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Thread: Did the Son of God Pre-exist?

  1. #1
    S.R.L
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    Default Did the Son of God Pre-exist?

    S.R.L/ I would answer yes, but in different ways because of God’s foreknowledge or mind and the Scriptures (Rev 13:8), (I Peter 1: 18-20), (Gal 4:4), (Heb 2:9). Therefore, he had existence in God’s foreknowledge.
    Another way that the Son of God could pre-exist was as the Word of God( Logos). In other words, the Son of God did Pre-exist , but not as the Son of God: As the Word of God instead.
    He who was the Word of God in the Old Testament became the Son of God in the New Testament. The male person born of Mary did not Pre-exist as a Son for the results of this would mean a Pre-existent human being. However, this does not change the fact that He who was the Son of God in the New Testament, had existed before in a different form. God in Christ in both testaments. Christ has always been the visible temple of the invisible God.

    (“If ye knew these things” by Ross Drysdale chpt.15 pgs.1-3)

    I can relate to this God in Christ author better than others. I have never seen or heard the God in Christ message taught this way.

  2. #2
    alanmolstad
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    it is an interesting question

  3. #3
    S.R.L
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    Carrying on …… This author states that in the Old Testament dispensation, the invisible God (Spirit) was embodied in the “visible form of Christ” as the Angel of God. And in New Testament times the same God is embodied in the “physical form of Christ” as the Son of God. This Christ, whether as Angel of God or Son of God has always been the mediator between the invisible God (Spirit) and his creation. And Christ, whether as Angel of God or Son of God, has always been God’s only “Person”, God’s visible image. Furthermore, God the invisible Spirit has always embodied his essential Deity and nature in the visible body of His “Person,” the Christ.
    Genesis 28:13, Jacob had a vision of God at Bethel. God made the declaration to him at this time that he was the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac.” And twenty –One years later the Angel of God appeared to Jacob and told him that He was the God that appeared to Him at Bethel (Gen.31:11-13). So we can see from Scripture that the Angel of God is the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac.
    (“If ye knew these things” by Ross Drysdale chpt. 15 pg. 5)

    So, all of the God in Christ believers need to start defining the concept of "God in Christ" in the Old Testament alongside the New Testament "God in Christ" truth because the neglect of this aspect has caused controversy with believers of different doctrines. A lot of the early pioneers of the God in Christ doctrine taught the concept of God in Christ in the Old Testament. It was and is part of this message.
    Last edited by S.R.L; 07-28-2015 at 04:49 AM.

  4. #4
    Senior Member disciple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S.R.L View Post
    S.R.L/ I would answer yes, but in different ways because of God’s foreknowledge or mind and the Scriptures (Rev 13:8), (I Peter 1: 18-20), (Gal 4:4), (Heb 2:9). Therefore, he had existence in God’s foreknowledge.
    Another way that the Son of God could pre-exist was as the Word of God( Logos). In other words, the Son of God did Pre-exist , but not as the Son of God: As the Word of God instead.
    He who was the Word of God in the Old Testament became the Son of God in the New Testament. The male person born of Mary did not Pre-exist as a Son for the results of this would mean a Pre-existent human being. However, this does not change the fact that He who was the Son of God in the New Testament, had existed before in a different form. God in Christ in both testaments. Christ has always been the visible temple of the invisible God.

    (“If ye knew these things” by Ross Drysdale chpt.15 pgs.1-3)

    I can relate to this God in Christ author better than others. I have never seen or heard the God in Christ message taught this way.
    I think The statement made by Jesus in John 17:5 answers the question,"And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."

  5. #5
    S.R.L
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    disciple/ I think the statement made by Jesus in John 17:5 answers the question,"And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."

    S.R.L/ I agree with you but my question is: Could not “The Christ,” the Son of God have Pre-existed as the “Word of God” and become the celestial glorified body form “ Angel of God” that God dwelt in and was seen in Old Testament times. And this Word eventually changed into the flesh and blood body of the “Son of God.” “The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1:14). The Pre-Incarnate Christ Scriptures can then be understood without controversy from the God in Christ perspective.

    God dwelt in Christ in both Testaments; the only difference was the bodily forms. In the Old Testament, Christ had a glorified celestial body and in the New Testament a human body.

    ("if ye knew these things" by Ross Drysdale)

  6. #6
    S.R.L
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    Carrying on: Shortly after this a "man" wrestled with Jacob (Gen. 32:24). This mysterious "man" is called the "face of God." What Jacob saw was the Logos, the "image of the invisible God." This was the pre-incarnate Christ, then known as the Angel of the Lord.

    The Prophet Hosea speaking about Jacob's unusual "wrestling match" said, "Yea, he had power over the Angel, and prevailed: he wept and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel... even Jehovah God of hosts: Jehovah is his memorial" (Hosea 12:4-5 margin).

    Here we see that the mysterious "man" who wrestled with Jacob, as a man, is none other than the Angel of the Lord, and in His divine nature, Jehovah God Himself. Jacob wrestled with God in Christ. And this is the same One who is described as the "Word" who was in the Beginning, and was God. There can be no other conclusion. Jacob's mysterious "man" is identified by Hosea as the Angel of God. And this Angel of God is defined by the same prophet as Jehovah God.

