Born spiritually dead

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by theway

Why in the world would you think that I believe that God will punish you for sins you have not done?

That's just silly Billy.

What sins are charged to those who have had ALL of their sins PAID for in full by Christ?

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

And today, while at the store, I paid the price for some Toaster Strudels.

I also paid for some milk, and for some Yakisoba (I learned to love them while I was in Japan).


Anyway, I did state that while at the store, I paid the price for some Toaster Strudels. Should you jump to the unwarranted conclusion that I paid ONLY for Toaster Strudels?

Did I say "while at the store, I paid the price for some Toaster Strudels ONLY" ??

If I were to say "while at the store, I paid the price for some milk" would it be right to conclude that milk was the only thing I paid for while I was at the store?

See the eisegesis going on with "Christ shed His blood for the church" ?? You have no good, sound reason to conclude that He shed His blood ONLY for the church. The reason is that the word "only" DOESN'T APPEAR IN THE TEXT.

Now suppose I wrote a book, and in one chapter of the book I said "While at the store, I paid the price for some Toaster Strudels."

And in a later chapter of the book, I also said "While at the store, I paid to price for every item in the store."

And then someone came along--someone who claimed to love my book and to be a believer of every word in my book--and that person said "He says in his book that he only paid for the Toaster Strudels."

And when that person was asked where the book said this, the person replied "In the chapter where it says he paid for the Toaster Strudels."

What would you think of this person's reading skills? Or honesty?


1. The Bible is a book that says, in one chapter, that Christ shed His blood for the church.
2. And in another chapter it says that He died for everyone--for the whole world, for all, etc.
3.NOWHERE does it say that He paid the price for the sins of the elect ONLY. IT. NEVER. SAYS. THAT.

So, putting those three facts together, is it correct to conclude that the Bible teaches that Jesus atoned for the sins of ONLY THE CHURCH?

Jeff, it is God's will that all men would be saved, but men are fallen and rebellious. They turn away from the road which the Lord has provided, the narrow road, and go onto the broad path of rebellion, of arrogance, or works. Jesus said there will be "few" who will find the narrow road, few! God Who is Omniscient knows our hearts and brings those who "will" to the foot of the cross, the narrow road. I've gone there. There is no other place to go if you want to be saved. Not to a Mormon temple. Not to some cult. Not to Joseph Smith or some priesthood file. You, Jeff, must come to the foot of the cross at Calvary, and look into the face of the Bleeding Savior, and ask Him to save you. There is no other way.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You certainly have a strange view of the atonement. We don't pay for our own sins--Christ has paid for our sins. Do you really believe that you are paying for your own sins?

Oh Billy, Billy, Billy... The item or gift that you received was Salvation in both mine and your's little ****ogy. If I was able to understand your's, why is it you are incapable of understanding mine, seeing as though I never changed anything.
I simply added the fact that when you sin after having been saved through the Water and the Spirit, it's like taking a loan (or being free to sin) and using your salvation (or gift) as collateral for the loan (or gift).

IOW, do you believe in that Calvinist heresy which states that once you are "saved" you can now sin all you want without any consequences to your salvation?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by theway

No.... But you believe you can go out and borrow more money using the item as collateral, all the while believing that either you will not have to pay back the loan, or you believe that your dad will step in and cover your new debt.

Example
1. You have a home loan

2. I pay off your loan then you pay me back instead of the original lender (Simple refinance of a loan)

In this case I didn't pay off your loan because you paid me back instead of the original lender. Rather I simply lent you the money. Applying this example to the atonement--Jesus didn't pay for your sins because he gets paid back by you when you "pay back the loan".

[theway]

Originally Posted by Apologette

Jeff, it is God's will that all men would be saved, but men are fallen and rebellious. They turn away from the road which the Lord has provided, the narrow road, and go onto the broad path of rebellion, of arrogance, or works.

That doesn't make any sense based on your guy's statements that man never was on the path to begin with nor could they even be aware of a path... So how is it that they can turn from a path that they didn't even know existed?
And if by "works" you mean "good works" then please show in the Bible where doing good is considered the wrong path?
Also, the term "narrow road" is a mistranslation which is only used in Evangelical Bibles nowadays.
It is the Gate which is narrow, while the Road is hard, difficult, or straitened which leads to Salvation. It is not a one time alter call.
It appears you are just making things up as you go along again.

Originally Posted by Apologette

Jesus said there will be "few" who will find the narrow road, few! God Who is Omniscient knows our hearts and brings those who "will" to the foot of the cross, the narrow road.

You are contradicting yourself again CA; first you say that man must find the path or narrow Gate, and then in the same sentence you say it is God which puts them on the path.

