Belive And Be Saved

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Saxon

The only list is in your imagination.

I have visited the home pages of some Evangelical churches, and they have lists of requirements for becoming a Christian. Some of those lists contain 5-10 things they teach that a person MUST do if he wants to be a Christian.

Are you saying those Evangelical churches are just in Erundur's imagination? Since I am the one claiming to have seen those lists, are you saying that I, too, only exist in Erundur's imagination?

[Saxon]

Try visiting the pages of the Bible. What men write is not always right. The Bible is inspired by God and is what you want to read if you want information about salvation and how to gain it.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Saxon

There is no works involved with getting saved. Just believe.

No... To merely believe in Christ will not save you, even the Bible points this out.

James 2:19 You believe that there is one God; you do well: the demons also believe, and tremble.

A "Faith" in Christ is all that is required to save you... However, "faith" is an action word; a faith without works is a dead faith...

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

....and a dead faith can not save anybody, nor is it the requirement for salvation by God.
The Freudian Slip ***le of your thread was actually correct. Belive[Be Live] And be Saved.

In any case, you do not even believe you own mantra.

For instance, I believe and have a faith in Jesus Christ of the Bible, AM I SAVED?

As has been shown already on this thread, your answer is; No!
In fact, you hypocritically start adding on all kinds of beliefs, requirements, and actions I must take in order to be saved.

The second problem you have is that there are Churches that you consider to be Christian who have already stated that we are saved.... So why would I listen to you and not to them?

[Saxon]

No... To merely believe in Christ will not save you, even the Bible points this out.

To merely believe in Christ will save you, even the Bible points this out. Where is the rest of the answer to the jailors question, what must I do to be saved? Where is all the lists of works that the LDS want to heap upon people? Paul and Silas answered the question truthfully, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved.

Where is it mentioned in the answer that you have to make a choice between a true faith and a dead faith. It isn’t there.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

James 2:19 You believe that there is one God; you do well: the demons also believe, and tremble.

Demons are not creatures of faith. The fact that they are not saved is because there is no faith in them.

A "Faith" in Christ is all that is required to save you... However, "faith" is an action word; a faith without works is a dead faith...

You are totally out of touch with the Bible. Show me where God is ever obligated to save anyone whether they believe, have faith or do all the works that the LDS leaders place on everyone?

God is never ever obligated to save anyone. That is why all the works in all the time God grants us life on the Earth will never be enough to merit salvation.

Salvation is a gift that is given to us by God because he has an at***ude of grace towards man and loves man. God saves man that has faith in Jesus Christ because he wants to do it not because we have impressed him with our wonderful lives.

We are saved by grace not faith. The term grace eliminates any working by man to gain salvation. The fact that salvation is a gift from God also eliminates any working by man to gain salvation. The plain statement, NOT of works eliminates any working by man to gain salvation. We can do nothing to gain salvation.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

....and a dead faith can not save anybody, nor is it the requirement for salvation by God.

Faith does not save anyone in any case. You are making an argument where there is no argument.

The Freudian Slip ***le of your thread was actually correct. Belive[Be Live] And be Saved.

Believe is one term and be and live are two different terms. You are not amusing.

In any case, you do not even believe you own mantra.

For instance, I believe and have a faith in Jesus Christ of the Bible, AM I SAVED?

As has been shown already on this thread, your answer is; No!
In fact, you hypocritically start adding on all kinds of beliefs, requirements, and actions I must take in order to be saved.

Show me where I have added all kinds of belief requirements and actions in order to gain salvation.

The second problem you have is that there are Churches that you consider to be Christian who have already stated that we are saved.... So why would I listen to you and not to them?

That is not my problem that there are churches that I consider to be Christian that believe Mormons to be Christians, it is their problem. Besides I don’t recall mentioning any churches that I consider to be Christian that believe Mormons to be Christians. Seeing that you are privy to such information, tell me about it.

Listen to the Bible.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Saxon

To merely believe in Christ will save you, even the Bible points this out.

No... Only your interpretation of the Bible is all. Luckily you have been unable to even convince your own fellow Christians of this nonsense. Which is why I wonder why you are here? Do you believe the Mormons are more gullible than they are?

Originally Posted by Saxon

Demons are not creatures of faith. The fact that they are not saved is because there is no faith in them.

Wait a minute, look at your thread ***le, there is nothing in it about faith, or grace.... just believe. You seem to be changing your tune once the fallacy of your theology has been exposed.

Originally Posted by Saxon

You are totally out of touch with the Bible. Show me where God is ever obligated to save anyone whether they believe, have faith or do all the works that the LDS leaders place on everyone?

I never said anything about obligation, that is your strawman that you created in order to divert attention from your failed argument.

Originally Posted by Saxon

God is never ever obligated to save anyone. That is why all the works in all the time God grants us life on the Earth will never be enough to merit salvation

True, but that has nothing to do with your ***ertion.

