Intermediate State/Purgatory

[tealblue]

Originally Posted by Dmarie

Greetings & Blessings.

Columcille, you are not being very nice, nor respectful....and a whole paragraph at that. I will refer you to read Jill's latest post.

In regards to the Intermediate State, so far you have not presented any specific Scriptural support or basis for this teaching. You have listed and provided "points" in an effort to try and prove a "concept", an "agnostic reticence." I have addressed and answered all of your points in my posts, and by your own words...
"I don't have to explain away the Intermediate State, I only state that there is one."

Your above statement is clear, and I think that you've explained this as fully as is possible...which is not.

Blessings...Dmarie

I first apologize for highjacking this thread. I have been in the process for the past few months relocating overseas and have not had the time.

I realize there are a few referances that seem to point to the idea of absence from the body and present with the lord. Well who says that purgatory wouldn't still be in the presence of jesus. As far as I know any non presence of god in general would be hell. Becasue thats what hell is.

Here are two facts I would like to share with you.
1. There will be no suffering in Heaven.
2. Nothing inpure will enter into heaven.

1Cor 3

14If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. 15But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved,* but only as through fire.

Here are a couple of facts about this p***age.

1. The person descibed here is not on earth because its talking about judgement.

2. The person is not in heaven because its describing suffering loss and still being saved. And we know there will be no suffering in heaven.

So if this verse is desribing some sort of state thats not on earth or in heaven where(what state) are they?

[Dmarie]

Originally Posted by tealblue

I first apologize for highjacking this thread. I have been in the process for the past few months relocating overseas and have not had the time.

I realize there are a few referances that seem to point to the idea of absence from the body and present with the lord. Well who says that purgatory wouldn't still be in the presence of jesus. As far as I know any non presence of god in general would be hell. Becasue thats what hell is.

Here are two facts I would like to share with you.
1. There will be no suffering in Heaven.
2. Nothing inpure will enter into heaven.

1Cor 3

14If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. 15But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved,* but only as through fire.

Here are a couple of facts about this p***age.

1. The person descibed here is not on earth because its talking about judgement.

2. The person is not in heaven because its describing suffering loss and still being saved. And we know there will be no suffering in heaven.

So if this verse is desribing some sort of state thats not on earth or in heaven where(what state) are they?

Hi tb, and welcome back.

I will refer you to reading my previous posts, (if you have not done so already). The p***age you are referring to is specifically speaking of our "works" being burned up, or not. It is not speaking of our bodies.

Blessings...Dmarie

[tealblue]

Originally Posted by Dmarie

Hi tb, and welcome back.

I will refer you to reading my previous posts, (if you have not done so already). The p***age you are referring to is specifically speaking of our "works" being burned up, or not. It is not speaking of our bodies.

Blessings...Dmarie

Yes I do agree that its talking about our works being burned up. The verse though is specifically talking about "that day" which is judgement day. If its talking about our works being burned up and will be suffer loss says that says to me during this suffering must be in some state that is not on earth living and not in heaven. Where or when do you say this suffering for our works happen?

[Dmarie]

Originally Posted by tealblue

Yes I do agree that its talking about our works being burned up. The verse though is specifically talking about "that day" which is judgement day. If its talking about our works being burned up and will be suffer loss says that says to me during this suffering must be in some state that is not on earth living and not in heaven. Where or when do you say this suffering for our works happen?

Greetings & Blessings.

"For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad." (2Cor.5:10)

When this Scripture speaks of "suffering loss" it is speaking specifically of those things (rewards) that we will not "receive." Again, it is not speaking of a physical suffering pertaining to our bodies to be suffered somewhere in some chamber apart from Christ. If we are Christ's, we are Christ's, and we are with Him where He is. I point again to the Scripture "We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." (2Cor.5:8)
What did Christ say as He was dying to the thief on the cross? "***uredly, I say to you,today you will be with me in paradise." (Luke 23:43)
If we are Christ's, our spirits/souls will be with Christ awaiting the time when our physical bodies will put on "incorruption" to be reunited with our spiritual bodies. (*2Cor. 15:51-55, 2Cor.15:42,44, Rom.8:11)

"Where" we appear when this judgement happens, the Scriptures speak of "...the judgement seat of Christ...." that is, where Christ is.
"For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us."

So whether we "receive" those things (rewards), or we do not receive ("suffer loss"), we are with Christ. who will "...appear in the presence of God for us." where we will either gain or "suffer loss" of our "rewards". This is not speaking of the loss of our salvation, nor again, is it speaking of our having to suffer loss and having to be further purified somewhere in some chamber apart from Christ to be later reunited with Him.

Also tb, thank you for appealing to Scripture.

Blessings...Dmarie

[tealblue]

Originally Posted by Dmarie

Greetings & Blessings.

