Should the members of the cult of Calvinism repent before calling Mormons a cult?

[Pa Pa]

I have never meet an anti-Mormon who was not a member of the cult of Calvinism, and I have met and debated many for my years...about 20 years now.

Many have accused Mormons of elitism because they say only some can be saved. When the core of Calvinism is that they alone are chosen and everyone else is ****ed to hell. Where is your integrity?

Should you not repent of Hersey before pointing the finger at others for the same.

I am a minister in my Church, I am obligated to call you to repentance. Also not allow you to quote scripture out of context to justify this position and try to call others into your cult.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

I have never meet an anti-Mormon who was not a member of the cult of Calvinism, and I have met and debated many for my years...about 20 years now.

Many have accused Mormons of elitism because they say only some can be saved. When the core of Calvinism is that they alone are chosen and everyone else is ****ed to hell. Where is your integrity?

Should you not repent of Hersey before pointing the finger at others for the same.

I am a minister in my Church, I am obligated to call you to repentance. Also not allow you to quote scripture out of context to justify this position and try to call others into your cult.

I need repentin even if I aint a member of what ever. So I now repent. Woo, glad that's over with.
If a person believes as Calvin or Bobby Jones, it make not difference as to their Salvation if they are a New Testament born againder in the blood of Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible.
However believe in the myth of Joseph Smith jr. imaginary mind is something all together a horse of a different color.

[MacG]

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

I have never meet an anti-Mormon who was not a member of the cult of Calvinism, and I have met and debated many for my years...about 20 years now.

Let me be the first then, American Baptist here.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by MacG

Let me be the first then, American Baptist here.

American Baptists can be Calvinistic. Do you believe in the Limited Atonement?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Do you believe in the Limited Atonement?

Do you believe that Jesus PAID for every sin for every person?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post--Do you believe in the Limited Atonement?

Originally Posted by Billyray

Do you believe that Jesus PAID for every sin for every person?

I do--and so does the Biblical record:


1 John 2:2---King James Version (KJV)

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I do--and so does the Biblical record:

If Jesus PAID for every sin for every person then what would be the basis for sending anyone to Hell?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---Do you believe that Jesus PAID for every sin for every person?

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----I do--and so does the Biblical record:

1 John 2:2---King James Version (KJV)

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Originally Posted by Billyray

If Jesus PAID for every sin for every person then what would be the basis for sending anyone to Hell?

They don't obey the conditions set by the Redeemer:


2 Thessalonians 1:8-9---King James Version (KJV)

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Billyray--the Redeemer always has the right to set the conditions.

The faith alone deny any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ is necessary in order to receive of His grace unto life eternal--but the Bible has obedience to Jesus Christ as the condition upon which God extends His grace unto life:


Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.


That's the gospel one will find in the Bible and the LDS church--but absent in the faith alone theology.

[MacG]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

American Baptists can be Calvinistic.

You are right they can be:

"Calvinism tended to characterize Baptist theology until the late 18th century, when enthusiasm developed for evangelism and overseas missionary work. By and large modern Baptists are motivated by an Arminian theology that stresses free will, and have emphasized evangelism and discipleship."

Do you believe in the Limited Atonement?

Before I step in that pile, please define it for as you understand it.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by MacG

Before I step in that pile, please define it for as you understand it.

1 John 2:2---King James Version (KJV)

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Do you believe in the limited Atonement?

[MacG]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

1 John 2:2---King James Version (KJV)

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Do you believe in the limited Atonement?

I think the idea of limited atonement takes your proof text into account but just so I know, not being psychic and all, will you spell out what limited atonement is as you understand it. It don't need to be verbose, make it plain please.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---1 John 2:2---King James Version (KJV)

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Do you believe in the limited Atonement?

Originally Posted by MacG

I think the idea of limited atonement takes your proof text into account but just so I know, not being psychic and all, will you spell out what limited atonement is as you understand it. It don't need to be verbose, make it plain please.

