was lucifer created evil?

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

I just told you one.

So, are you saying, all babies are born little devils? Be careful my wive is watching and we have 6 little devils I mean angels.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

So, are you saying, all babies are born little devils? Be careful my wive is watching and we have 6 little devils I mean angels.

No, I mean the opposite: That all babies are angels when they are born. I have 4 of them myself.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

No, I mean the opposite: That all babies are angels when they are born. I have 4 of them myself.

You had to teach your children to lie? Mine did that all on their own.. I had to teach mine to tell the truth.. Even the BofM supports that lying is evil:

2 Nephi 9:34
Wo unto the liar, for he shall be thrust down to hell.

All my children were born with the stain of sin.. They needed Jesus from the their first breath.. IHS jim

So tell me how many lies mist a person tell to become a liar? I always thought it was ONE.. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by James Banta

You had to teach your children to lie?

They were pretty innocent when they were born. I think they only LATER learned about lying from the bad examples of other people--other kids or adults. I wonder if science will someday be able to hook up a polygraph to unborn fetuses and catch them lying while still in the womb? Doubtful.

All my children were born with the stain of sin..

Who stained them? I don't see God working that way.

They needed Jesus from the their first breath.

We all need Jesus from day one, but not because we were sinning in the womb.

So tell me how many lies mist a person tell to become a liar? I always thought it was ONE.. IHS jim

You are correct. But fetuses don't tell any lies.

[Libby]

Yeah, I don't believe babies can sin, either, although, we are all born with the propensity to sin.

But, I was wondering about the belief in a premortal life, where, supposedly, personalities were already forming. Was that a place of complete innocence? Or were "mistakes" made, even then? Many premortal spirits did choose to leave God's presence, so I would ***ume there is ability to sin there?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

They were pretty innocent when they were born. I think they only LATER learned about lying from the bad examples of other people--other kids or adults. I wonder if science will someday be able to hook up a polygraph to unborn fetuses and catch them lying while still in the womb? Doubtful.


Who stained them? I don't see God working that way.


We all need Jesus from day one, but not because we were sinning in the womb.


You are correct. But fetuses don't tell any lies.

So a new born is born thinking of others before themselves. They never cry when mom and dad are tired. As they get older, they share so readily with other children. When they do something wrong they never blame anyone else.. Come on, babies are born 100% natural. They respond ONLY to their needs, small children will not share what they believe is THEIRS, and then when they think they can avoid being in trouble they will lie.. They don't learn these attributes they have it born in them. They are evil from their very conception (Psalm 51:5)..

Who stained the children, they do it on their own because of the sin or our first father (Roman 5:12) We all need Jesus because we are all sinners.. Not all except babies and small children, The Word teaches that ALL HAVE SINNED (Romans 3:23).. No need to tell me how it is that I am wrong. Explain that to God.. Tell Him that His word is a lie and how pure even a new born is.. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yeah, I don't believe babies can sin, either, although, we are all born with the propensity to sin.

Correct, for the vast majority of humans. Those with scrambled brains who don't know what they are doing, really can't sin. Because in order to be able to sin, one must have the ability to tell right from wrong, and then deliberately do wrong.

But, I was wondering about the belief in a premortal life, where, supposedly, personalities were already forming. Was that a place of complete innocence? Or were "mistakes" made, even then? Many premortal spirits did choose to leave God's presence, so I would ***ume there is ability to sin there?

LDS doctrine is that just like down here, we reached a point in our development where we were able to know right and wrong. From that point on, some like Lucifer made bad choices.

[Libby]

James, I have eight grandchildren and they do share very willingly, a lot of the time (but, perhaps, they are exceptional children...)

Babies are by nature, self-centered, not because they are evil or sinful, but because it is a part of their survival mechanism. They are completely helpless and dependent on others. It's silly to think that they even have the capacity to think of anyone but themselves. They are not even really "thinking", as you and I know it. They are mostly a set of reflexes and responses.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by James Banta

So a new born is born thinking of others before themselves.

I have a feeling that newborns aren't aware of the commandment to put the needs of others before their own needs. You need to cut them some slack, Jim. They think simple thoughts such as "I hunger. I am in pain. I am scared. I feel safe and loved by my mom." Even JESUS had those kinds of thoughts. Please don't accuse Jesus of sinning. It's not a sin, regardless what some Calvinist tried to sell you on the subject.

They are evil from their very conception (Psalm 51:5)..

I disagree both with your claim and with your claim that the psalm teaches such a thing.

Who stained the children, they do it on their own because of the sin or our first father (Roman 5:12)

What if Paul was teaching in the context of people who had matured to a state of accountability for their actions? Fetuses don't sin, Jim. Although I bet that Dr. Kermit Gosnell, the house of horrors abortionist, would find it easier to sleep at night if he believed that all those babies he killed had already sinned and the wages of sin is death.

No need to tell me how it is that I am wrong. Explain that to God..

I only need to explain it to you. God already agrees with me.

Tell Him that His word is a lie and how pure even a new born is..