    Some may wonder if it is correct to refer to the Angel of the Lord as "Christ". They have ***umed this is a New Testament designation only. Christ is Greek for the "Anointed One." The Hebrew form is "Messiah", and as such was certainly used in the Old Testament, used by the Jews of Christ's day, contained the Word Christ (Christos-Greek). The Angel of God, being the embodiment of both God's nature and name, was certainly the "Anointed One" or "Christ" in Old Testament times. And the Bible clearly refers to the Angel of the Lord as Christ, and in more than one reference.

    In 1 Cor. 10:4, Paul designates the Angel of the Lord that was with Israel in the wilderness, guiding and protecting them, as "Christ." "And they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ."
    When that same Angel of God was "provoked" (Ex 23:21) and "pardoned not their transgressions," but sent fiery serpents into the camp, "much people of Israel died" (Numb 2:6). Yet Paul says it was Christ that had been "provoked" or "tempted," again clearly identifying the Angel with Christ:

    ("if ye knew these things" by Ross Drysdale)

    God in Christ in both Testaments.

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    You seem to have it different that the Bible.

    John 1:1 says that the word was God. John 1:2 says The same was in the beginning with God. You have the whole Trinity there because the Father , the Son and the Holy Spirit are the one God. The word was God and was with God The trinity. The Bible separates the persons of the Trinity as Father and Son and in Acts 5:3 and 4 claims that the Holy Spirit is also God. ***uming that the word that became flesh is eternal would it not be more correct to say that Christ was the Angle of the Lord instead of the Angle of the Lord was Christ. After all John 1:14 states that the very word that was God and was with God became flesh (Jesus Christ) and dwelled among us. The only God became a man.

    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
    John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
    John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
    John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

    John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
    Acts 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
    Be ready to pray, preach or die at a moments notice

  8. #8
    Senior Member disciple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S.R.L View Post
    disciple/ I think the statement made by Jesus in John 17:5 answers the question,"And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."

    S.R.L/ I agree with you but my question is: Could not “The Christ,” the Son of God have Pre-existed as the “Word of God” and become the celestial glorified body form “ Angel of God” that God dwelt in and was seen in Old Testament times. And this Word eventually changed into the flesh and blood body of the “Son of God.” “The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1:14). The Pre-Incarnate Christ Scriptures can then be understood without controversy from the God in Christ perspective.

    God dwelt in Christ in both Testaments; the only difference was the bodily forms. In the Old Testament, Christ had a glorified celestial body and in the New Testament a human body.

    ("if ye knew these things" by Ross Drysdale)
    Hello SRL,
    I am having a hard time discerning what you mean, are you saying that Jesus was originally something other than the Son?
    “Glorify Me together with Yourself.” First, the glory mentioned here is a shared glory Father and Son. It is the divine glory that God does “not share” with anyone else, (see Isaiah 48:11). Notice that the glorification applies to both the Father and the Son, the glory they shared before the creation. It is not glory apart from the Father that Jesus seeks, but rather glory alongside the Father. The glory of which Jesus speaks is a “Me with You” glory. In terms of the divine unshared glory that the Son possesses, Hebrews 1:3 corresponds in an interesting way to John 17:5: “who (Jesus) being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person”. In Isaiah 6, Isaiah saw the glory of God, and this glory that Isaiah “saw” was the glory of Jesus, according to the Apostle John in John 12:37-41 “These things Isaiah said because he saw the glory of Him” referring to Jesus,
    37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him,
    38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:
    “Lord, who has believed our report?
    And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”
    39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
    40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
    Lest they should see with their eyes,
    Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
    So that I should heal them.”
    41 These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.

  9. #9
    alanmolstad
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    there is a reason you dont understand the wordings...The only thing I make out at all is basic UPC Cult thinking that does hide behind nearly-right sounding words...

    But as we know the teachings behind the UPC and the "oneness" junk are in error...so...well..there you go

  10. #10
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by S.R.L View Post
    S.R.L/ I would answer yes, but in different ways because of God’s foreknowledge or mind and the Scriptures (Rev 13:8), (I Peter 1: 18-20), (Gal 4:4), (Heb 2:9). Therefore, he had existence in God’s foreknowledge.
    Another way that the Son of God could pre-exist was as the Word of God( Logos). In other words, the Son of God did Pre-exist , but not as the Son of God: As the Word of God instead.
    He who was the Word of God in the Old Testament became the Son of God in the New Testament. The male person born of Mary did not Pre-exist as a Son for the results of this would mean a Pre-existent human being. However, this does not change the fact that He who was the Son of God in the New Testament, had existed before in a different form. God in Christ in both testaments. Christ has always been the visible temple of the invisible God.

    (“If ye knew these things” by Ross Drysdale chpt.15 pgs.1-3)

    I can relate to this God in Christ author better than others. I have never seen or heard the God in Christ message taught this way.
    This statement above is good and correct.
    I dont find much I would change about it at all...

  11. #11
    Senior Member johnd's Avatar
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    The Spirit (God the Word) did in fact preexist from all eternity the same as the Spirit (the Father) and the Spirit (the Holy Spirit) did.

    The Son (the man Jesus) did not exist before the Father created this body and the Holy Spirit placed the holy embryo in the womb of the virgin Mary.

    Hebrews 10:5 (AV)

    5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:


    Hebrews 1:5 (AV)
    5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

    This day, will be, shall be indicative of a time when these were not true or did not exist yet.
    The Bible is its own best commentary.
    Prophecy is the word of God
    which sometimes speaks of future... sometimes of the present... sometimes of the past.
    A prophet is the tool God uses.
    It's not about the prophet, but about the God who uses the prophet to speak his word...

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