The three Jewish Temples.

[johnd]

Prophetic years (360 day years) do not necessarily line up with solar years (which as can be pointed out as recently as the 1700's CE have been inaccurately kept and maintained).

[asdf]

Originally Posted by johnd

Prophetic years (360 day years) do not necessarily line up with solar years (which as can be pointed out as recently as the 1700's CE have been inaccurately kept and maintained).

Further down the rabbit hole we go...

Are you now positing yet a third type of year needed to make your calculations work—a Hebrew year, a 'Gentile' year, and a 'prophetic' year?

It's a pretty interesting hypothesis, I must say—but I'm still holding out judgment until I see the evidence laid out.

[johnd]

The Bible establishes many time tables.

Those who would only be skeptical will never understand or apply them.

The seven day week, for example. Folks like you tried to make it a 10 day week at one time which obviously did not work or did not take. So why 7 days?

God set some of these time tables into universal motion while others not so universal (the years of Jubilee or the Heptade versus the standards decade).

No matter. And your snide comment about rabbit trails reminds me why I flushed you down the ignore hole to begin with... so down you go again to stay swirling ever downward out of my precious time.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by johnd

The Bible establishes many time tables.

Those who would only be skeptical will never understand or apply them.

The seven day week, for example. Folks like you tried to make it a 10 day week at one time which obviously did not work or did not take. So why 7 days?

God set some of these time tables into universal motion while others not so universal (the years of Jubilee or the Heptade versus the standards decade).

No matter. And your snide comment about rabbit trails reminds me why I flushed you down the ignore hole to begin with... so down you go again to stay swirling ever downward out of my precious time.

Indeed — wouldn't want to waste your precious time having to actually think about or provide evidence for your unsubstantiated ***ertions. It's so much easier to just cast me out as mentally deficient or reprobate for daring to question your infallibility.

You have fun with that.

[johnd]

The mark of the beast is often thought of as some elaborate code identifying each individual it marks. But there is not indication in scripture it will be anything other than a universal symbol like the swastika was under the Nazi regime. It has only to identify the bearer as one who has the mark.

Revelation 13:11-18 (NASB95)
11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb and he spoke as a dragon.
12 He exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed.
13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men.
14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who had the wound of the sword and has come to life.
15 And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed.
16 And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead,
17 and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.


Ever give a good look at the so-called Star of David? It is a 666 symbol. Six points, six triangles, with a six sided center.

By the way it predates David, though it was not a symbol of David, but rather the seal of his son Solomon. This seal of Solomon was used by the first king of Israel to lead the nation into idolatry and paganism.

The symbol was only recently adopted to represent the people of Israel. Jews were branded with this occult symbol by Hitler in the 1930's. And as an act of defiance the Jews adopted it. Similar to the Americans adopting the disparaging by the British during the Revolutionary War "Yanks" or "Yankees."

The occult symbol goes back to the Sumerian era.

And were not the symbol for Israel before the 1930's. The seven candle menorah was.

[MacG]

Didn't the 666 get revised to 616 recently?

MacG

[johnd]

.....nope.

[MacG]

Originally Posted by johnd

.....nope.

Have you seen this:
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/1113...evalued-to-616

What's your take on it? Should this move to another thread?

MacG

[johnd]

According to the complete Jewish Bible:

This is where wisdom is needed; those who understand should count the number of the beast, for it is the number of a person, and its number is 666

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by johnd

This is where wisdom is needed; ......

I have yet to find an End Times teacher that fulfilled this requirement of the needed "wisdom"...


All who do Bible Math always end up picking a date, or naming a person that they think the Bible predicts, only to always see their predictions fail...

[johnd]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I have yet to find an End Times teacher that fulfilled this requirement of the needed "wisdom"...


All who do Bible Math always end up picking a date, or naming a person that they think the Bible predicts, only to always see their predictions fail...

Solomon was the wisest man to live, with understanding greater than anyone.

Revelation 13:18 (KJV)
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.


2 of the 4 scriptures that have 666 in it refer to Solomon... builder of the first temple. The Jews today are looking for a messiah who will build the third (actually fourth) temple and establish peace....


