Eternal Security

[Saxon]

You are creating a RED HERRING because that is NOT what Jude says.

Jude 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

No one doubts what you say, but that is a distinct and different matter than what is said in Jude. (This author is the half brother of Jesus.) You are failing to use the whole council of God as you do this, and you are making the verses enemies instead of friends

You are the one that is not using the whole council of God. You seem to think that if a real warning is there that speaks against OSAS the warning now turns into something that is not a friend. That is a silly thought on your part. If there is a storm and you are driving down the road and the bridge is out and I was to stop you and tell you to turn around because the bridge is out that makes me not a friend? If your friends would let you go through what good is their friendship? It is good for nothing.

Ezekiel 18:24 tells us clearly but that is not friendly so you ignore it. Jesus by way of Luke 8:13 tells us clearly but that is not friendly so you ignore it. Paul in Romans 11:20 and 21 tells us clearly but that is not friendly so you ignore it. The truth is OSAS is not true.

Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his tresp*** that he hath tresp***ed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

No one doubts what you say, but that is a distinct and different matter than what is said in Jude. (This author is the half brother of Jesus.) You are failing to use the whole council of God as you do this, and you are making the verses enemies instead of friends. The simple fact of the matter is that you seem to be creating an either/or situation when in fact the situation is REALLY both/and. This is what I mean by stating you are not looking at the whole council of God.

NOW can you see what I am saying?

Jude does not cancel out the rest of the Bible that clearly speaks in total opposition to OSAS You speak of the whole council of God, then I would suggest that you look at the whole council of God. How does he keep you from falling? He provided the scriptures that if you obey them you will not fall. The idea that we are saved and just wait for the sweet by and by because we are not responsible for salvation in any way is just a huge lie from the pit. If you were to look at the whole council of God you would find that we are responsible to have faith in Christ. Faith in Christ does not save us but God saved us by his grace. It is a total gift. After we are saved we are to engage in the good works that we were created in Christ Jesus to do. (See Ephesians 2:8 to 10) If we do not do what Christians are to do then we will be removed. (See John 15:1 and 2)

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

[John T]

Hello Saxon

You are making the verses enemies instead of friends.

Can you not see that is a case of "both..., and" instead of "either/ or"? If one does not accept that both the "Calvinist verses" and the "Free Will Baptist verses" are true, and come from the same Author, we neglect to use the whole council of God. Otherwise we wind up by implication that God is schizophrenic and unreliable because He cannot make His thoughts clear, nor can He keep His Covenental promises. Instead it is us, not Him who is unreliable because we are creatures with limited understanding.

No, that is not a nasty accusation, but it is a plea to be more temperate.

[Saxon]

Hello Saxon

You are making the verses enemies instead of friends.

Can you not see that is a case of "both..., and" instead of "either/ or"? If one does not accept that both the "Calvinist verses" and the "Free Will Baptist verses" are true, and come from the same Author, we neglect to use the whole council of God. Otherwise we wind up by implication that God is schizophrenic and unreliable because He cannot make His thoughts clear, nor can He keep His Covenental promises. Instead it is us, not Him who is unreliable because we are creatures with limited understanding.

No, that is not a nasty accusation, but it is a plea to be more temperate.

Can something be wet and dry at the same time? Can something be right and wrong at the same time? Either OSAS is true or OSAS is false. It has to be one or the other. Whoever is making a false statement using the word of God for support does not understand what is being said in the scriptures that are being used for support. It is either the “Calvinists” or the “Free Will Baptists” that are miss-using the scriptures. The Bible cannot and will not and does not contradict itself in any way. We cannot have OSAS both right and wrong and say that is what the Bible teaches.

I will agree with you when you say that it is us and not him that are not getting it right. God is not and never will be schizophrenic and unreliable. All scripture is “friendly”. We do not have the capability to change that. What we need to do is understand what God is telling us. In this case we are looking at OSAS and you appear to be saying that it is true and you can lose your salvation is true. To me, this is not possible seeing that it is diametrically opposed to each other.

You have said nothing nasty.

