God as Spirit or flesh and bone

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Libby

I'm not sure Jeff would agree that children don't sin...only that they are not accountable until around age eight.

Yes, that is pretty much it--what I believe is that 8 is the minimum age at which a person could safely be considered to be accountable. The actual age will very from person to person, depending individual circumstances such as intelligence, upbringing, environments, etc. For a retarded person from a broken home in an amoral 3rd-world country, a sufficient grasp of good and evil might not be reached until 20 or 40 or 60. A sociopath might never reach that state. That is why we try to only baptize people who seem to meet a minimum degree of accountability for their actions. IMO, some kids are precocious enough to reach that state before they are 8. But we wait until at least 8.

I think Jeff and I agree that babies don't sin (and my belief is mostly from observation....I just don't think one can call anything a new baby does "sin").

Yes. Not just by observation, though--you can arrive at that conclusion merely by common sense, too.

But, I think they do start sinning quite young (long before the age of three).

IMO, only in a few rare cases.

I think you're right that we can all agree that children are not "accountable" until they really understand what "sin" means and are old enough to turn to Christ.

If we ALL agree on the truth of that, then I am glad.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Yes, that is pretty much it--what I believe is that 8 is the minimum age at which a person could safely be considered to be accountable.
If we ALL agree on the truth of that, then I am glad.

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

I think the very definition of the word sin helps us figure out who sins and who does not. If sin is the knowing, deliberate disobedience to God's will, then we sin when we understand that doing something would be wrong, and we deliberately do it anyway. In order to sin, you have to be able to sin. Babies can't sin because they lack both the requirements:

They don't understand what God's will is yet.
Therefore anything they did or failed to do was not rebellion against God on purpose.

If we understand the above, then it helps us figure out the group of people the NT was referring to where it says that all have sinned. It has to exclude babies, just like "ALL" excludes Jesus, because although Jesus knew right from wrong, good and evil, He never deliberately rebelled against God.

If I get too much change back at the store and I don't realize it, I took money that didn't belong to me, but I didn't do it on purpose, so it's not a sin. If I later realize my "sin" and I fail to return the money, THEN it's a sin.

So do children under the age of 8 know right from wrong?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So do children under the age of 8 know right from wrong?

Some most likely do.

Do ALL babies under 1 year old know right from wrong?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Some most likely do.

Do ALL babies under 1 year old know right from wrong?

I don't think children in general are fully aware of right and wrong. But you didn't address the point I was making, you said "If sin is the knowing, deliberate disobedience to God's will. . .".

So do children under 8 sin or not?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I don't think children in general are fully aware of right and wrong.

How fully is a 1-week-old baby aware of right and wrong?

So do children under 8 sin or not?

Some most likely do. Are you saying that ALL of them do? I guess you HAVE to say that, since you take the verse "all have sinned" to an irrationally literal extent.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

How fully is a 1-week-old baby of right and wrong?

As I said I don't think children--which would include infants--are fully aware of right and wrong.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Some most likely do.

If children under the age of 8 are aware of right and wrong and sin what happens to them since they are not baptized?

[nrajeffreturns]

Their sins get remitted when they do get baptized.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Their sins get remitted when they do get baptized.

What happens if they die prior to getting baptized?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

What happens if they die prior to getting baptized?

Someone who isn't dead yet can baptize them by proxy in a temple, of course!

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Someone who isn't dead yet can baptize them by proxy in a temple, of course!

So you believe that some children under 8 require baptism?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So you believe that some children under 8 require baptism?

I believe that everyone who reaches a state of accountability and then sins, needs baptism, sooner or later. That's what's so great about LDS doctrine.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

I believe that everyone who reaches a state of accountability and then sins, needs baptism, sooner or later. That's what's so great about LDS doctrine.

http://mormon.org/faq/baptism-beliefs
". . .Immersion is symbolic of the death of a person’s sinful life and the rebirth into a spiritual life, dedicated to the service of God and His children. It is also symbolic of death and resurrection. (See Romans 6:3-6) Little children are redeemed through the mercy of Jesus Christ. They are “alive in Christ” and cannot sin. They do not need baptism until they understand the difference between right and wrong. The Lord has revealed that children should be baptized at eight years of age. (See Book of Mormon, Moroni 8:8-24; Doctrine and Covenants 29:46-47, 68:27). . ."

[alanmolstad]

The age of accountability means you reach the age where you are held accountable for your sins...it doesn't mean you start to sin at only that age...

There is a Bible verse that talks about how God "overlooked " the actions of people who for one reason or another were in the dark of their sins

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So you believe that some children under 8 require baptism?

Children under the age of 8 do not need baptism, if they die before that age.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Children under the age of 8 do not need baptism, if they die before that age.

Do children under 8 years old sin?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Do children under 8 years old sin?

Pretty sure the ones under 8 DAYS old don't sin, so that's all we need to know in order to conclude that it's wrong to say that "all have sinned" includes them.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Pretty sure the ones under 8 DAYS old don't sin, so that's all we need to know in order to conclude that it's wrong to say that "all have sinned" includes them.

But what about the question that I actually asked you?

Do children under 8 years old sin?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But what about the question that I actually asked you?

Do children under 8 years old sin?

Either it's wrong to say that "all have sinned" includes all infants and fetuses, or it's right to say it. That's the bottom line.

Which side are you on regarding this issue?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Either it's wrong to say that "all have sinned" includes all infants and fetuses, or it's right to say it. That's the bottom line.

Which side are you on regarding this issue?

Why are you dodging my question?

Do children under 8 years old sin?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Why are you dodging my question?

Do children under 8 years old sin?

They sin.....but God is just and judges them accordingly...overlooking the sins of they who know not what they do.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

They sin.....but God is just and judges them accordingly...overlooking the sins of they who know not what they do.

Do you really believe that God "overlooks" sin, any sin? All it cost to bring those who don't understand the difference between right and wrong is the blood of our dear Lord Jesus. I wouldn't call that "overlooking" their sin.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

yes there is a bible verse that talks about god overlooking sins

[BigJulie]

Proof that these debates just go round and round---same stuff, over and over again.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Proof that these debates just go round and round---same stuff, over and over again.

When someone (A criminal) comments the same crime over and over again do they not get the same lecture from the police and the judge? Of course! Have you given up the crime of worshiping three different Gods? As long as you haven;t the questions as to why not and the lectures on why it is wrong will continue.. IHS jim