"For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad." (2Cor.5:10)

When this Scripture speaks of "suffering loss" it is speaking specifically of those things (rewards) that we will not "receive." Again, it is not speaking of a physical suffering pertaining to our bodies to be suffered somewhere in some chamber apart from Christ. If we are Christ's, we are Christ's, and we are with Him where He is. I point again to the Scripture "We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." (2Cor.5:8)
What did Christ say as He was dying to the thief on the cross? "***uredly, I say to you,today you will be with me in paradise." (Luke 23:43)
If we are Christ's, our spirits/souls will be with Christ awaiting the time when our physical bodies will put on "incorruption" to be reunited with our spiritual bodies. (*2Cor. 15:51-55, 2Cor.15:42,44, Rom.8:11)

There is much debate where jesus went for 3 days until his resurection. So when he speaks of "today" does he really mean today as in a real calender day or was he just trying to convey the fact that the thief will be going to heaven.

"Where" we appear when this judgement happens, the Scriptures speak of "...the judgement seat of Christ...." that is, where Christ is.
"For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us."

So whether we "receive" those things (rewards), or we do not receive ("suffer loss"), we are with Christ. who will "...appear in the presence of God for us." where we will either gain or "suffer loss" of our "rewards". This is not speaking of the loss of our salvation, nor again, is it speaking of our having to suffer loss and having to be further purified somewhere in some chamber apart from Christ to be later reunited with Him.



Also tb, thank you for appealing to Scripture.

Blessings...Dmarie

Rev 21

27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

2 cor 15

53For that which is corruptible must clothe itself with incorruptibility, and that which is mortal must clothe itself with immortality

So, If nothing impure shall enter into heaven unlean according to rev 21 and that what is corruptable must me made incorruptable according to 2 cor then obviously being made incorruptable must be happening before one enters the gates of heaven. Yes this probably still happens in the presence of the lord but must be according to scripture be outside the gates of heaven.

In reallity if this wasn't specifically a Roman Catholic doctrine having an intermediate state where a soul is purified before walking thu the pearly gates this would not be that hot of a topic. It would just be something of debate.

[Dmarie]

Originally Posted by tealblue

Rev 21

27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

2 cor 15

53For that which is corruptible must clothe itself with incorruptibility, and that which is mortal must clothe itself with immortality

So, If nothing impure shall enter into heaven unlean according to rev 21 and that what is corruptable must me made incorruptable according to 2 cor then obviously being made incorruptable must be happening before one enters the gates of heaven. Yes this probably still happens in the presence of the lord but must be according to scripture be outside the gates of heaven.

In reallity if this wasn't specifically a Roman Catholic doctrine having an intermediate state where a soul is purified before walking thu the pearly gates this would not be that hot of a topic. It would just be something of debate.

Greetings.

"In reality...," whether this doctrine be RC or mormon or hindu or whatever, it would still be "...just as much something of debate."

Yes, I do agree with the clear teaching of Scripture when it says that only purity and perfection shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, which is why I also believe in the Bible's clear teaching of justification...when Christ imputes His righteousness to us when we become a child of God.
God gave us His Son to be that perfect sin offering for us..."He who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him." (2Cor.5:21) When a person comes to Christ through faith, the spirit of that individual which was dead in its tresp***es is immediately made alive by the Spirit of Christ, unto Christ. (Ephesians 1:13,14) "And you, being dead in your tresp***es and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all tresp***es having wiped out the requirements that was against us, and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross." (Col.2:13,14)

tb, do you believe that Christ's perfect sacrifice is perfectly sufficient to perfectly cleanse us from"all" of our sins, thus saving us...perfectly? From your previous statement, it seems that this belief is lacking. It seems that you believe that He saves us in stages, and does not save us completely.

This is your statement from a previous post:
"There is much debate where Jesus went for 3 days until His resurrection. So when He speaks of "today" does He really mean today as in a real calender day or was He just trying to convey the fact that the thief will be going to heaven."

How could you say this tb? Do you really think Jesus was only conveying this to a suffering and dying man desperately looking to Him for hope and redemption???
When Christ said to His diciples that He would be in the grave 3 days and 3 nights did He have to tell them and explain to them that this would be 3 literal calender days?

***"Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit, soul and body be preserved blameless until the comming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it."*** Please, do not missunderstand this with our sanctification. God's Spirit within us is teaching us to live a life holy to Him. Yes, while we are still in these bodies we continue to sin (and I am not minimizing this in the least), but we are covered, we are forgiven, and we are "...made the righteousness of God in Him." Again, when we come to Christ through faith, He makes us alive and seals us with His Holy Spirit...He saves us from the condemnation to come. "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus." (Rom.8:1) So when we die, whatever sins we may have committed, whatever requirements against us, have been "paid for" by the blood of Christ, He "...having nailed it to the cross."..."He condemned sin in the flesh, ("HIS FLESH") and "He died to sin once for all...." (Rom.6:10).

So when we die, we die in Christ and to Christ...we are Christ's. Never to die apart from Him...in any way.
"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1Cor.17)


Blessings...Dmarie

[tealblue]

Originally Posted by Dmarie

Greetings.

"In reality...," whether this doctrine be RC or mormon or hindu or whatever, it would still be "...just as much something of debate."