[John T]

Originally Posted by Saxon

I will agree with you when you say that it is us and not him that are not getting it right. God is not and never will be schizophrenic and unreliable. All scripture is “friendly”. We do not have the capability to change that. What we need to do is understand what God is telling us. In this case we are looking at OSAS and you appear to be saying that it is true and you can lose your salvation is true. To me, this is not possible seeing that it is diametrically opposed to each other.

You have said nothing nasty.

I an glad to see that you agree with me on something, but you miss my point about OSAS and Arninianism both being true simultaneously, and not exclusive of each other. We humans in out limited capacities of reason and logic want to make them exclusive. My theological position as a OSAS believer is to ask how can I reconcile the two positions without disparaging the Arminian position?

You see the "fight" between the Calvinist and Arminians is largely an in-house fight. It is akin to two teen aged boys trying to best each other in the living room of their house, and in the process, they may move furniture of break some lamps.

As long as the brothers are alive, they will remain brothers, and remain in the same family even after they have their own distinct families.

Here is an example of my attempt to reconcile two verses favored by both sides:
.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand

Isaiah 49:16 Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame
.

If you can imagine a child holding M&Ms in his fist, that is how tightly Jesus holds his Children, but it is more than that, believers are tattooed on the palms of God.

OTOH there is Hebrews 6:4-6 that tells us clearly that there are some people who "were enlightened, tasted, partook and know the powers of the world to come" to renew themselves into repentance because they are re-crucifying Jesus again.

Yes, I am guessing here, and I reserve the right to be wrong, but I believe that when Esau sold his birthright to Jacob for a bowl of red oatmeal that MAY be an example of what Hebrews 6 is talking about.

You see, no one took away the birthright of Esau; he willingly gave it up because it was not of much value to him. So that section does not speak of "back sliding" but I believe that is may be possible for one to relinquish the rights of their salvation.

When Absalom did all his nasty stuff to his father David, he relinquished any rights he had to be a son of the King because he openly showed contempt for his father. That may be another example.

So what I have done here is maintain the truth of both sections of verses and try to make a way to bring them together as brothers in the same book of God's words. Do you think that you could do likewise?

[Saxon]

I an glad to see that you agree with me on something, but you miss my point about OSAS and Arninianism both being true simultaneously, and not exclusive of each other. We humans in out limited capacities of reason and logic want to make them exclusive. My theological position as a OSAS believer is to ask how can I reconcile the two positions without disparaging the Arminian position?

You see the "fight" between the Calvinist and Arminians is largely an in-house fight. It is akin to two teen aged boys trying to best each other in the living room of their house, and in the process, they may move furniture of break some lamps.

As long as the brothers are alive, they will remain brothers, and remain in the same family even after they have their own distinct families.

Here is an example of my attempt to reconcile two verses favored by both sides:
.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand

Isaiah 49:16 Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame
.
If you can imagine a child holding M&Ms in his fist, that is how tightly Jesus holds his Children, but it is more than that, believers are tattooed on the palms of God.

OTOH there is Hebrews 6:4-6 that tells us clearly that there are some people who "were enlightened, tasted, partook and know the powers of the world to come" to renew themselves into repentance because they are re-crucifying Jesus again.

Yes, I am guessing here, and I reserve the right to be wrong, but I believe that when Esau sold his birthright to Jacob for a bowl of red oatmeal that MAY be an example of what Hebrews 6 is talking about.

You see, no one took away the birthright of Esau; he willingly gave it up because it was not of much value to him. So that section does not speak of "back sliding" but I believe that is may be possible for one to relinquish the rights of their salvation.

When Absalom did all his nasty stuff to his father David, he relinquished any rights he had to be a son of the King because he openly showed contempt for his father. That may be another example.

So what I have done here is maintain the truth of both sections of verses and try to make a way to bring them together as brothers in the same book of God's words. Do you think that you could do likewise?

I do see what you are attempting to do. You are beating a dead horse and expecting it to react. You cannot be dead and alive at the same time. You cannot be black and white at the same time. You cannot be right and wrong at the same time.

I cannot see how OSAS can be true and false at the same time. It just doesn’t compute. Now that I have said all that; show me!

[John T]

Originally Posted by Saxon

I do see what you are attempting to do. You are beating a dead horse and expecting it to react. You cannot be dead and alive at the same time. You cannot be black and white at the same time. You cannot be right and wrong at the same time.