Jeremiah 6:14 (KJV)
14 They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.



Solomon (shlomo) is derived from the word for peace Shalom.


Daniel 9:27 (KJV)
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


That covenant is what we would call the old covenant / old testament and claim to be the promised messiah and claiming Jesus is not the true Messiah.


Another way of arriving at the beast having something to do with the rebuilt temple is in calculating the dates between the destruction of the first two temples in Hebrew years (666).



During this time Christians who refuse to take the mark (who are in fact the real Christians) will be hunted down to near extinction.



That pretty much sums up the criteria of the verse.


Here is wisdom.

Let him that hath understanding

count the number of the beast:

for it is the number of a man;

and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by johnd

Solomon (shlomo) is derived from the word for peace Shalom.

Indeed. But for one to tie it to a particular scripture on the basis of the Shlomo/shalom tie is rather tenuous, IMO.

Another way of arriving at the beast having something to do with the rebuilt temple is in calculating the dates between the destruction of the first two temples in Hebrew years (666).

Which, of course, you have not established, beyond a bit of bluster on three different calendars, for which you have not provided substantiation.

[alanmolstad]

Let me say this again to be very clear...


All who do "Bible math" fail....

Oh they think they have the secret to understanding the 666 number, of the 70 weeks verse...but in the end, they FAIL



Mostly what you find is that the guy doing all the Bible math has a thing against the Jews, or the Catholics, or Obama, or Henry Kissinger and he works the numbers so that end up pointing to the Jews or Catholics as being the beast, or the false Christ predicted by the Bible.

[johnd]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Let me say this again to be very clear...


All who do "Bible math" fail....

Oh they think they have the secret to understanding the 666 number, of the 70 weeks verse...but in the end, they FAIL



Mostly what you find is that the guy doing all the Bible math has a thing against the Jews, or the Catholics, or Obama, or Henry Kissinger and he works the numbers so that end up pointing to the Jews or Catholics as being the beast, or the false Christ predicted by the Bible.

Again...

{sigh}

The Bible math is not a failure. the wisdom is to clue us in on Solomon builder of the first temple destroyed on Tisha b'Av 586 BCE and the second destroyed on Tisha b'Av 70CE on the Hebrew calendar 666 years apart to the day.

How is that a failure?

And about setting dates... I have not set one. I am showing how the Bible will in studies about Daniel 12:11-12 but that it will not be clear to humanity until the 70th Week of Daniel is half over when the rebuilt temple sacrifices will be abated.

Jesus said we are to understand the times and the seasons even if we cannot know the dates.

[johnd]

Vincent (Starry Starry Night) Lyrics
Starry starry night, paint your palette blue and grey
Look out on a summer's day with eyes that know the darkness in my soul
Shadows on the hills, sketch the trees and the daffodils
Catch the breeze and the winter chills, in colors on the snowy linen land

Now I understand what you tried to say to me
How you suffered for you sanity How you tried to set them free
They would not listen they did not know how, perhaps they'll listen now

Starry starry night, flaming flowers that brightly blaze
Swirling clouds in violet haze reflect in Vincent's eyes of china blue
Colors changing hue, morning fields of amber grain
Weathered faces lined in pain are soothed beneath the artist's loving hand

Now I understand what you tried to say to me
How you suffered for you sanity How you tried to set them free
They would not listen they did not know how, perhaps they'll listen now

For they could not love you, but still your love was true
And when no hope was left in sight, on that starry starry night
You took your life as lovers often do,
But I could have told you, Vincent,
This world was never meant for one as beautiful as you

Starry, starry night, portraits hung in empty halls
Frameless heads on nameless walls with eyes that watch the world and can't forget.
Like the stranger that you've met, the ragged man in ragged clothes
The silver thorn of bloody rose, lie crushed and broken on the virgin snow

Now I think I know what you tried to say to me
How you suffered for you sanity How you tried to set them free
They would not listen they're not listening still
Perhaps they never will.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by johnd

Again...

{sigh}

The Bible math is not a failure.