Originally Posted by Apologette

I've gone there. There is no other place to go if you want to be saved. Not to a Mormon temple. Not to some cult. Not to Joseph Smith oMr some priesthood file. You, Jeff, must come to the foot of the cross at Calvary, and look into the face of the Bleeding Savior, and ask Him to save you. There is no other way.

I ***ume that since you are using actual physical places and people to discribe the LDS experience, then you must mean that in the "Christian" expieriance that you have to go to an actual cross, at a place in Israel, and look into a bloody face, and then verbally ask him to save you???
You always want to have it both ways CA, no matter how silly it makes you look.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Example
1. You have a home loan

2. I pay off your loan then you pay me back instead of the original lender (Simple refinance of a loan)

In this case I didn't pay off your loan because you paid me back instead of the original lender. Rather I simply lent you the money. Applying this example to the atonement--Jesus didn't pay for your sins because he gets paid back by you when you "pay back the loan".

No Billy... You keep leaving off the end part because it doesn't work with Evangelical/Cheap grace theology.

OK, can we both agree that God pays off our loan and makes us free and clear from any debt.
Good...
Now my question was what happens when you get back into debt?
Do you use your home or salvation as collateral for the new loan? If so, are you then expecting God to simply cover that loan as well?
Or do you believe you can simply borrow the money or sin with the intention of never having to pay the price or consequences for it, or that the new loan will never come due?

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by theway

That doesn't make any sense based on your guy's statements that man never was on the path to begin with nor could they even be aware of a path... So how is it that they can turn from a path that they didn't even know existed?
And if by "works" you mean "good works" then please show in the Bible where doing good is considered the wrong path?
Also, the term "narrow road" is a mistranslation which is only used in Evangelical Bibles nowadays.
It is the Gate which is narrow, while the Road is hard, difficult, or straitened which leads to Salvation. It is not a one time alter call.
It appears you are just making things up as you go along again.


You are contradicting yourself again CA; first you say that man must find the path or narrow Gate, and then in the same sentence you say it is God which puts them on the path.
I ***ume that since you are using actual physical places and people to discribe the LDS experience, then you must mean that in the "Christian" expieriance that you have to go to an actual cross, at a place in Israel, and look into a bloody face, and then verbally ask him to save you???
You always want to have it both ways CA, no matter how silly it makes you look.

So why did you get suspended from CARM? It's what the Bible teaches, fellow. Like it or lump it, there is only ONE way and it isn't through the LDS cult.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by theway

OK, can we both agree that God pays off our loan and makes us free and clear from any debt.

But that is not what you said in your prior post.

Originally Posted by theway

No.... But you believe you can go out and borrow more money using the item as collateral, all the while believing that either you will not have to pay back the loan, or you believe that your dad will step in and cover your new debt.

Let's go through this again.

1. You owe money for a loan
2. I lend you money (i.e. you are still in debt--but to a new lender) to pay off the first loan
3. I will get paid back what you owe me so I didn't pay off your loan--you did. I simply loaned you the money.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Apologette

So why did you get suspended from CARM? It's what the Bible teaches, fellow. Like it or lump it, there is only ONE way and it isn't through the LDS cult.

Funny you should ask...
CARM has invented a new way to ban Mormons when they can't think up a real reason to use.
I was banned for being "divisive" with a non Mormon???
In other words I was banned for disagreeing with what a nonMormon said.
I guess Mormons are expected to do nothing but agree completely with their Critics, and then bend over and say "thank you sir, may I have another?"

LOL you have got to love the hypocrisy of it all. You guys create a website or forum whose sole purpose is to cause divisiveness within the LDS church, but you will not tolerate anybody turning around and using the same tactics on you.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

So let's summarize your beliefs, Jim. You believe that:

Human babies are created and born evil, but dove babies, for some strange reason, are not.


So you believe that the Fall didn't affect any of the lower animals but did cause God to create all humans as evil? Or do you believe that it affected some animals but all humans?

Why would God create Baby James Banta evil, but create baby doves as such peaceful creatures that the Holy Spirit became one? Does that really make any sense to you?

Sin makes jim evil. I was conceived born raised and lived in sin just as all men are.. I also believe the Bible that tell us that the whole world lays in sin (1 John 5:19).. The nature of the whole world is based in sin. I thought you would understand that when I made it clear that even your peaceful doves kill. Now you understand.. I believe the Bible and even point out errors you think I believe.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by theway

IOW, do you believe in that Calvinist heresy which states that once you are "saved" you can now sin all you want without any consequences to your salvation?

Salvation is by faith and NOT by works. You believe that in addition to your faith your works are the basis of your salvation/exaltation. This is a works based salvation.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Salvation is by faith and NOT by works. You believe that in addition to your faith your works are the basis of your salvation/exaltation. This is a works based salvation.