Originally Posted by Saxon

Believe is one term and be and live are two different terms. You are not amusing.

I actually meant to be amusing, however the problem is that you did not write "Believe"
The fact that this went right over your head only demonstrates your inability to comprehend the simplist of statements, let alone something complicated like the Bible.

Originally Posted by Saxon

Show me where I have added all kinds of belief requirements and actions in order to gain salvation.

You stated all one had to do is to believe to be saved...
Its been put forward to you numerous times that we as Mormons believe in the Lord Jesus Christ of the Bible, ergo... We are saved, right?
If not, why not?

This is where you then start adding on all kinds of qualifiers and actions we as Mormons must first do to be saved. Anyone who has read this thread can see your hypocrisy.

Originally Posted by Saxon

That is not my problem that there are churches that I consider to be Christian that believe Mormons to be Christians, it is their problem.

This just points to another one of your hypocrisies. 85% of people who call themselves Christian see Faith Alone AKA, "Cheap Grace" as a heresy, yet you still see them as saved. In fact, if you truely believe that works has nothing to do with salvation, then the fact that we and the vast majority of Christian faiths believe they do, and practice such; will not in any way change whether we are saved or not.... So why bother telling us about it, if it changes nothing anyway.

The way I see it, is if we are right in that we need both works and faith to be saved, then we will be saved if we have both, yet you will not be saved because you lack works.
On the other hand if you are right and faith/belief is all that was needed to be saved, then we are still saved because we still at least have faith....

It's a win-win for us, as we have both bases covered.
However, you've only got 50%-50% chance at salvation.

[Saxon]

No... Only your interpretation of the Bible is all. Luckily you have been unable to even convince your own fellow Christians of this nonsense. Which is why I wonder why you are here? Do you believe the Mormons are more gullible than they are?

Of course it is my interpretation of the Bible. I would be less than honest with myself if I didn’t believe it the way that I read it and understand it. You have the same privilege to believe what you believe as well. ***uming that one of us is correct then logically the other is wrong. What I do is rely on what the Bible says to me in what I feel is a clear understanding.

I don’t have to convince my fellow Christians to believe me as we, for the most part, are in agreement. As far as Mormons being more gullible, that has nothing to do with it. We do not see the Christian faith in the same light. We are 180 degrees out of phase on most topics.

Do you take everything that the LDS teach without question? I am allowed to question the church leaders where I attend and it is expected that it will be done if any member feels the need to understand or even correct the Pastor. This is not a sin but rather it is a duty. The truth is more important than the preacher being always thought to be right no matter what. We are not to swallow everything blindly that is taught, but we should follow the example of the believers at Berea, who searched the scriptures to check if Paul and Silas were telling the truth or not. (See Acts 17:10 and 11) Should we be any different?

Acts 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Wait a minute, look at your thread ***le, there is nothing in it about faith, or grace.... just believe. You seem to be changing your tune once the fallacy of your theology has been exposed.

Wait a minute, read the Bible:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

It says saved by grace through faith. Believing is an act of faith. When God sees our faith he saves us but it is by grace as we do not deserve salvation.

Faith in God is more than a theoretical belief in Him. To have faith in God is to trust Him, to have confidence in Him, and to be willing to act on your belief in Him. It is a principle of action and power. (http://www.mormon.org/faq/topic/fait.../what-is-faith)

I never said anything about obligation, that is your strawman that you created in order to divert attention from your failed argument.

No, you never said anything about obligation, I did. If you work for someone that someone is obligated to pay you. You can work to gain salvation all you want but God will not be obligated to grant you salvation because of your work. This is not a straw man this is truth. (See Ephesians 2:9) What part of “not of works” is so difficult to understand?

True, but that has nothing to do with your ***ertion

.

It has everything, Salvation is a gift, not of works. You do not need to do anything to gain salvation but believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

I actually meant to be amusing, however the problem is that you did not write "Believe"
The fact that this went right over your head only demonstrates your inability to comprehend the simplist of statements, let alone something complicated like the Bible.

A typing error doesn’t change the truth. You are still not amusing but you do stumble over the obvious quite eloquently.

You stated all one had to do is to believe to be saved...
Its been put forward to you numerous times that we as Mormons believe in the Lord Jesus Christ of the Bible, ergo... We are saved, right?
If not, why not?

This is where you then start adding on all kinds of qualifiers and actions we as Mormons must first do to be saved. Anyone who has read this thread can see your hypocrisy.

If the Mormon Jesus is not the Jesus that is the person that the father sent to die for our sins then you can believe in him all you want and you will not be saved.

The Bible states that Jesus is the creator of everything that was created. Lucifer was also created by the creator, Jesus. Jesus of the Bible is not the spirit brother of Lucifer but his creator. This is an irreconcilable difference that has no possible way to conclude that the Mormon Jesus is the same as the Jesus described in the Bible.