I cannot see how OSAS can be true and false at the same time. It just doesn’t compute. Now that I have said all that; show me!

You are correct that "it does not compute", but can you understand that that comes from the mind of humans, and NOT from the mind of God?

As to the "dead horse" ****ogy, it is not appropriate as it pertains to either position. That is because I am attempting to demonstrate that because both sets of verses are in the Bible, both sets of verses MUST be true and harmonious. However I believe that the "dead horse" term MAY be appropriate to those who wish to make the Bible say something that God did not intend it to say because they are so entrenched in their polarized view, that they do not wish to reconcile "the other side" with their viewpoints.

For sure, I do not know if that describes you, and I do know that I am not pointing fingers; instead, I am opening the possibilities for a more reasoned discussion than has been done before. Just because you cannot reconcile polarities, it does not mean that we should not attempt to do this especially because this is not an issue that determines salvation. It is an in-house issue between brothers who are saved. Therefore you are setting up polarities that are not true because they are absolutes based in the world, and they are in keeping with what Scripture says. It is more of a rhetorical objection than one based on Scripture.

More to the point, IMHO your position seems to be tantamount to dividing brothers in Christ. I surely hope that it is your position that those professing Christians who are in the "OSAS camp" are just as much saved as those who are in the in the "Arminian camp". I say this because if you are taking the extreme position that the Christians who believe that the Bible "teaches OSAS" are apostates who are not saved then there is no hope of theological reconciliation with you on that issue.

Secondly, I believe that your position is placing too much emphasis on the phrase "in Christ". It seems to be an ambiguous and rhetorical point in an argument. That is because you do not supply us with the definition that you place on that phrase. For example, if one is "in Christ" how does one get to that position? If one considers that being "in Christ" is like a front door of a house, then how does the process of going out the back door, and being "out of Christ" work? I submit that there is no Scripture that supports the position that one can "place himself in Christ, which is the cornerstone of your position

Thirdly, you have not dealt with the examples I took from Scripture. They are in there for a purpose, and I described one reason why they are placed there. It is not necessary for you to agree with what I said, but I submit that if you do not agree, then it is necessary for you to supply a reason why such incidents are in the Bible. Otherwise you are basing your arguments on rhetoric, and not on facts.

I look forward to reading your response.

[Saxon]

You are correct that "it does not compute", but can you understand that that comes from the mind of humans, and NOT from the mind of God?

What does not compute is the idea that something can be right and wrong at the same time. Even in God’s realm this is not possible.

I think that you would agree that God had inspired Ezekiel to write Ezekiel 18:24. This statement makes it clear that OSAS is NOT an option.


Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his tresp*** that he hath tresp***ed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

As to the "dead horse" ****ogy, it is not appropriate as it pertains to either position. That is because I am attempting to demonstrate that because both sets of verses are in the Bible, both sets of verses MUST be true and harmonious. However I believe that the "dead horse" term MAY be appropriate to those who wish to make the Bible say something that God did not intend it to say because they are so entrenched in their polarized view, that they do not wish to reconcile "the other side" with their viewpoints.

All scripture is true and all scripture is from God. God’s word is in harmony. Harmony does not mean that things that seem to oppose each other are correct in the supposed opposition. In other word right and wrong; yes and no are not the same.

A person has to come to a conclusion but it cannot be that it is right and the opposite is also right. That is beating the dead horse.

For sure, I do not know if that describes you, and I do know that I am not pointing fingers; instead, I am opening the possibilities for a more reasoned discussion than has been done before. Just because you cannot reconcile polarities, it does not mean that we should not attempt to do this especially because this is not an issue that determines salvation. It is an in-house issue between brothers who are saved. Therefore you are setting up polarities that are not true because they are absolutes based in the world, and they are in keeping with what Scripture says. It is more of a rhetorical objection than one based on Scripture.

This is not an issue that determines if one is saved or not but it can effect the out come at the end of the earthly life.

If OSAS is true then there is nothing to worry about. The only real problem with OSAS if it were true is that you can never know if you are saved. If you die believing OSAS and it is not true and you fail to repent of sins committee while saved then you will be held accountable for them. (See Ezekiel 18:24)

If OSAS is not true then there is nothing to worry about because when you start to fall away you just have to repent and go on living for God. If I die not believing OSAS then it is ok because if it was true I just didn’t believe it, no big deal.