He already knows that babies are innocent, He is the one who revealed that precious knowledge. The idea that fetuses have already sinned even before they are born is a terrible lie, invented during the Dark Ages by folks like Calvin or Jonathan Edwards, and it probably makes satan smile every time someone believes that lie.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yeah, I don't believe babies can sin, either, although, we are all born with the propensity to sin.

What about the verses that say that we ALL sin? Do you deny those verses like all of the other parts of the Bible that you have thrown out?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

What about the verses that say that we ALL sin? Do you deny those verses like all of the other parts of the Bible that you have thrown out?

Which verses, Billy?

I haven't thrown anything out. I question a lot or I might put some thngs aside for awhile, but I haven't thrown anything out.

[Libby]

http://www.topicalbiblestudies.com/original-sin.php

Innocent or Guilty?
Are babies born innocent or guilty? Scripture says, “The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself” (Eze. 18:20). This verse plainly teaches that the righteous father will not be held guilty for his son’s sins. Likewise, a righteous son will not be guilty for his father’s sins. Instead, it is upon each individual person whether or not he or she lives a righteous or wicked life. “So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God” (Rom. 14:12).

We must understand that sin is spoken of in Scripture as something chosen, and not inherited. “Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness” (1 Jn. 3:4). We read in Scripture that there is a time in a person’s life when he or she “knows enough to refuse evil and choose good” (Isa. 7:15-16). Evil is something one chooses, not inherits.

Jesus promises, “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven” (Mt. 18:3). Does Jesus want us to convert and become like lawless, sinful children, who are destined for hell? Jesus promises us that we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven if we do not become like children (see also 1 Cor. 14:20). Children obviously represent innocence. This verse makes no sense if children are born totally depraved. Sin separates us from God (Isa. 59:2). If children are sinful, they are separated from God. But they are innocent. That’s why we have to become like them (innocent, teachable, trusting) to enter the kingdom of heaven. Why else would Jesus tell us to become like children?

Similarly, Jesus told His disciples on one occasion, “Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these” (Mt. 19:14). Again, think about what this verse would mean if children inherit sin. The kingdom of heaven would belong to those separated from God. Instead, since children are innocent, the kingdom of heaven belongs to the innocent- those who belong to God.

Scripture teaches us that, at death, “the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it” (Eccl. 12:7). The parents do not give the soul to a child, but God does. If God hates sin (Ps. 45:7), cannot look at sin (Isa. 59:2), and is the giver of the spirit, a newborn baby’s soul cannot be sinful.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Which verses, Billy?

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Psalm 14:3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt;
There is no one who does good, not even one.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Psalm 14:3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt;
There is no one who does good, not even one.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone

Matthew 19:14
14 But Jesus said, “Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

Were these special children? Or was he talking about all children?


Matthew 18:3 and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Matthew 19:14
14 But Jesus said, “Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

Were these special children? Or was he talking about all children?

Care to address the verses that I gave you or would you rather p***?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Care to address the verses that I gave you or would you rather p***?

We were speaking, specifically, about babies. The verses you provided may include them, in that we are all born with a propensity to sin, but I think the verses I provided show that even Jesus believed children were still innocent.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

We were speaking, specifically, about babies. The verses you provided may include them, in that we are all born with a propensity to sin, but I think the verses I provided show that even Jesus believed children were still innocent.

I guess your answer shows me that you don't want to address the verses that I gave you.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I guess your answer shows me that you don't want to address the verses that I gave you.

I guess your answer shows me that you focus on certain verses in the Bible and don't want to be bothered with those that contradict.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

James, I have eight grandchildren and they do share very willingly, a lot of the time (but, perhaps, they are exceptional children...)

Babies are by nature, self-centered, not because they are evil or sinful, but because it is a part of their survival mechanism. They are completely helpless and dependent on others. It's silly to think that they even have the capacity to think of anyone but themselves. They are not even really "thinking", as you and I know it. They are mostly a set of reflexes and responses.

There I am not disagreeing with you.. But the natural man the base nature in us all is against God.. Even throe BofM teaches that.. The Bible then teaches is that that natural birth is NOT enough to make us God's children. We need to have a new birth a spiritual birth.. The natural is very easy to see in babies. You are correct that is all they know, me, me, me. Those are the ways of the natural and must be overcome. They are thinking, if they were they couldn't cry when their bottom hurts, or when their stomach is empty. They react to that naturally not spiritually.

You must have exceptional children. I have never seen one that didn't say "MINE!" when another child wants a toy they they have.. Thee other makes their frustration know to everyone by crying.. Both are selfish. You are incredible that they didn't do that.. IHS jim

[Libby]

I'm not disagreeing with you about "natural man"...but it's not a sin to cry when you are hurting (not even for an adult, let alone a baby). I have already said that babies have the "propensity" towards sin, and they will sin, when they're much older, but as babies, even as small children, they are still innocent. Jesus believed they were, as well, as he said the Kingdom of God is made of up of such as these.

[James Banta]

[nrajeffreturns;143725]I have a feeling that newborns aren't aware of the commandment to put the needs of others before their own needs. You need to cut them some slack, Jim. They think simple thoughts such as "I hunger. I am in pain. I am scared. I feel safe and loved by my mom." Even JESUS had those kinds of thoughts. Please don't accuse Jesus of sinning. It's not a sin, regardless what some Calvinist tried to sell you on the subject.

