Awww, Shucks!

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

.....using Protestant soteriology.

who here teaches this teaching?

what poster here suggests this idea?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

No, you're not understanding. It also gives the reason why babies don't sin...the one I explained twice, about Adam and Eve not sinning until they ate from the tree of "good and evil" and understood the difference.

thats not really what it says in genesis.....

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Not true.

We're done with this, Billy. You are simply flailing about, trying to make yourself appear to be correct. Anyone who reads this exchange with unbiased eyes will see what you have been doing. You are a master at twisting things about, trying to make it fit your own belief system.

I have asked you multiple times now to give me a verse so we can look at it. Are you ever going to give it to me or not?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Not true.

We're done with this, Billy. You are simply flailing about, trying to make yourself appear to be correct. Anyone who reads this exchange with unbiased eyes will see what you have been doing. You are a master at twisting things about, trying to make it fit your own belief system.

Anyone reading this exchange can only conclude that you have failed to provide me with any verse that supports your position. While at the same time they will see that you ignore clear verses that refute your position.

[alanmolstad]

The story of the sin of Adam is much like how we all go into this...

before the law came to Adam he was alive....it's not that he could not sin, its just that because he did not know of the Law yet and the Law was not over him , all his sins would be 'overlooked"

God overlooked my own sins as a child too!

but once the Law comes to us things change...

The flesh in us, sees a chance within the context of the law to sin, we desire to sin and so sin springs to life in us and we die...

this is what happened to Adam, and what Paul talks about...

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

If you ***ume "all" refers literally to every human being who was ever conceived or who will ever be conceived, including aborted babies and baby Jesus,

No the Bible teaches also that Jesus was without sin.....

Thus all have sinned, as the bible states, and it also states that Jesus did not sin....so the Bible makes sure it shows us what it is talking about...


Jesus did not sin.....EVER!

So all have sinned except for the one exception of Jesus as taught in the Bible....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

No the Bible teaches also that Jesus was without sin.....

Thus all have sinned, as the bible states, and it also states that Jesus did not sin....so the Bible makes sure it shows us what it is talking about...


Jesus did not sin.....EVER!

So all have sinned except for the one exception of Jesus as taught in the Bible....

why is this bible idea so hard to trust?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

who here teaches this teaching?
what poster here suggests this idea?

Maybe all of you, or maybe some or none. Let's find out.

Do you believe that it's possible for people who never accepted Jesus before they died, to be saved?
Do you believe that those who died without the ability or opportunity to hear the gospel, repent, and accept Jesus, will get that chance after they die?

Now see where your answers to those questions take you in light of what I said:

Using Protestant soteriology, if a baby has sinned, the only way it could have made it to heaven would be by repenting before death. But if the Bible teaches that David's baby went to heaven after living for less than a month, then that baby must have committed no sins, since the baby failed to repent of any sins before it died.

You see, the genius of LDS doctrine on this issue is that babies who die in infancy are innocent of any sin, and the fact that they never accepted Jesus while alive can't keep them from salvation anyway since they will get that chance in the hereafter. Which makes LDS soteriology the only one in Christianity that I know of, that is fair to those babies.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Using Protestant soteriology, if a baby has sinned, the only way it could have made it to heaven would be by repenting before death. But if the Bible teaches that David's baby went to heaven after living for less than a month, then that baby must have committed no sins, since the baby failed to repent of any sins before it died.

Other than the example about David's child the Bible is silent on this issue. The issue in the case of a baby who dies is not sin but accountability for that sin. Christians do not give a firm answer one way or the other because as I said before the Bible is silent on this issue with the exception above. You just gave us a straw man argument Jeff because no Christian that I have ever heard says that a one month is capable of repenting and accepting Christ. You just made that one up didn't you?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Other than the example about David's child the Bible is silent on this issue.

One example should be all you need to establish a precedent.

The issue in the case of a baby who dies is not sin but accountability for that sin.

If a person is not at a state of accountability, then nothing he does should be called a sin, since the definition of sin includes the person being aware that the bad thing he is doing is wrong. The two necessary ingredients are the knowledge that it's the wrong the thing to do, and then deliberately doing it anyway. Any act that didn't have both of those ingredients isn't a sin. If a 4-month-old baby smacks you on the head, it can't be a sin because the baby didn't know that it's wrong to hit people, and the baby didn't hit you on purpose either.

You just gave us a straw man argument Jeff because no Christian that I have ever heard says that a one month is capable of repenting and accepting Christ.

Exactly. That is MY point. Now let common sense and logic rule your mind for a minute: Since we all agree that NO one month-old baby is capable of repenting and accepting Christ, then you have a problem. Do you believe that salvation comes to people who didn't accept Christ before they died?
The Athanasian Creed states that anyone who wants to be saved MUST faithfully believe all the dogmas of Trinitarianism, and that anyone who doesn't faithfully believe all the dogmas of Trinitarianism cannot be saved.

The LDS don't have that dilemma in their doctrines. But you do. What's your answer?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

One example should be all you need to establish a precedent.

