A "what if" question for critics.

[alanmolstad]

Billy....

I have free time, (and the free will) to post a few thoughts tonight.

John 5:39-40
"You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me,yet you refuse to come to me to have life."

In this verse we see Jesus confirm the idea that people have the ability to choose.
This is dependent on our Human free Will.

If humans did not have Free Will, then Jesus would be unable to say, the people "refused' to come to him and have life.
if we had no free will then the only thing Jesus would be allowed to say is that the people were "unable" to come to him.

refuse = a Free Will choice
unable = a lack of Free Will.

Refuse is correct.
-----------------------------------------------------------

[alanmolstad]

Luke 13:34
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!"

In this verse we again see Jesus confirm the idea that men have Free Wills and are able all on their own to respond to the calling of God.

Jesus makes use of the words "would not" when telling us why the people were not responding correctly to God's call.
The words "would not" tell us that people alone are responsible for both their failure, or success in how they respond to God's call.

would not tells us that jesus believes we have Free Will.
had Jesus believe that people did not have Free Will, then he would have been unable to use the words, "would not"

"Would Not" carries the context of having the ability but refusing to.

This is different than the words "Could not"

Had Jesus said the people "could not" come to him it would have been teaching that the people on their own lacked the ability to choose God.



"would not" = Free will

"could not" = lacks ability and necessary Free Will.


Would not is correct.

[alanmolstad]

So Billy...

We have now looked at two sections of the Bible that clearly teach that man has free will, and that we have the ability to find God free of any interference and needing anything to push us in the direction.

The verses look at this issue from man's POV...

The POV of the verse is key...it helps us stay on-track with any other questions or teachings we may try to draw out for the Text.

The verses are dealing with the universe as seen from the Point of View of a man, looking at himself and the world he lives in.

we have free will.
there is no giant hand reaching down from heaven controling our actions.

we are responsible for the flaws we are guilty of.
We alone are to blame when we fall into sin.
We alone are to blame for not digging our own way out of sin by coming to Christ and finding salvation.

So, Man has free will....case-closed.




But now its time to turn our attention to the other side of this issue, and look at things from the standpoint of God's sovereignty.

[alanmolstad]

John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."

Here we see a verse teaching the clear idea that god does not just sit on the sidelines, but actually takes action independent of the actions of men.

This is supporting the idea taught by Walter martin, that upon entering into the joys of the Kingdom, we look back at the gate and see, the sign written there of "You did not choose me, but I chose you before the foundation of the world"

God's predestination is not based on his first looking into the future and copying down all the names of then people who finally believe, (and thus informing God what people are safe to call).......NO!


Both God's foreknowledge and his predestination are part of His sovereignty!


God does not have to look into the future to see what people end up believing so he knows who to call....that silly line of thinking makes God appear like a kid cheating on a math test by looking in the back of the book to find the answers....LOL



God does not need his foreknowledge to decide who gets predestination.
(please note this James)



Nor does God need his predestination so he can have foreknowledge as to who gets saved in the end...



This is the very heart of God's Sovereignty over His creation!


So to review:
Man has Free Will, and God is Sovereign.

[alanmolstad]

so....Billy...

That above is how you look at this issue and maintain your POV at all times so that you do not get mixed-up.


if a verse is dealing with God's Point Of View, then the lesson you can learn in the verse must be centered around the POV, or you will get mixed up


if a verse is dealing with our human POV, then the lessons you can learn from the verse must always be centered around the idea that the verse is looking at the universe from man's POV...

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."

Draws him and raises him. Is the first "him" and the second "him" the same group of people or different groups of people?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Billy....

I have free time, (and the free will) to post a few thoughts tonight.

Great. Since you have from time why don't we start with the verse in John 6 since you told me that I had the incorrect understanding of this verse and you had the correct view. Here it is again for you.

Originally Posted by Billyray

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.


I welcome your explanation of this section of scripture Alan. Start with this verse and tell me what it means and then we can move on to the surrounding verses.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

So Billy...

We have now looked at two sections of the Bible that clearly teach that man has free will, and that we have the ability to find God free of any interference and needing anything to push us in the direction.