I am not setting up polarities, they are there before I was even born. God did not set up polarities but people that cannot reconcile eternal life /everlasting life and loss of salvation have set up the polarities.

More to the point, IMHO your position seems to be tantamount to dividing brothers in Christ. I surely hope that it is your position that those professing Christians who are in the "OSAS camp" are just as much saved as those who are in the in the "Arminian camp". I say this because if you are taking the extreme position that the Christians who believe that the Bible "teaches OSAS" are apostates who are not saved then there is no hope of theological reconciliation with you on that issue.

And believing OSAS isn’t equally dividing brothers in Christ???

Salvation is by grace through faith, not on what doctrines you believe. When we all get to heaven we are going to be surprised at who gets there and who doesn’t.

How did you ever come to the conclusion that I would hold that extreme view?? I have had people tell me that I am not saved because I do not believe OSAS. That is just as absurd.

Secondly, I believe that your position is placing too much emphasis on the phrase "in Christ". It seems to be an ambiguous and rhetorical point in an argument. That is because you do not supply us with the definition that you place on that phrase. For example, if one is "in Christ" how does one get to that position? If one considers that being "in Christ" is like a front door of a house, then how does the process of going out the back door, and being "out of Christ" work? I submit that there is no Scripture that supports the position that one can "place himself in Christ, which is the cornerstone of your position

If you think that I am placing too much emphasis on the phrase "in Christ" you will have to complain to the author as it was him that mentioned it. In Christ is the key to the whole affair and I am putting too much emphasis on it. You need a reality check.

There is no scripture that supports the position that one can "place himself in Christ”. Besides placing ones self in Christ, if it were possible, is not the problem. The problem is departing from the living God. (See Hebrews 3:12) The thought of place ones self in Christ, is not the cornerstone of my position. Being in Christ is the cornerstone of all of Christianity. In Christ is salvation, outside of Christ is lost sinners. I am not placing too much emphasis on “in Christ” it is you not putting enough emphasis on “in Christ”.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

[Saxon]

Thirdly, you have not dealt with the examples I took from Scripture. They are in there for a purpose, and I described one reason why they are placed there. It is not necessary for you to agree with what I said, but I submit that if you do not agree, then it is necessary for you to supply a reason why such incidents are in the Bible. Otherwise you are basing your arguments on rhetoric, and not on facts.

Here is an example of my attempt to reconcile two verses favored by both sides:
.
John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand

In order to be able to reconcile verses like this with being able to lose eternal life you need to have an understanding of what eternal life is and is not.

Eternal Life is a condition that exists in Christ alone. Only those that are “in Christ” are experiencing Eternal Life. The following verses are all ***ociating (Eternal) Life to Jesus Christ. So the answer to the question, what is the proper biblical Eternal Life? would be that Jesus Christ is Eternal Life.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

John 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

John 6:48 I am that bread of life.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

John 14:6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him

1John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
1John 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

1John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

From this we can see that eternal life is not a quan***y of life. If you take time to read the verses supplied and check the context you will soon see that eternal life is Jesus Christ himself. Jesus, the life, is eternal. Eternal life has always existed and will never end that is why it is called eternal life. Eternal life was eternal before you or I had it and if we were to fall away eternal life will still be eternal. Believers have nothing to do with eternal life being eternal.

It is true that no man will pluck the saved out of the father’s hand. The idea of being plucked and wandering off are very different. Hebrews 3:12 warns us about departing from the living God. A believer departing is different than someone or something plucking us from the Father’s hand. In the parable of the lost sheep, the sheep was actually lost. In this case the sheep was recovered but if it was not it would have died outside the care of the shepherd.

Isaiah 49:16 Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me.

This indicates how close God is to us but is not indicating OSAS.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame

This is supporting that a saved person can fall away.

[John T]

Originally Posted by Saxon

What does not compute is the idea that something can be right and wrong at the same time. Even in God’s realm this is not possible.

I think that you would agree that God had inspired Ezekiel to write Ezekiel 18:24. This statement makes it clear that OSAS is NOT an option.