Yes, I do agree with the clear teaching of Scripture when it says that only purity and perfection shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, which is why I also believe in the Bible's clear teaching of justification...when Christ imputes His righteousness to us when we become a child of God.
God gave us His Son to be that perfect sin offering for us..."He who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him." (2Cor.5:21) When a person comes to Christ through faith, the spirit of that individual which was dead in its tresp***es is immediately made alive by the Spirit of Christ, unto Christ. (Ephesians 1:13,14) "And you, being dead in your tresp***es and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all tresp***es having wiped out the requirements that was against us, and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross." (Col.2:13,14)

So basically you are saying that entering heaven in a pure is only in an imputed way?

tb, do you believe that Christ's perfect sacrifice is perfectly sufficient to perfectly cleanse us from"all" of our sins, thus saving us...perfectly? From your previous statement, it seems that this belief is lacking. It seems that you believe that He saves us in stages, and does not save us completely.

I believe he saves us thu infused righeousness not imputed. Basically salvation is the result of him making us righteous.

This is your statement from a previous post:
"There is much debate where Jesus went for 3 days until His resurrection. So when He speaks of "today" does He really mean today as in a real calender day or was He just trying to convey the fact that the thief will be going to heaven."

How could you say this tb? Do you really think Jesus was only conveying this to a suffering and dying man desperately looking to Him for hope and redemption???
When Christ said to His diciples that He would be in the grave 3 days and 3 nights did He have to tell them and explain to them that this would be 3 literal calender days?

He told the thief that he would be in paradise WITH him today. You want to use that as a proof text. He told his apostles that he would he would be in the grave for 3 days. You seem to be picking and choosing what is literal and which is not.

***"Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit, soul and body be preserved blameless until the comming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it."*** Please, do not missunderstand this with our sanctification. God's Spirit within us is teaching us to live a life holy to Him. Yes, while we are still in these bodies we continue to sin (and I am not minimizing this in the least), but we are covered, we are forgiven, and we are "...made the righteousness of God in Him." Again, when we come to Christ through faith, He makes us alive and seals us with His Holy Spirit...He saves us from the condemnation to come. "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus." (Rom.8:1) So when we die, whatever sins we may have committed, whatever requirements against us, have been "paid for" by the blood of Christ, He "...having nailed it to the cross."..."He condemned sin in the flesh, ("HIS FLESH") and "He died to sin once for all...." (Rom.6:10).

For whatever reason having your sins paid for completely BUT still having any sort of spiritual purification leads you to think that some how dimishing Christs sacrafise is beyond me. You believe that we all don't recieve the same reward right? Well how come we all don't get the same reward? Going by your idea of salvation we are all judged righeous and should have the same reward. The bible is clear that our reward can be burned up.

So when we die, we die in Christ and to Christ...we are Christ's. Never to die apart from Him...in any way.
"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1Cor.17)


Blessings...Dmarie

In reallity I think that the main issue is the idea of imputed and infused righteousness. Because however you view this changes the whole nature of how we read scripture. I think the main objection for evangelicals is that with that idea of infused righeousness it seems unatainable in a complete perfect way. I think this comes from a calvanist way of thinking in my opinion. Jesus was asked how to attain eternal life by the young rich ruler. His response was obey the commandments. The ruler responded by asking which ones. Jesus says ALL OF THEM. Are you so posative that Jesus was only trying to convey the point to the ruler that obeying his commandments(With the help of God) was impossible.

[Dmarie]

Originally Posted by tealblue

I first apologize for highjacking this thread. I have been in the process for the past few months relocating overseas and have not had the time.

I realize there are a few referances that seem to point to the idea of absence from the body and present with the lord. Well who says that purgatory wouldn't still be in the presence of jesus. As far as I know any non presence of god in general would be hell. Becasue thats what hell is.

Here are two facts I would like to share with you.
1. There will be no suffering in Heaven.
2. Nothing inpure will enter into heaven.

1Cor 3

14If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. 15But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved,* but only as through fire.

Here are a couple of facts about this p***age.

1. The person descibed here is not on earth because its talking about judgement.

2. The person is not in heaven because its describing suffering loss and still being saved. And we know there will be no suffering in heaven.

So if this verse is desribing some sort of state thats not on earth or in heaven where(what state) are they?

Greetings tb.

When we are "saved" we are immediately "sealed" with God's Holy Spirit:

"In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritence...." (Ephesians 1:13,14)

God imputes the righteousness of Christ on us because "having believed" in the perfect and sufficient sacrifice of His Son, God now, when He looks upon us, sees us through the pure and perfect sacrifice of His Son, who is now our righteousness--"sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise who is the guarantee of our inheritence...."
We are now saved unto good works to do for His glory and kingdom, and these works will be judged by their motives either to be "burned up" or not. These works will either produce good fruit yielding for us "treasure" in heaven which we are told to "build up" or we will loose these treasures (rewards) only to be "saved as through fire." Or, another way of saying this is that our possible rewards will be burnt up, but we will be "saved by the skin of our teeth", but we will "suffer loss" of our rewards.

Blessings...Dmarie