Bread is by flour and not by salt. You believe that in addition to flour, a pinch of salt is part of the recipe, and that makes it salt-based bread instead of flour-based bread.

See how little sense that makes?

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Bread is by flour and not by salt. You believe that in addition to flour, a pinch of salt is part of the recipe, and that makes it salt-based bread instead of flour-based bread.

See how little sense that makes?

Ever tried to make a Joseph Smith jr. Sandwich out of saltless bread?
It's made with Bologna! lol

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

See how little sense that makes?

A Mormon can have faith but what determines his final destination is his works. Jeff this is a works based salvation.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

A Mormon can have faith but what determines his final destination is his works. Jeff this is a works based salvation.

A Calvinistic anti-Mormon can be obedient to God, but what determines his final destination is his dead faith. Billy, you have a dead-faith-based salvation, despite your belief that you SHOULD obey God's commandments. The fact that you believe that Faith Alone is sufficient to save you, negates every other ingredient, including Jesus and His atonement and grace and obedience.

That's the kind of logic you have been using, and I just turned it back on yourself so you could see how vapid it is.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

That's the kind of logic you have been using, and I just turned it back on yourself so you could see how vapid it is.

Jeff how about answering my question. Two Mormons are in your ward, both have faith in Christ, yet they go to different places after death. What determines where they end up?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

[B]A Calvinistic anti-Mormon can be obedient to God, but what determines his final destination is his dead faith.

Dead faith = No Faith.

Either a person has faith or he doesn't. A person who has faith will be saved. A person who does no have faith will not be saved. Works do not contribute for salvation.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

The fact that you believe that Faith Alone is sufficient to save you, negates every other ingredient, including Jesus and His atonement and grace and obedience.

Jeff that is another straw man argument. I believe--and other Christians believe--in "Jesus and His atonement and grace and obedience".

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Dead faith = No Faith.

And FAITH ALONE--the BASIS for salvation in your belief system-- = dead faith.

Therefore, you believe in dead faith-based salvation. See how I used your reasoning against you again? It's easy to do. And fun!

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

And FAITH ALONE--the BASIS for salvation in your belief system-- = dead faith.

Therefore, you believe in dead faith-based salvation. See how I used your reasoning against you again? It's easy to do. And fun!

Kinda like my love life at my age, but that's another story. It aint much of a story, but I have faith that one day even though it is dead, see where I am coming from?
Anyways, a dead faith is prevalent to a false faith, there is no hope in that, in the same way as in my; well you know, my golf game.
Having faith in Joseph Smith jr. Is a false ***umption in the work ethic.
Remember a bad day of golf beats a good day of work.
A bad day of faith, beats a good day of working for Joesph Smith jr.

[nrajeffreturns]

Current status of RFH's love life = TMI !!!!

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

And FAITH ALONE--the BASIS for salvation in your belief system-- = dead faith.

"Faith without works is dead". This is contrasting those who have faith and those who do not have faith. Faith is the basis for salvation not works. Those who have faith will be saved. Those who do not have faith will not be saved. Those who have faith will naturally produce works BECAUSE they have faith and are born again/saved. They don't do works in order to be saved. BTW the thief on the cross had faith and was saved despite having no works.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by theway

Why in the world would you think that I believe that God will punish you for sins you have not done?

That's just silly Billy.

Does God punish those who do not place their faith in Him for salvation?

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

A Calvinistic anti-Mormon can be obedient to God, but what determines his final destination is his dead faith. Billy, you have a dead-faith-based salvation, despite your belief that you SHOULD obey God's commandments. The fact that you believe that Faith Alone is sufficient to save you, negates every other ingredient, including Jesus and His atonement and grace and obedience.

Why do you believe Calvinists have a dead faith when they trust in the Biblical (not the Mormon imitation) Christ? Faith unto salvation is in the Christ of Scripture. Faith unto ****ation is faith in a false prophet and his imitation Christ.

That's the kind of logic you have been using, and I just turned it back on yourself so you could see how vapid it is.

Perhaps you should spend less time thinking about how to "get back" at Christians, and more time considering the truth they are trying to share with you.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

And FAITH ALONE--the BASIS for salvation in your belief system-- = dead faith.

Therefore, you believe in dead faith-based salvation. See how I used your reasoning against you again? It's easy to do. And fun!

Dead faith is that which produces no works consistent with Scripture. This would include: false prophecy; following false prophets; having a false deity; believing you are going to be a god someday; disregarding the Word of God and supplanting and replacing it with the false words of men. Billy's faith is full of the types of works one would expect to see in a Christian. Mormonism's works speak for themselves - false doctrines and false prophets.