Can a man come to Christ on his own free will without being drawn by the Father?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Draws him and raises him. Is the first "him" and the second "him" the same group of people or different groups of people?

again you dont see how you screw up your own question?.........after all my attempts you still make the same mistakes.....

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

again you dont see how you screw up your own question?.........after all my attempts you still make the same mistakes.....

Alan do you have an answer for me?

Originally Posted by Billyray

Draws him and raises him. Is the first "him" and the second "him" the same group of people or different groups of people?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Can a man come to Christ on his own free will without being drawn by the Father?

once again......you point to my post that is cenertered around the human pov.....and try to learn other pov things.......


cant happen....you only screw yourself up

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Alan do you have an answer for me?

the thing i have shown you is that pov is key...

[alanmolstad]

on phone now....

the wife tells me that my laptop just got so hot that the chip popped off the motherboard.......

[alanmolstad]

wife says she fix tomorrow with glue........

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Can a man come to Christ on his own free will without being drawn by the Father?

lets look at the 2 verses i listed with the human pov.....

jesus tells the people that they "would not " come to him.
does jesus tell them that they lacked something?;; .......NO!

so according to jesus the people of the city already had what they needed to come to him....so they did not need any " push " from God.

this means that from their point of view they were guilty.

if is was true that the only reason the people had not come to god was that god had not drawn them then this would mean they " could not" come to jesus.......not " would not"..

it would also mean god was 100% to blame for theor lack of faith.


so if we are asking " Are the people not going to jesus due to god not first calling them? "...... the answer is no


as understood from the human pov

[alanmolstad]

so......we dont need to sit around and wait for god to call us......

the bible clearly teaches us that jesus believes we have enough to come to him right now......

this is the power of human free will in action.
you can use our free will to seek god and find him right now.....

this is why we have free will.....


but now lets look at the same question and same situation from gods pov.......

" would not" means the people could have...but chose not to.

thats key....


the moment jesus said " would not" he was teaching that the people lacked nothing to believe.

if the people needed anything yet befor they would believe then jesus would have had to admit that the people " could not " beliege until god got off his but and did something first.


" could not" would mean its up to someone else and is not up to us to do by ourselves.

" would not" means we cant blame god for not coming to him in faith.

[alanmolstad]

when we look at the same issue with gods pov....we get a vastly different answer.....as is expected

[alanmolstad]

god is sovereign .....

as such he draws us to himself while we are yet strangers to homed

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Those who choose him, do so of their own will and desire....not because God "tweeked" their will.

Can a person come to Christ on their own free will without being drawn by the Father?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Can a man come to Christ on his own free will without being drawn by the Father?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

lets look at the 2 verses i listed with the human pov.....

jesus tells the people that they "would not " come to him.
does jesus tell them that they lacked something?;; .......NO!

so according to jesus the people of the city already had what they needed to come to him....so they did not need any " push " from God.

this means that from their point of view they were guilty.

if is was true that the only reason the people had not come to god was that god had not drawn them then this would mean they " could not" come to jesus.......not " would not"..

it would also mean god was 100% to blame for theor lack of faith.


so if we are asking " Are the people not going to jesus due to god not first calling them? "...... the answer is no


as understood from the human pov

Alan I don't see a direct answer to my question but it appears that your position is that a person has the free will to come to Christ without being drawn by the Father. Is that what you believe?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Alan I don't see a direct answer to my question but it appears that your position is that a person has the free will to come to Christ without being drawn by the Father. Is that what you believe?

you misquote my views....and you still want me to answer your question?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Alan I don't see a direct answer to my question but it appears that your position is that a person has the free will to come to Christ without being drawn by the Father. Is that what you believe?

see post 379

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

you misquote my views....and you still want me to answer your question?

Originally Posted by Billyray

Alan I don't see a direct answer to my question but it appears that your position is that a person has the free will to come to Christ without being drawn by the Father. Is that what you believe?

you tossed the baby with the bath water.....

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

see post 379

I looked at post 379 and I don't see a direct answer to my question. My question is a very simple and straightforward that requires a simple yes or no to answer.


Can a person come to Christ on their own free will without being drawn by the Father?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Can a person come to Christ on their own free will without being drawn by the Father?

No. But, neither do I believe that God's "drawing" interferes with free will. It simply let's us know that God is there.