All people that attempt to do "Bible math" will fail!

Oh they pat themselves on the back for being able to screw with the numbers to make things work out for stuff in the past...LOL

Oh they love to say that added up this number to that number,then subtracted the number of hairs on the 2nd knuckle of their left hand, then added the number of licks to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll and ended up with the date for the start of WW2.

It means NOTHING!

You give me any date and i bet i can find ways to add up different verses in the Bible to come up with any date you want to pick.

So Bible Math of the past is meaningless.

The Bible Math that i speak of is where people try to add up numbers and get to some type of date in the future.

The name "Miller" comes to mind.

This is why i never get mixed up in End Time conversations.
The reason is, that one thing leads to another, and before you know it you hear someone make the claim that they have 'unlocked" the meaning of the End Times verses, and by doing some math have come up for the date of the end of the world.

Sooner or later it always happens, and it always ends in FAIL

[johnd]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

It means NOTHING!

...to you. I respect your ability to choose.

I am quite frustrated with your lack of respect for others to choose to believe what is in the Bible...

The 360 day year,
The Jewish calendar dates the two temples were destroyed
The use of simple math to come up with this biblical clue.

I mean, any one can say what you said and offer no proof or evidence to the contrary of what I stated. None. You just yammered on about math and failure.

Yes men have failed with math they misinterpreted.... that is not proof I did.

Again... 665.666666666667 is puhretty close to the subject at hand would you not agree?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by johnd

Again... 665.666666666667 is puhretty close to the subject at hand would you not agree?

no its pointless and meaningless...

You can find ways to come up with any number you want as long as you know in advance what number you seek to end up at.

There are books connecting the layout of the Pyramids in Egypt and stars in the sky....or with different craters on the moon....or with , etc, etc, etc...

The trick is that as long as you know the outcome design (or the final number you seek to end up with) you can look around and find things to add up or point to that can get you the final result you are seeking to prove.

If you want to prove that the Bible predicts the day the Beatles came out with their WHITE album, Im sure that you can add up some verses, or some statements about this or that made in the Bible, subtract the number of times something else appears, and end up with the final date you were seeking from the start..

All you have to know a head of time is what day or number you want to end up at (1968) and you will know when you are done doing the Bible math....LOL
So you keep dreaming up ways to do Bible Math until you get to the magic number you knew in advance as being 1968, and and when your Bible Math gets you to that magic number you STOP!.....

But lets say you are sincere.

Lets say that you want to end up with some real "proof" that your Bible math system is correct.

Lets also say you seek to make a good-faith effort to show you are correct.

In that case,if you really want to know if your own Bible Math is truly something correctly drawn from the bible?...then try to predict something you dont know the final date for!

Thats how you put your own Bible Math to the test!

Predict something in the as-yet unknown future and then you have proved your system.
You want proof, and there's the way to get it.

Now, many guys do this too as we have seen over the years.
Lots of guys add up all kinds of numbers in the bible to come up with the date for the return of Christ, or the date of the Anti-Christ, etc.

What we always see is the same result of doing such future bible math.
They all FAIL.

They always predict a date in the near-future based on their 100% guaranteed Bible Math system, and in the end their predicted date will always Fail.
They always fail,

and they always end up with egg on their faces.

Some learn their lessons (Chuck Smith).

But a lot of other guys just look at the failure and rather than learn the lesson from it, they turn around and believe that the "Bible Math concept" was correct, but the numbers used were the only error.

Some guys believe that they have discovered the true way to add up the correct numbers to come up with the correct date...

Thus, the next Harold Camping is always getting warmed up in the Bible Math on-deck circle.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Predict something in the as-yet unknown future and then you have proved your system.


You want proof, and there's the way to get it.

.....

What I am talking about in the above quote is that there is a very real way to put your numbering systems to the test.
It is a way that has worked over and over for a long-long time.

What we do is take whatever numbering system you are promoting, be it a way to add up numbers that appear in the Bible, or add up Text locations, or use a dart board and a blind dart-tossing monkey, and see if under that system you can predict a single future date?

My point is that anyone can take a known date in history and find ways to end up at that date by doing Bible math.