Let's look at that and see what precedent has been set by what we know. Since this is the only verse that I am aware of that speaks on this issue what can we conclude? That the children of believers who die at an early age will be saved. Not a single verse ever says that the children of non believes who die at a young age are saved. So are you willing to accept as precedent that the children of believers will be saved and the children of non believers will not be saved?

[nrajeffreturns]

No, it's not saying that if you're an unbeliever and your baby dies it will have to go to hell.
ALL babies, whether their parents are believers or unbelievers, are unable to repent, therefore they are unable to sin, therefore they do not sin. It doesn't matter who your parents are. That doesn't magically make you saved or unsaved.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

No, it's not saying that if you're an unbeliever and your baby dies it will have to go to hell.

But the only verse that we have is that of a baby of a believer who appears to go to heaven. We have no verse whatsoever that says the babies of unbelievers who die go to heaven. So is that the precedent that you want to take home from this one p***age?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But the only verse that we have is that of a baby of a believer who appears to go to heaven. We have no verse whatsoever that says the babies of unbelievers who die go to heaven. So is that the precedent that you want to take home from this one p***age?

That's like saying that since we have no verse whatsoever that says that people named Billyray will go to heaven, we should conclude that you aren't going to heaven.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

That's like saying that since we have no verse whatsoever that says that people named Billyray will go to heaven, we should conclude that you aren't going to heaven.

That is not the same at all and you know it. There are examples in the Bible where a child was saved physically simply because he lived with a believer and a child was killed simply because he did not live with a believer.

[alanmolstad]

actually I notice a lot of posting, and very few Bible verses listed to support the views listed.

If you have a teaching that has a clear bible verse or two to support it, then your view is worth listing.

But if you got no support in the bible for what you are saying then I got to tell you right now...
"YOU ARE MAKING STUFF UP"

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Maybe all of you, or maybe some or none. Let's find out.

Do you believe that it's possible for people who never accepted Jesus before they died, to be saved?

.

The Bible at no place teaches that people go to hell only because they never learned about Jesus...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVXMUDC_pw8

What we are told is that even the unbeliever has around them at all times, the "proof" that they need to believe and draw close to God.

This is why all people are held as guilty because all have had all the proof they need at all times all around them.

So a person needs to respond to the light they receive...
The calling of GOD goes out...He is drawing all men to himself....But we need to respond to that calling, to respond to the light we are given, and that light will lead us to the brighter light of Jesus.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

But if the Bible teaches that David's baby went to heaven after living for less than a month, then that baby must have committed no sins, since the baby failed to repent of any sins before it died.

.

The Bible does not tell inform us about the sins or lack of sins of the child....

thus the answer given by Paul is still the answer for us about the fate of all children who die.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

The Bible at no place teaches that people go to hell only because they never learned about Jesus...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVXMUDC_pw8

What we are told is that even the unbeliever has around them at all times, the "proof" that they need to believe and draw close to God.

This is why all people are held as guilty because all have had all the proof they need at all times all around them.

So a person needs to respond to the light they receive...
The calling of GOD goes out...He is drawing all men to himself....But we need to respond to that calling, to respond to the light we are given, and that light will lead us to the brighter light of Jesus.

I noticed that you didn't quote any Bible verses to support this post, so it's safe to conclude that you're making things up, right?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

I noticed that you didn't quote any Bible verses to support this post, so it's safe to conclude that you're making things up, right?

Actually I am providing a synopsis of what is on the video that I also provide the link to.....but you would have already know that had you bothered to watch the video clip

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

see, this is the 'safe' thinking way at work...

It makes you feel safe to think that God was just sitting around and noticed that in the future some people believed in him anyway, so he decided to base his predestination on the people he saw in the future believing.


This makes God into a very lazy being........

This is an example of people making their personal god in their own image.

This is an example of a god that is simply 'reacting" to what men are doing...



It's also not what the bible is teaching.
The reason it's not what the Bible is teaching is it makes the "predestination" of people by God happen after the "foreknowledge" of God informs Him of future events that he just simply then 'reacts" to.

Thats not the god of the Bible....

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


Could you explain the fact the scriptures have God giving His grace to those who obey Him--all who obey Him, past, present, and future---and it not be a reaction of God to the future actions of those who have faith in Christ?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Could you explain the fact the scriptures have God giving His grace to those who obey Him--all who obey Him, past, present, and future---and it not be a reaction of God to the future actions of those who have faith in Christ?

God also gives grace to unbelievers in many ways but salvation takes place when you place your faith in Christ.

[dberrie2000]

dberrie----Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


Could you explain the fact the scriptures have God giving His grace to those who obey Him--all who obey Him, past, present, and future---and it not be a reaction of God to the future actions of those who have faith in Christ?

Originally Posted by Billyray

God also gives grace to unbelievers in many ways

But not His grace unto eternal life--that goes to those who obey God.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

But not His grace unto eternal life--that goes to those who obey God.

It is clear that salvation goes to those who place their faith in Christ for salvation. This is not earned by doing works.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

It is clear that salvation goes to those who place their faith in Christ for salvation. .

Do babies who die when they are under 1 week old have the ability to place their faith in Christ and thus be saved? How can they accept the gospel unless they can hear it? And how can they hear it if there wasn't a teacher to preach it to them while they were alive?