (KJV)


4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


***us 2:11---King James Version (KJV)

[COLOR="#FF0000"][COLOR="#000000"]
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,


Romans 5:18----King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


2 Corinthians 5:15---King James Version (KJV)


15 And that he died for all,that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.




Could anyone explain to us what evidence that "all men" meant just a few men--as we see some here do?

Are you saying that every person before they die, repents and gets baptized before they die?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by MacG

I brought some cake into the office for anyone who would like it. Even though I would have been pleased for all to partake only a few did.

Did I provide for all or only those who accepted the gift?

You provided the opportunity for all. If Christ only died for the few--then the rest did not even have an opportunity. Christ provided an opportunity for all men to inherit eternal life--by removing the condemnation brought upon all men due to the Fall--and justified all men of life. It was a free gift to all mankind--no faith nor acceptance required--Christ and His perfection alone:


Romans 5:18--King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by MacG

But if you choose not not follow:
Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it!

Agreed. But the reason they can be judged according to their works--is they had an opportunity to choose and be judged according to their own works. If God had not Atoned for them--they would not ever had had the chance to make choices--it would not make any difference what they did--they would be condemned, period. They would have never had a chance.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by MacG

Are you saying that every person before they die, repents and gets baptized before they die?

No. What was posted that gave rise to that idea?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

It says your version of it is wrong, indirectly.

The verses doesn't say anything about limited atonement.