Anything less than all sins for all men:


Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


Hebrews 2:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


1 Timothy 2:6---King James Version (KJV)

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


2 Corinthians 5:14-15---King James Version (KJV)

14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

[MacG]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Anything less than all sins for all men:


Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


Hebrews 2:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


1 Timothy 2:6---King James Version (KJV)

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


2 Corinthians 5:14-15---King James Version (KJV)

14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Not what I was expecting. So thanks for spelling out how you don't view limited atonement. So now I need a little more input.

Now what benefit is this unlimited atonement for those goats who will be gnashing their teeth in the outer darkness after being invited to the wedding, refusing to go but then attempt to go in without wedding clothes and are cast out of the wedding reception? Or how does it benefit the 5 virgins without oil? Or or those on the wide path to destruction? Those who cause a little one to stumble?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by MacG View Post---I think the idea of limited atonement takes your proof text into account but just so I know, not being psychic and all, will you spell out what limited atonement is as you understand it. It don't need to be verbose, make it plain please.

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Anything less than all sins for all men:


Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


Hebrews 2:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


1 Timothy 2:6---King James Version (KJV)

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


2 Corinthians 5:14-15---King James Version (KJV)

14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Originally Posted by MacG

Not what I was expecting. So thanks for spelling out how you don't view limited atonement. So now I need a little more input.

Now what benefit is this unlimited atonement for those goats who will be gnashing their teeth in the outer darkness after being invited to the wedding, refusing to go but then attempt to go in without wedding clothes and are cast out of the wedding reception? Or how does it benefit the 5 virgins without oil? Or or those on the wide path to destruction? Those who cause a little one to stumble?

It provides all with the same thing--an absolvement of the condemnation brought upon man through the Fall--and an opportunity for all to inherit eternal life.

If God did not die for all--then the opportunity for eternal life did not exist for all.

[MacG]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

It provides all with the same thing--an absolvement of the condemnation brought upon man through the Fall--and an opportunity for all to inherit eternal life.

If God did not die for all--then the opportunity for eternal life did not exist for all.

If I am not mistaken (and why I asked you for your definition of limited atonement which may still help) the Calvinist would say that the Atonement is for all but like the invited wedding guests, nobody RSVP'd for it.

Is this part accurate?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by MacG

If I am not mistaken (and why I asked you for your definition of limited atonement which may still help) the Calvinist would say that the Atonement is for all but like the invited wedding guests, nobody RSVP'd for it.

Is this part accurate?

Limited Atonement means just that--limited. IOW--God did not die for all men--regardless who is invited to the wedding. The Limited Atonement is a false and anti-Biblical doctrine.

Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


Hebrews 2:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


1 Timothy 2:6---King James Version (KJV)

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


2 Corinthians 5:14-15---King James Version (KJV)

14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

[MacG]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Limited Atonement means just that--limited. IOW--God did not die for all men--regardless who is invited to the wedding. The Limited Atonement is a false and anti-Biblical doctrine.

Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


Hebrews 2:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


1 Timothy 2:6---King James Version (KJV)

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


2 Corinthians 5:14-15---King James Version (KJV)

14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

How does this differ with what you are trying to say:

3. THE ATONEMENT IS LIMITED IN PURPOSE AND APPLICATION
While the value of the atonement was sufficient to save all mankind, it was efficient to save only the elect. It is indifferently well adapted to the salvation of one man to that of another, thus making the salvation of every man objectively possible; yet because of subjective difficulties, arising on account of the sinners own inability either to see or appreciate the things of God, only those are saved who are regenerated and sanctified by the Holy Spirit. The reason why God does not apply this grace to all men has not been fully revealed.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by MacG

How does this differ with what you are trying to say:

3. THE ATONEMENT IS LIMITED IN PURPOSE AND APPLICATION
While the value of the atonement was sufficient to save all mankind, it was efficient to save only the elect. It is indifferently well adapted to the salvation of one man to that of another, thus making the salvation of every man objectively possible; yet because of subjective difficulties, arising on account of the sinners own inability either to see or appreciate the things of God, only those are saved who are regenerated and sanctified by the Holy Spirit. The reason why God does not apply this grace to all men has not been fully revealed.