How can you show that the Lord had these thoughts? I need a reference. What you want to believe has nothing to do with the real occurrences, regardless of what Jeff wants to believe..

I disagree both with your claim and with your claim that the psalm teaches such a thing.

The way you want things to be don't seem to be supported by scripture. I have shown you where my claims are supported in the Psalm. Eother explain why you are right through the scripture as I did or just don't bother to comment.

What if Paul was teaching in the context of people who had matured to a state of accountability for their actions? Fetuses don't sin, Jim. Although I bet that Dr. Kermit Gosnell, the house of horrors abortionist, would find it easier to sleep at night if he believed that all those babies he killed had already sinned and the wages of sin is death.

Ducks hatch ducks, Pigs give birth to pigs, Sinners bare sinners.. Everything after it's kind. We are sinners because of the fall. Each of us has that mark on us. Weather you see it or none we have all fallen short of the glory of God, we have all sinned, even the new born.. How ever, just in case you didn't know God said He is the one who will repay (Romans 12:19). punishing for sin it not Dr. Gosnell place anymore than it is yours. All who are born are sinners subject to death the same an all people.. Many a child born into this world suffer that penalty long before their first year on this world.

I only need to explain it to you. God already agrees with me.

He does? CFR

He already knows that babies are innocent, He is the one who revealed that precious knowledge. The idea that fetuses have already sinned even before they are born is a terrible lie, invented during the Dark Ages by folks like Calvin or Jonathan Edwards, and it probably makes satan smile every time someone believes that lie.

He does? Where is this "precious knowledge" Again CFR.. The only place I know where the subject it taught in the Bible is Psalm 51 as I have quoted it.. "In sin was I conceived".. All you have given me is your personal beliefs on the subject. You didn't even quote LDS scripture.. I guess you know I put as much stock in them as you do the creeds.. But LDS demand that they believe the Bible.. I guess you do as long as it agrees with LDS doctrine.. Christian believe the WHOLE Bible and base our doctrine on what in taught there. Our disagreements is when you abandon the scripture in favor of what men (GAs) teach.. The Bible teaches truth, men teach lies, it is what come natural to them.. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by James Banta

How can you show that the Lord had these thoughts?

By quoting from the Bible. Is that up to your standards?

I need a reference.

John 19:28

The way you want things to be don't seem to be supported by scripture.

I think John 19:28 supports me and refutes you.

We are sinners because of the fall.

Not really, but I can see how centuries of Dark-ages bad doctrine can be hard for the modern Christian to jettison.

He does? Where is this "precious knowledge"

Why, it's in the Book of Mormon. Have you forgotten what was revealed to Mormon about the innocence of little children? Didn't you used to be a TBM who had studied LDS doctrine?

Because they cannot sin, they have no need of repentance, neither baptism. Adam’s original transgression has no claim as a result of the atonement of Jesus Christ. Mormon declared the practice of baptizing little children to be a “solemn mockery before God” (Moro. 8:9), for repentance and baptism apply to those who are “accountable and capable of committing sin” (Moro. 8:10).

Because all children who die before the age of accountability are pure, innocent, and wholly sin-free, they are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven (see D&C 137:10; Mosiah 3:18). Understanding the special status of little children before God, because of their pure and innocent nature, brings understanding of the Lord’s commandment to “repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in [His] name” (3 Ne. 11:37). The childlike qualities the Lord had reference to are developed by yielding to “the enticings of the Holy Spirit,” so as to become “submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.” Truly, such a person “becometh a saint” as spoken by Mosiah (Mosiah 3:19).


https://www.lds.org/general-conferen...ldren?lang=eng

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by James Banta

. We are sinners because of the fall.

That is a false doctrine, James. The Bible states we are all absolved of the condemnation of the Fall due to Christ's Atonement--which is why He is called the Redeemer:


Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Free gift to all mankind, James. All are released from the condemnation of the Fall--all have the opportunity to inherit eternal life now. If that condemnation is still with mankind--then no one can inherit life.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

That is a false doctrine, James. The Bible states we are all absolved of the condemnation of the Fall due to Christ's Atonement--which is why He is called the Redeemer:


Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Free gift to all mankind, James. All are released from the condemnation of the Fall--all have the opportunity to inherit eternal life now. If that condemnation is still with mankind--then no one can inherit life.

Define justification.

[dberrie2000]

[quote]Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---That is a false doctrine, James. The Bible states we are all absolved of the condemnation of the Fall due to Christ's Atonement--which is why He is called the Redeemer:


Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Free gift to all mankind, James. All are released from the condemnation of the Fall--all have the opportunity to inherit eternal life now. If that condemnation is still with mankind--then no one can inherit life.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Define justification.

Definition of JUSTIFY


1--a : to prove or show to be just, right, or reasonable

b (1) : to show to have had a sufficient legal reason (2) : to qualify (oneself) as a surety by taking oath to the ownership of sufficient property

2--a archaic : to administer justice to

b archaic : absolve