This just points to another one of your hypocrisies. 85% of people who call themselves Christian see Faith Alone AKA, "Cheap Grace" as a heresy, yet you still see them as saved. In fact, if you truely believe that works has nothing to do with salvation, then the fact that we and the vast majority of Christian faiths believe they do, and practice such; will not in any way change whether we are saved or not.... So why bother telling us about it, if it changes nothing anyway.

This is not a democratic vote. The majority is not necessarily right. When the Bible says “not of works”, I don’t care if it is 99.9% that believe works have a part in salvation, it just isn’t so and never will be. The problem is that you who believe that works will gain salvation for you are trusting in your works and not trusting in God to give what he said is a gift. If you are trusting your works and not trusting God, it changes everything.

The way I see it, is if we are right in that we need both works and faith to be saved, then we will be saved if we have both, yet you will not be saved because you lack works.
On the other hand if you are right and faith/belief is all that was needed to be saved, then we are still saved because we still at least have faith....

Yes, faith in your works that will get you nowhere.

It's a win-win for us, as we have both bases covered.
However, you've only got 50%-50% chance at salvation.

When the Bible says “not of works” I have it all, 100%.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by theway

No... Only your interpretation of the Bible is all. Luckily you have been unable to even convince your own fellow Christians of this nonsense. Which is why I wonder why you are here? Do you believe the Mormons are more gullible than they are?

Wait a minute, look at your thread ***le, there is nothing in it about faith, or grace.... just believe. You seem to be changing your tune once the fallacy of your theology has been exposed.

I never said anything about obligation, that is your strawman that you created in order to divert attention from your failed argument.

True, but that has nothing to do with your ***ertion.

I actually meant to be amusing, however the problem is that you did not write "Believe"
The fact that this went right over your head only demonstrates your inability to comprehend the simplist of statements, let alone something complicated like the Bible.


You stated all one had to do is to believe to be saved...
Its been put forward to you numerous times that we as Mormons believe in the Lord Jesus Christ of the Bible, ergo... We are saved, right?
If not, why not?

This is where you then start adding on all kinds of qualifiers and actions we as Mormons must first do to be saved. Anyone who has read this thread can see your hypocrisy.

This just points to another one of your hypocrisies. 85% of people who call themselves Christian see Faith Alone AKA, "Cheap Grace" as a heresy, yet you still see them as saved. In fact, if you truely believe that works has nothing to do with salvation, then the fact that we and the vast majority of Christian faiths believe they do, and practice such; will not in any way change whether we are saved or not.... So why bother telling us about it, if it changes nothing anyway.

The way I see it, is if we are right in that we need both works and faith to be saved, then we will be saved if we have both, yet you will not be saved because you lack works.
On the other hand if you are right and faith/belief is all that was needed to be saved, then we are still saved because we still at least have faith....

It's a win-win for us, as we have both bases covered.
However, you've only got 50%-50% chance at salvation.

Hey, "theway," aren't you permanently banned from CARM for using double posting names?

[theway]

Originally Posted by Apologette

Hey, "theway," aren't you permanently banned from CARM for using double posting names?

No.... No I was not... And you already know that because you were the one who got me banned on another false statement of yours which you told them I had said.

I realize it's hard for a person to try and keep their false accusations straight...

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by theway

No.... No I was not... And you already know that because you were the one who got me banned on another false statement of yours which you told them I had said.

I realize it's hard for a person to try and keep their false accusations straight...

So, tell us "the way" NOT, haven't you been banned from CARM for using multiple posting names? If not that, care to share just why you are banned?

[theway]

Originally Posted by Apologette

So, tell us "the way" NOT, haven't you been banned from CARM for using multiple posting names? If not that, care to share just why you are banned?

No... thats not why I was banned, and I've already shared the reason on this forum.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by theway

No.... No I was not... And you already know that because you were the one who got me banned on another false statement of yours which you told them I had said.

I realize it's hard for a person to try and keep their false accusations straight...

No, you made the statement that what CARM was engaging in activity for which it could be sued. You knew exactly what you were doing, pal. When you get employed, and work as an attorney, then maybe we'll listen to you.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Apologette

No, you made the statement that what CARM was engaging in activity for which it could be sued. You knew exactly what you were doing, pal. When you get employed, and work as an attorney, then maybe we'll listen to you.

Well then, on that same note... As soon as you get a theology degree from an accredited university (and not one from a diploma mill), become an ordained Minister/Preacher, become a member of the LDS Church, or even at the very least of read the Book of Mormon from cover to cover.... then maybe we'll listen to you.

I notice also that you did not deny that my findings were correct or accurate?
I thought you said you were one who stood up for the truth no matter where it comes from?

[alanmolstad]

I believe Jill was very clear in telling all here that we should not drag problems and issues with people from other Forums back here on to this forum...

We all saw this right?...we all understand this correct?.....