It does not make any sense to me. If the Atonement "was sufficient to save all mankind,"--then it had to include all mankind. That could not be a limited Atonement--as to all inclusive numbers of all mankind.

And it confuses the grace of the Redemptive Atonement with the grace that allows the personal reception of eternal life. One was a free gift to all men--all men were Redeemed from the consequences of the Fall through the Atonement.

Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.



The other--His grace unto life--as a personal reception--goes to those who obey Him--and is not a free gift.


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


And it has been revealed why God does not apply His grace unto life, as a personal reception to all men:


2 Thessalonians 1:8-9----King James Version (KJV)


8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

[MacG]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

It does not make any sense to me. If the Atonement "was sufficient to save all mankind,"--then it had to include all mankind.

Wedding invitations are sent to everybody that would be sufficient to invite everybody. Unlimted invitation to all, no one did not get an invitation but do those who do not RVSP get to enjoy the party?

[Pa Pa]

Originally Posted by MacG

Wedding invitations are sent to everybody that would be sufficient to invite everybody. Unlimted invitation to all, no one did not get an invitation but do those who do not RVSP get to enjoy the party?

So you are a Calvinist. I would recommend you seek your own salvation before seeking ours.

[MacG]

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

So you are a Calvinist. I would recommend you seek your own salvation before seeking ours.

I suppose then that since you did not disagree with Jesus wedding parable then you are saying Jesus is a Calvinist?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by MacG

Wedding invitations are sent to everybody that would be sufficient to invite everybody. Unlimted invitation to all, no one did not get an invitation but do those who do not RVSP get to enjoy the party?

The Atonement Redemption was not an invitation with a RVSP. It was a free gift to all--whether it is accepted or not. No attendance necessary. God died for all men--all sins--of the whole world. Him alone. Done. Finished. Over when He completed it. The free gift came upon all men when God finished it--not when we attend the "party".

Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


"Came upon"--past tense. If the Redemption of mankind by Christ would have involved our faith, attendance or acceptance--it would have failed. His perfection only.

[MacG]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The Atonement Redemption was not an invitation with a RVSP.

Regardless of the RSVP, Matthew 22:3 And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come." All were invited, few came. "Jerusalem, Jerusalem how I longed to gather you as a hen gathers her chick but you would not."

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by MacG

Regardless of the RSVP, Matthew 22:3 And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come." All were invited, few came. "Jerusalem, Jerusalem how I longed to gather you as a hen gathers her chick but you would not."

I believe you are confusing the opportunity to inherit eternal life--which is a free gift that came to all through God's free gift of His Atonement, the Redemption--with the actual reception of God's grace unto life to those who obey Him--which comes to those who obey the Redeemer's conditions.

For instance--the Atonement made it possible for all men to repent of their sins--but it did not remiss anyone's sins.

Repentance and water baptism(obedience) was given by the Redeemer as the condition for the actual remission of sins.


Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The point being--if the Atonement forgave sins--then why were all commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins following the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ?

I liken that to a college. The presence of a college represents an opportunity for all to be educated. That is a free gift to all--and a very important one at that. We take that for granted, often. But there are places in the world where that opportunity is not present--regardless of how badly one desires an education.

The same true for God's free gift of the Atonement--unless we were released for the automatic consequences brought upon all men due to the Fall--the opportunity was not there, regardless of our desires.

God first had to conquer death and hell--which came to man automatically because of the Fall. That Christ did--and it is referred to as the Redemption. He Redeemed all men from the consequences of the Fall--which now allows all men to be judged according to their own works--and not for Adam's sin. That was a free gift to all men.

The next step in a college education is a degree. That comes to those who obey the criteria set by the college.

The same true for His grace unto life--that comes to those who meets the conditions set by the Redeemer--and is not a free gift. That requires obedience.

I believe the members of this board confuse those two things--the opportunity for Life--presented to all men through Christ's Atonement, as a free gift, no obedience required--and the actual reception of the grace unto life--presented to those who obey the Redeemer's conditions.

[MacG]

Just so it does not look like no one answered

Sub-thread moved to a new post by dberrie2000

http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/s...The-Redemption