All scripture is true and all scripture is from God. God’s word is in harmony. Harmony does not mean that things that seem to oppose each other are correct in the supposed opposition. In other word right and wrong; yes and no are not the same.

A person has to come to a conclusion but it cannot be that it is right and the opposite is also right. That is beating the dead horse.


This is not an issue that determines if one is saved or not but it can effect the out come at the end of the earthly life.

If OSAS is true then there is nothing to worry about. The only real problem with OSAS if it were true is that you can never know if you are saved. If you die believing OSAS and it is not true and you fail to repent of sins committee while saved then you will be held accountable for them. (See Ezekiel 18:24)

If OSAS is not true then there is nothing to worry about because when you start to fall away you just have to repent and go on living for God. If I die not believing OSAS then it is ok because if it was true I just didn’t believe it, no big deal.

I am not setting up polarities, they are there before I was even born. God did not set up polarities but people that cannot reconcile eternal life /everlasting life and loss of salvation have set up the polarities.

And believing OSAS isn’t equally dividing brothers in Christ???

Salvation is by grace through faith, not on what doctrines you believe. When we all get to heaven we are going to be surprised at who gets there and who doesn’t.

How did you ever come to the conclusion that I would hold that extreme view?? I have had people tell me that I am not saved because I do not believe OSAS. That is just as absurd.


If you think that I am placing too much emphasis on the phrase "in Christ" you will have to complain to the author as it was him that mentioned it. In Christ is the key to the whole affair and I am putting too much emphasis on it. You need a reality check.

There is no scripture that supports the position that one can "place himself in Christ”. Besides placing ones self in Christ, if it were possible, is not the problem. The problem is departing from the living God. (See Hebrews 3:12) The thought of place ones self in Christ, is not the cornerstone of my position. Being in Christ is the cornerstone of all of Christianity. In Christ is salvation, outside of Christ is lost sinners. I am not placing too much emphasis on “in Christ” it is you not putting enough emphasis on “in Christ”.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

All I did was attempt to have you think differently; however, you have demonstrated that you fail to consider the merits of another poster's ideas, that you are very rigid in your thinking, very selective in the Bible verses you cite (you did NOT address any of the verses I selected) very confrontational in that you set up non -scriptural either/or meaning right/wrong polarities from God's word and very rude because you say I need a "reality check" as if I was neurotic or having a mental illness.

And all of this is because I attempted to create a bridge of understanding in a nice, friendly manner. I made red your offending remarks. Your posts to me are primary reasons why I stay out of the Calvinism/Arminian mud slinging. Therefore with this post I unsubscribe to this thread.

For what you have done in this thread to others and me, may the Lord rebuke you, and may Holy Spirit convince you of the error of your prideful ways.

[Saxon]

All I did was attempt to have you think differently; however, you have demonstrated that you fail to consider the merits of another poster's ideas, that you are very rigid in your thinking, very selective in the Bible verses you cite (you did NOT address any of the verses I selected) very confrontational in that you set up non -scriptural either/or meaning right/wrong polarities from God's word and very rude because you say I need a "reality check" as if I was neurotic or having a mental illness.

What you would have me do is to go along with your idea that both sides to the discussion are right. This is a situation that no matter how friendly you wish to be you cannot have both “sets” of verses correct as it is a total impossibility. That is the reality that you need to check. It has nothing to do with the state of your mental stability as you wish to think.

And all of this is because I attempted to create a bridge of understanding in a nice, friendly manner. I made red your offending remarks. Your posts to me are primary reasons why I stay out of the Calvinism/Arminian mud slinging. Therefore with this post I unsubscribe to this thread.

You are the one that has come into this discussion unprepared and unwilling to think differently. I have told you what I believe to be true and when it flys in the face of what you seem to expect me to believe you get offended and quit the thread. I have never tried to force anyone to believe what I am saying. My hope is that the scriptures that I present will speak for themselves, if you actually take the time to see what is being said in the scriptures and believe them instead of the OSAS doctrine that is nowhere stated or, as far as I can see, even alluded to anywhere in the word of God.

For what you have done in this thread to others and me, may the Lord rebuke you, and may Holy Spirit convince you of the error of your prideful ways.

What is it that I have done to you and others on this thread except present what I honestly believe to be the truth. If you think that is error and pride, you are free to think that way if you want.