As long as you know the answer at the start you can find many easy means to arrive at that answer.

But finding a result where you dont already know the answer?....Ahh that's different!


This is why we know that many religious prophets of the past are now believed to be "False Prophets", because their predictions did not come to p***.

The Jehovah's Witnesses have a False Prophet in their founder based on the past that things he predicted did not come to p***.

The Mormons too.

Even Newton!

In fact, any person that teaches their Bible Math can come up with a date for a future events needs to be put to the test like this so that we all can see if they know what they are talking about, or are just pulling dates out of their backside?

[asdf]

Originally Posted by johnd

Again... 665.666666666667 is puhretty close to the subject at hand would you not agree?

Not even slightly—for all the reasons alanmolstad articulated, as well as your failure to even bother to try to substantiate your calculations.

Originally Posted by asdf

Further down the rabbit hole we go...

Are you now positing yet a third type of year needed to make your calculations work—a Hebrew year, a 'Gentile' year, and a 'prophetic' year?

It's a pretty interesting hypothesis, I must say—but I'm still holding out judgment until I see the evidence laid out.

[johnd]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Let me say this again to be very clear...


All who do "Bible math" fail....

Oh they think they have the secret to understanding the 666 number, of the 70 weeks verse...but in the end, they FAIL



Mostly what you find is that the guy doing all the Bible math has a thing against the Jews, or the Catholics, or Obama, or Henry Kissinger and he works the numbers so that end up pointing to the Jews or Catholics as being the beast, or the false Christ predicted by the Bible.

Again I state that seeking the solution to the conditions set forth in Revelation 13:18 internally (in the Bible itself) is the only way to interpret the verse.

If we seek 666 the way we sought the Messiah in scripture we'd find all the signs point to a Jewish Temple builder in the last time who will renege on his promise to affirm the Mosaic covenant to the many and in the middle of the 70th Week put an end to the sacrifices there. Then and only then will we even know how far into the 70th Week man has come or when it began. The first two temples were destroyed 666 Hebrew / Prophetic years apart. There's your calculation, the wisdom (Solomon whose 666 talents of gold wage is two of the only four mentions of 666 in scripture).

[johnd]

The failed math comes from adding to or taking away from scriptures.

The Bible warns in all three major divisions (Law, Prophets, Writings) not to do so... but outside the Bible people go especially with 666.

The Bible also says test with scripture all things.

Do a search yourself in the Bible for 666.

And as far as Jew bashing or Catholic bashing I have only ever stated the truth.

Tell me, who else but a Jew would the Jewish people follow as the messiah?
John 5:39-40 (NIV)
39 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me,
40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.


John 5:43 (NIV)
43 I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him.
"if" ean in the Greek is better translated "though". The scripture prophesied the true Messiah would come in the name of his father (which Jesus did). Though he comes in his own name him (the false messiah) they (the Jews) would accept.

Tell me why would Jesus warn of a time of flight that one would even consider sabbath law?


Matthew 24:20 (NIV)
20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.


Sabbath law has never taken precedent over fight or flight in all Jewish history. Consider the campaign at Jericho. 7 days they marched, on the sabbath day they marched 7 times the wall fell and the battle ensued,

So why would Jesus even say such a thing?

Winter is obvious enough (just ask those stranded in airports and shelters in the recent cold storms). But the sabbath?

It is because the things that Jesus warns believers about the Jews who reject him but accept the false messiah will have no problem with that false messiah ascending to the temple claiming to be God.

And they will enforce sabbath law in the Holy Land.

So, who but a Jew will the Jewish people accept ascending to their venerated temple and even remotely consider the claim to be God incarnate? A Pope? A Protestant? A Muslim? Justin Bieber? Who???

I await your response oh naysayer with no scriptural backing.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by asdf

Further down the rabbit hole we go...

Are you now positing yet a third type of year needed to make your calculations work—a Hebrew year, a 'Gentile' year, and a 'prophetic' year?

It's a pretty interesting hypothesis, I must say—but I'm still holding out judgment until I see the evidence laid out.

This is a bump.